I think it would be cool if you could capture a demi-god or other powerful entity and use them as a power source for your dastardly or inspired plans!
(A shtick used in fantasy novels more often than you might think, and as plot devices in some RPGs)
I think it would be cool if you could capture a demi-god or other powerful entity and use them as a power source for your dastardly or inspired plans!
(A shtick used in fantasy novels more often than you might think, and as plot devices in some RPGs)
*innocent look*
Godtraps, anyone?
It may be a bit much for even a wizard 20/archmage 10, but being able to create a full plane (infinite size, permanent, undispellable without equally mythic dispels) would be a cool late-game ability.Actually, even the gods can't make planes of infinite size. The only planes in the PF setting that might be infinite are the Abyss and the Maelstrom - all the rest are finite, though so unbelievable huge that a human mind could never comprehend them.
Also, regarding space travel, greater teleport won't let you teleport to another planet. Only interplanetary teleport (9th-level) can pull that off.
I haven't read any of the Pathfinder-specific cosmology stuff, but at least in 3.5 (the Great Wheel), all full planes were infinite, even the material plane. The Abyss was just infinite in an extra direction.
Also, like I said, that idea is probably too much either way. Being able to create a non-infinite, permanent, undispellable demi-plane would be cool too though.
On-topic with suggestions for mythic abilities:
The ability to create large-area magical fields that can play host to a number of effects (i.e., a mythal).
Paizo doesn't like the idea of infinite planes, so they changed them to 'unimaginably large' instead of infinite.
Personally, I don't want an 'infinitely large' plane. I think it would just be awesome to be able to cast a Mythic spell and create a pseudo world for myself, my friends and family all to live in when I retire. Maybe one with a truly 'timeless' trait. So I can live on the plane forever, but can return to the material when I am needed.
Nex is suspected of doing something very similar to this. It's rumored that Nex found a way to truly become immortal by creating his own plane, and that after Geb's last attack on Nex, he escaped there and lives on to this day. It might be that he did nothing more than cast Greater Create Demi-Plane followed by Permanency a number of times to develop his own Plane however he wished, and gave it the Timeless trait, so as long as he lives on that plane, he won't age or die. But if he ever leaves the plane, he will retro-actively age all the years he was gone.
I'd like to imagine a Mythic Create Demi-plane that allows someone to spend 10,000 years alive on the plane, but when he returns to the Material, he isn't retro-actively aged.
That's kind of weird. Infinite makes a lot more sense to me. (It's simpler mathematically.)
Actually, there is a way to make an effectively, though not technically, infinite plane: if the demiplane you created expanded faster than you can travel, you'd never reach the edge. Of course, you'd pretty much have to ignore teleport, or the speed needed would be way too fast. Still, even fast enough that you could never walk to the edge would probably be too fast even for a mythic spell.
The Demiplane spells don't work like that. Here's the spells. A 20th level Caster using Greater Create Demiplane can create a Demiplane composing of 400, 10 ft cubes. If you want to make your Demiplane any bigger, you have to go to the Demiplane, and cast Create Demiplane (in any of the 3 variants) to expand the plane. Each casting of the spell takes between 2 - 6 hours, so it's not something you'll be doing very quickly.
Think of it almost as a really large Portable Hole with no entrance. A Portable Hole exists by creating an extra-dimensional space, just like the Demiplane spells, but neither of them are infinite or expanding.
James Jacobs recently commented on the change from Infinite to Overwhelmingly Large in his Ask James thread.
In previous editions of the game, the outer planes and the multiverse were basically called "infinite." And that's a concept that isn't accurate, because infinity implies an encompassing of everything. If Heaven is infinite, it's infinitely large and thus would have an infinite amount of contents, which would include all POSSIBLE contents, which means that there would be an infinite number of all the things on other planes and realities in Heaven. There would, for example, be an infinite number of Taco Bells in heaven. Now, obviously, that's not the intent of saying "heaven is an infinite plane," but phrasing it that way allows that argument to hold water.
By instead making the Multiverse and its planes overwhelmingly vast but NOT infinite, we avoid that concept entirely. The multiverse is vast... unimaginably vast... but it's not infinitely large. There is a finite number of things in it.
If you can see Hell's gates from the edge of the Boneyard... that just means, in science speak, that the photons escaping from hell have passed through some sort of portal so that they can reach your eyes.
And another post...
In previous editions of the game, the outer planes and the multiverse were basically called "infinite." And that's a concept that isn't accurate, because infinity implies an encompassing of everything. If Heaven is infinite, it's infinitely large and thus would have an infinite amount of contents, which would include all POSSIBLE contents, which means that there would be an infinite number of all the things on other planes and realities in Heaven. There would, for example, be an infinite number of Taco Bells in heaven. Now, obviously, that's not the intent of saying "heaven is an infinite plane," but phrasing it that way allows that argument to hold water.
This is absolutely wrong.
You can have an infinite amount of apples without having any oranges.
That's not the argument folks were using.
A more accurate apples/oranges analogy would be:
If a region is infinitely large, you can have an infinite number of apples in there AND an infinite number of oranges, and if the region is infinitely large, and thus has infinite possibility for what is in it, then it would by extension have an infinite number of oranges. And carriages and shoes and pteranodons and gravel and slightly smaller gravel and all the rest of everything.
By saying a region is unimaginably large but NOT infinite, it's not as easy for chuckleheads to argue that there must be oranges in that huge mound of apples. Because at the very least you can say there's just no room for oranges.
This is his reasoning behind changing Infinite to Large. Personally, I don't like the idea of Infinite Planes either, because you start coming across problems like, an Infinite number of Demons and Devils with Infinite number of Gates to the Material Plane, and so why haven't the Infinite numbed of Demons and Devils stormed the Material Plane yet?
Well because there is an Infinite number of Celestial warriors combating those Infinite numbers of Demons and Devils. But because the Planes are Infinite, there MUST exists Gates that are controlled by the Evil Outsides to the Material Plane that the Good Outsiders don't know about. At the same time, there must also exists an Infinite number of Gates to every Plane in existence, Heaven, Elysium, Pergatory, Astral etc. So the Infinite Evil Outsiders have Infinite Access to all the Infinite Planes in Infinity.
It kinda resembles movie problems with sequels. Movie A was awesome, so Movie B has to be Bigger, Better and Bolder to make it More Awesome. Movie B wasn't liked as much as Movie A, but still liked well enough, so Movie C has to go even Bigger, even Better and even Bolder to make it more Awesome.
The one advantage that Infinite Planes has over Finite Planes is that on an Infinite Plane, Anything can happen. Where as a Finite Plane has a Finite amount of things happen, but there are enough of those Finite things that to the non-eternal creatures, it appears Infinite.
Quick comment on Infinite Planes: Whats the difference if a plane is several billion(or trillion) miles in area or actually never ending? Though to be fair, I think even several trillion would not fit "so vast mortal minds can not comprehend its size"...
One thing I would like, for casters, is for them to be able to alter spells on the fly, similar to what I imagine the 101 spell variants and the various spell alter feat books from SGGs do. This would be especially useful to spontaneous casters, though prepared ones would obviously benefit a lot as well.
For those who can sneak attack, which I assume would all be Tricksters, the ability to sneak attack the few things that still remain immune, and override the various partial immunities to sneak attacks would be a good ability. Same with Champions and criticals.
I agree that siphoning off a trapped demi-god's power would be freakin sweet, but that might be a bit beyond this book, as that seems like the function of an adventure/module which could include the rules on how to actually do it.
A mythic jumping ability for martial focused characters would be nice.
Several Billion or Trillion miles isn't actually all that big. When you think about it, the distance between the Earth and Sun is about 92 Million miles. Sure, that's not a Billion or Trillion, but it's a huge distance.
A 'Light Year' is 5.8 Trillion Miles. The Milky Way is approximately 100,000 Light Years in diameter. So the Milky Way is approximately 580 Thousand-Trillion Miles in Diameter. There is a reason why, after a certain point, people stop referring to numerical names (like Million or Billion) and instead saying X to the nth degree, or 58 to the 19th (58^19) degree in this case, I believe.
And that's just our Galaxy which is on the small side. The Material Plane encompasses the Golarion Solar System, and the Galaxy Golarion's Solar System is found in, and the other Galaxies. That's all just One plane. It is 'Overwhelmingly Large' but it's not Infinite.
But, to answer your question. The size of a Plane that is measured in several trillion miles, compared to an Infinite plane, will be no different to a person who isn't truly capable of comprehending a Trillion miles.
Really, what it comes down to is nothing more or less GM choice. If a GM wants Infinite plans, it's Infinite planes, if he doesn't they're not. A 10, Trillion Mile diameter plane is effectively Infinite for all intents and purposes regarding someone traveling that Plane. Short of that person being truly Immortal, he will never see the entire Plane.
[Edit] Take all the Sci-Fi staples of our times, like Star Wars, Star Trek and Firefly (I consider it a legendary universe). Almost the entirety of the Star Was books (and all the movies) takes place in just One Galaxy . True, some of the books venture outside of the Galaxy, and they encounter creatures from another Galaxy, but they don't really travel to another Galaxy to the best of my knowledge.
At the beginning of the movies, they start with "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." meaning it's not even our Galaxy, and it happened "a long time ago". So everything we've ever seen, is in the past. Star Wars is nearly infinite in what can happen, but it all takes place in one galaxy on, what would be, their Material Plane.
Star Trek has some dimensional fun (alternate realities, time travel, the Q, etc) but that all takes place One Galaxy (our own Galacy btw). They don't go and visit the Andromeda Galaxy (which is larger than our own) or any other Galaxy out there. Star Trek is also a 'effectively infinite' when it comes to the chances of something happen. But it's still only happening on their Material Plane.
It's also been implied that Golarion, Star Wars, Star Trek etc, could all exist on the same Material Plane as each other, because the Material Plane is 'Overwhelmingly Large'.
I think enough nerding out is going on in this post. I may expand on it more later.
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First, a nit pick. It's 5.8 * 10^19, not 58^19. Sometimes that's written as 5.8e19 though. (Type the two into Windows calculator to see the difference.)
Second, both you and JJ sound like you're misunderstanding the concept of infinity, or rather adding a lot of extra baggage to what is, by itself, a simple concept.
For example, why don't an infinite number of demons invade the material plane? Well, they do, but an infinite number of things spread over an infinite volume implies nothing about the density. So, an infinite number of demons invade the material plane, and you might get about 1 per planet. (An infinite number of planets times 1 demon per planet is an infinite number of demons.)
Before the obvious comment, if the world the campaign is on is the only inhabited world in an infinite material plane, that raises more questions on its own than the infinite demons do. But even in that case, an infinite number of demons fighting an infinite number of angels can come out to any number you want. (Infinity minus infinity isn't well defined.)
Now, the apples and oranges thing. You can have an infinite plane of apples. Just apples. Its size being infinite implies nothing about its contents. The infinite plane of apples might actually only have two apples in it. (Just one and it'd be the infinite plane of apple.) No oranges anywhere in sight. An infinitely large plane with just apples in it could not have anything happen there.
If you want to get quantum about this and say that there's a slight chance of an apple spontaneously changing into an orange, well, that's true enough in the real world (assuming an infinite plane of apples existed in the real world), but it's not necessarily true in a fantasy game where an infinite plane of apples could exist. After all, it's the plane of apples. Why would there be an orange there?
If you still want quantum oranges in the infinite plane of apples, there's still a problem. It will happen, and it will happen an infinite number of times, but now you have to talk about the expected density of oranges. Because the probability of such a change is so low, the average orange will be exceedingly rare, as in unimaginably vast distances between any two oranges (on average). So yes, if you accept that quantum mechanics applies to other planes of existence, then anything can happen, but it's not like you'll actually see it happen. Such events will be too far apart.
Again before obvious comments about quantum mechanics being irrelevant, I'd like to point out that the same argument would apply to examples such as why wouldn't some demon skip the war and go hang out in Elysium. Well, either demons don't do that, meaning even with infinitely many demons none of them leave, or that some would, but then you have to consider not how many do (still infinitely many) but how dense the demons on Elysium would be (extremely sparse).
Now, I like infinite planes better because of three things. First, there's no edge. (Ok, so a finite plane can have no edge too by wrapping it around, which is also fun.) Second, because it doesn't matter how far you go in any one direction, there's always more in that direction. (Not that that's ever come up, but I'm imagining a wizard with interplanetary teleportation trying to get as far away as possible.) Third, because paradoxically, an unimaginably large plane is harder to imagine than an infinite plane (but I realize that that's probably only true for mathematically minded people, if not just for mathematicians).
Slightly more on topic, I know that's not how create demiplane works. It would be neat if a mythic version expanded on its own, at whatever rate the devs feel is balanced.
As to my point about the Infinite Invasion; we know that there are gates into and out of Hell and that Devils occupy Hell, since the Devils occupy Hell, and there are Gates into and out of Hell and Hell is Infinite, therefore, there must be an Infinite number of Gates and an Infinite number of Devils.
Since there are Infinite Devils and Infinite Gates there must be an Infinite number of Gates that lead to Golarion and there must also be an Infinite number of Gates leading to Golarion that also have an Infinite number of Devils that are invading Golarion right at this moment.
But there isn't. Why? Because Hell is Finite and therefore, everything on the plane is Finite.
At the same time, if something is Infinite, you also have to think about the alignment. Hell, for example, is Lawful Evil, so one could argue that since the entire plane is Lawful and the entire Plane is Evil, there is only Lawful Evil on the plane. Why? Because the Lawful aspect forces only creatures of Law and Evil to truly be able to inhabit the plane (as the Law is the Law).
Chaotic Evil planes like the Abyss are different. Sure, you would think everything there is Evil, but since it's also Chaotic, and Chaotic means it doesn't follow any rules, it is able to break the rule of being Evil. So in an infinite Chaotic Evil plane, you will be able to truly find beings of all alignments living.
Like I said, I'm personally like the idea of the Planes being Finite more then Infinite. Some of this is because of Infinite possibilities, but also because of Infinite Hope. By that I mean, if your Hero knows Hell has a set amount of Devils in it, and the Plane isn't Infinite, then you know that it's possible for the Hell to one day be defeated. However, if you know Hell is Infinite, and therefore, has an Infinite supply of Devils, you know that your are fighting a hopeless fight that will never see an end.
A Paladin of the Forgotten Realms can't say that one day they will wipe the planes free of Devils and Demons, because that isn't possible. But that is, technically, possible of Golarion. It won't ever happen, but if something is possible, then it can be achieved. An impossibility is an impossibility.
Also, thread jack or what?
Mythic Body: your hands and feet become Masterwork and can be directly enchanted.
** spoiler omitted **
As one example, maybe portals can only be stretched so far and only portals within a certain area can reach Golarion. Then, while the plane is infinite, only that finite area needs to be considered when talking about demons invading Golarion.
The idea that because a chaotic evil plane is chaotic somehow implied that there would be good or even lawful creatures there (other than invaders) doesn't work either. A chaotic planar trait has the same mechanics as a lawful, evil or good trait. Non-chaotic creatures don't like being there and would generally leave. Being on an infinite plane doesn't change that.
Also, it's still possible to want to clear all the demons out of an infinite hell. You just have to be a bit more creative about it. (Really though, you'd need the same creativity to clear out an unimaginably vast plane due to them repopulating while you weren't looking. So no one will be able to simply fight off all the demons in either case.)
Mythical races! I want to play as the dragon, not slay them!
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
You'd have to find a way to prevent evil souls from coming to the Abyss, and then where would they go? This would probably piss off Pharasma into the bargain.
Maybe find a way to prevent larvae from ever advancing into demons, resulting in an Abyss full of eternally powerless worms?
Ideas for destroying all demons:
- Make a deal with Pharasma to send evil souls elsewhere
- Kill all the leaders (there don't have to be infinitely many leaders) and then start a civil war
- Destroy the plane itself (maybe by ramming another plane in to it, or creating an expanding antilife field [assuming that works on demons])
It's a long term goal.
Cure Slightly Dead Wounds: the heirophant can use cure spells on a target that has been dead for X rounds; if the target's hp go above negative Con, the target is returned to life with no negative levels.
...James Jacobs recently commented on the change from Infinite to Overwhelmingly Large in his Ask James thread.
** spoiler omitted **
Ugh, just ugh. He can argue against infinite planes as a personal preference, but that was just painfully bad logic (even if it was arguing against even more painfully bad logic, like the Taco Bells). The even and odd integers are a prime example that an infinitely large collection of anything doesn't have to contain everything. They're both infinitely large, and neither set contains even a single element of each other. One could have an infinitely flat plane with no mountains, if one wanted a geographical example.
His logic seemed to be more of "We're going to stop this bag logic arguments by simply not making the planes Infinite" problem solved.
Yeah. Even in that thread just now, bad mathematicians would not stop making those arguments, so I can see why JJ decided to clear the board.
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Ideas for destroying all demons:
- Make a deal with Pharasma to send evil souls elsewhere
- Kill all the leaders (there don't have to be infinitely many leaders) and then start a civil war
- Destroy the plane itself (maybe by ramming another plane in to it, or creating an expanding antilife field [assuming that works on demons])It's a long term goal.
WE HAVE AN EXCELLENT PLAN TO GET RID OF THOSE ANNOYING "DEMONS".
A Mythic book should allow you to be well, mythic.
Let's look at some actual myths for examples:
Gilgamesh, the barbarian, walking on the bottom of the ocean holding his breath.
Saruman, the monkey-god monk, jumping so high he can dance on the clouds.
Hermes, rogue messenger of the gods, moving so fast as to not be seen.
A Mythic book should allow you to be well, mythic.
Let's look at some actual myths for examples:
Gilgamesh, the barbarian, walking on the bottom of the ocean holding his breath.
Saruman, the monkey-god monk, jumping so high he can dance on the clouds.
Hermes, rogue messenger of the gods, moving so fast as to not be seen.
Hermes was a god....
A Mythic book should allow you to be well, mythic.
Let's look at some actual myths for examples:
Gilgamesh, the barbarian, walking on the bottom of the ocean holding his breath.
Saruman, the monkey-god monk, jumping so high he can dance on the clouds.
Hermes, rogue messenger of the gods, moving so fast as to not be seen.
Hermes was a god....
Depends on who you ask. Sometimes he was described as just the messenger of the gods but not a god himself.
Here's an idea for a low tier mythic ability:
Sage: Whenever you make a Knowledge check, you may use your highest bonus in any knowledge skill for the check, regardless of the knowledge skill begin asked for in the check.
Yeah, while sometimes various interpretations can make Greek mythology a little murky. . . this is not one of those times. Hermes was the son of Zeus and Maia (a direct child of Atlas) which pretty much makes him a flat-out god by any way it's measured in Greek myth. His grandparents on both sides of the family were Titans. Straight-up divinity right there.
But to contribute and not be entirely contrary, Hermes had his own children which could definitely qualify as Mythic characters, right up there with the children of the Olympians. Like:
Pan - though this is case where the god/demigod status is a little more contested.
Priapus - no comment.
Autolycus - Prince of Thieves. Rogue 10+/Trickster Tier 5+. I think so. He eventually even sires a long and proud line of Mythic Trickster types; he's the grandfather of Odysseus.
Echion and Eurytus - both Argonauts.
Aethalides - Herald of the Argonauts. He even inherited his father's divine brain (much like many of Hermes' children). Not only clever, he never forgot anything. Not even the waters of Lethe, in death, could take away his memories.
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WE HAVE AN EXCELLENT PLAN TO GET RID OF THOSE ANNOYING "DEMONS".Ideas for destroying all demons:
- Make a deal with Pharasma to send evil souls elsewhere
- Kill all the leaders (there don't have to be infinitely many leaders) and then start a civil war
- Destroy the plane itself (maybe by ramming another plane in to it, or creating an expanding antilife field [assuming that works on demons])It's a long term goal.
No, thank you that plan has some downsides...
On a more constructive note, since rulebreaking is already planned I would suggest some ways to fight incorporal and ethereal enemies without access to the right magic.
I can just see a high-tier mythic fighter punching a hole into the ethereal plane and pulling the creature out.
I can just see a high-tier mythic fighter punching a hole into the ethereal plane and pulling the creature out.
You know, this actually makes me kind of look forward to what AM BARBARIAN will be able to do with RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I mean, he already has a Lance that Pierces the Heavens IIRC.
Put "The Test of the Starstone" in the Mythic Adventures book. Let there be an outlet for Mythic Characters who want to become Gods, Demiurges, and etc.
Beyond that, provide some guidelines/quests for methods of achieving eternal transcendence beyond simply riding the Starstone; e.g. Divine fiat, magical spell (ala Nethys), profane snuggling with the Outer Gods.
Stuff like that.
So.... Any news on the play test?
So.... Any news on the play test?
Early october, which hopefully means in about 20 minutes.
So.... Any news on the play test?Early october, which hopefully means in about 20 minutes.
Getting close on Mythic now, the end of the playtest document is in sight. After that, it is off to editing and layout. Must remain focused.. must not obsess over looking for the delivery driver with my new phone.. must remain focused.
The above was posted 2 hours ago on Facebook, as of 1:21 PM Alaska Time on October 2nd.