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Any temporary bonus to an ability that last for 24 hours is considered permenant for the purposes of qualifing for feats. As long as you stay in Syth form for 24 hours (not that hard) you can qualify for feats. I will have to look up the post, but this is an intended quality of Synthesist. There have been several post by the Devs that have stated that Sythesist can qualify for feats as long as they meet the requirements while merged. The only exception is that he is only able to use the feat while he had the prereq ability score he needed to take the feat (so only while merged in most cases).Pathfinder elves need to sleep. They're just immune to magic sleep.
I could see synthesist being able to use the eidolon's scores to qualify for feats if it was always active. The problem is that the Eidolon is NOT always up. You shouldn't be able to use temporary boosts to your ability scores to qualify for feats. If you're not boosting it with a belt/headband/Tome/Wish/level point then you shouldn't get the temp bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats.
I understand that the devs have said that the bonuses qualify for feats, I'm just saying I don't understand their ruling.
My issue is that you're NOT in Synth form for 24 hours.
You are in synth form for anywhere between 16-22 hours, depending on if you have a ring of sustenance. In that time, the ability score bonuses reset to the summoner's.
Likewise, even if you did stay up, at some point, you have to sleep and at that point, you lose the bonus. At which point, the next morning you get your eidolon back and the 24hr clock starts again.
That's my issue. A belt of str you ALWAYS wear. It's on all the time, so you never have to worry about not having the str bonus.
I mean, I understand that the Devs have said you can do this. I just don't know where in the rules they are getting this from, other than they're the Devs and can make fiat rules.
To which I again reply:
All this hours-per-sleep-per-day business aside, what is it that doesn't make sense to you about a class being able to qualify for a feat that they are using when in a form that qualifies for it (a form that is indeed the BASIS for their class abilities and that they spend most of their adventuring career in), while being unable to use they same feat when not in said form?
I guess I'm just curious. Are you just really that big of a stickler for the 24-hour RAW rule despite developer clarification? I mean, that's OK, but what's inherently game-breaking to you about a character choosing a feat they can't use without the form that qualifies for it?
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Because you are removing a weakness from a class that everyone already seems to say is overpowered.
If it wasn't for the Developer clarification, Synthesist couldn't dump strength and still get Power Attack.
Power Attack is HUGE for any melee class.
I think that's a major penalty for a class to be unable to qualify for such a hallmark feat, and yet it seems like the Synthesist gets it by Dev Fiat, and I just don't see a good reason for the fiat rule.
I understand that the devs have said that the bonuses qualify for feats, I'm just saying I don't understand their ruling.
My issue is that you're NOT in Synth form for 24 hours.
You are in synth form for anywhere between 16-22 hours, depending on if you have a ring of sustenance. In that time, the ability score bonuses reset to the summoner's.
Likewise, even if you did stay up, at some point, you have to sleep and at that point, you lose the bonus. At which point, the next morning you get your eidolon back and the 24hr clock starts again.
That's my issue. A belt of str you ALWAYS wear. It's on all the time, so you never have to worry about not having the str bonus.
I mean, I understand that the Devs have said you can do this. I just don't know where in the rules they are getting this from, other than they're the Devs and can make fiat rules.
Well, with a Wand of Lesser Restoration, UMD, and no wish to replenish spells, a Synthesist could technically never sleep.
For the "at some point, you have to sleep, you lose the bonus", do you have characters lose use of their feats (that they need the bonus to qualify for) or access to spells for casters for 24 hours any time they swap their +2 belt for a better one? If they are upgrading their belt and adding an effect to it, do they lose access to the feats until 24 hours post upgrade complete (assuming they are not wearing it while the enchanting is happening).
I think if you are going to have a summoner with enough strength to take power attack, you are better off using your eidolon as a mount than being a Synthesist. I really don't see it as that unbalancing unless the player is really cheesing it (has a Str of 1 because they dumped it and are venerable), at which point the issue is not "you need X to qualify" but "you need to stop the cheese". Plus they are taking a feat that they can't use immediately after waking up, or wandering around in town (the eidolon powersuit probably would unnerve the townsfolk).
Also, the fact that PCs are always wearing a belt kind of amuses me when I think about it. Either we are all consciously not having our characters bathe ever, or all enchanted items are inherently water/soap-proof to allow for bathing in them. The locker room at the local guildhall is full of men wandering around wearing only belts and headbands because they don't want to lose their bonuses.
I understand that the devs have said that the bonuses qualify for feats, I'm just saying I don't understand their ruling.
My issue is that you're NOT in Synth form for 24 hours.
You are in synth form for anywhere between 16-22 hours, depending on if you have a ring of sustenance. In that time, the ability score bonuses reset to the summoner's.
Likewise, even if you did stay up, at some point, you have to sleep and at that point, you lose the bonus. At which point, the next morning you get your eidolon back and the 24hr clock starts again.
By that reasoning, no one can get Ranks in Fly as you can't fly for 24 hours with Fly spell or Wildshape.
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Pathfinder elves need to sleep. They're just immune to magic sleep.
I could see synthesist being able to use the eidolon's scores to qualify for feats if it was always active. The problem is that the Eidolon is NOT always up. You shouldn't be able to use temporary boosts to your ability scores to qualify for feats. If you're not boosting it with a belt/headband/Tome/Wish/level point then you shouldn't get the temp bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats.
actually to doesn't state that any race needs to sleep only "rest is required".
Just wanted to point out that the synthesist build further up in this thread isn't technically legal. Ancestral Arms makes you proficient with your family's unique weapon, not all weapons of that type. You'd still need Exotic Weapon proficiency to make it work.
Anecdote: The only way I've ever seen a summoner break the game is through a crazy number of actions via summoning with a player who doesn't know how to speed up his turn. Other than that... never had a problem. That crazy AC/Saves doesn't mean a thing when the standard characters aren't getting hit anyways. >_>
Edit: Oh, and whoever made that slight against the Bard? YOU'RE WELCOME FOR THAT +5 TO YOUR ATTACK AND DAMAGE ROLLS ON THAT POUNCE. At least the fighters/barbarians/rangers/rogues/ EVERYONE is grateful for my buffs, unlike those selfish summoners who think they're one-man armies.
Ummm.. Am I reading this wrong? (from the PRD):
Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.Also, regarding whether your stat from synth qualifies you for feats... I beleive techinically it is how it works, but I personally rule that it doesn't just because I think that is kind of cheap. The build I posted earlier would be easy enough to adapt to my house rules.
actually to doesn't state that any race needs to sleep only "rest is required".
The ARG states humanoids eat, breath and sleep. Elves are humanoids with the elf subtype.
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Well, with a Wand of Lesser Restoration, UMD, and no wish to replenish spells, a Synthesist could technically never sleep.
Fair nuff, but I would definately make you track that stuff in a game I run.
For the "at some point, you have to sleep, you lose the bonus", do you have characters lose use of their feats (that they need the bonus to qualify for) or access to spells for casters for 24 hours any time they swap their +2 belt for a better one? If they are upgrading their belt and adding an effect to it, do they lose access to the feats until 24 hours post upgrade complete (assuming they are not wearing it while the enchanting is happening).
In my game, if someone changes a belt/headband and they need it to qualify for a feat, they lose access to the feat/spell slots for 24 hours. Once they put the item on for 24 hours, they get them back. It's rarely an issue.
The difference here is not losing qualifications for a feat, but getting the qualification in the first place. I'm not trying to jumble things up here and it's clear that the devs are against me, it just seems weird to me that they can do this.
It just doesn't seem fair to me that a Barbarian or Fighter has to have a 13 strength to take power attack, while a summoner can dump Str to Seven and still qualify for power attack AND have a strength score comparable to the Barbarian/Fighter.
I'm not saying it by itself is not game breaking, but you gotta admit it's certainly unfair.
I think if you are going to have a summoner with enough strength to take power attack, you are better off using your eidolon as a mount than being a Synthesist. I really don't see it as that unbalancing unless the player is really cheesing it (has a Str of 1 because they dumped it and are venerable), at which point the issue is not "you need X to qualify" but "you need to stop the cheese". Plus they are taking a feat that they can't use immediately after waking up, or wandering around in town (the eidolon powersuit probably would unnerve the townsfolk)....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought dumping a stat below 7 was against the rules.
For the "at some point, you have to sleep, you lose the bonus", do you have characters lose use of their feats (that they need the bonus to qualify for) or access to spells for casters for 24 hours any time they swap their +2 belt for a better one? If they are upgrading their belt and adding an effect to it, do they lose access to the feats until 24 hours post upgrade complete (assuming they are not wearing it while the enchanting is happening).In my game, if someone changes a belt/headband and they need it to qualify for a feat, they lose access to the feat/spell slots for 24 hours. Once they put the item on for 24 hours, they get them back. It's rarely an issue.
The difference here is not losing qualifications for a feat, but getting the qualification in the first place. I'm not trying to jumble things up here and it's clear that the devs are against me, it just seems weird to me that they can do this.
It just doesn't seem fair to me that a Barbarian or Fighter has to have a 13 strength to take power attack, while a summoner can dump Str to Seven and still qualify for power attack AND have a strength score comparable to the Barbarian/Fighter.
I'm not saying it by itself is not game breaking, but you gotta admit it's certainly unfair.
Fair viewpoint, especially since you are treating people equally with regards to stat boosting items (a previous GM of mine didn't track that). Personally, I think what the Synthesist sacrifices by not having a separate eidolon getting power attack for them and all the action economy they lose in order to make themselves a melee character, being able to qualify for feats like Power Attack using their eidolon's stats is fine. As long as they aren't being really cheesey about it.
I think if you are going to have a summoner with enough strength to take power attack, you are better off using your eidolon as a mount than being a Synthesist. I really don't see it as that unbalancing unless the player is really cheesing it (has a Str of 1 because they dumped it and are venerable), at which point the issue is not "you need X to qualify" but "you need to stop the cheese". Plus they are taking a feat that they can't use immediately after waking up, or wandering around in town (the eidolon powersuit probably would unnerve the townsfolk).Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought dumping a stat below 7 was against the rules.
It is, but if you are really cheesey, you can be venerable aged to get -6 to physical stats and +3 to mental stats. After dumping Str to 7, this puts you at 1. Don't know if advanced age categories is PFS legal, and it would not be allowed at the table of any reasonable GM, but it is theoretically possible.
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Fair viewpoint, especially since you are treating people equally with regards to stat boosting items (a previous GM of mine didn't track that). Personally, I think what the Synthesist sacrifices by not having a separate eidolon getting power attack for them and all the action economy they lose in order to make themselves a melee character, being able to qualify for feats like Power Attack using their eidolon's stats is fine. As long as they aren't being really cheesey about it.For the "at some point, you have to sleep, you lose the bonus", do you have characters lose use of their feats (that they need the bonus to qualify for) or access to spells for casters for 24 hours any time they swap their +2 belt for a better one? If they are upgrading their belt and adding an effect to it, do they lose access to the feats until 24 hours post upgrade complete (assuming they are not wearing it while the enchanting is happening).In my game, if someone changes a belt/headband and they need it to qualify for a feat, they lose access to the feat/spell slots for 24 hours. Once they put the item on for 24 hours, they get them back. It's rarely an issue.
The difference here is not losing qualifications for a feat, but getting the qualification in the first place. I'm not trying to jumble things up here and it's clear that the devs are against me, it just seems weird to me that they can do this.
It just doesn't seem fair to me that a Barbarian or Fighter has to have a 13 strength to take power attack, while a summoner can dump Str to Seven and still qualify for power attack AND have a strength score comparable to the Barbarian/Fighter.
I'm not saying it by itself is not game breaking, but you gotta admit it's certainly unfair.
My Fear is this: How does the class work to marginalize other classes, and thus, is it fair to them?
Take for example:
A Max level synthesist is going to have:
Str: 54 Minimum (16 Base, +8 Bonus, +3 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Belt, +16 Size)
Dex: 21 (12 Base, +8 Bonus, +5 Inherent, -4 Size)
Con: 32 (13 Base, +5 Inherent, +6 Belt, +8 Size)
There is just no way a fighter or barbarian can hope to compete with those stats.
Then add 7 natural attacks a round, and if you are smart, reach 20-25 feet, dealing somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4d6 + STR damage + Power Attack
...I think if you are going to have a summoner with enough strength to take power attack, you are better off using your eidolon as a mount than being a Synthesist. I really don't see it as that
Ah, I always forget about that, we ban creating characters with age bonuses in all my games for exactly that reason.
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Ummm.. Am I reading this wrong? (from the PRD):
Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
Oh, my bad. I thought it was the trait, not the half-elf thing. XD
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It is, but if you are really cheesey, you can be venerable aged to get -6 to physical stats and +3 to mental stats. After dumping Str to 7, this puts you at 1. Don't know if advanced age categories is PFS legal, and it would not be allowed at the table of any reasonable GM, but it is theoretically possible.
Using the adjusted stats for ageing is not legal in PFS so if you make a 80 year old grandpa he's as spry as sixteen year old which is fun in its own way =]!
Fair viewpoint, especially since you are treating people equally with regards to stat boosting items (a previous GM of mine didn't track that). Personally, I think what the Synthesist sacrifices by not having a separate eidolon getting power attack for them and all the action economy they lose in order to make themselves a melee character, being able to qualify for feats like Power Attack using their eidolon's stats is fine. As long as they aren't being really cheesey about it.For the "at some point, you have to sleep, you lose the bonus", do you have characters lose use of their feats (that they need the bonus to qualify for) or access to spells for casters for 24 hours any time they swap their +2 belt for a better one? If they are upgrading their belt and adding an effect to it, do they lose access to the feats until 24 hours post upgrade complete (assuming they are not wearing it while the enchanting is happening).In my game, if someone changes a belt/headband and they need it to qualify for a feat, they lose access to the feat/spell slots for 24 hours. Once they put the item on for 24 hours, they get them back. It's rarely an issue.
The difference here is not losing qualifications for a feat, but getting the qualification in the first place. I'm not trying to jumble things up here and it's clear that the devs are against me, it just seems weird to me that they can do this.
It just doesn't seem fair to me that a Barbarian or Fighter has to have a 13 strength to take power attack, while a summoner can dump Str to Seven and still qualify for power attack AND have a strength score comparable to the Barbarian/Fighter.
I'm not saying it by itself is not game breaking, but you gotta admit it's certainly unfair.
My Fear is this: How does the class work to marginalize other classes, and thus, is it fair to them?
Take for example:
A Max level synthesist is going to have:
Str: 54 Minimum (16 Base, +8 Bonus,...
Understandable concerns, and I am not sure there is an appropriate response, except that with regards to the direct damage portion, the Summoner gets that anyway. The question is really a matter of if the added tankiness of the summoner himself and the improved will saves of the eidolon enough to outweigh the change in action economy. Unfortunately, I haven't really spent time considering the high-level play, so I do share your worries.
I also agree the age adjustments is silly. I allow the Middle Aged step in my games, but they do have the potential to really screw up the point buy system. I did stat up a venerable Synthesist who depended on his eidolon to survive (only 1 Con) once. The stats he ended up with I believe had an equivalent point cost of ~80.
You could use a wand of reduce person for a net +14 and dismissing it when you can move freely.
I've seen both synthesist and regular summoner in action and the regular summoner is by far more powerful. It's purely the action economy. The summoner can buff up his edilon fast than a synthesist can.
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That synthesist would not be able to aventure in at least 50% of time (inside a construction, a cavern...)Take for example:
A Max level synthesist is going to have:
Str: 54 Minimum (16 Base, +8 Bonus, +3 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Belt, +16 Size)
Dex: 21 (12 Base, +8 Bonus, +5 Inherent, -4 Size)
Con: 32 (13 Base, +5 Inherent, +6 Belt, +8 Size)There is just no way a fighter or barbarian can hope to compete with those stats.
+1 people see the huge size with +16 str and they are like omg wtf overpowered. But they don't realize that in most games you won't even be able to use the huge size evolution. Because how are you going to bring the Eidolon into town, dungeons, caves, and even just walking in a forest can be an issue.
Getting huge is generally a liability in most games unless you do a lot of just open world exploration. Even then going into towns, cities, villages will be a big challenge, unless you don't wear your suit in civilization.
Reduce Person w/Metamagic Extend will get you through most stuff like that.
Yes they are weak in comparison to the regular summoner and the master summoner.
SKR disagrees with you and I rather go by his ruling.Actually, I'm pretty sure he can. It's like using magic items that up your stats to qualify for feats. You can't use the feats if you lose the magic, but you technically could qualify since your scores are high enough "passively"I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.
The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.
But a belt's boosts are considered permanent after 24 hours of wear. The Eidolon's stats aren't permanent, they go away every time you fall asleep or unconscious.
You have to have the prerequisites for the feat at the time you level. You can't just say "duuuuuh, I was in my eidolon, so I had a 27 strength" and select power attack when your own Str is 7. That's like saying "I buffed myself with bull's strength right before I leveled." It doesn't work.
If the summoner himself doesn't have at least 13 Str, he can't take power attack, no matter how strong his Eidolon is.
Seems silly to me. Unless you can always wear your eidolon (you can't) you shouldn't be able to use it's stats to qualify for feats you wouldn't be able to qualify for without your eidolon.
Someone tried to pull that crap with me, I'd be like "Ok, you all level up in the middle of the night while you are sleeping. Pick your feats using your current stats."
Elves don't sleep?
Elves don't sleep?
Its a hold over from 3.5 that didn't make it into Pathfinder.
Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do.
Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf
resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does
from 8 hours of sleep. While meditating, an elf dreams, though
these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become
reflexive through years of practice. The Common word for an elf’s
meditation is “trance,” as in “four hours of trance.”
This never made it into the description of Elves in PF. Not sure if its intended because they still have the immunity to sleep spell effects. Either way it doesn't matter. The Devs have stated that the Stats for Synthesist count towards feat selection. Period. How you explain it is up to you. All these loop holes everyone is trying to explain/dismiss are un-needed.
BARBARIAN NOT KNOW WHAT TALKY PEOPLE AM TALKING ABOUT.
SYNTHESIS SUMMONER AM GREAT. BARBARIAN HEAR AM CAPABLE OF BEING FLYING MOUNT WITH SPEED OF LIKE 900 FT/ROUND. AM TOTALLY NOT WEAK, AM BEST CLASS FOR DELIVERING RAGELANCEPOUNCE DOWN ENEMY THROAT.
NOW WHERE ASPIRING SYNTHESIS SUMMONER FIND BARBARIAN FOR DELIVERING RAGELANCEPOUNCE DEATH AM TRICKY PART. BARBARIAN RECCOMEND CRAIGLIST.