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I'm starting this thread at Erik's suggestion there be someplace for suggestions.
Note that this is for suggestions. If you want to give your opinion about mythic rules, please do it over in the Mythic Adventures thread.
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Aside: this is based on the rules for invisibility, not pulled out of some obscure part of my anatomy :)
I'd like for things that are currently absolutes to have a way to overcome them. For example, take one of my pet peeves, freedom of movement:
freedom of movement: ... All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
That always has really bugged me for years. Contrast it with invisibility:
invisibility: ... If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.
So, instead of "you can never see an invisible creature," it's "an invisible creature gets +40 on Stealth checks." Thus, if you've got Oculus Prime with his +100 Perception, he will see the invisible character even if typical mortals don't. Which makes sense, unlike Groteus the Grappler with his +100 CMB failing to grab someone just because they've got freedom of movement running.
Edit: Oh, shoot, I forgot the final bit, the actual suggestion!
There should be an ability that can overcome this - for example, if you're a mythic caster, that little "all" in "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information..." becomes "The subject gains a +20 on saving throws," for example.
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My main suggestion is to make sure it gives Martials a chance to really shine. I want mythic rules to give me abilities where the arguement of thats not realistic doesn't work.
Hmmm... An ability that allows a character to combine multiple iterative attacks or skills into one action, or cast (or combine?) multiple spells at the same time.
Dotted. . . times 100.
I'll try to contribute something useful in the morning.
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- Foes the size of a town that you can enter and climb on. Cannot be defeated by regular combat
- Spells that require rare components and longer casting times that affect large areas. Baba Yaga cold kinda stuff. PCs have to reverse it.
- Fairly simple spells that are for mythic reasons not trivial. Snow White falling asleep, and requiring a specific trigger to wake kinda stuff. Could be Geas, body swapping, curse, but not undoable with a simple standard action.
- Generally spell casting that is harder to pull off but much more persistent, or larger in range, etc. NOT talking about damaging/combat spells here.
- Ways to scale opponents up in logical ways to allow fighting scores of them. Like swarm rules for non tiny creatures. Wanna fight 5000 orcs?
- Somewhat already covered by ways to make specific opponents invulnerable, or much harder to defeat via regular combat. Need to find their weaknesses, or generally be smart to defeat them.
- An area of Golarion where you can go nuts with this stuff and not break the world!!
- Abilities that are learned from grand masters that are out of the scope of the normal characters.
- Direct connection with Dieties who grant boons specific to the particular character.
- Ways to make spell casting more customised to your character without necessarily boosting its power.
- Ways to give powerful abilities that also have downsides when used too much or at all. Eg you can cast at +3CL but your spells are less reliable due to your immense power.
I'll have some more later......
And my personal favourite from BECMI days, an elven fortress hidden behind a waterfall :-) OK mayby not mythic but who wouldn't want one of those!!!
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I will second the have to find the method to deafeat a Mythic creature. And in a more potent form than DR if its just DR then it can be overcome unless its a super number and then its just a target for magic.
I'm thinking something like having a creature be only vulnerable to something thats rarity is based off of how mythic it is. Such as having a powerful undead that can only be beaten if your weapon was dipped in water blessed by a priest during a certain holy festival.
Whoa big topic... here is my immediate wishlist:
I'm hoping to be able to create immortal non-casters with some supernatural abilities, like plane shift, mind blank, create demiplanes and such. This is for characters that approach divinity, but are not demigods yet.
T'm hoping to see mostly templates for the monsters to maximize utility and mileage. Unique mythic monsters should IMO be setting specific anyway.
Check out the Super Genius Simple Monster Templates for ideas. An excellent source!
Don't make mythic items feat dependent, or require sacrificing characer abilities to use. Use the pc/npc gear value and reward systems for balancing.
I hope we'll see a chapter section on how to create mythic adventures, and maintain setting integrity.
The "Beyond..." articles in the APs is always my favorite section - something like that, not a cheesy Galactus-of-the-week random table. Myths are after all great stories, which usually is Paizo's greatest strength.
Oh, and I wholeheartedly support more elven fortresses hidden behind a waterfalls, and other ideas mined from BECMI.
I mainly have only a couple of things I would love to see.
- As Alan_Beven suggested a way to fight one against a lot of enemies (for a small group to hordes).
- An option to implement thr mythic rules in a way that a character may only have the mythic levels and maybe 1 or 2 mythic items and be fully functioning in modules and AP.
A lot of the other ideas posted here seem also really interesting, but those are my main interests.
OK some more:
- Some sort of reputation or followers system. A way for your characters powers to be driven in some way by the numbers of people following/worshipping the character.
- A way to enable the emotions and beliefs of a character or NPC to become powerful enough to take on magical effects. For example, Saints or other powerful clergys remains can become relics. Particularly evil humans may be driven by hatred and end up with mythic powers as a result even if they are not spell casters. Kind of an expansion of the Sin magic concepts.
Well, given that it's all about mythological level stories, there are plenty of myths that can't be replicated as is.
On the magic side, each of the main spell statistics could be given a mythic bump (though I'm sure these have already been considered):
- Expand area to target a whole city or even a whole nation (put a town to sleep, or grease a whole mountain range ;) )
- Expand duration to contingent (put someone to sleep until a specific condition is met). This should make the spell immune to non-mythic dispelling.
- Expand range to... not sure, but throwing a fireball half-way around the world (or to the next one) sounds pretty mythic.
- Overcome targeting limitations either increasing the size limits or increasing the number effected or changing the target category.
- Saving throws and spell resistance. A big bonus to DR and penetration would be in line with other bonuses mentioned (though the opponent might have a mythic ability to bump their saves or SR).
- Overcome the limits on the duration of creation and summoning effects. Cast a mythic major creation and make it stick.
- Allow spells to alter the layout of the major planes, if only temporarily. (Say by making the local area coexistent with your favorite outer plane.)
On the martial side:
- Raise the range of an arrow to anything in sight.
- Target multiple opponents with each shot.
- Auto-crit an object and ignore its hardness (so you can cut right through a steel pole or brick wall).
- Drastically raise your carrying capacity for a while (so you can carry the golden statue out of the dungeon on your back).
- Raise the range and weight limit of thrown objects.
- Depending on the types of myths involved, pulling a weapon out of mid-air wouldn't be inappropriate.
- Flash step (move fast enough to nearly recreate the effects of dimension door).
- Knockback (send mooks flying)
On the skill side, every skill has the potential for many mythic uses, similar to the epic skill checks from 3.5:
- Open a lock by hitting it just right (swift action)
- Run up a wall with acrobatics or climb
- Bluff a crowd well enough that they actually see it (replicating some illusions)
- Complete a lengthy crafting project overnight (happens a lot in mythology)
- Resurrect yourself by escaping death (ok, silly example)
- Use stealth to hide yourself in an open area in broad daylight
- Swim up a waterfall
- Learn a language just by hearing a few words (possibly only temporarily)
- Hide things in a temporary non-dimensional space with sleight of hand ("Where were you hiding that?")
- Counterspell a spell with only a spellcraft check and the right word or gesture.
It would be awesome to have some non-silly rules for above-colossal creatures, especially in how that relates to things like death effects, critical hit feats, etc. Perhaps these things are limited to five size differences (e.g your halfling barbarian can use Stunning Critical on a colossal creature, but not on a titanic one).
Perhaps there's a mythic version of CMB/CMD that applies for mythic creatures/kaiju that applies when a no-save spell is used. Jormungandr is very unlikely to even notice your puny antilife shell unless you're one hell of a caster.
And perhaps there's some sort of graduated effect. Sure, you just cast prismatic sphere, but stepping on a little painful marble isn't going to send Godzilla to another plane or turn him to stone even if he fails his save, but it'll probably hurt his foot.
Stuff like that would add some sense to really big creatures.
About the mythic points thingy... Maybe this should be an extension of the existing hero points system from APG (?). I imagine it would be awkward to use both systems.
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Some way for martial characters to heal/remove ability damage/raise the dead.
I'm thinking fast-healing, regen, or "Lazarus Touch" style abilities.
Allowing for "mix-and-match" style of play. A high level elf wizard takes up archery, and become the Mythic Archer Guy. He's got the spells of a regular wizard, but the bow skills of Erastil, or something like that.
Talking/Working With the "heralds of the gods". I'm thinking things like "The Grim White Stag" or somesuch.
Huge area of effect type stuff. Mythic Witches hexing entire cities/colonies, Mythic Clerics healing whole towns of illness.
Teleportation type abilities available for Rogue-ish/Monk-ish types. Either "port and smack" style tricks a la Nightcrawler, or "Get out of Dodge" tricks for when they get spotted.
Feats of strength / endurance, like the Trials of Hercules.
Mythic adventures written so you feel like you're really playing Odysseus/Jason/Bellerophon.
Some method to casually add metamagic on the fly.
- Ways to scale opponents up in logical ways to allow fighting scores of them. Like swarm rules for non tiny creatures. Wanna fight 5000 orcs?
I'd like this, even for non-Mythic rules. 3.5 had a similar "Mob" template from one of the splat books (The urban book maybe, or DMG2?)
Maybe not necessarily 5000 orcs, but what about a mob of 20? Or, from BECMI, a Horde creatures (extraplanar creature made of up hundreds or thousands of smaller creatures controlled by a hivemind)
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Just some ideas:
-Ways for characters to recover from negative conditions, like removing negative levels with pure willpower (accompanied by a typical DBZ animation) or a destroying a wall of force with your bare hands (ignoring hardness or something like that)
-Destroying the world - or saving it. And by that I mean cracking Golaron open like a ripe melon.
-Adding more negative hit points before you die, and maybe the option to fight when you are unter 0 HP
-SR option for everybody
-Immortality for everyone - just become legendary and fade into memory.
-Permanently transform into monsters like dragons (maybe as an alternative form)
-short term access to spells not yet in reach or maybe complete out or reach (like a level 15 magus getting some way to cast limited wish)
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+1 to the following:
- Kaiju rules (Colossal+++ creatures need some mythic abilities to ignore area effects that can't hit a significant portion of them)
- Being able to take any mythic path with any character (although my wizard will definitely be taking archmage :P )
- Overcoming conditions without spells
Also, a martial character should be able to deflect targeted spells with their hands or weapons. They should probably also be able to do the anime trick of slicing into an oncoming area effect to avoid it without moving.
Oh yeah, and there should definitely be a craft artifact ability in there somewhere.
A lot of this stuff is what I liked about the ELH's feats. Things like Exceptional Deflection (deflect any ranged attack including spells needing a ranged touch attack) and Reflect Arrows (deflecting the attack on you back at the attacker) are exactly why I like 3.5e's epic rules.
I'd also like to see some examples of mythic skill usage. You should be able to do some really cool stuff when your skill bonuses start breaking +40 or +50. Legendary stuff like the things you see in, for example, many martial arts movies (Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Kung Fu Hustle come to mind).
Another thing #1: Something needs to be done about critical hits and critical hit effects.
There's more and more ways to become immune to critical hits, which is okay, but if freakin' Rovagug is smacking you I think he might score a critical hit, regardless of the fact that you're an elemental or a sorcerer with one of the nifty capstone abilities.
Seems to me like rather than inventing a new mechanic, why not just use the current CMB mechanic - if you have a critical threat, you must succeed on a CMB check against an effective CMD = defender's CMD + 40 (I'm sure their mythic levels will already factor into CMD).
Note that the same isn't true of elemental damage but should be true of sneak attack damage. After all, a fire elemental isn't going to be burned, no matter how powerful the opponent.
Another thing #2: Mythic energy types/poisons/etc. would be cool.
Nuclear flame (see Godzilla, nuclear explosions, and the sun) would damage even creatures immune to fire. Superacids would damage even creatures immune to acid. Radiation sickness would make even cretures immune to disease ill, etc. The point of this isn't to create an arms race, it's to make non-mythic creatures with immunities susceptible to mythic creatures.
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I really like the idea of Colossus+ creatures. Maybe a couple new size categories like:
Massive (40 ft)
Gigantic (50 ft)
Titanic (60 ft)
Behemothic (80 ft)
I've been working on having a dungeon-is-the-monster dungeon for a bit now. I think it'll be very fun.
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Another thing #1: Something needs to be done about critical hits and critical hit effects.
There's more and more ways to become immune to critical hits, which is okay, but if freakin' Rovagug is smacking you I think he might score a critical hit, regardless of the fact that you're an elemental or a sorcerer with one of the nifty capstone abilities.
Seems to me like rather than inventing a new mechanic, why not just use the current CMB mechanic - if you have a critical threat, you must succeed on a CMB check against an effective CMD = defender's CMD + 40 (I'm sure their mythic levels will already factor into CMD).
Note that the same isn't true of elemental damage but should be true of sneak attack damage. After all, a fire elemental isn't going to be burned, no matter how powerful the opponent.
Another thing #2: Mythic energy types/poisons/etc. would be cool.
Nuclear flame (see Godzilla, nuclear explosions, and the sun) would damage even creatures immune to fire. Superacids would damage even creatures immune to acid. Radiation sickness would make even cretures immune to disease ill, etc. The point of this isn't to create an arms race, it's to make non-mythic creatures with immunities susceptible to mythic creatures.
A new mechanic might not be the best choice (maybe as an alternative rule) maybe make it a mystic ability where even if the enemy is immune to critical hits you can still get the critical effect from your feats.
Or maybe an ability or spell to temporarily give the enemy a new weak spot that allows critical hits on nat 20.Regarding immunities, in 3.5 we already had some feats or class abilities that let the caster ignore immunity or turn it into a resistance. I don't think thats tooo much fun.
We already have abilties that kinda solve the problem, like flamestrike. Since half the damage is raw divine power it even deals 50 % damage to fire elementals.
So you could give the mystic caster classes to turn half their damage into raw arcane/raw divine damage. Or just add the effect to the mystic fireball.
Regarding radiation sickness, it would most likely just force fort checks and deal con damage - the most recent AP volume has some new skymetal like that IIRC.
I really like the idea of Colossus+ creatures. Maybe a couple new size categories like:
Massive (40 ft)
Gigantic (50 ft)
Titanic (60 ft)
Behemothic (80 ft)I've been working on having a dungeon-is-the-monster dungeon for a bit now. I think it'll be very fun.
They probably will have new size categories for Kaiju and similar creatures but I think James Jacobs has said before that they won't scale in a similar fashion to the previous size categories.
Even at "Titanic" (60 or 80 ft), the fact that you have a 500 ft long beast that only takes up 12 squares to a side and only moves 10 squares a round (a snail's pace, really) is a little ridiculous. In fact, I'm pretty sure James isn't even a fan of Colossal and how it currently works.
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From Zero to Hero in no time flat.
zero to hero just like that...
Way to play non-zero hit dice races. (Minotour, Dragon, Giant, ect).
Mythic 1 should increase stats to a 25 point buy (if not there already).
Some of the benefits of the big six items should be moved to a mythic level based progression. Let mythic 4 give resistance 4. Mythic heros have flavorful magic items, not cloaks of resistance +4.
Let martial classes generate freeform effects based on stats (maybe something like exalteds stunt system).
Have mythic feats enable some kind of limited freeform magic system. See the water singer bard archetype from ARG for an example.
Mythic heroes should get max hit points per level.
Look at how skills interact with mythic levels. Should classes get increased numbers of skill points? Should there be mythic uses to skills? Should these mythic uses be limited to class skills?
Arch casters need to have some of the here is the rarer and more powerful type of magic vibe. You also need to explain why the worlds archmges are averaging wizard 12/ archmage 6 and how the rare wizard 20 caster fits in.
My mystic necromancer needs to command a legion of undead.
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They probably will have new size categories for Kaiju and similar creatures but I think James Jacobs has said before that they won't scale in a similar fashion to the previous size categories.
Even at "Titanic" (60 or 80 ft), the fact that you have a 500 ft long beast that only takes up 12 squares to a side and only moves 10 squares a round (a snail's pace, really) is a little ridiculous. In fact, I'm pretty sure James isn't even a fan of Colossal and how it currently works.
I'd say the size-to-speed-to-5'step thing is already strained in the current system. It works okay for Large and maybe Huge, but once you get to Gargantuan and Colossal you have creatures who can't move the size of their body in 6 seconds and who can't shift any more than a 6'-tall human. If we're going to have Titanic creatures, they need to be able to cover ground quickly if only because their legs are longer, and they need to be able to take some mighty big "5' steps."
Exactly. I'm hoping it's one of the first things addressed with the new rules when the playtest is released. A new system for Gargantuan+ creatures is something I could use for my current game right now.
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some of mine have already been said so I'll just second these ideas.
-"monster-as-a-dungeon": having played in a warhammer 40k Deathwatch game recently where we took out a tyranid hive ship I can definitely say I WANT THIS IN PATHFINDER!!!
-Playing non-zero hit dice monsters. I actually remember my first 3.5 character being a Dragon, so it would be nice to have the ability to do that again.
-Mythic Level familiars. I have seen a lot of stories where people have dragons and dijinn as companions/familiars so a way to recreate that would be awesome.
-Something to allow Fighters and other martial types to get some form of super natural abilities to cut down on martial caster disparity.
-rules for creating and crafting artifact weapons.
-Inherent Enhancement Bonuses to cut down on magic item bloat and allow for more epic story based items/minor artifacts.
Another thing #1: Something needs to be done about critical hits and critical hit effects.
There's more and more ways to become immune to critical hits, which is okay, but if freakin' Rovagug is smacking you I think he might score a critical hit, regardless of the fact that you're an elemental or a sorcerer with one of the nifty capstone abilities.
Seems to me like rather than inventing a new mechanic, why not just use the current CMB mechanic - if you have a critical threat, you must succeed on a CMB check against an effective CMD = defender's CMD + 40 (I'm sure their mythic levels will already factor into CMD).
Note that the same isn't true of elemental damage but should be true of sneak attack damage. After all, a fire elemental isn't going to be burned, no matter how powerful the opponent.
A new mechanic might not be the best choice (maybe as an alternative rule) maybe make it a mystic ability where even if the enemy is immune to critical hits you can still get the critical effect from your feats.
Or maybe an ability or spell to temporarily give the enemy a new weak spot that allows critical hits on nat 20.
Which is a new mechanic, just one different than the one I proposed :)
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I'm hoping for as few new mechanics as possible. The high-level game is a tough sell as it is, I want more powerful options, not added complexity.
@Snotlord: You should check out the discussion in this other thread, which is discussing mythic rules.
As much as I dislike deities, I'd like to see deicide mechanics...or at least rewards for a successful annihilation.
An idea for a Golarion scenario could be something along the lines of a powerful lich passing on his/her notes to a favored apprentice who succeeds, but is unable to return to the phylactery thanks to Pharasma's intervention. The next step is kicking in the Boneyard's door and raiding the plane in hopes of rescuing the would-be-lich. Things go wrong, party is outclassed, retreat and research until the group is ready to go toe-to-toe with the goddess of death.
Actually, I think even with mythic rules the idea is that full gods will be pretty much untouchable. Demon Lords, Harbringers, etc yes, but you won't be taking on Pharasma on her home plane.
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Actually, I think even with mythic rules the idea is that full gods will be pretty much untouchable. Demon Lords, Harbringers, etc yes, but you won't be taking on Pharasma on her home plane.
Well maybe the big gods are untouchable - at least adding ELH material - but there is at least one god that should be fair game in the end:
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsi ders/achaekek-the-mantis-god
Small point from me, its great for people to be all my dads Zeuss, angel with memory problems, divine vessel of so and so, etc.
Please have options for "normal" people, the I REALLY AM THIS GOOD!!!, my years of long study at the hidden temple helped my so much, or the twenty years of my life devoted to the Flesh Eating Scribe taught me great power, guys.
I really like this concept of the characters being better than average, but please find a way extend it past being only supernatural or otherworldly in origin.
Small point from me, its great for people to be all my dads Zeuss, angel with memory problems, divine vessel of so and so, etc.
Please have options for "normal" people, the I REALLY AM THIS GOOD!!!, my years of long study at the hidden temple helped my so much, or the twenty years of my life devoted to the Flesh Eating Scribe taught me great power, guys.
I really like this concept of the characters being better than average, but please find a way extend it past being only supernatural or otherworldly in origin.
I agree. I had posted ideas above about both Grandmaster training and also just super heightened emotions allowing superhuman feats. I also really would like to see these sorts of things.
I recommend providing some ways around more conditional immunities, and mitigating some currently scary absolute effects (such as overcoming freedom of movement, reducing the effectiveness of mage's disjunction and flesh to stone, and otherwise helping characters who specialize to not become utterly powerless when they run up against those with blanket immunities and negations).
I also recommend increasing the scope and scale of powers, affecting larger areas at longer ranges. Eliminate logistical problems for skill-users and physical fighters, such as allowing them to skill-check their way through terrain problems and nasty spell effects.
Finally, for some general accomplishments I would like to see achievable... demigods and lesser deities should be realistic campaign-ending foes (depending on at exactly what point one wishes to end a campaign). Likewise for smaller-end demon lords, arch-devils, Eldest, and elemental lords. Heroes should be able to brush aside debilitating conditions temporarily, perhaps even ignoring death itself at the highest levels long enough to achieve something important. More reliable, farther-reaching versions of existing class abilities all around should be available, such as no-save versions of certain spells and powers. Add guaranteed partial effects to all sorts of actions, such as spells that are normally negated with a save and attack rolls and opposed skill checks.
Small point from me, its great for people to be all my dads Zeuss, angel with memory problems, divine vessel of so and so, etc.
Please have options for "normal" people, the I REALLY AM THIS GOOD!!!, my years of long study at the hidden temple helped my so much, or the twenty years of my life devoted to the Flesh Eating Scribe taught me great power, guys.
I really like this concept of the characters being better than average, but please find a way extend it past being only supernatural or otherworldly in origin.
Yes, the badass normal needs some love too.
Some great suggestions so far. One of the goals for Mythic Rules, I imagine, will be for Paizo to be able to properly stat out many of their high-powered NPCs in Golarion. I know the rulebooks are setting-neutral but they're still going to need to use these rules to emulate these guys. I figure that's a decent benchmark for what we can look forward to when it comes to available powers.
Off the top of my head we have:
Nex
Geb
Alaznist
Xanderghul
Sorshen
Baba Yaga
Tar-Baphon
Artokus
Jatembe
Kortash Khain
Walkena
Savith
and I'm sure there are a few more I'm forgetting.
So, going with that list, a quick look at the Pathfinder Wiki shows the kinds of things these people are/were capable of. My suggestion - I want to be able to make characters that can rival some of the feats achieved by the above. I only say "some of" because I'm trying to be realistic in my expectations. As villain NPCs I'm aware that some of the above (Tar-Baphon) have risen even slightly higher than the Mythic Path 10 limit so that they can be used as BBEGs. For those guys, I also suggest Mythic monster templates to help us create our own (super-lich or super-mummy, anyone?).
Edit: as an example, let's look at the legend of Geb and the Field of Maidens. Right here we have an example of Flesh to Stone used on a mass scale, and not just "Mass" as in 1 person per level but an entire battalion or legion. I wonder where that ranks on the chart? Archmage 6, maybe 8? I can't wait to find out.
Actually the scary part about Razmir is:
Not to be offensive, but I think perhaps suggestions should wait for the playtest.
The reason being, we don't really have enough details on how it's going to be implemented in order to make realistic suggestions on abilities.
I'm not trying to rain on parades, I'm just saying that if people get really interested and jazzed about something that ends up not being able to work with the rules they put into the playtest, then that can give the playtest a negative aspect instead of actually playing it and seeing how it works.
Not to be offensive, but I think perhaps suggestions should wait for the playtest.
The reason being, we don't really have enough details on how it's going to be implemented in order to make realistic suggestions on abilities.
I'm not trying to rain on parades, I'm just saying that if people get really interested and jazzed about something that ends up not being able to work with the rules they put into the playtest, then that can give the playtest a negative aspect instead of actually playing it and seeing how it works.
It's cool. We got Eric Mona's permission :)