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Short Question: What is the meaning of the word "must" in regards to magical item construction requirements?
Longer Question: The magical item creation rules have this to say on magical item requirements:
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
However, the game developers have unofficially clarified that there are requirements that cannot be skipped in this fashion, such as the caster level requirements for magical arms and armor's enhancement bonuses (and possibly for a cloak of resistance's resistance bonus as well).
So, if there ARE indeed additional exceptions to the above rule, where do we draw the line? When an item says we MUST have something (race, alignment, feat or skill ranks, etc.), should that be considered an absolute? Or can we simply add +5 to the Craft/Spellcraft DC even for that?
Take the amulet of mighty fists and amulet of natural armor as examples. Among other requirements it states "creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus." Or perhaps the belt of dwarvenkind, which states, "the creator must be a dwarf."
How absolute is this "must," really?
I'd venture a guess that "must", in your examples, is an absolute. Why could (or should) a halfling be able to craft a belt of dwarvenkind?
Limitations on item creation are in place to ensure that items like the amulet of mighty fists can't just be cranked out and sold off by a crafter.
I'd say the +5 to the DC would apply if you were trying to create an item but did not have the requisite spell or spell components at the time of crafting.
"Must" is within the purview of the GM, and "musts" that have been undermined by developer statements are of course very flexible "musts".
But they're still "musts", and only the GM can undo them.
Ravingdork: can you provide a refference to the unofficial clarification? I am curious to see it.
As for the whole 'must' thing. There are 'musts' that the developers have stated can be bypassed. It detracts from the strength of 'must'.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Bold1: Prerequisites 'must be met'
Bold2: Can bypass prerequisites by adding a +5 to the DC.Right there it completely nullifies the concept of 'must'.
Honestly, that is some rather convoluted english and is the source of the problem. Remove the word 'must' and replace it with something else (don't ask me what, I dont know).
- Gauss
Should? Aught to? Would be ever so nice if?
I'd venture a guess that "must", in your examples, is an absolute. Why could (or should) a halfling be able to craft a belt of dwarvenkind?
Limitations on item creation are in place to ensure that items like the amulet of mighty fists can't just be cranked out and sold off by a crafter.
I'd say the +5 to the DC would apply if you were trying to create an item but did not have the requisite spell or spell components at the time of crafting.
Honestly, a halfling with some dwarven training should be far easier be able to make the belt of dwarvenkind for example, than someone missing the required spell is able to "wing it".
But that works, and other limitations like race doesn't?
Good/evil can be explained that you actually have to tap into those planes to make it, and it just doesn't work otherwise though. Even then I could see some crafty bastards "winging it".
I just consider it to be an exercise in "specific overrides general".
General: Prerequisites must be met.
Specific: Add +5 DC for each unmet prerequisite.
More specific: Creator must be a dwarf.
Another way to consider it is that there are two ways to "meet" a prerequisite:
1) Have the spell/feat/level/feature/ability.
2) Add 5 to the DC.
If any prerequisite for a particular item specifies that it, in turn, must be met, option 2 is not available.
*shrugs* I admit that I am a tad harsher when it comes to ruling the prereqs: All of them MUST be met, somehow.
The +5 DC per missing qualification is what I apply if the prerequisite has to be met by somebody else, assisting the crafter.
Here's how it works:
Steve the human crafting wizard wants to create a Headband of Int +2. Caster level to make a Headband of Int +2 is 8 and requires the spell Fox's Cunning. DC is 10+caster level for a level 8 wizard to make this, so DC 18.
Steve is level 5. He has max ranks in spellcraft and an 18 int, so his base spellcraft roll is +9. He has the feat craft wondrous item, which he MUST have to even attempt this.
He does not have the right caster level to make this headband, so the DC to attempt this increases by 5 to 23. He MUST provide a spell caster to cast an 8th caster level Fox's Cunning for the spell, and this spellcaster MUST be present while Steve is making the headband. Since the headband costs 4000 gp, it takes 4 days to craft.
If you have a buddy 8th level or higher spellcaster that can cast Fox's Cunning willing to sit the four days with you for free, the +5 to the DC is all you have to worry about (that and making the roll). However, most players don't have higher level spellcasters to help for free. Then you have to pay a spellcaster as the Spellcasting and Services rules in the Core Book page 159. This isn't so bad for low cost items, but if you make an item that costs 30,000 gold, you may need to hire a high level spellcaster for a month. That could get costly. Also, you may be in a place that doesn't have that level of spellcaster available. Just because a city has 20th level spellcasters does not mean they'd lower themselves to work 125 days to help you build a vorpal amulet of mighty fists.
What increasing the DC does NOT do is let you manifest a higher caster level or a spell you don't know on your own. That would be way too powerful. The rule restrictions are there for a reason. Getting magic items for half price is powerful, especially since you can tailor them to your own needs and strengths. A player that argues for ignoring these restrictions will severely imbalance your game. Plus, item creation is not supposed to be automatic. There is a skill check to roll. Steve won't make the 23 DC by taking a 10. He could roll and fail the check to make the +2 Headband of Int, wasting a portion of costly materials. I've seen a lot of players who think that you just put ranks in spellcraft, then they show me a build so broken powerful with all their caster level 15-20 items they bought with self crafted items even though they are only actually caster level eight. It looks like cheating because it is. The only reason anyone gets mad over it is because they want a broken build, but nobody lets Fireball be a save or die spell because a player wants it that way. It is what it is.
This is a part of the challenge, the authors and playtesters knew what they were doing when they wrote the rules for item creation. And remember, Item Creation is still really powerful. It doesn't need any help.
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Dr. Guns-For-Hands:
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
Thus: the DC for your example is 5+8 = 18.
Steve's base spellcraft roll is also incorrect. Since Spellcraft is a class skill for him it is 5(ranks)+4(int)+3(trained) = +12.
Caster Level is not a prerequisite unless specifically stated it is.
FAQ stating CL is not a prerequisite
This is an example of a Caster Level prerequisite:
creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus
The spell is NOT required. It is a +5 to the DC if you do not have the spell. That is part of the debate about 'must' so I will leave it above.
DC for Steve to make the Headband of Intelligence +2:
5+8(CL) = 13. +5 if he accelerates it. +5 if he does not have the spell memorized or have the spell provided by another. That is all. Take 10 and there is no chance of failure (5+4int+3trained+10 = 22).
- Gauss
Here's how it works:
Steve the human crafting wizard wants to create a Headband of Int +2. Caster level to make a Headband of Int +2 is 8 and requires the spell Fox's Cunning. DC is 10+caster level for a level 8 wizard to make this, so DC 18.
Steve is level 5. He has max ranks in spellcraft and an 18 int, so his base spellcraft roll is +9. He has the feat craft wondrous item, which he MUST have to even attempt this.
He does not have the right caster level to make this headband, so the DC to attempt this increases by 5 to 23. He MUST provide a spell caster to cast an 8th caster level Fox's Cunning for the spell, and this spellcaster MUST be present while Steve is making the headband. Since the headband costs 4000 gp, it takes 4 days to craft.
If you have a buddy 8th level or higher spellcaster that can cast Fox's Cunning willing to sit the four days with you for free, the +5 to the DC is all you have to worry about (that and making the roll). However, most players don't have higher level spellcasters to help for free. Then you have to pay a spellcaster as the Spellcasting and Services rules in the Core Book page 159. This isn't so bad for low cost items, but if you make an item that costs 30,000 gold, you may need to hire a high level spellcaster for a month. That could get costly. Also, you may be in a place that doesn't have that level of spellcaster available. Just because a city has 20th level spellcasters does not mean they'd lower themselves to work 125 days to help you build a vorpal amulet of mighty fists.
What increasing the DC does NOT do is let you manifest a higher caster level or a spell you don't know on your own. That would be way too powerful. The rule restrictions are there for a reason. Getting magic items for half price is powerful, especially since you can tailor them to your own needs and strengths. A player that argues for ignoring these restrictions will severely imbalance your game. Plus, item creation is not supposed to be automatic. There is a skill check to roll. Steve...
The caster level of an item in the CRB has no bearing on the level required to craft it. There have been numerous dev posts clarifying this. The listed CL is for things like resisting dispel magic.
To create said Headband requires only level 3 - the level at which Craft Wondrous Item can be taken and also the minimum level a caster could get the relevant spell. You could create it at a higher caster level if you wanted to but it is not required.
He definitely does not need a level 8 caster there busily casting Fox's Cunning for him.
The main limit on crafting magic items is time and money. The devs have indicated difficulty is not meant to be a major limiting factor.
You can make an item that requires a spell you don't know. Depending on how you interpret the terms must and prerequisite, everything bar the actual item creation feat can be avoided.
SKR has started a thread asking for magic item creation issues as the devs are working on some kind of product that will hopefully clarify a lot of these grey areas.
How does a level 3 wizard create an item that registers as caster level 8?
How does a wizard manifest say, cure light wounds, a spell he doesn't know, into a cure light wounds wand?
I'm not asking if someone said that this was okay, and that a wizard can do this because devs said so, I'm saying how does he do it? I don't buy that +5 to spellcraft means a wizard casts cure light wounds to make a wand.
CL: He doesn't. If the level 3 wizard crafts that item it's CL 3. The listed CL is if you buy the stuff, players can craft it at any CL they like (max their own)
Wand of CLW: He doesn't, because for wands, scrolls and potions you can't skip the spell.
Wands, potions, scrolls and staves are different. You actually need the spell for those.
A wondrous item that grants some form of healing might require the cure light wounds spell, but a skilled wizard could bypass that with just the right magical components and incantations (+5 DC). Such an item does not actually cast cure light wounds though.
Remember, you don't even need to be a spellcaster to make wondrous items or magic arms and armor (by taking the Master Craftsman feat).
MagiMaster is correct about Wands, Potions, Scrolls, and Staves: I should have placed that exception in my text.
- Gauss
As stated, the CLs given are not required. That's more of a suggested CL that makes the item effective.
As a general rule though, I get my players to find a spellcaster with the required spell if they don't have it, but we know this isn't RAW, just the way we feel item creation should work. However, if they have another idea, like a quest, or using some rare and sympathetic component, I let them bypass those requirements (with the upped DC). That's because we feel it adds to the storytelling and makes it more of an achievement (also a cool way to gain XP and loot!).
By RAW, all that stuff can be bypassed with +5 to DC. Enough of them, and you do start to run serious risk of failure - one or two, and it's not so much a problem.
What about crafting an amulet of natural armor?
The spell required is Barkskin. Wizard's don't know it. He can logically know of the existence and effects of the spell through Spellcraft. He can even watch a druid cast Barkskin, and have the druid explain in full detail how he does it. But no matter how much he tries, he can't write Barkskin into his spellbook. Barkskin just isn't on his spell list and it is beyond him.
But you're saying that just this once, a wizard, by himself, no help, just thinks really hard and is able to manifest barkskin into the amulet? If the wizard could really do this, I see no reason why barkskin isn't in his spellbook. He clearly understands it enough to cast it in closed quarters.
I always assumed that with the Master Craftsman feat, the crafter could only by himself make enhancements to the weapon or armor bonus since there is no spell requirement to do so, but if another spellcaster was there to cast fireball, he could do the +5 to the DC to make a Burning weapon, etc.
I think there should be 2 more 'must' prerequsites to item creation.
A well stocked library, dont have one, +5 DC
Have an great humongous library at your disposal, get +1 to 5 on the Check.
A Welll equiped Laboratory, dont have one, +5 DC
Also have lab assistents, and a great well stock lab might give bonus as well
Then the DC for Item creation should be tweaked a little more,
example's
Wanna make an item without haveing the right spells +5 DC, and this means that you only get a DC +5 for making a ring of 3 wishis without the wish spell, and also a +5 DC for making boots of levitation without the levitate spell. this seems a bit strange, So missing a spell should depend on the level of the spell you dont have.
Then there is a wizard making a wand of Cure light wounds, and he must therefore hack into the divine magical powers of the gods, this semms a bit akward, this should be a wee bit more difficult.
Crafting an item should also be about fluff. Therefor making boot of levitation from the skin of a beholder, and using the beholders MAgnus leviticus as shoe polish, (The organ with what it floats)might result in using less money and easy crafting of you boots...
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Dr. Guns-For-Hands:
Wizard can make an Amulet of Barkskin just fine. Increase the DC by +5 and you have an Amulet of Barkskin.
Some people do not like this 'easy' creation. If you do not, you are free to houserule it. However, by RAW you do not need the spell to make a Wondrous Item (or any other item except Potion, Scroll, Staff, or Wand).
Honestly, 'must' is probably a poor choice of words when 2 sentances later 'must' is contradicted with +5DC if you do not have it.
In any case. CL does not = a prerequisite. A sentance stating a caster level prerequisite = a prequisite. Spells are a prerequisite. Don't have the caster level? +5DC. Dont have the spell? +5DC. Not an Elf? +5DC. Not a Cleric? +5DC.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The relevant sections:
1) These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.2) The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
3) The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
4) In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
#2 contradicts and overrides #1
#3 places an exception on #2
#4 places an exception on #2
- Gauss
CL: He doesn't. If the level 3 wizard crafts that item it's CL 3. The listed CL is if you buy the stuff, players can craft it at any CL they like (max their own)
No, that isn't how it works.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/19/10
You can make items of a caster level higher than your own.
But you're saying that just this once, a wizard, by himself, no help, just thinks really hard and is able to manifest barkskin into the amulet? If the wizard could really do this, I see no reason why barkskin isn't in his spellbook. He clearly understands it enough to cast it in closed quarters.
He is not "manifesting barkskin". He is creating a magic item which, when worn, provides a natural armor bonus. There are two ways to do to this. One involves casting the spell barkskin during the item creation, the other involves some other, unspecified thing, which is represented by the +5 spellcraft DC.
The amulet of magic armor does at no point cast barkskin or is used to cast barkskin. Beyond that fact that both provide a natural AC bonus and that barkskin can be useful to create the amulet, they have nothing in common. An amulet of natural armor is not, in any way, a "barkskin amulet". Your even free to set the fluff (scales, fur, blubber, bark or even nothing visible at all) for the amulet, while for barkskin, it's bark.
I always assumed that with the Master Craftsman feat, the crafter could only by himself make enhancements to the weapon or armor bonus since there is no spell requirement to do so, but if another spellcaster was there to cast fireball, he could do the +5 to the DC to make a Burning weapon, etc.
As you have been assured repeatedly, that was a false assumption. The master craftsman can create a flaming demon band sword of holy vorpality +5 all by himself.
666bender:
No: the CL is a factor in the DC.
A Level 3 wizard would have something in the neighborhood of a +10spellcraft bonus. At most (rolling a 20) he can get a DC of 30.
The DC to craft a CL30 item would be 5+30 = 35 IF all prerequisites are met.
Now: can a level 3 wizard craft a Pearl of Power 1? Yes. The DC of that is 5+17 = 23. A 65% chance of success.
Could that same level 3 wizard craft a Pearl of Power 3? Yes, but because he does not meet one of the prerequisites (able to cast a level 3 spell) the DC goes up by 5 to 28. This means he has a 15% chance of success.
The FAQ discusses how to reduce CLs to a level which is appropriate to the item if the CL is artificially high.
Example: Pearls of Power are CL17. It is reasonable to assume this is because a Pearl of Power 9 requires a CL17 to cast level 9 spells (the lowest level any class with level 9 spells can cast them is level 17). However, it doesn't make sense for a Pearl of Power 1 to be CL17. So reduce it.
- Gauss
I agree, which is why my group plays it houseruled. But them's the RAW.
666bender:
How do you figure? First of all, cash is a problem. Second, the DCs still have to be met. It really is limiting.
Craft Arms and Armor: amounts to a +1attack, +1damage, +1AC (armor), and +1AC (shield). This is all that the cash reduction gets a person.
Craft Wondrous Items: This is a bit more nebulous but it usually amounts to a +1natural armor boost, +1'other' AC boost, and +1 to two ability score modifiers.
Really, the difference is not that great and while it might be a bit stronger than some feats it is not in any way overpowered relative to the general feat system.
Try crunching the numbers sometime.
- Gauss
A couple of other crafting conundrums:
Necklace of Fireballs Type 7. To cast a fireball that does 7d6 damage like the largest necklace bead, you have to be a level 7 caster. By the rules laid out here, you could ignore the CL and spell requirement to make a Necklace of Fireballs Type 7 at lvl 3 with craft wondrous item that will have a 7d6 fireball bead in it by increasing the DC by 10. How did the wizard make the item that casts a fireball four levels higher than he could ever cast? How did he do it without fireball? This is not an item that can really be hand waved as coming from a different source than fireball, at least at lvl 3. What seems more reasonable, that a wizard just +10 thought harder to figure out how to make something impossible for his ability, or that the +10 represents the difficulty that a wizard has crafting using a spell cast from another higher level caster helping him make this necklace?
Ring of Three Wishes. Even though the book sets the CL at 20, I will for argument sake say that since the earliest you can cast Wish or Miracle is CL 17, you can make a CL 17 Ring of Three Wishes. So the DC for a lvl 17 wizard who knows Wish and has Craft Ring is DC 23. Now we go to a lvl 7 elven wizard using 20 point buy. He could conceivably have a 20 int to start. We will also say just for grins he has a headband of int +2, bringing that int up to 22. He took skill focus spellcraft as a feat. He took the Theoretical Magician trait to give himself an additional +2 to spellcraft. Whenever this wizard crafts, he casts crafter's fortune to give himself a +5 when he's crafting rings. His skill check is 10 (trained skill) + 6 (int) + 3 (feat) + 2 (trait) + 5 (spell)= 26. Now level 7 wizard needs to increase the DC by 10 to make a Ring of Three Wishes, raising the DC to 33. So, by the description I've heard, the level 7 wizard does not need that level 17 wizard who knows wish in the room with him. This level 7 wizard takes a 10 and gets a 36 on his spellcraft check. Since he could take a 10 to beat the DC on a Ring of Three Wishes, I can only assume that an average challenge for a level 7 wizard is to duplicate the effects of Wish.
I'm the only one that sees a problem with this? GM's in the thread, you would allow this interpretation of must? That the only thing keeping a lvl 7 wizard from having three wishes is money? How does the wizard, conceptually, sit down and duplicate the effects of Wish? The only things that duplicate the effects of Wish are Wish or Miracle. There is no other spell. He just sits down one day and thinks really hard 'Ah, now I get bending all of existence to my will after sitting in this quiet room, but after I'm done making this I guess I'll go back to summoning one medium fire elemental as befits my spell capability.' That's why when it says These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created, all of them have to be there. The guy crafting the item doesn't necessarily have to be the one providing the caster level and spell, but someone standing over his shoulder while he works, has to.
Where did a level 7 wizard get the 97,500 gp he needs to craft it?
Using the standard "not more than 25% on other magic items" suggestion from the Gamemastering chapter, the character should be at least 17th level before being able to afford that.
Dr. Guns-For-Hands:
I think you misunderstand the FAQ.
The Necklace of Fireballs is CL10. This is because Type VI and type VII have 10d6 fireballs. When you are making a Type VI or Type VII Necklace of Fireballs you cannot reduce the CL below 10 because the CL is at minimum already.
BUT, what about a Type I? The CL required there is only 5 so why not reduce the CL to 5 (and thus reduce the DC by 5).
And yes, a level 3 wizard could make it. It is NOT the spell fireball. It does mimic fireball.
Regarding the spell: Necklace of Fireballs is a Wondrous Item that mimics a spell. It is not the spell itself. Perhaps the person making it found a way to incorporate Red Dragon blood into making it. Perhaps the scorched earth of a salamander. We do not know. The rules do not specify 'how' crafters bypass the spell requirement. Only that crafters can.
Ring of Wishes: Yes in THEORY a level 7 wizard can craft a Ring of Three Wishes. However, money is preventing that wizard from doing this.
Once again, yes prerequisites 'must' be met. And once again, two sentances later it says prerequisites can by bypassed by increasing the DC by +5. You cannot ignore that second sentance unless you are making a houserule. Feel free to houserule it.
The rules are: You can craft anything you want (except spell-trigger/spell completion) if you have the money, the feat, and can make the crafting check.
- Gauss
Shar Tahl: You would think that about the word 'must' wouldnt you? So would I. All the way up until 2 sentances later 'must' gets neutered by the sentance that states you can bypass prerequisites by adding +5 to the DC.
- Gauss
Basically I agree with Shar Tahl, but I will always add the caveat "specific overrides general".
So, really, "must" means "is required to, except where otherwise noted". This explains "must meet the prerequisites" as well as "for each prerequisite not met, add +5 to the DC".
And, for the other discussion, CL is the level the item casts at, it is not explicitly listed in the crafting prerequisites in most cases, and so failing to meet the CL does not prevent creation of magic items.
If you want an in-universe hand-wave for it, note that in the majority of cases the item CL is the minimum necessary to cast the spells involved, or have the item creation feat (whichever is higher, yes, there are of course exceptions). The crafter is spending 8 hours a day bending magical energies to his will. If he makes the spellcraft check, he gets the energy to do what he wants. After it has formed as a magical imbuement to the item, that item "casts" at the CL, regardless of the crafter's CL.
Also, try this little psychological exercise for fun: Change the crafting DC from 5 + CL to 15 + CL, with another +5 for every prerequisite beyond the item creation feat and one spell. For every prerequisite that the caster has, reduce the DC by 5.
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I think we should retitle this thread "Let's Complain About Magic Item Creation Without Reading the Rules". (EDIT: That came off kind of harsh. Gauss and co., you're doing an excellent job ^^; ) The goal of the +5 DC rule is to allow people who aren't Wizards or Druids to craft items.
A crafter does not:
1) Need adult supervision from someone of a given CL.
2) Need a buddy on tap who can cast a particular spell.
3) Need to cast, manifest, or sing a song about a given spell.
4) Need racial sensitivity courses to make belts.
As far as the OP: the real problem is that we cannot obey both "must" and "only". Since the "only" is the overriding rule, until it is errataed, all "musts" are at best circumstantial musts.
Hence the devs working on project that will hopefully make threads like this one redundant. <turns off eternal optimist mode>
Personally I think some simple editorial work around the use of "must" and "prerequisite" would sort out 95% of the disagreement about what the crafting rules allow or disallow.
Oh, and I'd ditch the word "craft" and use "enchant" instead. The mundane crafting rules are enough of a mess without also using the term "craft" for magic stuff.
On the ring of three wishes, don't forget the 120 days needed to make it. Whether or not that's a significant limitation is fairly campaign dependent, but at least in most APs 120 days is too long to wait around. (I know there are ways to reduce that though, but then you'd be investing a lot of character resources, so I'm fine with that.)
MagiMaster:
A Ring of Three Wishes has a base price of: 120,000-75,000 = 45,000gp.
* Market Price: the price of the item after all costs are factored in. This is what is listed as the magic item price.
* Base Price: the cost of the magic itself before material components and other material costs are factored in.
* Cost: 1/2 the base price +material costs.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs.
Based on that quote we can calculate the base price as: Market (listed) Price - Material Components = Base Price.
Base Price is what is used in calculating the time to craft.
- Gauss
That's still a month and a half!
Ravingdork: Yup (or 23days using accelerated crafting). :)
- Gauss
I don't buy cost and time as limiting factors. In game, a lvl 1 wizard can spend 100,000 gold if he is given 100,000 gold. No one will stop him til he buys out the store. With time, if he is given one hundred days, he can craft all one hundred days (probably scrolls and potions, but there you go). But a level 1 wizard can never cast a fireball from his own spellbook. No amount of money, time, or skill DC can make this happen. He has to wait until he's a lvl 5 wizard.
I'm the only one who thinks there is something a little odd about interpreting the rules so a lvl 7 wizard can make a Ring of Three Wishes? He can duplicate Wish, matching the power of a 17th level caster, while being ten levels lower than he should?
No red flags raised at all that there is a misinterpretation about the crafting rules? Lvl 7 Wish?
I don't buy cost and time as limiting factors. In game, a lvl 1 wizard can spend 100,000 gold if he is given 100,000 gold. No one will stop him til he buys out the store. With time, if he is given one hundred days, he can craft all one hundred days (probably scrolls and potions, but there you go). But a level 1 wizard can never cast a fireball from his own spellbook. No amount of money, time, or skill DC can make this happen. He has to wait until he's a lvl 5 wizard.
I'm the only one who thinks there is something a little odd about interpreting the rules so a lvl 7 wizard can make a Ring of Three Wishes? He can duplicate Wish, matching the power of a 17th level caster, while being ten levels lower than he should?
No red flags raised at all that there is a misinterpretation about the crafting rules? Lvl 7 Wish?
Nope. It took him 120 days to do it instead of a standard action. :)
Or 98, or 45, whatever your interpretation of the time taken to craft is.
I don't buy cost and time as limiting factors. In game, a lvl 1 wizard can spend 100,000 gold if he is given 100,000 gold. No one will stop him til he buys out the store. With time, if he is given one hundred days, he can craft all one hundred days (probably scrolls and potions, but there you go). But a level 1 wizard can never cast a fireball from his own spellbook. No amount of money, time, or skill DC can make this happen. He has to wait until he's a lvl 5 wizard.
In what situation is a level 1 wizard facing the evil overlord in the wizard's own well-stocked laboratory, funneling weeks of time and thousands in material components into his attempt to hit the overlord with a fireball, all while the overlord stands there staring at him for weeks waiting for him to actually finish his million-round action?
Maybe there are just no rules for it because it's so stupid that the rule would just end up being indistinguishable from "You make an item that does it and then use that."
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Dr. Guns-For-Hands:
No level 7 character will have that much treasure unless the GM chooses to ignore CRB p399 Table 12-4 (WBL table). Now, I realize many people hate that table. Fine. BUT, that is how magic items are balanced in this game. If you want to ignore one section of the game mechanics then feel free to ignore another section that would break as a result of your first decision.
- Gauss
I ignore that table for the most part, but I still wouldn't give a level 7 party 100,000 gp.
And no, there are no red flags because this isn't an interpretation issue. This has been clarified as both RAW and RAI. You might not like it, and you're free to house rule it, but you're not free to say that it's anything other than that.
If neither time nor money is any object, then that's a very campaign specific issue and you'd probably want to house rule things a bit.
Also, consider that many people like the idea of ritual casting. That is, spend a lot more time and money to cast something not in your spellbook.
A wizard with fireball can cast fireball at a moments notice multiple times per day without ever spending a penny on it. A wizard that makes a necklace of fireballs can do it without being able to cast fireball at an added expense of time and money, and then uses it up as soon as they throw those beads. (Or they can spend even more time and money to make something that doesn't get used up.)