Fighter's can't Fly, and you can't melee what you can't reach.

[Skeld]

deuxhero wrote:

Did I tell people using that argument the math is terrible unless you are more Archer than (melee) Fighter?

I do math for a living. I have no desire to do it as a hobby.

-Skeld

[deuxhero]

Josh M. wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

50% of fights.

I love how no one but me has actually looked at the SRD's monsters by CR in all 7 page.

While you're there, you should check out the Magic Item section and see if you can find something that grants flight.

Without wasting your first turn: The hideously expensive Wings of Flight.

[Evil Lincoln]

So what's the issue? Too expensive?

[Josh M.]

deuxhero wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

50% of fights.

I love how no one but me has actually looked at the SRD's monsters by CR in all 7 page.

While you're there, you should check out the Magic Item section and see if you can find something that grants flight.

Without wasting your first turn: The hideously expensive Wings of Flight.

Which would be horrible, if that were the only option.

I give up for now, I'm out of steam and you're clearly going out of your way to make sure you fail, so have at it.

[Adamantine Dragon]

deuxhero wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

50% of fights.

I love how no one but me has actually looked at the SRD's monsters by CR in all 7 page.

While you're there, you should check out the Magic Item section and see if you can find something that grants flight.

Without wasting your first turn: The hideously expensive Wings of Flight.

If flight is so terribly important then how is gaining flight in your first turn wasting a turn? You're the one saying how absolutely necessary it is to have, and then you say that it is wasting a turn to gain it?

Oh, yeah. That means you're not doing teh awesome damage that turn. So it's "wasted".

Just gotta remember who I'm talking to here.

[Evil Lincoln]

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

[Trinam]

If we're fighting CR 7s, the wizard has to waste his first turn regardless.

He doesn't get overland flight until 5th level spells, IIRC.

EDIT: Come to think of it, even at level 10 we're dealing with the loss of a 5th level spell slot, which is kind of a big deal for castys.

Besides, shouldn't we focus more on the SRD's greatest threat: The Dire Corgi?

[GeneticDrift]

Plenty of mundane options for flight like a dire bat, which is only 450 gp or griffon for 8000gp.

Class abilities are not needed to fight fliers.

[Josh M.]

Flight; game-breakingly important, but not important enough to spend a turn activating. Gotcha.

Oh wait, I was supposed to be done. Now I am! *poof*

[Bomanz]

deuxhero wrote:

^ And again: Why the hell do knifes have so much material for them in a game about gunfights?

I wasn't aware facing any of half+ the monsters in the bestiaries was an unlikely scenario

Seriously, everyone seems to insist this is a rare situation. It isn't. Check the bestiary by CR for everything after CR8 then you can come back.

I did. I asked all about the CR 10 Adult White Dragon, and still pose this question...

Since the CR10 Adult White Dragon is a flying creature, and since it makes its home in Icy Mountains (where presumably someone with adequate intelligence could find a boulder or, I dunno, maybe like a crag or small peak to climb to) but the Adult White Dragon CR10 Flying Critter can't cast magic to kill the Useless Non-Bow-Wielding Fighter and he sure as heck can't breathe him to death and he sure as heck can't spell him to death and he doesn't have any other useful death dealing abilities to kill the Useless Fighter, what then is the Adult White Dragon CR10 Flying Uber Monster to do?

Other than Melee, which would allow the fighter to ready an action for when the Dragon gets close enough so that the fighter can actually do something.

Riddle me that, batman.

[Bomanz]

deuxhero wrote:

50% of fights.

I love how no one but me has actually looked at the SRD's monsters by CR in all 7 page.

What are you talking about, I gave you a pretty solid run down of Monsters by CR for CR10.

And you did nothing with it, you have not responded you haven't said squat about how I proved you wrong. Geez, wonder why?

Go play Rifts and do your Mega Damage.

[deuxhero]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

[Xexyz]

Slight aside: How do dedicated fighter archers stack up against archer builds from other classes? Could someone point me to a thread/discussion - if there is one?

[Evil Lincoln]

deuxhero wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

Right. Same is true of weapons, many are ranged.

Nobody needs to fly.

Also, note, flyby attack allows an AoO.

[DeathSpot]

Deuxhero, you've stated (I think; I may be wrong after so many pages) that a melee-focused fighter shouldn't have to spend a significant portion of his WBL in order to take the fight to flying opponents. What do you consider a significant portion? I'd assume that the winged boots, at 16,000 gp, would be too large a fraction of the 10th-level fighter's 62,000 WBL, but would a 750 gp potion of fly? That's only a bit over 1% of his WBL. Given the assumption that 10-15% of a character's WBL is made up of consumables, one may even guess that a fighter might have two, or even three, potions of fly in his backpack. Yes, he's going to need to spend a round consuming the potion, but most 10th-level characters that want to close to melee range with a flying opponent will need to spend a round gaining flight, by whatever means. Also, consider the expected treasure gain from a CR 10 encounter is 5,450 gp, which nets the fighter a profit even if he uses the potion (unless the party has more than 7 PCs).

[Emmit Svenson]

deuxhero wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

While you're there, you should check out the Magic Item section and see if you can find something that grants flight.

Without wasting your first turn: The hideously expensive Wings of Flight.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/broom -of-flying

8,000 gp less expensive than the pearl of power that a caster would need to make up for using a spell slot on Overland Flight.

[Grimmy]

I could be wrong too, but what I thought he was saying was the fighter shouldn't have to spend any portion of WBL to fly. At a certain point while he hones his mastery of swordplay or whatever, he suddenly realizes that he's so good at fighting he can now fly.

No items needed. No help from casters in the party. He just swings a sword so well that he can now fly.

[Mergy]

Don't you remember in Rocky when he finishes climbing all the stairs and then just jumps off and soars into the sunset? Why can't fighters have that?

Spoiler:

Oh wait, that didn't happen.

[Soverayne]

Just take leadership and take a monster cohort.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCohorts.html

Griffon. Cohort level 8.

You use your extra feats for a feat. You can now fly.

Stop crying.

[stringburka]

deuxhero wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

But what about a melee wizard with Int 16 that refuses to spend resources on ranged spells?

[Evil Lincoln]

stringburka wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

But what about a melee wizard with Int 16 that refuses to spend resources on ranged spells?

*snicker*

I see what you did.

[stringburka]

This thread, short version:
- "I wanna make a sucky fighter character!"
- "If you do it like this instead you won't suck..."
- "But I don't want to and I shouldn't have to suck just because I ignore the plethora of options! This is a game flaw!"

Just wait for hirs next thread, on how lying paladins, bards with 12 charisma and druids in full plate suxxxxors...

[Maccabee]

I cant tell if we're arguing over fantasy adventurers in a role playing game or why so and so should/should not be a new member of the Justice League because he cant fly/teleport/read minds/healing factor his way out fo everything.

[Trinam]

So long as he never touches barbarians.

[Emmit Svenson]

Did a spot check of monsters at CR 9.

The OP’s math is way off--there are monsters with flight and monsters who are effective outside melee, but not many monsters with flight who are effective outside melee. Certainly nowhere near 50%!

The percentage goes up as CR does...but the percentage of WBL that buying a permanent, hands-free flight item costs drops too.

[Pirate]

Yar.

You want to know how Fighters can fly as a class ability that takes up none of their actions?

First, you must fight, and slay, gravity.

Fighter: "Gravity was all 'this time I've got you' and I was all, like 'no' and then 'BOOM'"

Thief: "Settle down, you're overstimulated. Red Mage, can you get his juice from the wreckage?"

Fighter: "Don't you understand? With gravity slain, now we can fly!"

Done.

~P

[memorax]

I suggest taking a bow. As for feats unless I know ahead of time that the DM is going to have lots of flying creatures in the camapign Im not wasting bonus feats on ranged feats. Too many other better fighter feats.

[Nicos]

Lets not forget that deuxhero is not only questioning non fliying fighter but basically any buffer party member. it seems like if a bard uses UMD to cast fly on the fighter then the bard is doing wrong.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I'm beginning to suspect this thread is an elaborate ruse.

[deuxhero]

Emmit Svenson wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

While you're there, you should check out the Magic Item section and see if you can find something that grants flight.

Without wasting your first turn: The hideously expensive Wings of Flight.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/broom -of-flying

8,000 gp less expensive than the pearl of power that a caster would need to make up for using a spell slot on Overland Flight.

Not only are you too heavy, funnily enough, the broom doesn't actually have rules for riding it, just what it can lift, so being able to hold on hands free is not an area all that supported by the rules.

Actually, the broom is a mess of writing in general, due to the broom, not you, having a fly speed. If it got errata, it could be usable, but as written, it's useless for anyone.

And just where the hell is the fighter getting this for half price?

Nicos wrote:

Lets not forget that deuxhero is not only questioning non fliying fighter but basically any buffer party member. it seems like if a bard uses UMD to cast fly on the fighter then the bard is doing wrong.

More so questioning why you all seem to assume the fighter is the only ally of this buffer party member.

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Did a spot check of monsters at CR 9.

The OP’s math is way off--there are monsters with flight and monsters who are effective outside melee, but not many monsters with flight who are effective outside melee. Certainly nowhere near 50%!

The percentage goes up as CR does...but the percentage of WBL that buying a permanent, hands-free flight item costs drops too.

I'd love to know your critera for "effective outside mele". Also how many of them have OTHER special movement modes the fighter ALSO can't counter?

Trinam wrote:

So long as he never touches barbarians.

Barbarian can fly without wasting anything but a swift action. It's rage intense flight with some terrible requirements, but fly they can, but it is better than a fighter.

[Fake Healer]

Guess D has it right and everyone else is imbeciles....he has told all of you repeatedly that his argument is right and yours are all wrong. Why won't you all get....he has defended his position while sailing through the sea of logic and reason that you all have placed before him to try to get him to assimilate into the collective of reasonable thinkers.
He is the winner. His repeated defenses have proven that he dwells beyond your puny logic.
He is the true winner. Accept it.

[deuxhero]

stringburka wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

But what about a melee wizard with Int 16 that refuses to spend resources on ranged spells?

And the fighter should obviously be using arrows in melee...

The Wizard is ranged by DEFAULT. Melee touch attacks are the exception, not the norm. There also isn't writing in the books telling anyone a straight Wizard should be a melee combatant, for the Fighter? Yeah, there is a HELL of a lot.

When a Barbarian, Ranger, Magus, Summoner (Both normal and Synthesist), Eldritch Knight, Paladin (with Forbidden Knowledge), Druid and Cleric are flat out better melee combatants due to being able to engage in melee, there is a problem with your Fighting Man class.

[AM BARBARIAN]

BARBARIAN QUITE FAMILIAR WITH BARBARIAN CLASS FLIGHT OPTION. BARBARIAN GO SO FAR AS TO SAY ANY BARBARIAN AM GETTING IN-CLASS FLIGHT OPTION AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN. BARBARIAN THAT AM GOOD BARBARIAN RAGE-CYCLE, SUDDENLY FALLING AFTER SPELL SUNDER CASTY SPELL AM NOT PROPER WAY TO BARBARIAN.

IF ARGUMENT FOR BARBARIAN BEING BETTER THAN FIGHTY BASED ON BARBARIAN HAVE ACCESS TO CRAPPY FLYING RAGE POWER, THEN BARBARIAN AGREE WITH SENTIMENT BUT QUESTION SYSTEM MASTURY OF TALKY PERSON.

BARBARIAN CORDIALLY REQUEST TALKY PERSON RECONSIDER ARGUMENT, AS AM BAD ONE.

[William Senn]

I'm feeling bored and a bit contrary, so I'm going to go through the monsters by CR for Bestiary 1 (since there is no monster by CR chart on the prd for the other two and I'm too lazy to do this without hyperlinks/bookmarks), starting at CR7, and find the proportion of monsters with flying and ranged attacks.

CR7:
aboleth, air elemental (huge), black dragon (young), black pudding, brass dragon (young), bulette, chimera, chuul, dire bear, dracolisk, drider, earth elemental (huge), elasmosaurus, elephant, fire elemental (huge), flesh golem, ghost, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, lillend, medusa, nymph, remorhaz, shadow demon, shaitan, spectre, stegosaurus, succubus, water elemental (huge)

30 creatures, 11 fliers. Of the 11 fliers, 7 1/2 (air elementals, dracolisks, non-ranged-class ghosts, invisible stalkers, lillends (with default gear), shadow demons, spectres, and succubi) aren't long-term threats outside of melee, having at best limited-use ranged options (or gazes with no other ranged options, which just means you look away until it attacks you in melee). 3.5/30 = 11.67% fliers that a solo Fighter without a ranged weapon will have trouble attacking.

CR8:
behir, copper dragon (young), dark naga, dire tiger, efreeti, erinyes, giant octopus, giant slug, gorgon, greater shadow, green dragon (young), intellect devourer, mohrg, nabasu, ogre mage, sphinx, stone giant, treant, triceratops

19 creatures, 8 fliers. Of the 8 fliers, 4 (greater shadow, nabasu, ogre mage, and sphinx) have to mix it up in melee at some point. 4/19 = 21.05%.

CR9:
air elemental (greater), blue dragon (young), bone devil, bronze dragon (young), dire crocodile, dire shark, dragon turtle, earth elemental (greater), fire elemental (greater), frost giant, giant squid, marid, mastodon, nessian warhound, night hag, roc, spirit naga, tyrannosaurus, vampire, vrock, water elemental (greater)

21 creatures, 7 fliers. Of those 7, 1 doesn't even always fly (vampires) and 4.75 (air elementals, bone devils, rocs, non-ranged-base but still flier-base vampires, and vrocks) need to attack in melee. 2.25/21 = 10.71%.

CR10:
bebilith, brachiosaurus, clay golem, couatl, fire giant, giant flytrap, guardian naga, rakshasa, red dragon (young), silver dragon (young), white dragon (adult)

11 creatures, 4 fliers. Of those 4, 1 (couatl) has to melee. 3/11 = 27.27%.

CR11:
air elemental (elder), barbed devil, black dragon (adult), brass dragon (adult), cauchemar, cloud giant, devourer, earth elemental (elder), fire elemental (elder), gold dragon (young), hezrou, retriever, stone golem, water elemental (elder)

14 creatures, 6 fliers. Of those 6, 2 (air elemental, cauchemar) have to melee. 4/14 = 28.57%.

CR12:
copper dragon (adult), green dragon (adult), lich, purple worm, roper, sea serpent

6 creatures, 2.5 fliers (liches generally can't fly innately and non-arcane liches generally won't have an all-day combat flight spell). All 2.5 of them are suitably deadly at range, however. 2.5/6 = 41.67%.

CR13:
blue dragon (adult), bronze dragon (adult), froghemoth, ghaele, glabrezu, ice devil, iron golem, storm giant

8 creatures, 4 fliers (levitate doesn't allow lateral movement, so storm giants are out as you can just move out of their range). All 4 are non-melee threats. 4/8 = 50%, finally.

CR14:
astral deva, crag linnorm, nalfeshnee, red dragon (adult), silver dragon (adult), trumpet archon

6 creatures, all 6 fly. However, 2 of them (astral deva and trumpet archon) can't really do anything to you at range. 4/6 = 66.67%.

CR15:
gold dragon (adult), neothelid, phoenix, white dragon (ancient)

4 creatures, all fliers. However, the phoenix really isn't a serious threat at range. 3/4 = 75%.

CR 16:
black dragon (ancient), brass dragon (ancient), horned devil, planetar

4 creatures, all fliers. Horned devils aren't big threats at range. 3/4 = 75%.

CR 17:
copper dragon (ancient), green dragon (ancient), ice linnorm, marilith

4 creatures, all fliers. Default mariliths are no threat at range. 3/4 = 75%.

CR18:
blue dragon (ancient), bronze dragon (ancient), kraken

3 creatures, 2 fliers, both fliers are ranged threats. 2/3 = 66.67%.

CR19:
red dragon (ancient), shoggoth, silver dragon (ancient)

3 creatures, 2 fliers, both fliers are ranged threats. 2/3 = 66.67%.

CR20:
balor, gold dragon (ancient), pit fiend, tarn linnorm

4 creatures, all fliers. Balors actually can't do much at range. 3/4 = 75%.

CR>20:
solar, tarrasque

2 creatures, 1 flier, said flier is a ranged beast. 50%.

-----------

Conclusions I draw from that? Dragons are bad for stupid Fighters that don't have any ranged options, friends who can make them fly, or money spent on ways to fly. If we remove dragons from the equation, there's very little that can actually kill the Fighter without engaging him in melee.

EDIT: Also, a huge portion of the fliers are good dragons and good outsiders, which are very rare to encounter as enemies unless you're playing an evil game, which is outside the default assumptions of the system.

[Shifty]

I have never seen a poster so in the wrong as the OP.

Truly amazing that he can maintain such a position when it is clearly so wrong.

[stringburka]

deuxhero wrote:

stringburka wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Wizard's gotta waste his first turn too, if he wants decent maneuverability.

Which means nothing when maneuverability means very little anymore and you have skill points to max fly

Most spells are also ranged, so the Wizard doesn't even need fly.

But what about a melee wizard with Int 16 that refuses to spend resources on ranged spells?

And the fighter should obviously be using arrows in melee...

The Wizard is ranged by DEFAULT. Melee touch attacks are the exception, not the norm. There also isn't writing in the books telling anyone a straight Wizard should be a melee combatant, for the Fighter? Yeah, there is a HELL of a lot.

When a Barbarian, Ranger, Magus, Summoner (Both normal and Synthesist), Eldritch Knight, Paladin (with Forbidden Knowledge), Druid and Cleric are flat out better melee combatants due to being able to engage in melee, there is a problem with your Fighting Man class.

Nothing in the book says a wizard is ranged by default. In fact, a first-level core wizard has more spells enhancing melee/short-range capabilities or damaging in melee than enhancing ranged capabilities or damaging on range.

And nothing in the book says a fighter is melee by default. Have you noticed what the iconic fighter is carrying on it's back?

Also, comparing the classes in a vacuum no classes can fly because you need to depend on a race and feats to get to level 4 where the first flyers appear.

[Mergy]

William Senn wrote:

Concentrated Awesome.

You know he's going to come back and say that most encounters involve fighting dragons, right?

[AvalonXQ]

So, based on William Senn's analysis, all fighters should actually carry a dragonbane bow.

[Zarathos]

This is a entertaining thread because it is so obviously stupid, kinda like watching Monty Python. I believe William Senn's analysis should close the book on this thread.

[William Senn]

AvalonXQ wrote:

So, based on William Senn's analysis, all fighters should actually carry a dragonbane bow.

Ehh, that's assuming that every creature of a given CR is an equally common encounter, which is a seriously flawed assumption (even if it is the assumption I went with for my analysis). In actual play, dragons are going to be pretty rare. I'd say an evil outsider bane bow would be more useful, because they're summonable and fairly common as foot soldiers as you go up in levels. Dragons aren't really summonable until you get to gate, and tend to be either the final boss or one of the final boss's primary agents, so don't get encountered without warning.

[doc the grey]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

Wait, Pathfinder is a game where you are supposed to be deadweight for your team and or die horribly and repeatedly?

And no, the game is marketed and designed as high fantasy, you ARE supposed to be a superhero, not some guy who can't be told appart from an average bobby.

You are correct. Pathfinder without modification is a fantasy superhero team game.

And in many superhero teams, there is one guy with no supernatural powers.

Sometimes it's Hawkeye and everyone thinks he's lame. Sometimes it's Batman.

In any case, if you think the Fighter is so flawed, do not play the fighter. Not every class has to adhere to your sense of equality.

Evil, this plays right into deuxhero's hands. The comparison you are making is, imho, not accurate. Fighters in Pathfinder are not Batman. They are more like Iron Man. They have magical weapons and armor which boost their "mundane" abilities exponentially. Plus they have feats and class features which go far beyond human capacity to perform. Not to mention they can fall from orbit and shake it off.

So even the "mundane" fighters in Pathfinder are far, far more powerful than a "mundane superhero." But, they can't fly without adding the "rocket boots" feature to their superhero armor, which is what DH is whining about.

Dammit now I have to build a full plate fighter with "rocket boots of flight", or should he be a gun tank?

[Scooter Libby]

Oh, the horror. The horror.

[Bloodred]

deuxhero wrote:

^ + ^^

Too bad "the situation" is "half the enemies".

Grimmy wrote:

Deuxhero.

What do you propose?

Because I don't want to put words in your mouth but the impression I'm getting is that you feel extensive martial training should eventually lead to the ability to fly.

Is this correct?

Honestly: In a world where it lets you survive reentry? I don't have a problem with it. Especially not in a system where flying enemies are common (It would be more acceptable in say... Legend, where "flying" in a defense buff and not "You just simply can't hit me")

I have NEVER been a fan of "mundane fighter" as a class concept in a high fantasy game.

Guy empowered by the force of righteousness itself? Good.
Guy who gets so angry he can rip a man in two? Good.
Wizard who isn't quite as good at Wizardry as most in exchange for knowing how to use a weapon? Good.
Guy so skilled at meditation and self disipline he can pull off stunts that defy physics? Good (in fluff anyways).
Guy who literally has no special fighting ability greater than an average guard except knowing a few more tricks and hitting slightly harder? Why does this exist?

(Seriously, there is literally no observable ability for someone in universe to tell a Fighter from an NPC class.)

At the very minimum, the magic items you need shouldn't be a huge chunk of your WBL

This ain't Dragonball Z...

[Nicos]

deuxhero wrote:

Nicos wrote:

Lets not forget that deuxhero is not only questioning non fliying fighter but basically any buffer party member. it seems like if a bard uses UMD to cast fly on the fighter then the bard is doing wrong.

More so questioning why you all seem to assume the fighter is the only ally of this buffer party member.

If everyone else i flying i see no point in not casting flyon the fighter, the bard can already buff the rest of the party with a move action.

[LazarX]

deuxhero wrote:

So flaws exist and should not be changed because it is a flawed system?

Okay, tune ti lay it out on the table or pack your cards and go home.

What is it that you feel that so desperately needs to be added to the fighter class so that by your standards it does not "suck"?

No polemics, no arguments, just put it down right now on the table what you would have the Paizo crew do.

Or if you'd rather continue whining, just ignore this post.

[Bloodred]

I still remember my low level Barb coming up against a manticore with my party. I threw a few javelins and stood screaming at the damn thing. You aren't always going to be the best at everything, but if you really want versatility, take a different class and leave this one to the people who like a challenge in their game.

[Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll]

Hurg. Obvious should exist new Fighter-only feat to negates foe's flight, similar to Disruptive and Teleport Tactician.

Name it Enormous Sucking Net or something like that.

[deuxhero]

^^ I never said you should be best at everything, I said you should be (one of) the best in your specialty (or at least not be one of the few classes without an ability needed to use the specialty the system implies is an option for you). Big difference

^ Honestly, an ability to force thing to land would be pretty useful for a Fighter. Not as good as real flight, but usable.

@William Senn
You missed a few. Don't just check the movement options, a few have their method of flight outside of that space (The Boruta for example). Also didn't note burrowers and swimers that are even worse for fighters.

LazarX wrote:

deuxhero wrote:

So flaws exist and should not be changed because it is a flawed system?

Okay, tune ti lay it out on the table or pack your cards and go home.

What is it that you feel that so desperately needs to be added to the fighter class so that by your standards it does not "suck"?

No polemics, no arguments, just put it down right now on the table what you would have the Paizo crew do.

Or if you'd rather continue whining, just ignore this post.

Someway to actually melee foes as a melee specialist without wasting your actions (stoping you from meleeing things). That was layed out at the very start.

[wraithstrike]

I have not looked at any post since the 2nd page, but I did notice the page count on this one. He won't admit he is wrong. Even if you come up with a way to not use resources to get flight he will then say well fighters can't fight creatures underground. If he is this insistent that not being able to fight an aerial creature with 100% efficiency makes you bad at melee he will only move the goalpost again. If you find a way to burrow he will say fighters can't deal with swarms that are immune to weapon damage. In short no matter what you say there will always be an excuse.

As you can see he handwaved leadership, and a one round delay makes you bad at melee also by his standards, yet he could not say how it was an issue in an actual game which is all that matters. He lost the argument with leadership back on page 2. If his lack of gaming knowledge is so bad that he can't deal with aerial opponents then that just show his lack of ability as a player.

Carry on folks. I was just providing perspective.

[deuxhero]

^A fight is over in 3 rounds. At best you cut 1/3rd of your damage (in reality much worse due to full attacks),

Being able to fix a problem using either the cohort OR followers half on its own could be the single most broken feat in EITHER 3.5 or PF short of Epic Magic (and Leadership gives you both) says absolutely nothing. I can play a commoner with a Wizard cohort, but that doesn't make the Commoner a good class.

Bloodred wrote:

This ain't Dragonball Z...

Oh joy, the "Fighters have nice things=Anime" argument.