What sort of help are you looking for? I built a Human Zen Archer for the Kingmaker AP that a buddy of mine is running, and I've gotten him to about 3rd level. I'll be happy to help in any way that I can.
|
@theporkchopxpress
I have no experience with monks. So, I really do need a complete build till lv 12 (Max for PFS), as well as advice on what feats/traits are worth/should be taken.
1 big question is what sort of ability scores should a Dwarf Zen Archer have?
And what should I do about the first 2 levels? (That's about 6 games in PFS?)
@Lightbulb
Thanks for pointing the guide out to me.
Just glanced through it.
One big question, StreamOfTheSky mention droping Charisma to 7(!), with a Dwarf that is 5(!!!) Chrisma
Is that wise???
|
|
zen archers dont function as intended right now. if you play PFS and your event coordinator is a rules stickler, then you wont be able to flurry with your bow. they are going to change the way flurry works soon, well maybe, and let sohei and zen archers work again.
(?) I don't quite understand this. What do you mean by Flurry of Blows not working with Archers?
I thought at level 1 you will be able to shot arrows 2 times at -1 each with Flurry of Blows? And you get better as you level?Can you please clarify this? Thanks.
|
you cannot flurry with one weapon, even a zen archer. so you would get one attack with your bow, and you would have to punch something in melee.
its wierd i know, but soon they will fix the class so you can use your bow. just giving you a heads up so you dont get excited then are told "you cant do that".
personally, I like the fighter archer. good options, combat wise, but if you can't do the zen archer, maybe try a ranger archer?
if you do a human fighter, you would get 14 feats, by 12th level. so,
1. point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot
2. weapon focus
3. deadly aim
4. weapon specialization
5. combat reflexes
6. many shot
7. clustered shots
8. weapon focus greater: longbow
9. snap shot
10. improved snap shot
11. improved precise shot
12. greater weapon specialization
Now, you have 2 little option changes here. first, you can either keep clustered shots in for DR reasons, or you can get rid of it and instead move snap shot up earlier to get improved critical at 9th level. instead you would use specialty arrows, adamantine, cold iron, silver, and so forth to bypass DR.
the fun part starts now.... as a fighter archer, your trick shot ability is key to your build. your cmb for tricker is for you, you're dex because cmb us an attack roll, and your attacks use dex to justify the roll. so, you're dex + bab + weapon focus/b.c. weapon focus + point blank shot + bow enhancements + whatever else can increase your steel roll, or cmb.
You're attack of opportunities can be used with you're trick shot ability, to either disarm, sunder, or trip you're opponent. i'm not 100% sure about sunder being an ask, or a standard action. either way trip or disarm is still good.
you threaten out to 15', where you can make all your trick shot ability a either attacks, or as an AoO. get disarm first, because it will be better in the earlier levels.
max out perception, acrobatics, and (survival) if you want. few ranks in climb, and the rest in stealth, and your golden.
Also, remember that the first round is combat the enemies who haven't acted, and you'll probably be one if the first to go, they are flat footed. use this to you're average, to hut them with the trick shot ability, since their cmd will not have a dex bonus. after that go to town and start pincushioning them.
|
I do not believe the Flurry of Blows issue applies to the Zen Archer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Zen archers are proficient with longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
Paizo clearly intends the Zen Archer to fire arrows using the attack bonus from the FoB table. When Paizo does issue new rules, the Zen Archer will not, I think, be affected.
Anyway, for a PFS 20 point build dwarf Zen Archer, I recommend:
STR 13 (3 pts)
DEX 13 (3 pts)
CON 14 (12 + 2) (2 pts)
INT 11 (1 pt)
WIS 19 (17 + 2) (13 pts)
CHA 6 (8 - 2) (-2 pt)
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Precise Shot
Traits: Reactionary, ?
Please understand that this is only one person's thought. Many will disagree with this set of stats. For example, some would suggest lowering CHA still further, and putting more points into STR or DEX.
Also, the archer's really good bonus to hit will not kick in until third level, when he can use WIS instead of DEX for the bonus.
EDIT
At 6th level, you will absolutely want Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat. This is, in my experience playing a dwarf Zen Archer, the best feat available for an archer.
|
|
@Grizzly the Archer,
That's the build I was thinking of. But I was wondering if its possible to switch human for Dwarf... I'm building a character around the Dwarf race.
@Theconiel,
Why the large number of odd numbers???
Would it not be better to drop Wis to 18, Int to 10, and bump Str and Dex to 14? And then place level ability increase to Wis?
|
|
maezer it looks like that post says that in the future it will be fixed but no official announcement has been made about the zen archer. if you choose to play a zen archer you have to play by the current version of the rules, but it will be fixed so you can play it as intended... eventually.
"Because the Zen Archer concept hinges on the ability to take a flurry of blows with a single weapon, Jason has assured me that the Zen Archer, specifically, will be made to work as it currently does (taking a full flurry action with a single weapon). There is no timeline when this official clarification will be made, however. So, for Zen Archers, I encourage patience rather than a knee jerk rebuild."
knee jerk is in refrence to the ability to rebuild you character to work by changing it as necessary(feats, archetypes ect..), but once you do you wont be able to change it back to a zen archer.
|
|
maezer it looks like that post says that in the future it will be fixed but no official announcement has been made about the zen archer. if you choose to play a zen archer you have to play by the current version of the rules, but it will be fixed so you can play it as intended... eventually.
If a personal publicly posted message from PFS coordinator who conferred directly with the lead designer says
"the Zen Archer, specifically, will be made to work as it currently does (taking a full flurry action with a single weapon)."
That's pretty clear. If there ever is an official update (which at this point I tend to doubt short of a Pathfinder version 2) on the flurry issue you'll probably see no change to a Zen Archer.
you're making assumptions.
he also posted about not making kneejerk reactions and changing your monk as i stated in my previous post. if it worked the way people wanted it to, he wouldnt need to post that and would say "play your zen archer as it was intended".
|
|
actually yeah i do.a thread that was locked earlier today said they were going to work on it this week.
now as to whether or not people are ignoring the rueling that a zen archer only gets its main hand attacks with a bow is irrelivent to the issue of it not working as the rules state.his event coordinator may be cool with looking the other way, but thats not a gurantee now is it. reread my fist post i made, youll notice i never said DONT PLAY A ZEN ARCHER, i said you may get told you cant do a full attack using only your bow.
|
|
@Grizzly the Archer,
That's the build I was thinking of. But I was wondering if its possible to switch human for Dwarf... I'm building a character around the Dwarf race.
@Theconiel,
Why the large number of odd numbers???
Would it not be better to drop Wis to 18, Int to 10, and bump Str and Dex to 14? And then place level ability increase to Wis?
There are, of course, varied opinions. I prefer to start with 19 WIS so that I can increase WIS to 20 at 4th level. The first PFS character I built had all even scores, so my 4th level stat increase changed no bonuses. I tend to overcompensate. Having 1 extra point, I put it into INT. If you start with 18 WIS, you won't get the +5 bonus until 8th level (excluding magic items, of course).
Secane: Ok, no problem. To have you as a dwarf is no problem, personally was thinking of doing the same thing for a zen archer. However, it can still be done as a dwarf w/ the fighter archer build I posted for you. There are a couple of options for you in terms of removing the extra feat the human race gives you, so it's really up to you of how you want to tweak the build, so you now have to remove one to balance it back. Other than that, the build is fine.
Options:
**1. Get rid of clustered shots. If you get the availability of different special material arrows, of which you only really 3, then your ok. The only other DR issue, will be the weapon damage types (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing (of which you cover automatically )), ill be energy or alignment types. Such as DR 10/ Good & silver. Clustered shots is a real gain, but the big draw for the Archer archetype in PFS is the trickshot ability, otherwise why? By those levels things start to turn on you cmb vs. cmd wise for enemies. Some will have huge numbers, that even with a natural 19 roll won't help. The trickshot ability will be best as disarm-->sunder-->trip, in order of getting them..... Anyway, losing clustered shots shouldn't be too bad an dis in my mind the best option for you to do in terms of being a dwarf an thus getting rid of a feat.
2. you can get rid of weapon specialization. You do a lot of damage to begin with, but the big draw for fighters IS the ability of access to weapon focus and weapon specialization, and their greater versions. If however you don't care about that, no problem just get rid of it. (What I mean is, for the first level, get point blank and precise. 2nd Rapid shot, so on, everything BUT the key feats (weapon focus, weapon specialization, and manyshot. These ill be your big gains in both attack an damage, an manyshot is more damage since it's an extra arrow.
3.
----
Whether or not you do an zen archer, fighter archer, or ranger archer even (consider it the middle between the fighter and zen archer... most people place archers in this order typically--> zen archer (if it is deemed to work at your table)>ranger archer = arcane archer/EHK build (uses imbued arrow an a mix of magic with archery leans heavily on the magic side regardless of the build)= Ranger archer has magic (if you want it, or go Guide archetype; I prefer the ranger vs the AA/EHK)>Fighter>Fighter (archer archetype)); make sure the tactics fit the character.
Zen archer is better off being in the back, b/c even if your a dwarf, you still won't have a huge constitution and your HD isn't as good as a fighters.
Ranger archers same thing as zen, but they are better at scouting due to their terrain bonuses. Utilize this a lot if in your favored terrain.
Fighter archers shouldn't always stay in the back, and for your build, I encourage you to move up a bit. You don't need to force play your 15' threatened area, or your 30' area for trickshot ability, but it will come in handy more times than not, so don't undersell it by not making the effort to be a bit crazy an get closer.
^^ Zen archer>ranger archer>AA/EHK>Fighter> Fighter Archer archetype
Also, if you have access to Ioun stones, (which I don't know if you do, an even if you do, not sure about the resonate abilities if put in a wayfinder), but if you do, try to get a dusty rose prism, the 500 gp one is fine for you, slotted into a wayfinder. For the 1k gp (I think) for those 2 items, you get a +1 to initiative, an get a +2 to your cmb/cmd. This will boost up your chance to disarm, trip, or sunder w/ your trickshot by 10%. Considering the huge gap that there tends to be with cmd vs. cmd this is a good gain for you. If you can't not a huge deal.
Let me break down some numbers on your cmb for trickshot...
First, even though cmb says BAB+ Str. that's for melee attacks. When paizo first made cmb the archer archetype idnt exist, and also, there is no way BUT the archer archetype to do any sort of Combat maneuver from afar. So, since a combat maneuver is an attack roll. You make an attack roll using your modifiers for your attack. This includes dex, since a bo wis a ranged weapon. Thus, for you to do trickshot it's.. BAB + Point blank shot (always within 30') + dex + greater weapon focus + other.
level 12
dex 16 base (+2 level bumps, +4 enh. item)= 22 (+6)
BAB 12 + DEX +6 + +2 G. Weapon Focus + +3 bow + Expert Archer +2 -4 trickshot= +21 minimum (assuming the number for starting dex, and access to a +3 bow, seems reasonable).
The avg. CMD for a CR 14 enemy is, (reason CR 14, is, if your going to test your theoretical situations, you nee to do it in almost improbable circumstances, to see how much you gain when it is something far far less of an issue, otherwise you run the risk of always thinking 'gee, things sure are easy vs. CR 10 or 11)... seems to be in the low to mid 40's. Let's ball park it at 45.
CMB 21 vs. CMD 45---> Not gonna happen unless you roll Natural 20. However, your party bard easily provides a +2, if you had the ioun stone an it's resonate that's another +2. Someone might do bless or something, wizard can do haste. NOW, your numbers are looking like a +26. 45-26= +19 needed to pull it off. If access to a +6 dex item, and a +4 bow, that's another 10% chance to hit, so a 17 on the d20 roll to pull it off.
Remember, this is vs. a CR 14 monster. You won't face that all the time, but I would think that if you can pull off a trip on a CR 14 monster which has a cmd of 45, I think your party ill look at you, drop their jaws, and smile in glee. Needing an 18 on the d20, that's a 15% chance to do whichever maneuver you want of the 3. The lower the CR of the monster the better the odds of getting a lower CMD, and in turn a higher % chance to trip, disarm, or sunder. This is vs. monsters mind you, the every day wizard will cry and so will the typical NPC enemy that's not a creature. Also, since you will try to be one of the first people to act in the round, most of your enemies will probably be flat-footed. If there are viable options for you at that time, either to disarm or trip an enemy, or even try to sunder an item (use adamantine arrows if necessary since objects even with sunder talk half damage first from ranged attacks and then apply hardness. The adamantine arrows will turn your possible +20 damage--> +10 damage, to actually go through, v.s 0 dmg, w/o adamantine arrows). Since they will be flatfooted, they lose their dex bonus to their cmd. So your odds of pulling off one of your maneuvers just shot up exponentially. If anything, this will be one of the few times you get to pull off the trip you need, b/c even if it's the first round, if your w/in 30' an you trip, they provoke an AoO from you for trying to get up. You can't trip them again, I believe, supposedly about how the order of things go, but you can disarm them, or sunder them, or just even outright put an arrow in their knee for some damage.
TL;DR: Get rid of clustered shots and use DR appropriate arrows and you'll be fine with the dwarf fighter archer.
|
Officially, nothing has changed with flurry.
How it works now, is not fully understood, even by Paizo employees.
You may, or may not get variations, from table to table.
Then Zen Archer should be fine, as the "switch between weapons" thing makes it simply not work, and PFS Venture Captains are not that cruel.
|
|
@Grizzly the Archer
Thanks for the advice.
Is this in order of better to worse? :
Zen archer>ranger archer>AA/EHK>Fighter> Fighter Archer archetype
If so, why is a Fighter better then the Fighter (Archer) archetype?
And what ability score spread (20 point buy) would you recommend for a Dwarf Fighter Archer? (Int is not a dump for PFS, need skill points for profession.)
There is the Archer Cleric option for the Dwarf. Choose a god with Longbow as it's favored weapon, then nab the Channel Smite and Guided Hand feats.
I had thought of playing a Archer Cleric. But backed away for 2 reasons:
1) Dwarfs Clerics are kinda feat staved, meaning I will get important archer feats like precies shot and rapid shot at much later levels. I will also need to be level 2 before I can make full use of the Channel Smite and Guided Hand combo.2) Having playing a Cleric for most of my Pathfinder games, I found that most people, expect the Cleric to play the role of a healer.
Fights, with a cleric in the party, usually goes like this... "Cleric, you have to heal the fighter! OR he will go down the next turn!"...etc.
This is even if I'm playing a battle cleric....
Typically most people feel that the monk has a lot to offer more so than the fighter archers and more combat utilization than the ranger. They get 8 or 9 attacks vs the fighters 5 or 6 (with an extra arrow for manyshot). This means that the zen archer can crit more often. Also, ki is a huge factor for them which is very important for them, and with the newest special materials and items in ultimate equipment and advanced race guide, they on't ever seem to run out of ki. Another huge draw for the zen archer over the others is that besides the flurry ability and bumps to their speed and AC, they can shoot arrows around corners, unlike the other archers. As long as they can find the enemy essentially, they can shoot them, even if in a force cage with slats, they can do it. They have a weak snap shot ability, they can threaten at 10', But only 10', not 5' or 15', just the 10'. You can either ecide to spend a feat or two, to either threaten out to the 5' & 10' or take the 2 eats to threaten out to 15'. However, it's not a huge draw for them since they ten to be a bit squishy vs the fighter in terms of HP. As for AC the zen archer is better, so archery suits him better while he's in back.
The fighter archer vs. the archer archetype falls into 3 reasons as to why the fighter archer is typically deemed better.
1. Weapon training. The fighter has weapon training but the archer archetype has Expert archer. It's the same thing, an the archer archetype is more restrictive. However, the issue lies in the magic item Dueling Gloves. It boosts the weapon training for fighters by +2. So that means, +2 to your atk and +2 to dmg. On top of all the other goodies it provides, +4 cmd vs. disarm/sunder, cannot let go of bow from spells or abilities or conditions. Most dm's tend to see that multiple developers created the books, and so for one developer to be creative change the name of the ability seems harmless, unless of course it screws you out of +2 atk/dmg. This is a big reason why fighters as archers are deemed better. You chose the fighter class for one thing only, to kill stuff. Nothing more, nothing less. To nerf your on role in the party is stupid.
2. The other main reason fighters are better as archers over the archer archetype is AC. The reason is b/c the archetype archer gives up armor training, which increases the max dex bonus allowed for your armor. The archer archetype's best armor is celestial armor. The fighter could probably wear mithral full plate, or even celestial plate (upgrade version of celestial armor). Thus given them a higher tough AC from the higher ex bonus, and a higher flat-footed AC from the better armor.
3. The smallest reason of the 3 is that the weapon training ability serves multiple weapons. You can have a +4 to bows, +3 to short swords, +2 dagger, and the +1 to w/e the heck you want. The archer archetype only gets the same +4, an it's only with the one type of weapon. SO i you choose longbow, that's it, not shortbow, not a sling, not a dagger, just the longbow you get bonuses. In essence, it really pigeonholes you into the corner a lot , vs. more versatility to be better overall as the fighter.
Dump charisma to a 7. I know as a dwarf your looking at a 5 then, but who cares. You don't have to be the most likable character, just a very useful one.
Stat array for fighter archer 20 pt.
STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 14 CHA: 5
I'm not sure how much you want to optimize him. If you want better stats vs. balance then.....STR: 14 DEX: 17 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 14 CHA: 5
All 3 level bump will be dex, gaining you a +2in your combat reflexes, AC, initiative, acrobatics, reflex, and atk.
Your fighter will have 4 (or 3 depending on stats) skill points each level. (5 skill points(4) if you do favored class for skill and not HP, your choice, I prefer HP, more useful long run).
Str is fine considering the bonuses from weapon specialization and it's greater version, for a +4 to damage. Throw in Deadly aim for an additional +4 dmg, your +2 str mod, +4 str. belt enh. (+2 mod), +3 bow, and +3 Expert archer... your looking at 1d8 + 18 per arrow, of which you have 5 arrows over 4 attacks. (6 over 5 attacks, if hasted).
|
|
@Grizzly the Archer,
THANKS for all that info! Normal Fighter do seem much better than the Archer archetype for killing things.
Thank you for all your help!
One quick question, is 14 Dex functional as an archer? (Seen some builds that suggest a starting of 16 to 20(!) in Dex...
You could take a single level dip into Crusader Cleric, and the rest into Archer Fighter.
Is this for the extra feat?
At what character level will you suggest I take the dip?
And as for domains, what do you think will suit a archer? (I'm thinking Liberation, but that's just me.
Dex 14? I have you at dex 16, or dex 17.. Reread the post again.
As for the fighter over the archer archetype for killing things, I prefer w/ the archetype b/c it at least gives you some more options with the trickshot ability and bonuses. The fighter plain simply has different ways of doing damage, not necessarily anything better, just more ways to kill. For me, options are better as the archer archetype.
No problem. Just remember that if you do decide to go fighter over the archer archetype, you will want to possibly get Point blank master, which is needed to not provoke AoO w/ your bow. Since you might be using snap shot and its improved version, not granting your enemy an AoO or any reason is a huge benefit. In this case, you would need to get rid of another feat to fit it into the build.
However, if you decide you don't need point blank master that's fine as well. In which case you might not want snap shot and imp. snap shot, b/c it means putting you in front lines more, and you giving your opponents way too many AoO's. Replacing snap shot. imp snap shot, (and possibly combat reflexes) would be iron will, improved iron will, and improved critical.
After 12th level for the archer archetype the only big draw besides gaining +5' of firing range, and EA increasing, an hawkeye, is the volley ability which is late game, at level 17. As for mid level gains, its either being better in your armor, and access to thew duelist gloves, or getting trickshot ability, a free extra feat, and some perception/range benefits. For me the fighter archer, b/c of the build provides lot of utilization, but you lack in the AC a little bit compared to the normal fighter, as well as access to the gloves, which is a huge loss in many people's opinions. Since it's PFS, you won't be able to get your DM to side w/ you on getting the gloves for the archer archetype over the fighter, so in this case you might be better off as the fighter.
Again, it's up to you as to what you want.
|
|
I have a Zen Archer that I vow will not see the light of day untill the clarification is made ... a big reason is I was hit by the undead lord ban hammer
for a ZA Might I recommend Tengu - +2 Dex +2 Wis
and another Archer build Id like to see added to the mix of the Archer debate - simply because I'm curious how it stacks up
is Myrmadarch Magus / Arcane Archer.... PFS it ends up being an 8/4 I think was where my calculations ended up
|
you cannot flurry with one weapon, even a zen archer. so you would get one attack with your bow, and you would have to punch something in melee.
its wierd i know, but soon they will fix the class so you can use your bow. just giving you a heads up so you dont get excited then are told "you cant do that".
This is not true. In the same thread that SKR said Flurry was intended to work like TWF and be used with alternating attacks, he noted that Zen Archer was a specifically intended exception to this rule. Zen Archer has never been prohibited from flurrying by any dev, nor by RAW or RAI.
The only people who ever contended that Zen Archer couldn't flurry were irate posters who didn't take the time to read everything SKR had to say and instead flew off the handle into frothing rants.
zen archers dont function as intended right now. if you play PFS and your event coordinator is a rules stickler, then you wont be able to flurry with your bow. they are going to change the way flurry works soon, well maybe, and let sohei and zen archers work again.
This is completely NOT TRUE. There has been no official errata so Zen Archers play exactly as written. That means they can flurry with a bow as it specifically says they can in the Archetype.
Being huge fan of this Archetype, I've played this from level 1-9 in a Jade Regent game, and am currently playing a level 12 in a homebrew. This is what I've learned:
Precise Shot at level 1: You can use your Bonus Monk Feat to get rid of the Prereq's if you don't want to take Point Blank at this level. It's not bad, and you'll have to get it eventually, but there are options. Others might say Deadly Aim, but I think that's a HUGE mistake. It's better to hit with minor damage than miss with major damage. There are just too many penalties at first level to not take Precise Shot.
1st: Toughness
Human: Improved Initiative
Monk 1st: Precise Shot
Monk 2nd: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: Dodge
Monk 6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Vital Strike
I think that's the way I'd do it if I had it over again. There are some other options though. I know one poster is a huge fan of Snake Style. Essentially it makes your AC your Sense Motive + 1d20 for 1 attack. I'm not a real fan of it because at higher levels baddies rarely only have 1 attack, but it works for some.
Zen Archer should work fine. If there's any doubt, don't make one, though. Telling a ZAM he can't flurry with his bow is akin to asking him why he bothered to even show up to play.
Secane: Dwarf is the best core race for ZAM. The class is very much not feat starved, and there's not much for them to get at level 1 anyway (RAW you lack the BAB for deadly aim), so I don't recommend human. At the very least, at least a race w/ special vision, that's nice as an archer. Optimally, yes, you would dump cha to 7, even if a dwarf. ZAM are less MAD than normal monks, but they still want very good wis and good dex/str/con, so every little bit helps. You're vulnerable to charisma drain/damage, but you'll also have high saves and touch AC and not be on the front line, so it's not that risky. It makes it impossible to be the party face, but monk's not good for that anyway, and (IMO) playing a low-cha jerk who is lacking in manners and pisses people off is actualyl fun to roleplay, so low charisma can be a plus in that department, depending on how you see things. :D
What other races are allowed in PFS? Just Aasimar/Tiefling/Tengu? Those are the only ones I've seen people mention. Tengu would be ok as a ZAM. Con penalty hurts, but is manageable.
The ioun stone trick I had made mention of, as you mentioned doesn't work in the fact that the stone is inferior. Also, by the levels that it would be needed more, which are in the mid levels where the extra +2 CMB bonus for trickshot Is a huge 10% gain to trip, disarm, or sunder its not that expensive. Either way, the dusty rose prism is oly 5,000 gp... So by the time you might need it, or even earlier, ou can easily purchase it.