It is my imagination or the synthesist is weak class?


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The idea i see in this forum is to dumpe the physical stats and have high mental stats and several people seems to think that this is OP.

However there are a couple of things that lead me to believe this is not the case

- he can not really dump con since the option to give your own Hp to the eidolon seems to me lik the best of the archetype.

- Summon monster is usseles for this kind of summoner (big hit).

- The synthesist is not really more powerfull than a normal eidolon, in fact is weaker because multiattack is not a free feat (since the eidolon do not have it own feats).

- It hurt the best quality of the summoner, action econmy. Now you can cast or attack, not both.

- As a whole (eidolon + summoner) he will not have more Skills than a normal summoner (even with 18 in int) because you are losing the skills of the eidolon.

- If the eidoon is banished or the summoner is attacked before fused with it, the summoner is in big problmes.

i am missing something?


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The "synthesists are weaker than the base summoner" meme is just barely less prevelant than the "synthesists are stronger than the base summoner!" meme.

In response:

1) He can dump everything else though. That's far more than the regular one can do.

2) That's not true at all.

3) The eidolon also has twice the HP that the regular eidolon would.

4) This does hurt, but there are many benefits to this as well. I'll go into those later.

5) Meh. Screw skills :P

6) I don't see how this can possibly exist on the list when you also complain about the Summon Monster SLA being useless. The answer is right there for you.

The synthesist is a bad archetype for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that it obliterates one of the largest points about PF: that Druidzilla is gone. They can no longer dump their physical stats and just use the stats of the animals they shift into. Hark! A synthesist! And suddenly you can do that. For that reason alone, it's a bad archetype.

The other reason is that it gets rid of almost every single balancing factor put into the Eidolon. The entire balancing factor was of the summoner was that it had the summoner as the weaklink. Guess who isn't the weaklink anymore? And the eidolons that usually primarily are the issues now have Good will saves thanks to the merging with the summoner. So the anti-eidolon spells have a smaller chance of working.

Combine that with the doubling up of the HP and the many, many playtest reports that they marginalize parties, no. They are not a weak class.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thread 1: Synthesist is overpowered and makes martial classes obsolete

Thread 2: Synthesist is weak

There, balanced design :)


Cheapy wrote:

The "synthesists are weaker than the base summoner" meme is just barely less prevelant than the "synthesists are stronger than the base summoner!" meme.

Although, it has so much FAQ/Errata that one wouldn't know how it works by reading the book.

Sovereign Court

oh no you didn't?

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:


Combine that with the doubling up of the HP and the many, many playtest reports that they marginalize parties, no. They are not a weak class.

There are very few classes that are not capable of marginalizing the rest of the party. This is something any skilled player with an optimized build can accomplish.


The synthesist is just plain broken. I GM'd for one in my last campaign and it damn near broke it. It was by the book and I scoured the forums to make sure I wasn't missing something. Also the player admitted he was taking it easy on me! I agree with everything cheapy said above an it as a better fighter than the fighter because the fighter didn't have the options to haste and heal himself. The only way the rest of the party got to fight is if I attacked the group while they camped and the synthesist was asleep. That character did die though.... only by fighting a fiendish minotaur monk 5 levels above the party........by himself.......and he almost won.


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In any event, even if it is weaker than the base summoner, that speaks more of the strength of the summoner than the weakness of the synthesist because the synthesist is not a weak archetype.


Artanthos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


Combine that with the doubling up of the HP and the many, many playtest reports that they marginalize parties, no. They are not a weak class.
There are very few classes that are not capable of marginalizing the rest of the party. This is something any skilled player with an optimized build can accomplish.

And it is damn easy with the synthesist to the point that unskilled players can do it too. To speak nothing of the summoner.


Cheapy wrote:
The "synthesists are weaker than the base summoner" meme is just barely less prevelant than the "synthesists are stronger than the base summoner!" meme.

Absolutely true. For every person that finds them broken you will find someone who thinks them weak sauce. I am of the opinion they are weaker then a straight Summoner, who is weaker then a Master Summoner.

Sythesist<Normal Summoner<Master Summoner.

Yet you see few if any post on how broken a Master Summoner is. Its very strange.

Quote:

In response:

1) He can dump everything else though. That's far more than the regular one can do.

Yes he can Dump Str and Dex. There are plenty of other classes that are single stat classes that can do the same (Wizards, Sorcs, Witches). But yes this is the only VALID issue I agree with.

Quote:
3) The eidolon also has twice the HP that the regular eidolon would.

And a normal Summoner has twice the actions and just as many HP... split between two people that can share HP back and forth(Life Bond).

Quote:

2) That's not true at all.

4) This does hurt, but there are many benefits to this as well. I'll go into those later.

5) Meh. Screw skills :P

6) I don't see how this can possibly exist on the list when you also complain about the Summon Monster SLA being useless. The answer is right there for you.

Agreed.

Quote:
The synthesist is a bad archetype for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that it obliterates one of the largest points about PF: that Druidzilla is gone. They can no longer dump their physical stats and just use the stats of the animals they shift into. Hark! A synthesist! And suddenly you can do that. For that reason alone, it's a bad archetype.

Druids and Summoners are not equal. Summoners have ONE form they can shift into. Unlike Druids they cant shift into whatever helps at the moment. And Druids where crazy for different reasons in 3.5. Lets see. 3/4 BAB, Could Shift into multiple combat forms to fit the situation, could cast 9th level spells, and got a PET that was almost as good as a party member... Druids did EVERYthing well in 3.5. For a Sythesist to replace the 3.5 Druid he would need a Pet, 9th level spells, and the ability to shift into different evolutions as he saw fit.

Quote:
The other reason is that it gets rid of almost every single balancing factor put into the Eidolon. The entire balancing factor was of the summoner was that it had the summoner as the weaklink. Guess who isn't the weaklink anymore? And the eidolons that usually primarily are the issues now have Good will saves thanks to the merging with the summoner. So the anti-eidolon spells have a smaller chance of working.

How is a 3/4 BAB, D8 HD, 6th Level spell Caster, Light Armor wearing player a "weak link"? Does that mean the Magus is weak... they basicly have the same survivability. Exept that the Summoner can at any point have his Eidolon D-Door to him for protection or cast a Summon Monster to get him out of trouble (after he dismisses his Eidolon).

Quote:
Combine that with the doubling up of the HP and the many, many playtest reports that they marginalize parties, no. They are not a weak class.

I dont feel the Sythesist is the issue. A normal Summoner would have "marginalized" the same party. Sythesist almost literally gains nothing thats a pure advantage over a normal Summoner, and loses quite a bit. Action Economy is king. And the Sythesist halfs it out the gate.

So (imo) no the Sythesist is not Broken. It is not overpowered. Its a gut reaction upon reading the archetype. Once you break down the Gain/Loss factor however you see its a flavorful, but underpowered Summoner. The reason it isnt seen as such is the sheer amount of power the Summoner has to begin with. Even being a less powerful option, a Sythesist is still a powerhouse.


Action economy is not always king. We are also talking about a class that has haste and slow as second level spells to help re-break that economy. They make use of both physical and mental ability boosting items since the shared body slots dilemma no longer really applies. Stack that with evo points to increase those physical abilites even more. How about flight? Doesn't cost many evo points no your faster than a monk! A fighter wants flight he needs 20k boots!


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
- It hurt the best quality of the summoner, action econmy. Now you can cast or attack, not both.

It does hurt...sometimes. You know what also hurts? Pounce is a 1 point Evolution for Quadrupeds and you start with 3 natural weapons at level 1.


I would like to see a good Synthesist build, i still have my doubts about the class.


Half-Elf Synthesist 12 (Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait) 20 pt buy
Neutral, Nethys

Str 9 +2 Belt
Dex 14 +1 @4, +2 Belt
Con 14 +2 Belt
Int 14
Wis 7
Cha 16 +2 racial, +1 @8, +1 @12, +4 Headband

In Merged Form:
Str 14 +5 (Str/dex bonus), +1 (ability increase), +2 (belt) =22
Dex 14 +5 (str/dex bonus), +2 (belt) =21
Con 13 +1 (ability increase), +2 (belt) =16

Traits: Magic is Life, Reactionary

Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 evolution point per level

Form: Quadraped
Evolutions = 19 (16 + 3 for FC bonus)
Pounce - 1
Improved Natural Armor x3 - 3
Claws (on feet) - 1
Hooves (on back feet) - 1
Limbs-Arms x 5 - 10
Scent - 1

ASPECT: Skilled: Perception - 1, Skilled: Stealth - 1

Feats:
*Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Wakizashi (Ancestral Arms)
1-Arcane Strike
3-Power Attack
5-Two Weapon Fighting (Becomes multiweapon fighting when you have more than two arms)
7-Double Slice
9-Hammer the Gap
11-Death from Above

Spells Known:
0x6: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Arcane Mark, Mage Hand, Mending, Message
1x6: Mage Armor, Grease, Ant Haul, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person
2x5: Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge
3x4: Black Tentacles, Displacement, Greater Invisibility, Dispel Magic
4x4: Overland Flight, Teleport, Baleful Polymorph, Purified Calling

Skills: Perception, Stealth, Spellcraft, Kn: Arcana

Equipment:
Various stuff including:
Ring of Protection +2
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Eyes of the Eagle
Cloak of Resistance +4
and 9x +1 Wakizashi
(about another 24k worth of magic gear)

SO TO SUM UP:
with just his hour/level buffs on, he has:
AC 10+4 (mage armor) +4 (shielded meld) +18 (natural) +2 (deflection) +5 (Dex) = AC 43, Touch 17, Flat Footed 38
He has a hand free to cast spells (CL 12, very high casting stat so good DC's)
He can heal himself if neccesary.
He has 8+11d8+36 hit points, and 9d10+27 temporary hitpoints (avg. 93+77)
His saves are:
Fort 4 (base) +3 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 15
Ref 4 (base) +5 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 17 +evasion
Will 8 (base) -2 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 14

Also Immune to Sleep, +2 vs. Death effects, +2 vs. Enchantments, and another +4 morale bonus against Enchantments, and he automatically stabilizes if under 0 hp.

Initiative = 7

He can charge 80 ft and do a full attack of 1 bite +2 hooves +2 claws +9 Wakizashis... use a swift action to add +3 damage to each attack, Free action to power attack for +6 damage on each attack, if he is flying (oveland flight lasts basically all day) he gets +5 on the attack rolls from Death From Above, and each hit does +1 dmg per hit already this turn... with 14 attacks.
OH and of course he has great Stealth and Perception so he can scout (and the racial +8 to each sticks around even without his Eidolon summoned)
Plus of course he can fall back on his Summoner Monster VI SLA 10 times a day.

BOOM. This isn't even an optimized version, this is just what I cam up with off the top of my head.
Synthesists are VERY VERY good. Trust me.


-Interzone

You obviously know a lot about playing a Summoner, and I don't want to step on your toes, but aren't you limited to the number of attacks that your eidolon can make each round. I believe the limit for 12th level is 5 attacks? Perhaps the Synthesist can get around this cap, or possibly the limit refers to types of attacks, but I has always read it as a limit on actual attacks.

However, even if the eidolon is limited to only 5 attacks, your build here is still quite deadly.

Once again, I have never played a Summoner, so I am just going off of what I've read. This is not intended to point fingers or to say "you're wrong". Just trying to clarify this part of your build since it shows that you are able to make 14 separate attacks in a full round action as opposed to 5.


No one ever seems to mention getting Evasion from level 1. You drop a Fireball on a Summoner or a Master Summoner and they will take at least half damage. You drop it on a Synthesist and they have a good chance of taking nothing.

Someone said wrote:
And a normal Summoner has twice the actions and just as many HP... split between two people that can share HP back and forth(Life Bond).

Life Bond only goes one way so if the Summoner is getting hurt by AoE or arrows they can't take the health back.


Sardonic Soul wrote:
The synthesist is just plain broken. I GM'd for one in my last campaign and it damn near broke it. It was by the book and I scoured the forums to make sure I wasn't missing something. Also the player admitted he was taking it easy on me! I agree with everything cheapy said above an it as a better fighter than the fighter because the fighter didn't have the options to haste and heal himself. The only way the rest of the party got to fight is if I attacked the group while they camped and the synthesist was asleep. That character did die though.... only by fighting a fiendish minotaur monk 5 levels above the party........by himself.......and he almost won.

I have had a trip focused monk at level 3 break an adventure--monk of many styles using ki throw--throwing a 30 CMD dire wolf zombie easily. could throw it to any hex within his reach--ie always into pits or spikes. (oh and with a +14 to hit--+10 because I was having to attack from the ground--I could not hit him with a hit of ac 22. and he had strength 18 on that monk) that was a legal FPS 20 pt buy---I checked with the local games master at our table who was playing---It had been checked out as that character wreacked havoc at every table it played at.

I have had a level 5 archer break an encounter--would one shot every single monster as it came through a door.

I have had a level 6 gunslinger break an encounter--2 dual barrel pistols gave him 8 shots a round to hit touch ac---would obliterate every thing on first round

I have seen--was not GMing---druids and paladins break encounters. Try running a bad guy dependent on charm or disease or somethign against a paladin--and then he smites you.

basically any class can be broken depending on builds. THe most common ones are berserker, archer-figher, druid-especially saurian shaman, zen archer, gunslinger, master summoner, synthesist, druid gunslinger, trip focused monks

those classes are easily lent to someone min-maxxing them to pretty much dominating a combat. But other classes can also depending on their builds. a good build two hand fighter or alchemist with the right archtype can be hella deadly also.


Eideann wrote:
Dragonamedrake said wrote:
And a normal Summoner has twice the actions and just as many HP... split between two people that can share HP back and forth(Life Bond).
Life Bond only goes one way so if the Summoner is getting hurt by AoE or arrows they can't take the health back.

Unless you use Life Conduit... A first level Summoner Spell. And its a swift action.

Serisan wrote:
Quote:
- It hurt the best quality of the summoner, action econmy. Now you can cast or attack, not both.
It does hurt...sometimes. You know what also hurts? Pounce is a 1 point Evolution for Quadrupeds and you start with 3 natural weapons at level 1.

Yeah that's great and all... except a Normal Summoner's Eidolon can do the SAME thing. And while he is Pouncing the Summoner is casting a Pit spell, or shooting a crossbow, or whatever. Its not like pounce is exclusive to Synthesist. That is EVERY summoner.

@Inerzone - And everything your 12th level Sythesist has... so does a Normal Eidolons pet(excluding maybe the higher saves). And has twice the actions per round.

Sardonic Soul wrote:
Action economy is not always king. We are also talking about a class that has haste and slow as second level spells to help re-break that economy. They make use of both physical and mental ability boosting items since the shared body slots dilemma no longer really applies. Stack that with evo points to increase those physical abilites even more. How about flight? Doesn't cost many evo points no your faster than a monk! A fighter wants flight he needs 20k boots!

1. No Action Economy IS always king. Its the same reason you don't throw a single high level boss at a party, or why having more then 4 people screws the CR system. Action Economy will always be the end all for potential power.

2. Haste and Slow dont help a Sythesist "rebalance" the economy vs a normal Summoner because he has the same spells... and can cast them while his pet Pounces, rakes, rends, ect, ect, ect.

3. Your Sythesist still has to "Share" Magic item slots because they are the same creature. The fact they can share a +STR item doesn't really mean much. When not in Eidolon form there is really no point to the Summoner having the extra str.

4. A Sythesist can gain flight at 5th level. A normal Summoner can gain the same flight at 10th (Aspect) or Ride his Eidolon at 8th level (when it becomes large). You can ride him at 5th if your a small creature.

Other then the evasion point and the stat dump there are zero advantages to a normal Summoner I have seen pointed out. Given the loss of actions its still a loss of power over a normal summoner imo.


Hakken wrote:


I have had a level 6 gunslinger break an encounter--2 dual barrel pistols gave him 8 shots a round to hit touch ac---would obliterate every thing on first round

Side question: How did he reload the two pistols (4 barrels) to get off 8 shots in a round?


Action Economy is not always king. Otherwise we'd be running around with pack lords, beastmasters, and broodmasters EVERYWHERE. And we're not. Just a counter-example to that one part.


Fabius Maximus wrote:
Hakken wrote:


I have had a level 6 gunslinger break an encounter--2 dual barrel pistols gave him 8 shots a round to hit touch ac---would obliterate every thing on first round
Side question: How did he reload the two pistols (4 barrels) to get off 8 shots in a round?

weapon cords

fire right hand gun--with left hand gun hanging. reload right hand gun--reloading is free action with rapid reload--so two free actions. fire right hand gun again---4 shots

free action--drop right hand gun--swift action--pick up left hand gun. fire it, reload with right hand with two free actions--fire again--8 shots.

next round you just start firing with the left hand and then transition to the right.


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Cheapy wrote:
Action Economy is not always king. Otherwise we'd be running around with pack lords, beastmasters, and broodmasters EVERYWHERE. And we're not.

You dont see those EVERYWHERE because they are hard to micro manage and the individual creatures in question are much lower level (which causes their actions to count for less). Thats not the case when you look at a Summoner and his Eidolon who both have significant actions they can produce to sway the battle.

P.S. Cheapy your one of the unique posters on these boards. Its obvious you know your stuff. Either your opinion is like something taken right out my head, or its completely opposed to my opinion lol. It would interesting sitting down and discussing the game as a whole with you.


My lvl 5 half elf synth cohort (mount) almost killed a CR 10 BBEG solo no buffs... if I hadn't rolled horribly on my saves it would have been np at all.

On the other hand, the lvl 7 pal archer with oath of vengeance puts out insane damage and can do it all day long.

There are a couple classes that don't have this sort of schtick... I really wish the rogue had more going for it, I wish the monk was a bit more well rounded, and I wish the bard stop looking at me that way, but most classes have their moments, and I think that is a-okay.


Gorbacz wrote:

Thread 1: Synthesist is overpowered and makes martial classes obsolete

Thread 2: Synthesist is weak

There, balanced design :)

I just want to point out how epic it is that those exact two threads are on the front page of Paizo at this very moment.


Eideann wrote:

No one ever seems to mention getting Evasion from level 1. You drop a Fireball on a Summoner or a Master Summoner and they will take at least half damage. You drop it on a Synthesist and they have a good chance of taking nothing.

Someone said wrote:
And a normal Summoner has twice the actions and just as many HP... split between two people that can share HP back and forth(Life Bond).
Life Bond only goes one way so if the Summoner is getting hurt by AoE or arrows they can't take the health back.

I believe Summoners get most damage as nonlethal by 4th level (1 hr/level)?

https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/a/ablative-bar rier

AoE's count as an attack so that fireball: nonlethal.
Anything over the 5 transfer is lethal, but healing spells cure both at same time.
It actually makes healing useful in battle (as you cure double).


theporkchopxpress wrote:

-Interzone

You obviously know a lot about playing a Summoner, and I don't want to step on your toes, but aren't you limited to the number of attacks that your eidolon can make each round. I believe the limit for 12th level is 5 attacks? Perhaps the Synthesist can get around this cap, or possibly the limit refers to types of attacks, but I has always read it as a limit on actual attacks.

However, even if the eidolon is limited to only 5 attacks, your build here is still quite deadly.

Once again, I have never played a Summoner, so I am just going off of what I've read. This is not intended to point fingers or to say "you're wrong". Just trying to clarify this part of your build since it shows that you are able to make 14 separate attacks in a full round action as opposed to 5.

The maximum is to Natural attacks, which he has 5 of (the max).

There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to weild them.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Eideann wrote:
Dragonamedrake said wrote:
And a normal Summoner has twice the actions and just as many HP... split between two people that can share HP back and forth(Life Bond).
Life Bond only goes one way so if the Summoner is getting hurt by AoE or arrows they can't take the health back.

Unless you use Life Conduit... A first level Summoner Spell. And its a swift action.

Serisan wrote:
Quote:
- It hurt the best quality of the summoner, action econmy. Now you can cast or attack, not both.
It does hurt...sometimes. You know what also hurts? Pounce is a 1 point Evolution for Quadrupeds and you start with 3 natural weapons at level 1.

Yeah that's great and all... except a Normal Summoner's Eidolon can do the SAME thing. And while he is Pouncing the Summoner is casting a Pit spell, or shooting a crossbow, or whatever. Its not like pounce is exclusive to Synthesist. That is EVERY summoner.

@Inerzone - And everything your 12th level Sythesist has... so does a Normal Eidolons pet(excluding maybe the higher saves). And has twice the actions per round.

Sardonic Soul wrote:
Action economy is not always king. We are also talking about a class that has haste and slow as second level spells to help re-break that economy. They make use of both physical and mental ability boosting items since the shared body slots dilemma no longer really applies. Stack that with evo points to increase those physical abilites even more. How about flight? Doesn't cost many evo points no your faster than a monk! A fighter wants flight he needs 20k boots!

1. No Action Economy IS always king. Its the same reason you don't throw a single high level boss at a party, or why having more then 4 people screws the CR system. Action Economy will always be the end all for potential power.

2. Haste and Slow dont help a Sythesist "rebalance" the economy vs a normal Summoner because he has the same spells... and can cast them while his pet Pounces, rakes, rends, ect, ect,...

There are a few things a synthesist can do that a Summoner and/or Eidolon can't... THAT SAID: I totally agree that a regular Summoner is generally better than the Synthesist. I was just making the point that the Synthesist is ridiculously powerful. We all know the Summoner himself is broken :P (I won't even get into Master Summoner)


Interzone wrote:
There are a few things a synthesist can do that a Summoner and/or Eidolon can't... THAT SAID: I totally agree that a regular Summoner is generally better than the Synthesist. I was just making the point that the Synthesist is ridiculously powerful. We all know the Summoner himself is broken :P (I won't even get into Master Summoner)

Thank you. This is exactly my point. Im not saying that a Sythesist isnt powerful, but it is certainly not more powerful then a normal Summoner, or even close to the power of a Master Summoner.

But for some reason there are those who think the Sythesist is the overpowered icing on the Summoner cake. It boggles my mind. There is a thread that just started on how to "nerf" the sythesist specifically. Its like trying to outlaw knives but allowing same day sales on guns.


Interzone wrote:
There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to wield them.

However, spending evo points on limbs and money on weapons is a limiting factor of it's own when it comes to spamming manufactured weapons.


I like the idea of summoner and synthesist but when I build one and look at the rest of the party, I feel like I'm cheating. :(

But then, I often feel the same way when I make a wizard.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Interzone wrote:
There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to wield them.
However, spending evo points on limbs and money on weapons is a limiting factor of it's own when it comes to spamming manufactured weapons.

Yeah why not natural weapons?


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Interzone wrote:
There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to wield them.
However, spending evo points on limbs and money on weapons is a limiting factor of it's own when it comes to spamming manufactured weapons.

Which doesn't really matter because a normal Summoner's Eidolon can use them too. Here is a list of what currently posters have shown a Syth can do that a Summoner cant.

1. More Freely Stat Dump (and a Summoner doesn't need Str either). So great... he saved a few points on Dex.

2. He gets Evasion at 2nd level. Great. Saves him 25k on a ring to do the same.

3. He has alot of HP. So what. The Summoner can do the same with Life Link and Life Bond.

And what does he give up in return?

1. 8 Feats and Multiattack
2. 60+ Skill Points
3. Bonded Senses (Free Scouting)
4. Maker’s Call and Transposition (ouch)
5. And the Big DADDY of them all... He is reduced to one action a round. No Pouncing and casting at the same time. No Attack while the Summoner heals you. No Summon Eidolon followed by using your SU Summon abilities.

And just to kick em in the nuts a little bit more... the Summoner gets Merge Form at 16th level (so you become a Syth for a short time) and at 20th he gets Twin Eidolon (two Syth at the same time).

Am I missing something? Please show me what I am missing.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Interzone wrote:
There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to wield them.
However, spending evo points on limbs and money on weapons is a limiting factor of it's own when it comes to spamming manufactured weapons.

Which doesn't really matter because a normal Summoner's Eidolon can use them too. Here is a list of what currently posters have shown a Syth can do that a Summoner cant.

1. More Freely Stat Dump (and a Summoner doesn't need Str either). So great... he saved a few points on Dex.

2. He gets Evasion at 2nd level. Great. Saves him 25k on a ring to do the same.

3. He has alot of HP. So what. The Summoner can do the same with Life Link and Life Bond.

And what does he give up in return?

1. 8 Feats and Multiattack
2. 60+ Skill Points
3. Bonded Senses (Free Scouting)
4. Maker’s Call and Transposition (ouch)
5. And the Big DADDY of them all... He is reduced to one action a round. No Pouncing and casting at the same time. No Attack while the Summoner heals you. No Summon Eidolon followed by using your SU Summon abilities.

And just to kick em in the nuts a little bit more... the Summoner gets Merge Form at 16th level (so you become a Syth for a short time) and at 20th he gets Twin Eidolon (two Syth at the same time).

Am I missing something? Please show me what I am missing.

Most of the post, I agree on. I think it might be interesting to play this just to be The Guyver :P

But: Level 16 rarely kicks in, and lv20 never kicks in, during actual play in my experience. The furthest we have gotten since we started playing PF (beta testing) was 17. GMs generally dislike running high levels, and most adventure paths end on 16-18, where we are so tired of high level play that we long for the "fun" levels (1-12). So those abilities doesn't really matter.

Also, anything even slightly optimized at levels 13+ breaks the game in my experience, and leads to the most draining phenomenon in gaming: PC vs GM escalation, where the non-optimized PCs become obsolete, and game is not fun for anyone.

Silver Crusade

I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.

The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.


Elamdri wrote:

I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.

The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he can. It's like using magic items that up your stats to qualify for feats. You can't use the feats if you lose the magic, but you technically could qualify since your scores are high enough "passively"

Silver Crusade

pobbes wrote:
Elamdri wrote:

I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.

The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he can. It's like using magic items that up your stats to qualify for feats. You can't use the feats if you lose the magic, but you technically could qualify since your scores are high enough "passively"

But a belt's boosts are considered permanent after 24 hours of wear. The Eidolon's stats aren't permanent, they go away every time you fall asleep or unconscious.

You have to have the prerequisites for the feat at the time you level. You can't just say "duuuuuh, I was in my eidolon, so I had a 27 strength" and select power attack when your own Str is 7. That's like saying "I buffed myself with bull's strength right before I leveled." It doesn't work.

If the summoner himself doesn't have at least 13 Str, he can't take power attack, no matter how strong his Eidolon is.


Eidolon usually has a weak spot (Will Saves) and Summoner usually has a weak spot (Melee).

Synthesist has neither.

For this he gives up some things as stated in the posts above.

So for me they are about the same league. In games where the GM plays nice the base Summoner may be stronger. In games where the GM is nasty and makes a beeline for the casters asap in most combats the Synthesist may be stronger.

But to ask wether the Synthesist is a weak class is, well, strange.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Interzone wrote:
There is no limit on attacks with manufactured weapons as long as you have the limbs to wield them.
However, spending evo points on limbs and money on weapons is a limiting factor of it's own when it comes to spamming manufactured weapons.

1) Pick up improved unarmed strike via feat or dip into monk.

2) Get as many limbs as you can afford.
3) Get Multi Weapon Fighting.
4) Get the highest AMoF you can afford.
5) DPR through the roof on a full attack.


Elamdri wrote:
pobbes wrote:
Elamdri wrote:

I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.

The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he can. It's like using magic items that up your stats to qualify for feats. You can't use the feats if you lose the magic, but you technically could qualify since your scores are high enough "passively"

But a belt's boosts are considered permanent after 24 hours of wear. The Eidolon's stats aren't permanent, they go away every time you fall asleep or unconscious.

You have to have the prerequisites for the feat at the time you level. You can't just say "duuuuuh, I was in my eidolon, so I had a 27 strength" and select power attack when your own Str is 7. That's like saying "I buffed myself with bull's strength right before I leveled." It doesn't work.

If the summoner himself doesn't have at least 13 Str, he can't take power attack, no matter how strong his Eidolon is.

SKR disagrees with you and I rather go by his ruling.


On the matter of hit points, has there been any errata that he calculates hp from his original con? I haven't seen any, but if it exists, I would love to be pointed there.

As written, the synthesist get the eidolons con. You hp is determined by your con score. Eventhough it is temporary bonus, it increases your current and total hit points.

Nothing in the synthesist suggest that he uses his own con for calculating his normal hit points, when he wear the eidolon. If he does so with a con score of 1, he is sure to die, if the eidolon disappears; and he is not going to be of much use if the Eidolon is away, but that is a trade-off that might be worth it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Synthesist is not that much more broken than a regular Summoner.

But then again, a regular Summoner is a fairly broken class. :)


OT Reloading Firearms:
Hakken wrote:
Fabius Maximus wrote:
Hakken wrote:


I have had a level 6 gunslinger break an encounter--2 dual barrel pistols gave him 8 shots a round to hit touch ac---would obliterate every thing on first round
Side question: How did he reload the two pistols (4 barrels) to get off 8 shots in a round?

weapon cords

fire right hand gun--with left hand gun hanging. reload right hand gun--reloading is free action with rapid reload--so two free actions. fire right hand gun again---4 shots

free action--drop right hand gun--swift action--pick up left hand gun. fire it, reload with right hand with two free actions--fire again--8 shots.

next round you just start firing with the left hand and then transition to the right.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. Reloading a firearm with Rapid Reload is a move action, and that's only for one barrel.

Silver Crusade

Gignere wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
pobbes wrote:
Elamdri wrote:

I'm confused as to how a synthesist can dump strength and still qualify for feats like power attack.

The eidolon doesn't get feats and the synthesist can't meet the prerequisite.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he can. It's like using magic items that up your stats to qualify for feats. You can't use the feats if you lose the magic, but you technically could qualify since your scores are high enough "passively"

But a belt's boosts are considered permanent after 24 hours of wear. The Eidolon's stats aren't permanent, they go away every time you fall asleep or unconscious.

You have to have the prerequisites for the feat at the time you level. You can't just say "duuuuuh, I was in my eidolon, so I had a 27 strength" and select power attack when your own Str is 7. That's like saying "I buffed myself with bull's strength right before I leveled." It doesn't work.

If the summoner himself doesn't have at least 13 Str, he can't take power attack, no matter how strong his Eidolon is.

SKR disagrees with you and I rather go by his ruling.

Seems silly to me. Unless you can always wear your eidolon (you can't) you shouldn't be able to use it's stats to qualify for feats you wouldn't be able to qualify for without your eidolon.

Someone tried to pull that crap with me, I'd be like "Ok, you all level up in the middle of the night while you are sleeping. Pick your feats using your current stats."

Silver Crusade

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Fabius Maximus wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload from a move to a free action.

That being said, I would probably rule in my game that the bouncing of the guns on the weapon cords is too many free actions in a round.


Elamdri wrote:

Seems silly to me. Unless you can always wear your eidolon (you can't) you shouldn't be able to use it's stats to qualify for feats you wouldn't be able to qualify for without your eidolon.

Someone tried to pull that crap with me, I'd be like "Ok, you all level up in the middle of the night while you are sleeping. Pick your feats using your current stats."

Nobody tells you how to play your game. It is an issue where people reasonably have differing points of view.

However if you do it that way, next game you might have an elf summoner, who doesn't need to sleep...


It seems like my mistake was to compare the synthesit against the normal summoner, now i See that both are crealy broken.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder elves need to sleep. They're just immune to magic sleep.

I could see synthesist being able to use the eidolon's scores to qualify for feats if it was always active. The problem is that the Eidolon is NOT always up. You shouldn't be able to use temporary boosts to your ability scores to qualify for feats. If you're not boosting it with a belt/headband/Tome/Wish/level point then you shouldn't get the temp bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

Contributor

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Elamdri-

Official rules clarifications from developers aside, it doesn't make sense to you that a synthesist summoner could qualify for the Power Attack feat using his eidolon's Strength score, and be able to Power Attack in that form, but not be able to do so when the summoner is too weak without his eidolon? Doesn't seem to be anything inherently game-breaking there, and, if anything, the summoner is paying for a feat he can't use all the time, which kind of goes in the opposite direction of breaking the game. Just some thoughts. =-)

In other related news, my last character was a synthesist summoner. I made him under normal PFS rules (though not for PFS play), with normal point-buys and gold allocations. Putting the whole "synthesist is less powerful than a normal summoner" argument aside, this by-the-book character was brutal. And I do mean brutal. I could take on BBEGs several CRs above mine all by myself, not worry about getting hit or damaged too much, and totally eviscerate enemies with flurries of natural attacks. I thought the character would kind of bell-curve out from the early-level HP dump this class gets, but it never did, and the other party members could never catch up. By 5th level, I felt so guilty for hogging the limelight that I shed all magic items but a few potions, and just relied on the natural bad-assery of the class. Finally retired him at 10th level after falling into the habit of finding other things to do in combat but fighting with my eidolon -often just summoning in support creatures purely to give others a chance to participate, or buffing other party members by keeping my eidolon away for entire game sessions at a time. LOVED the class and the concept and personality I brought to the table (good roleplaying can often get you a pass with this sort of thing), but felt guilty after every game session that I was robbing the fun from other players, who aren't slouches in the character-building department (and the game included a current Paizo developer, at that).

So say what you want with builds and comparisons and arguments to the contrary, but I played a meticulously by-the-book synthesist at a table with some old pros, and it was so brutal I self-nerfed and kept my eidolon packed away for sessions at a time to maintain fairness and balance. Jus' sayin'.


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Elamdri wrote:

Pathfinder elves need to sleep. They're just immune to magic sleep.

I could see synthesist being able to use the eidolon's scores to qualify for feats if it was always active. The problem is that the Eidolon is NOT always up. You shouldn't be able to use temporary boosts to your ability scores to qualify for feats. If you're not boosting it with a belt/headband/Tome/Wish/level point then you shouldn't get the temp bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

Any temporary bonus to an ability that last for 24 hours is considered permenant for the purposes of qualifing for feats. As long as you stay in Syth form for 24 hours (not that hard) you can qualify for feats. I will have to look up the post, but this is an intended quality of Synthesist. There have been several post by the Devs that have stated that Sythesist can qualify for feats as long as they meet the requirements while merged. The only exception is that he is only able to use the feat while he had the prereq ability score he needed to take the feat (so only while merged in most cases).

Scarab Sages

Just wanted to point out that the synthesist build further up in this thread isn't technically legal. Ancestral Arms makes you proficient with your family's unique weapon, not all weapons of that type. You'd still need Exotic Weapon proficiency to make it work.

Anecdote: The only way I've ever seen a summoner break the game is through a crazy number of actions via summoning with a player who doesn't know how to speed up his turn. Other than that... never had a problem. That crazy AC/Saves doesn't mean a thing when the standard characters aren't getting hit anyways. >_>

Edit: Oh, and whoever made that slight against the Bard? YOU'RE WELCOME FOR THAT +5 TO YOUR ATTACK AND DAMAGE ROLLS ON THAT POUNCE. At least the fighters/barbarians/rangers/rogues/ EVERYONE is grateful for my buffs, unlike those selfish summoners who think they're one-man armies.

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