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I'm joining a Play-By-Post here on Paizo. We're starting at 4th level, and so far the party looks like a bard, a monk/lore warden, a magus, a sorcerer, an Invulnerable Rager barbarian (me) and one undecided.
The problem is that unless the undecided guy chooses to play a cleric or something, we won't have someone who is able to heal very often or particularly well. It was suggested we get a wand of cure light wounds for the bard to have, but that's only good for out-of-combat healing. At the current level, I'm really worried about our party's ability to survive long enough to get healed. Only my character is able to wear medium armor, and it's not like the rest of them are playing high hit-dice classes either. One lucky crit on the DM's part and we could be down a player.
So, I decided to volunteer to play the healer in order to keep the group alive. The problem I'm running into now is...what do I do? What class should I play?
I'm already playing a druid in another low-level game, so I'd rather not play a druid. Inquisitors and bards don't have enough spell slots or fast enough progression. So that leaves me with the oracle or the cleric, basically. But...man, the cleric spell list really bums me out. There's nothing exciting on it.
To be clear, I don't want any links to any optimization guides. I'm an adult, I've seen the guides and read them before. That's not what I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is how to play one of these classes without boring myself.
With either class I don't need to worry about preparing cure spells, so I can just keep them on the back-burner for when I need them and otherwise play my own style. The problem I'm having is...what style should that be?
I don't want to melee, there's already a couple of other guys who are going to do that. Blasting also seems unlikely, given the presence of a low-level sorcerer. And you can't really build a ranged warrior with an oracle or a cleric, there aren't any domains or mysteries that support it and neither class has proficiency with a single bow.
So...what does that leave? If I'm wearing medium armor, that 20' movement speed will cut into my ability to deliver touch spell buffs, but if I'm not wearing it, I'll get cut up.
Oh right, here are my scores by the way. (We had to roll, there's no rerolls): 18, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13 (Pre-racial, pre level 4 boost).
Ah, one last thing. This is a human-only game.
So, what do I do now? I guess the only thing I can think of is either sub-par blasting and trying to keep up with the sorcerer or debuffing, but is a low-level cleric/oracle really any good at that?
I don't like illusion magic, by the way, so please don't suggest anything like that. It's just a personal distaste.
Multiclass? Consider going Zen Archer Monk 3/Cleric X, which lets you use WIS to-hit with a bow, which will also be your casting stat.
If you don't like losing so many cleric levels, you could also go full Cleric and take Channel Smite + Guided Hand to use WIS for to-hit with your deity's favored weapon, whichever that may be.
If you're feeling a little mischievous, you could also be an Undead Lord cleric who focuses on buffing your Corpse Companion. Fight with your CC, heal with your PC.
How about the Holy Hunter Paladin archetype?
It's a pretty good ranged combatant and can use Lay on Hands and Channel Energy (I think, I'm not sure if it trades Channel energy for something else).
I think Inquisitors are proficient with longbows, and the Preacher archetype allows you to trade Teamwork Feats for stuff that is far more useful for ranged combatants.
Clerics of Erastil get proficiency with longbows. Feather domain + Boon Companion can make a Ranger-ish kind of cleric. Get a Seeking Guided longbow for some awesome-sauce. Or, if you don't mind losing caster levels, maybe get a few levels of Zen Archer Monk?
Oracle of Battle gan get proficiency with all martial weapons and heavy armor with a single Mystery. So they can be solid archers in addition to their buffing/healing
Hmm...
You feel like you have to play a healbot and you don't want to get bored because healbot is boring? I'm not sure why you're worried about healing in combat anyway if you've read guides. Unless you're party is significantly less optimised than the GM's encounters you don't need it. Are you expecting back to back encounters?
Get a reach rod anyway or the metamagic for spontaneous cure, don't try to melee touch in combat.
Btw, Clerics get proficiency with their god's favoured weapon so you can get a bow if you so choose.
Alternatively, use racial shenanigans from the ARG to get proficiency with a bow that way. Especially useful if you decide on an Oracle.
Or you can take the Crusader cleric archetype and take martial weapon proficiency, as your 1st level bonus feat, with a bow as well as other fighter feats.
Any time you get hasted or blessing of fervor'd you can get 30ft move (even with medium armor), and since haste is pretty common you should expect to have one of the two, at least.
Also, Witches heal too if you haven't already considered them. The Hedge Witch archetype even lets you cast cure spells spontaneously.
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Hmm...
You feel like you have to play a healbot and you don't want to get bored because healbot is boring? I'm not sure why you're worried about healing in combat anyway if you've read guides. Unless you're party is significantly less optimised than the GM's encounters you don't need it. Are you expecting back to back encounters?
I've been at way too many tables where an unexpected crit ended with a member of the party dangerously low on health, and I highly doubt retreat will be an option at any point in this game.
But yes, you've summed up my problem with that first sentence.
The problem is that no one has control over their ability scores, so we have to take what we've got, which means that not every member of the party will be able to put even a 12 in their Constitution score, and with the low hit dice of the group (d8s and below for everyone except the fighter), I don't foresee anyone surviving well without emergency healing.
Get a reach rod anyway or the metamagic for spontaneous cure, don't try to melee touch in combat.
Starting gold for 4th level is 6000 gp, and a lesser rod of reach spell is 3000 gp, but I'll definitely keep it in mind if I can.
Btw, Clerics get proficiency with their god's favoured weapon so you can get a bow if you so choose.Alternatively, use racial shenanigans from the ARG to get proficiency with a bow that way. Especially useful if you decide on an Oracle.
Or you can take the Crusader cleric archetype and take martial weapon proficiency, as your 1st level bonus feat, with a bow as well as other fighter feats.
Hmm...well, Crusaders get diminished spellcasting so I don't know if that's the best idea, but good point about the ability to get an elf's weapon familiarity as a human.
Any time you get hasted or blessing of fervor'd you can get 30ft move (even with medium armor), and since haste is pretty common you should expect to have one of the two, at least.
Not until next level, at least (probably not for two more levels, since we have a sorcerer, not a wizard). So that doesn't help me, especially with how long it takes to level up in PBPs.
Also, Witches heal too if you haven't already considered them. The Hedge Witch archetype even lets you cast cure spells spontaneously.
That is indeed something I hadn't considered. Witches can debuff pretty well, I've heard...
Multiclass? Consider going Zen Archer Monk 3/Cleric X, which lets you use WIS to-hit with a bow, which will also be your casting stat.
If you don't like losing so many cleric levels, you could also go full Cleric and take Channel Smite + Guided Hand to use WIS for to-hit with your deity's favored weapon, whichever that may be.
I'd like to be able to heal effectively starting at 4th level. Having 1 level of cleric at the start of the game kind of ruins the point.
Channel Smite doesn't help me any when I channel positive energy, except against undead which I really don't expect to encounter at all.
How about the Holy Hunter Paladin archetype?
It's a pretty good ranged combatant and can use Lay on Hands and Channel Energy (I think, I'm not sure if it trades Channel energy for something else).
Not good enough. Unless I take Selective Channel and have a decent Cha, I can't Channel during combat, and even then it only heals for 2d6 points of damage, as opposed to the 2d8+4 I could be getting as a cleric casting cure moderate wounds. I just have to figure out how to effectively deliver that in combat...
This paladin archetype is pretty good at healing as well.
I would go with 13 STR 12 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 11 Wis and 18 CHA. You can put the points for race and level into STR or CHA as you choose.
You may also consider the Human alternate race trait that trades your feat and skills for an extra +2 to an ability score for a bit more bonus to either STR or CHA.
Witch may be a very solid choice. The single high ability you have plays well into a witch build. They do not have as much healing as a cleric or oracle, but the healing hex will help. Plus Slumber will work to shut things down so healing is not needed.
Combine that with Fortune, Misfortune, Evil Eye and Cackle and you have a solid list of options to debuff, shut down, or heal as needed. And the party will love Fortune when you give it to them.
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This paladin archetype is pretty good at healing as well.
I would go with 13 STR 12 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 11 Wis and 18 CHA. You can put the points for race and level into STR or CHA as you choose.
You may also consider the Human alternate race trait that trades your feat and skills for an extra +2 to an ability score for a bit more bonus to either STR or CHA.
...I suppose you're right, in the long run, but at the moment it only offers me the ability to AOE heal for 1d6 points or touch someone for 2d6 points. That's hardly enough to protect someone from death. I really just want to be able to use the cure moderate wounds spell, at 4th level, and still be able to do other stuff. That's what I'm after here. Anything less than that nice chunk of 6-20 hit points isn't very reassuring. (Especially something that has a minimum of 1 or 2. 6 isn't much better, but it is better).
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Witch may be a very solid choice. The single high ability you have plays well into a witch build. They do not have as much healing as a cleric or oracle, but the healing hex will help. Plus Slumber will work to shut things down so healing is not needed.
Combine that with Fortune, Misfortune, Evil Eye and Cackle and you have a solid list of options to debuff, shut down, or heal as needed. And the party will love Fortune when you give it to them.
Hmmm...so what are some good feats for the witch to take? I have 3. I guess Extra Hex is one, since you named five different hexes and I only have 3 at 4th, but what else would you suggest?
You could play a Witch. Healing Hex + one or two prepped spells at this level should be enough if you have a supplemental CLW wand. You would then have significant other options available at any time from Hexes. Even if you stacked healing spells, you would still have the option of an Evil Eye or Misfortune if needed. Scar Hex allows you to Heal or Ward from range as needed.
If your goal is to not be bored while healing, this is a really good option.
Ability Focus is a good one for Slumber. It raises the DC of that hex by +2. (As that feat is from the bestiary not all DM's will allow it.) Extra Hex is a good one, but you do not have to take all the ones I mentioned... they are just some of the things I was throwing out there.
Improved Initiative could be a big thing if you take slumber to get the hex off quickly. Improved Familiar at higher levels would be fun too. I have always been a fan of pseudodragons even if there are some better ones mechanically.
Witches do get cure moderate wounds, so you will have that spell available.
Patrons that I like are Healing since restoration could be an issue and Time is always a good one too.
Important point of note for playing a healer Witch: If you don't have a reason to cast a spell right away in combat, have your familiar hold the charge and use Hexes. That way, you have cures ready at two ranges due to your Healing Hex and the held charge.
I wouldn't use the Ward hex. Working until it fails is not so good, especially when fighting iterative attacks since failing on the initial means it won't be around for the next ones which are more likely to miss. Not to mention deflection and resistance bonuses are commonplace so it doesn't stack. Also, only one ward at a time!
You feel like you have to play a healbot and you don't want to get bored because healbot is boring? I'm not sure why you're worried about healing in combat anyway if you've read guides. Unless you're party is significantly less optimised than the GM's encounters you don't need it. Are you expecting back to back encounters?
This is something that has been debated endlessly on these boards. Frankly, it's not true, at least in most games.
But I have found that Channel Energy, esp with Selective Channeling, works better in combat that Cure spells (at least until the very high levels).
You can get this by The Hospitaler Paladin archetype also, along with burning a feat or two for extra lay On hands. Be a human, CHA 13 and put the +2 into CHA and you have a decent Channeling and other paladin goodness.
You could put the 18 in CHA and play a Life Oracle. Man with a + 2 race that make you have a 20 CHA, you would also rule as a party face.
I never said in general or "most games". I said that because the OP implied they have a reasonable amount of system mastery and should know that removing damage is a waste of an action if the same action can be used to prevent more damage than you can heal for.
"Most games" are not played by people with any deep understanding of the system, OP is not one of those people.
Yes, occasionally a lucky crit will drop a PC but you can't sit there wasting slots or actions on the offchance someone is going to get crit.
As to Hospitaler Paladin, OP already said they want CMW at 4th and not gimped channel and (life) Oracle is too much of a healbot/subpar blaster.
EDIT: Though, I agree that channel is nicer than cure spells. Especially when you can give out bonuses and things with alternative channel.
I never said in general or "most games". I said that because the OP implied they have a reasonable amount of system mastery and should know that removing damage is a waste of an action if the same action can be used to prevent more damage than you can heal for.
"Most games" are not played by people with any deep understanding of the system, OP is not one of those people.
Friend, this is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. In my games we need it, and that's because when you get one hit away from being dead there's NOTHING that's as sure as healing to stop that one hit.
Mind you, yes- topping off is not the best use of actions when you can buff instead. Topping off is best saved for after combat.
Like I said, on these boards we have had this debate many many times before.
And, I am pretty sure that I have a reasonably "deep understanding of the system". (You can check my profile).
But the Op clearly is not up on healing and Channel is THE way to go in combat. It's ranged, it's a Su action, and it gets everyone. It beats CModW by a mile.
Witch & Inquisitor are Ok as back-up and after combat healers (where a wand of clw can do a lot anyway). For *IN* combat, it's Channel (until you get really high level, of course).
That leaves you Cleric, Life Oracle or Pally . Esp since he's part of a party of SIX. Thus any Channel gets a 50% bonus compared to a normal 4 guy party.
Thus even the pally heals 6D6 per channel.
With a 20 CHA he can do this as a std Pally 3 or4 times a day + whatever feats, but that burns a lot of Lay On Hands.
With Hospitaller it's 8 times a day. Plus 7 LoH. That's a lot of healing. 48D6 plus 14 D6 personal or close ranged (LoH).
Even if the 18 goes into CON or STR (or even DEX with a archer), that leaves the 13+1 4th+2 race for 16 CHA. That excludes 3 foes, and gives 6 channels and 5 LoH.
Now, I think the 20 CHA Pally sounds like a LOT of fun. Dump the 13 in STR or Con (making it 14 @ level4, a 12 in the other stat, 12 Dex, 11 Wis , 10 Int. Feats are extra LoH, Selective Channel, and one other (for Human).
No need for speed. Even full plate works. Sure, you're not going to dish out much hurt, but the healing will be fine, your saves will be unstoppable, and your Smite will really hurt.
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If you're worried about people dieing Paladins get the earliest access to raise dead via ultimate mercy if they use extra lay on hands to make the prerequisites.
That's really not helpful since paladins don't get access to restoration until 16th level.
I just want to prevent people from dying. I admit that at this level, I can't do anything about actual death, but I shouldn't have to as long as the rest of the party is doing their jobs. As long as I do my job, and keep everyone above half their max hit points, they shouldn't drop to negative Con at all.
One more thing- with a Pally, you can heal yourself as a swift action, getting some nice action economy out of it.
With you and the Bbn making a line, ain't no-one getting thru. You'll have AC up the wazoo (I assume sword & board, FP), he'll have DR.
The other choice is a Gnome Life oracle, again with a CHA of 20. You channel less often but it's 2d6 each PC.
And, you''l have a huge high DC vs your spells.
Friend, this is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. In my games we need it, and that's because when you get one hit away from being dead there's NOTHING that's as sure as healing to stop that one hit.
Eh... It might be if you provided me with evidence of the contrary. As is, not really.
Mind you, yes- topping off is not the best use of actions when you can buff instead. Topping off is best saved for after combat.
:< I think you mean battlefield control or debuff. Buffs are best done before combat.
Like I said, on these boards we have had this debate many many times before.
Link? I haven't seen one yet but I've only really started looking at the forum regularly recently. I've never encountered it this way before either.
And, I am pretty sure that I have a reasonably "deep understanding of the system". (You can check my profile).
Sorry! Didn't meant to imply that at all.
standard-action in-combat healing of less than 100 points a pop doesn't keep the party alive, disabling enemies (by death or other debuff) keeps the party alive.
Mind you, yes- topping off is not the best use of actions when you can buff instead. Topping off is best saved for after combat.:< I think you mean battlefield control or debuff. Buffs are best done before combat.
[.
Before Combat is a great time to buff, but with Round per level spells, you rarely have that luxury.
standard-action in-combat healing of less than 100 points a pop doesn't keep the party alive, disabling enemies (by death or other debuff) keeps the party alive.
Ah, so his 4th level party is gonna need 100 hps of healing a round? Hmm, how many HP do you think they will have?
According to the monster building guidelines, a healing action giving more than 16 HP is not a waste @lvl4, the monster is not supposed to deal more on a given round.
A life oracle can do it.
To see a damage output close to 100 you'll have to wait until level 15+
According to the monster building guidelines, a healing action giving more than 16 HP is not a waste, the monster is not supposed to deal more on a given round.
A life oracle can do it.
The OP asked for cure moderate, without specializing himself into a heal-bot, because he/she finds it boring.
cure moderate is 2d8+4 as a 4th level cleric/oracle...
min 6 HP
average 13.5 HP
max 20 HP
We've had the debate before: to keep up with monster damage you have to specialize the hell out of your healing. And that will have you barely keep up, though eventually you will fail: run out of high-level heals. (Or turn adventures into 15-minute-days, another big debate on this forum)
Healing in combat is only as necessary as the DM wants/makes it to be. 8-)
Imho one of the better options is indeed to take a witch with some nice hexes... don't forget the sleeping and flying ones. ;-)
Healing
Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Slumber
Flight
you might want to include "Reach Spell" to do your cure spells at a distance? and don't forget to pair up spectral hand with your cures
maybe specialize in touch attacks? (touch of fatigue, chill touch, touch of idiocy, vampiric touch, ... and all those inflict spells)
in that case you might want to add the Precise Shot feat chain
I merely said an oracle can, I didn't say she should.
Ah, so his 4th level party is gonna need 100 hps of healing a round? Hmm, how many HP do you think they will have?
No - but his 4th level party doesn't need a dedicated healer.
According to the monster building guidelines, a healing action giving more than 16 HP is not a waste @lvl4, the monster is not supposed to deal more on a given round.
A life oracle can do it.
Eh, if it's a CR4 encounter at level 4, save your highest level spells for a challenging encounter.
What's an iconic CR 4 straight fight encounter, two ogres (wait, those are CR 3 now...2 gorillas instead)? A grizzly bear? I'm not cherrypicking to support my argument here, just picking "iconic" simple fights.
Grizzly bear does 3d6+15 on a full attack routine, BTW.
To see a damage output close to 100 you'll have to wait until level 15+
Lvl 6 sorceror (CR 5) with just 2 charmed hill giants (CR 7 each). Easily north of 100 DPR.
I'm not sure why you're worried about healing in combat anyway if you've read guides. Unless you're party is significantly less optimised than the GM's encounters you don't need it. Are you expecting back to back encounters?
Please don't follow this, or any guides really, blindly. Most guides are written by people who either don't have actual experience, they just do some math, or probably play differently than you and your GM do. I can tell you that in my experience combat healing is necessary regardless of party make up. I play in one campaign that meets every week, and 4 other games that meet ever other week. Of those, 1 is Kingmaker, 1 is Jade Regent, 1 is pure PFS, and the other two are Eberron modules converted to Pathfinder. In all those games combat healing is essential.
In the interest of full disclosure, I was in a 15th level homebrew campaign where we would go sessions without needing combat healing, but right after I dropped out, there was a party wipe.
You are indeed cherrypicking Rasmus, you are choosing monsters with higher than average damage output but lower than average saves. In such cases healing is one of the worst choice.
Plus I was refering to the monsters guidelines, not encounter ones.
To get back on topic, I support Jodokai experience, but standard action healing should emergency only. To add water to the mill, it is also good to have a reliable mean to top off party HP, CLW wand is good at lower levels, but will seriously cripple the party wealth later. Channel is really good for it, healing skill helps a lot as well, optimising self healing can be good too.
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Blasting also seems unlikely, given the presence of a low-level sorcerer.
Have you considered an Oracle of Flame? True, 4th level is an inbetween level, so you'll only have Burning Hands available, but you'll soon have Fireballs. Oracles get all the Cure Spells and lots of slots per day. They have access to the full Cleric spell list, so they can also get important spells like Restoration, Raise Dead, Remove Disease/Blindness/etc, or can carry emergency scrolls of important, but seldom used spells of these types. They can also get the cleric buff spells. I never had any problems healing the group when I was an Oracle, and I was a rockin' Blaster. If you play to high levels, you get Firestorm. which is a very nice spell. Also, unlike a sorceror or wizard, the Oracle can wear armor, which helps when you get overrun.
If you don't mind being small and inoffensive melee-wise, a Gnome Pyro Oracle of Flame is great at low levels for that extra +1 CL with Fire Spells. If you're afraid of being a one-trick pony with Fire, you can take Magical Lineage Fireball and the Elemental Spell Metamagic Feat. Intesified Spell is a must at higher levels as Fireball caps.
One problem is that you don't have good pinpoint spells, like a Sorceror or Wizard. Your fire spells tend to be area effect. Selective can help at higher levels.
Of course, if you don't want to over shadow or compete with the Sorceror (assuming he's a blaster), then maybe the Oracle of Flame wouldn't be a good choice.
Personally, I'd say that combat healing is way too circumstantial to throw around any kind of blanket statements about it always or never being necessary. I've seen campaigns where the party did just fine without any combat healing, and I've seen campaigns where combat healing saved the party's bacon. I think it boils down to how your GM/group runs things and the specific dynamics of an individual encounter.
However, once aspect of in-combat healing I would say can often be essential that hasn't really been mentioned yet is the ability to remove negative conditions. There are plenty of nasty conditions out there that can effectively remove a character from combat no matter how many HP they have left (blind, nauseated, paralyzed, and stunned all immediately spring to mind), and having a counter for those is essential.
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Not having someone who can heal effectively in combat = TPK. Maybe not on the first fight; maybe not on the twentieth. But eventually it will be. Because the monsters are gonna get lucky crits sometime.
That was my line of thinking, yes. And to clarify to the rest of those who have posted, I have already made my character based on the previous posters, and am satisfied with it. I appreciate your continued advice, but this thread is effectively closed.
Not having someone who can heal effectively in combat = TPK. Maybe not on the first fight; maybe not on the twentieth. But eventually it will be. Because the monsters are gonna get lucky crits sometime.
Having monsters get in some luck crits = TPK, with or without a "healer". Because at some point the crit will be high enough to get people to straight dead no matter what.
Healing or not healing is HIGHLY DEPENDENT on your DM... it is the DM who balances things the way HE/SHE sees fit.
I've seen games where healing is counterproductive. I have seen games where healing was required (must-have). That is up to the DM and to an extend, the players, if they choose to rely on that strategy.
Since I've been RPing for a while, I prefer different strageties, because that damn healing always was and always will be something that many people do not like.
Yes, some like it, but most of the time it's a matter of "who's on cleric duty today".
To the OP, it sounds like you have decided on the witch. That is a perfectly valid choice.
I just wanted to point out that some of the statements you made about what couldn't be done with channel and paladins sounded incorrect to me. It is not as limited as it sounded like you think it is. I'm not sure since the wording was a bit odd.
But if you decide to re-consider one of the more traditional healing classes, you may want to re-read those sections in the book or ask for a more detailed rundown here on the boards.
But as I said, the witch can be great and I hope you have fun with it.
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I would like to add that a Life oracle doesn't HAVE to be just a healbot.
I will be running one soon. In Carrion Crown.
He will be blaster vs undead. (cure and reach spells) Around half the fights I’m guessing.
His chosen spells will be controlling and debuff. (things like chain of perdition and hold person) So if it’s not undead he will be a control or debuff caster.
Healing will hopefully be mostly after combat and in addition to spells. (quick channel)
He will only be a healbot when desperation requires.
If the party is getting beatup, he can put out a truly prodigious amount of healing per round. But only for a short time of course.