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Stealing requires the person it is stolen from to be deprived of it... If I take a picture of [your car] and produce an exact working duplicate with a 3D printer, I did not steal your car. You still have it.
And if I take a nap on your couch when no one's home, you still own your property. So you have nothing to complain about if a stranger enters your house when no one's around, so long as that stranger doesn't make a mess.
And if I sleep with your wife when you're out of town, you still have a wife to come back to. So you have nothing to complain about if your wife cheats on you, so long as she still loves you when she next sees you.
It's high time our society threw out repressive institutions like property rights and marriage. It's not like property laws and marriage ceremonies stop trespassing and adultery anyway. We should just accept that trespassing and adultery are legitimate, positive forces in society, and allow anyone interested in engaging in either to do so freely and without shame.
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For those who are advocating that Paizo should be happy that our PDFs are pirated because it's free advertising, I'd like to point to all the OGL content we make available for free. Our business is built on copyright, yes, but we 100% recognize the value in giving away free stuff.That is not generousity, that is mandated by the OGL.Aha, careful.
Anything that's declared as Open content is free to copy according to the rules of the OGL, true.
But Paizo doesn't have to declare any new rules in our books to be Open content.
The Open Content statement on a product's title page says what is and isn't Open content.
Paizo's policy is to declare all rules content as Open (only limiting stuff in the Product Identity section, which includes proper names, art, and so on).
That is generosity, and should not be glossed over.
Further, just because it's open content it does not mean that Paizo have to collate it onto a website for us, pay the hosting costs of that website, and make the text in the PDFs selectable to make it easy for others to make their own websites without having to type it all in again. They have.
Yet more generosity.
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I thought that ploys like that would not get through with the patents office, but I may be wrong. Honestly, something being already in use for centuries can´t be patented by anybody IMO. That is just a ridiculous claim (patenting wooden boats, writing paper, bricks ?) These things are public domain (yeah, might not be the right word here, but you know what I mean). A patent should only be granted to some company that has something new to show, not just "hey, nobody patented this for centuries, let´s do it now and rip off all people using it day to day".
As Monsanto has patented in the US a strain of corn that has been planted in Italy for centuries and chemical companies have attempted the same trick numerous time around the world I have strong doubts when patents of genetically modified crops are involved, but that is totally different from creative works like books.The thing is that these are STRAINS that are patented. Not the originals. So yeah there is something new being patented. For example they develop strains of corn that are resistant to disease or pests (okay, granted I don't really want pesticide built into the corn that I eat, but hey I at least get to eat corn- and with the world's population that is something to consider).
BUT what you said about not patenting something that has always been... in 2010 (or there abouts) a guy was granted a patent for a way to take bread and heat it up to alter its form from soft to drier so it is available for other uses. That is, he patented toast. Yes, in 2010 he was awarded the patent for making toast... Think about that a minute and see if your brain doesn't explode... :)
AFAIK, in this specific instance what Monsanto has done is to gather the seed, select those that had the specific resistance to a corn disease that was selected though generations of breeding by farmers and patent it on the basis that they has selected the specific seed so they were the "creators" of the strain.
No genetic work was done by Monsanto.It is the big problem with genetic manipulation: simply identifying something that has existed for a long time is a valid basis for patenting it?
Chemical companies say YES, people that have used farmed that plant or raised that animal for generations say NO.
Stealing requires the person it is stolen from to be deprived of it... If I take a picture of [your car] and produce an exact working duplicate with a 3D printer, I did not steal your car. You still have it.And if I take a nap on your couch when no one's home, you still own your property. So you have nothing to complain about if a stranger enters your house when no one's around, so long as that stranger doesn't make a mess.
And if I sleep with your wife when you're out of town, you still have a wife to come back to. So you have nothing to complain about if your wife cheats on you, so long as she still loves you when she next sees you.
It's high time our society threw out repressive institutions like property rights and marriage. It's not like property laws and marriage ceremonies stop trespassing and adultery anyway. We should just accept that trespassing and adultery are legitimate, positive forces in society, and allow anyone interested in engaging in either to do so freely and without shame.
Property laws make it illegal to trespass. Marriage ceremonies don't make it illegal to commit adultery. At least in the US I think. :P
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Coridan: There is tons of stuff for free, anybody with access to the internet can use. For Pathfinder, everything in the rulebooks is in the prd, much basic information about golarion can be found in the wiki. There are RPOGs that are completely free.
Somebody who is to broke to afford a legal pdf isn't going to whither and die.
Pirating a product that is supposed to make money for the producer (who, in case of the rpg industrie isn't among the rich either, probably) has less to do with the lack of money than with the unwillingness to spend it.If I can't afford a book, a game, a movie or music, I will do without it - there is plenty of entertainment I don't have to spend money to get.
I agree and I think this gets to the core of this digital generation's attitude of entitlement. If it is out there and they want it, they feel entitled to it. They have not yet had to work for a real living supporting families. Everything is handed to them on a silver platter.
I think once this generation grows up and starts working and having their work taken without receiving payment (ie stolen) they will start to grow up.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.
This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
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@ Krome
At least in the world or RPG probably because copying pieces of the books has been around for 30 years and more.
"Look, Dragon has this cool class/spell/magic item/whatever. I want to use it." After bringing around that number of Dragon a few time it start to self destruct, so you photocopy the relevant pages and bring those around.
A harbound and even Paizo softcover are solid enough to survive staying in your gaming backpack for ages, the old dragon issues weren't so sturdy. Then there is the problem that sometime you need 4 pages of a 300 pages harbound and one from 3 different softcover. As a GM I have printed plenty of times the stats of a monster on recycled paper to bring it to my gaming table and after a time throw away the copy. I am not getting younger and CRB+APG+UC+Bestiary+Relevant adventure+the latest hardbound to show it around is the limit of my carrying capacity.
That situation leave you the impression that a partial copy of a book is an innocuous thing and it is if it is meant simply to be a way to avoid lugging around 5 extra books. As a GM the character sheet are in my hands [unless we are playing], so if I want to put in them a copy of my PDF with the class information for reference it should be kosher.The problem is when you do complete or near complete copies and they go around beyond the level of "handy stuff to consult to the table instead of searching 300 numbers of a magazine".
The advent of tablets, reasonably priced portables and other electronic supports is slowly removing the need for this kind of copying, but at the same time it make you dependant from access to an electrical outlet and sometime to Internet access. Having enjoyed playing RPG while camping or even simply in the house garden I am still aprtial to paper copies. emphasis added
Yes I photocopied stuff from Dragon all the time. From magazines I bought.
But did you ever try going to the game store and saying "Hey this book is cool and all, but I just want these 3 pages. Can I just copy those pages on the copier and not buy the book?"
That is essentially what modern digital piracy is all about. "I want it, but I won't pay for it, so I will take what I want anyway."
About the stuff I emphasized above: I agree 100%. I am almost 100% PDF now. But I still print copies (which is allowed by the license I acquire when I purchase the PDF) when I need to. You know the only reason I am doing PDFs now? I ran out of room for books. I am SURROUNDED by gaming books right now. Quick count... okay got tired of counting at 250 books and quit counting... around my desk alone... not counting the bedroom, bathroom (oh come on like you don't have RPG books in your bathroom), the guest room, the living room... *sigh* I just can't carry all those books with me when I play. Do I need them all all the time. Thank goodness no... but it is annoying how often I need that ONE book I didn't bring... *sigh* lol
BTW thanks for bringing back memories of some great times camping out and gaming... :)
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
When I was studying and without employment for a year afterwards (and 1.5 years of meager pay after that), there were tons of things I wanted to have. But I could not afford them. So I did not get them. End of story. I don´t see what would be different nowadays, besides computer technology that makes these copies readily available. Not having money to afford luxury items is no excuse for stealing them.
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Coridan: There is tons of stuff for free, anybody with access to the internet can use. For Pathfinder, everything in the rulebooks is in the prd, much basic information about golarion can be found in the wiki. There are RPOGs that are completely free.
Somebody who is to broke to afford a legal pdf isn't going to whither and die.
Pirating a product that is supposed to make money for the producer (who, in case of the rpg industrie isn't among the rich either, probably) has less to do with the lack of money than with the unwillingness to spend it.If I can't afford a book, a game, a movie or music, I will do without it - there is plenty of entertainment I don't have to spend money to get.
I agree and I think this gets to the core of this digital generation's attitude of entitlement. If it is out there and they want it, they feel entitled to it. They have not yet had to work for a real living supporting families. Everything is handed to them on a silver platter.
I think once this generation grows up and starts working and having their work taken without receiving payment (ie stolen) they will start to grow up.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.
This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
Really? lol
I was a broke student too. I had nothing. I worked my a$$ off in construction and paid to put myself through school over 10 years because I couldn't get loans because my credit sucked.
See that sense of entitlement comes back out agin. It is called paying your dues. We all went through it.
The difference was we didn't just take whatever we wanted whenever we wanted because we felt entitled to it.
and no my reason why they do it is right on target. They want it they take it.
Do you think people during the Depression did that? Nope. Did people during WW2 do that? Nope. Even my generation did not do that. We they generations of "Haves?" Nope. But they did not feel entitled to anything they wanted either. This generation does.
When I was studying and without employment for a year afterwards (and 1.5 years of meager pay after that), there were tons of things I wanted to have. But I could not afford them. So I did not get them. End of story. I don´t see what would be different nowadays, besides computer technology that makes these copies readily available. Not having money to afford luxury items is no excuse for stealing them.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
And you will note I did not state that not having the money for it justified copying them.
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Coridan: There is tons of stuff for free, anybody with access to the internet can use. For Pathfinder, everything in the rulebooks is in the prd, much basic information about golarion can be found in the wiki. There are RPOGs that are completely free.
Somebody who is to broke to afford a legal pdf isn't going to whither and die.
Pirating a product that is supposed to make money for the producer (who, in case of the rpg industrie isn't among the rich either, probably) has less to do with the lack of money than with the unwillingness to spend it.If I can't afford a book, a game, a movie or music, I will do without it - there is plenty of entertainment I don't have to spend money to get.
I agree and I think this gets to the core of this digital generation's attitude of entitlement. If it is out there and they want it, they feel entitled to it. They have not yet had to work for a real living supporting families. Everything is handed to them on a silver platter.
I think once this generation grows up and starts working and having their work taken without receiving payment (ie stolen) they will start to grow up.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.
This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
Really? lol
I was a broke student too. I had nothing. I worked my a$$ off in construction and paid to put myself through school over 10 years because I couldn't get loans because my credit sucked....
You don't think thievery was rampant during the depression? I find your theories about this time period fascinating. Please continue. I find them as fascinating as your theory that an entire generation is rotten... because!
"Man this new generation... they aren't like OUR generation am I right guys? They are rotten and not as good as our generation! No one ever helped us! But these guys they all expect help!" - Every person who has ever lived.
For those who are advocating that Paizo should be happy that our PDFs are pirated because it's free advertising, I'd like to point to all the OGL content we make available for free. Our business is built on copyright, yes, but we 100% recognize the value in giving away free stuff.That is not generousity, that is mandated by the OGL.Aha, careful.
Anything that's declared as Open content is free to copy according to the rules of the OGL, true.
But Paizo doesn't have to declare any new rules in our books to be Open content.
The Open Content statement on a product's title page says what is and isn't Open content.
Paizo's policy is to declare all rules content as Open (only limiting stuff in the Product Identity section, which includes proper names, art, and so on).
That is generosity, and should not be glossed over.
I'm just curious, but has their been a change to the ability to copyright rules?
From what I understand, you can copyright a game as a literary work and include the visual art, but that protects the actual text and art, not the ideas contained within as pertains to the method of playing the game.
Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Your wording of Power Attack is protected, but not the concept or execution of it, would be my understanding. I could be wrong though, I'm not an author, haven't published anything and am not a copyright lawyer either.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees.
This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So piracy isn't stealing, it's welfare?
I'm sure creating a culture where people aren't required to pay for goods and services is going to work wonders for the purchasing power of said people once they become responsible for producing all of society's goods and services.[/sarcasm]
Well its not "stealing" because no one is being deprived of their copy. Its infringement for sure.
Also you will note I did not say this justified anything. Simply pointing out the mischaracterization of the generation in question.
And please, can we stop using the word Piracy? isn't that a little bombastic? Can you imagine if pirates from the golden age of piracy boarded your ship and illegally copied your ship's log before leaving? Something tells me we'd remember the age... some what differently if thats all they did. Nope, even as I type I realize that is asking to much. Piracy it is.
And you will note I did not state that not having the money for it justified copying them.When I was studying and without employment for a year afterwards (and 1.5 years of meager pay after that), there were tons of things I wanted to have. But I could not afford them. So I did not get them. End of story. I don´t see what would be different nowadays, besides computer technology that makes these copies readily available. Not having money to afford luxury items is no excuse for stealing them.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
Point taken, it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction on my side. Sorry! It sounded like you were making excuses for those who copy stuff.
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I'm just curious, but has their been a change to the ability to copyright rules?
From what I understand, you can copyright a game as a literary work and include the visual art, but that protects the actual text and art, not the ideas contained within as pertains to the method of playing the game.
The reason why the OGL exists is because Ryan Dancey realized that if a copyright dispute over use of gaming rules in someone else's product ever went to court, the winner would be decided by who had the best lawyer. And he didn't want a lawyer to be the one who decided whether or not you could create supplemental home rules (such as a character, monster, or campaign) based on the rules for Your Favorite Game.
So the OGL allows rules legal rules sharing, forever, irrevocably, and thus your ability to make legal house rules and new content is legal, forever, irrevocably.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees.
This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So piracy isn't stealing, it's welfare?
I'm sure creating a culture where people aren't required to pay for goods and services is going to work wonders for the purchasing power of said people once they become responsible for producing all of society's goods and services.[/sarcasm]
EDIT: Deleted and reposted this post using the proper alias. I have an entire alias dedicated to playing devil's advocate, after all.
Point taken, it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction on my side. Sorry! It sounded like you were making excuses for those who copy stuff.And you will note I did not state that not having the money for it justified copying them.When I was studying and without employment for a year afterwards (and 1.5 years of meager pay after that), there were tons of things I wanted to have. But I could not afford them. So I did not get them. End of story. I don´t see what would be different nowadays, besides computer technology that makes these copies readily available. Not having money to afford luxury items is no excuse for stealing them.
Actually the so-called digital generation is completely broke, they own nothing, they have far lower purchasing power than their less educated parent's did at the same age while having tens of thousands of dollars in debt for virtually useless degrees. They may of been given a Silver Platter, but that platter ended up costing them quite a lot.This is not a generation of haves, and that is the problem. So yeah they copy stuff when they can't afford it, and some people are dicks and abuse it.
So while perhaps its bad for them to do it, your reasons why they do are about 180 degrees from reality.
I should apologize, I am being extra combative because I saw an entire generation insulted. Its one of those things that light my fuse so to speak.
Forgive me?
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"(oh come on like you don't have RPG books in your bathroom),"
No, they are in the corridor. Humidity will damage them so I bring them to the bathroom only when I am in. ;-)
I think the list behind my name is a clear indication of my love for the physical books. As a librarian I had some bad experience with books on electronic media only and I know that a books can survive for centuries while there is no guarantee that a document on an electronic media will be readable in 5 years.
Today I count my gaming collection only in linear meters of shelves, not as a number of titles.
@ Alexandrina
I have brought my gaming paraphernalia when I was a student with hardly a $ that was his own and I buy it now that I have a steady work and a decent pay.
If your group of players hasn't the money to purchase each product, do as we did when we were young: share at the gaming table what you buy.
You can play with 1 copy of the CRB and 1 Bestiary.
If you want to have all the material one guy can buy the Companion line and another the main line of products or you can buy each hardbound on rotation, one purchase from each member of your group.
Sure, having everything in your house is nicer, but it is not mandatory.
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I'm just curious, but has their been a change to the ability to copyright rules?
From what I understand, you can copyright a game as a literary work and include the visual art, but that protects the actual text and art, not the ideas contained within as pertains to the method of playing the game.The reason why the OGL exists is because Ryan Dancey realized that if a copyright dispute over use of gaming rules in someone else's product ever went to court, the winner would be decided by who had the best lawyer. And he didn't want a lawyer to be the one who decided whether or not you could create supplemental home rules (such as a character, monster, or campaign) based on the rules for Your Favorite Game.
So the OGL allows rules legal rules sharing, forever, irrevocably, and thus your ability to make legal house rules and new content is legal, forever, irrevocably.
Sad that it wasn't already in effect when GDW was sunk by TSR with the legal costs of a cause without a basis.
Sorry, I am still bitter about that.
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I agree and I think this gets to the core of this digital generation's attitude of entitlement. If it is out there and they want it, they feel entitled to it. They have not yet had to work for a real living supporting families. Everything is handed to them on a silver platter.I think once this generation grows up and starts working and having their work taken without receiving payment (ie stolen) they will start to grow up.
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
This is technically copyright infringement:
Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And while we're on the subject!
Kids! They are just impossible to control!
Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll!
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Caine?
What's the matter with kids today!
Every generation says the generation after is a bunch of lazy entitled brats who don't know how good they have it.
The cost for an RPG company to put one billion copies of their book on people's computers is the same cost as it is to put just one book on there. The world is different today. Yes, they need to make a living off their work, but piracy is out there. Paizo is thriving regardless. The DRM they use may be mildly inconvenient to stop the most casual of piracy but it isn't actually doing anything to stop it. Paizo has the support of a very loyal fanbase who are going to buy their product period, not because it's "illegal to download it" (it is actually only infringement to upload) but because they like the company and support it.
Don't think that consuming media, even pirated, is always a bad thing. I became a loyal follower of many a TV show after hearing about it, downloading the previous episodes to catch up and then getting hooked and staying on for all the new episodes (Falling Skies just recently in fact).
I really do believe that the jerks who DL everything they can and then brag about their big downloaded movie collection were never gonna be customers. They don't represent a loss, the amount of people who DL something to give it a chance and then buy it (or buy followup products to it. Like pirating Arkham Asylum and then buying Arkham City) is better than not having them having tried it ever and never becoming a customer.
If copyrights were completely eliminated we would see Kickstarter get a huge bump as the content producers would simply work up the money to put something out before they put it out. Those without reputation or name would have to put free stuff out until they had a strong enough following to get people to pay for it (or get the backing of someone who did).
I do agree with SKR that copyright term should be 10 years or so. I think that is more than enough time to not only profit from your work, but also profit from a followup to that work (which would have its own 10 year copyright). Copyright isn't about producing new content though. It's about producing one good thing and milking it forever. How many movies in the last 5-10 years have been remakes, sequels, reboots, etc? Companies aren't willing to chance it with new things anymore and the copyright atmosphere is the reason for it.
I'm just curious, but has their been a change to the ability to copyright rules?
From what I understand, you can copyright a game as a literary work and include the visual art, but that protects the actual text and art, not the ideas contained within as pertains to the method of playing the game.The reason why the OGL exists is because Ryan Dancey realized that if a copyright dispute over use of gaming rules in someone else's product ever went to court, the winner would be decided by who had the best lawyer. And he didn't want a lawyer to be the one who decided whether or not you could create supplemental home rules (such as a character, monster, or campaign) based on the rules for Your Favorite Game.
So the OGL allows rules legal rules sharing, forever, irrevocably, and thus your ability to make legal house rules and new content is legal, forever, irrevocably.
I still appreciate that fact. It's a definite gesture of good will, I'm a fan of OGL and CC. The ability to use direct text from a work is greatly liberating and opens up the game to the community immensely.
At the same time, OSR clones of D&D 1e, are legal. They aren't allowed to use images or direct text from D&D, but the concepts and rules as executed are fair use. (Under current law, that could change and would be a sad day IMO)
An analogy from the fashion industry. You can't copyright a pattern for a garment. You can trademark your name and symbol though. That's why Louis Vuitton plasters their LV symbol all over their products. Fashion forgeries are only forgeries when you copy the LV symbol, not the garment itself.
An interesting 15-minute talk about copyright and fashion.
Edit: To add that I am appreciative when authors make their work more easily accessible. To often people put in place policies that assume the worst about people, treating customers like criminals, etc. In the current climate of clamping down, more and more, it is a bold step to publicly declare your information that you're trying to sell is also available for free.
We as consumers need to do our part as well, lending support to people who produce good works, to encourage them to produce more.
Yes, some people steal, but a lot of people are more than willing to pay what they see as reasonable prices to feel like owners of material, but that ownership also has to be real, or the process breaks down.
I should apologize, I am being extra combative because I saw an entire generation insulted. Its one of those things that light my fuse so to speak.Forgive me?
Of course. We all have those topics where we get a little ahead of our selves at times.
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In Germany, anything other than real estate can be bought and sold with a handshake and handing over the money - in principle.Yeah this got me screwed over once in Germany.. We went looking for a Living room Leather Couch set at Lederland and picked some nice furniture but expensive furniture. They asked us to put a small down payment *Very small* and come back later when they have the order filled so we can sign it. While we were gone we changed our mind. I fully expected us to lose our very small down payment. When I went there they told us we could cancel the order (which was not made yet) but since I gave them money we were obligated to give them the majority of the price of the Furniture (I think it was close to 75% of the price).
I said screw that and talked to a military lawyer who told us it was true by German law. So we ended up buying the furniture... grrrr..
Living in germany, I can tell you that it is extremly unusual to put down a down payment in this situation, and these days they should give you something to sign first.
However there might have been a way out, arguing that there was something unclear about the product, or that it didn´t function to the specifications of the seller.Paying 75% of the price however is way to much.
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Holy balls. This thread sure blew up.
So, um. Everyone claiming that they "wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it isn't stealing," I have a quick question! What if you like the pirated item so much that you decide it would've been worth the price, if you'd paid for it? Do you go back and buy it even though you've already got it? Be honest.
If you said "yes," are you, in fact, full of it? Tell the truth! ;-) And whether you are or aren't, do you think everyone else who cites the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument would answer the same way, if they had to come clean about it? Pirates go back and buy the products that they deem to be worth the price, after reading / watching / listening to them? Probably not, right?
Sort of invalidates the argument, doesn't it?
I sell third-party products, and I'd be pretty upset to learn that my PDFs were being acquired by a bunch of people who "wouldn't have bought it anyway." I'd be even more upset to learn that those people were uploading my PDFs to torrent sites and and P2P sharing sites where other people who "wouldn't have bought it anyway" are also acquiring my creative works.
Wouldn't you?
I have been purchasing Paizo’s products ever since I bought the Beginner’s Box early this year. The medium that I have chosen for my purchases are PDF. This is my personal preference because I find PDF’s easy to use. I never share these PDF’s with anybody except with my fiancée (bought with “our” money).
Now, my views on piracy mostly go along with what James Jacobs previously said. It stinks as a consumer that I have to go extra lengths and pay extra money so that the PDF’s that I buy from Paizo do not get copied by intruders on my computer. I hate that there are risks to buying PDF’s. In a perfect world I wish that wouldn’t happen.
I’m always on the belief that no matter how much you plan or protect things, you cannot account for the risks termed as unknown unknowns.
The part where I consented in any way to something other than an exchange of property. Little thing really. On a related note, I got a contract here that says you own me a bridge in Brooklyn. I can haz?Can you show me my signature on any of these contracts I allegedly signed? ;)Umm... what part of
You don't have to sign a contract to enter it.do you need further elaboration on?
Edit: Darn. Ninja'ed by the grab bag.
Aren't you the same guy who was demanding that you weren't making a purchase of property when you purchase electronic media?
You enter into a EULA every time you purchase and use electronic media. Agreeing to the EULA is a requirement for use of the media. This is hardly recent news, or anything anyone tries to hide, except for those who enter into the agreement under false pretenses, intending to violate it.
That is somewhat different when it comes to crossing borders. If I buy something in Paizo's store and their EULA states something that is illegal by German law, the passage becomes null and void.
That was the issue about the whole EA Origin disaster. EA just had the US EULA of Origin translated (badly) into German, which violated German customer protections laws in multiple instances (especially the part where it allowed EA to rifle through your computer's hard drive).
And just to add another difference to the US: In Germany, you are allowed to make copies of digital media and give up to 7 (tne number is disputed) of them to your family and friends, provided you paid for the original, and they are intended for personal use. If you got it illegally, giving it away stays illegal. There are - as always - other restrictions (you aren't allowed to break copy protection, for example).
Wouldn't you?
No.
But im not trying to make a living off my petty scribblings and snapshots. I'd just be happy other people took an interest.
This is probably just me though. Im not surprised other people feel differently.
At the same time, OSR clones of D&D 1e, are legal. They aren't allowed to use images or direct text from D&D, but the concepts and rules as executed are fair use. (Under current law, that could change and would be a sad day IMO)
All I'm saying is that a good lawyer arguing against you could win the case and tilt the balance for all derivative works like this.
It is hard to respect IP law when IP law has deviated so far from its original intention. We as a society believed that furthering art was beneficial to us and so we granted the content producers with exclusive rights to their creations for a limited time to encourage them to produce that content with the intention it would be gifted to the people afterwards.
Now that copyright term is 90 years rather than 14, and will probably go up again in the next twenty years, it is impossible to respect IP law. I would ask Paizo how much they would like it if none of Lovecraft's, Shakespeare's or even Plato's works were available for them to draw on to produce the game.
This would be a more convincing argument if people were waiting 15-20 years to pirate stuff "after a reasonable time" like IP laws originally intended. But since Paizo hasn't even been in existence for 15 years, it's not like they are sitting on their legacy of 50 year old content. That, and as has been pointed out, they already put more Open Game Content out than any other RPG company.
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I do agree that copyright law and similar laws probably need some major revision and adjustment now that the world has chanced so much.
I would certainly be disappointed if Lovecraft's, Shakespeare's, Plato's, or whoever's work was not publicly available, but no more so than I'm disappointed that Wizards of the Coast's intellectual properties or the monsters from "Pan's Labyrinth" or the contents of Stephen King's Dark Tower series aren't publicly available. Pathfinder has PLENTY of options inspired by those non-open sources, and had Lovecrat's and the rests's work not been public, it could still inspire us the same way. We'd just have different monsters and themes; the game itself would pretty much be in the same place.
Now, all that said, I'm very very very not okay with IP piracy, for two reasons:
1) It disrespects the content creator and publisher and makes it more difficult for the content creator and publisher to be rewarded for their hard work.
2) It freaks out big businesses who then over-react and make their products less attractive to actual customers (DRM anyone?) while not really impacting the pirates at all.
In short... piracy makes the world suck more for those of us who aren't pirates.
Very true, if you like something vote with you wallet, it works if enough people do it.
It´s really sad when pirates actually get a better working gamen than the customer (Heroes of Might and Magic 6). Thankfully Paizo is wonderfull when it comes to that. You only start to appreciate something like that when it´s gone.
I used a great spell card generator to print out all the spells for my Magus sorted by spell level. It saves a lot of time. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-card-generator/spell-card-generator
I wanted to prepare the same thing for one of my players who uses the the german rules (we have several versions of the Pathfinder Grundregelwerk and the APG) unfortuately the german publisher is quite a bit more restrictive when it comes to fan project. After some resarch I found out that something like that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Still they publish german pathfinder material with a speed and quality that I really can´t complain.
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Holy balls. This thread sure blew up.
So, um. Everyone claiming that they "wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it isn't stealing," I have a quick question! What if you like the pirated item so much that you decide it would've been worth the price, if you'd paid for it? Do you go back and buy it even though you've already got it? Be honest.
If you said "yes," are you, in fact, full of it? Tell the truth! ;-) And whether you are or aren't, do you think everyone else who cites the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument would answer the same way, if they had to come clean about it? Pirates go back and buy the products that they deem to be worth the price, after reading / watching / listening to them? Probably not, right?
Sort of invalidates the argument, doesn't it?
I sell third-party products, and I'd be pretty upset to learn that my PDFs were being acquired by a bunch of people who "wouldn't have bought it anyway." I'd be even more upset to learn that those people were uploading my PDFs to torrent sites and and P2P sharing sites where other people who "wouldn't have bought it anyway" are also acquiring my creative works.
Wouldn't you?
I in fact have. I "pirated" Civ V, and when Gods and Kings came out went and bought it and the base game on steam.
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I agree and I think this gets to the core of this digital generation's attitude of entitlement. If it is out there and they want it, they feel entitled to it. They have not yet had to work for a real living supporting families. Everything is handed to them on a silver platter.I think once this generation grows up and starts working and having their work taken without receiving payment (ie stolen) they will start to grow up.
Krome, you shouldn't make this a generational issue.
Yes I photocopied stuff from Dragon all the time. From magazines I bought.
And presumably your friends used said copies? Or they made copies of your copies? This is the same thing. Only you are avoiding blame because you are not from the 'digital generation'. How is what you did different from someone who buys the PDf and makes copies of that file?
I was a broke student too. I had nothing. I worked my a$$ off in construction and paid to put myself through school over 10 years because I couldn't get loans because my credit sucked....
That's wonderful. I'm going to go ahead and guess you are from a much older generation than I. Last time I checked tuition now a days is atrocious. Today's college students and graduates are debt slaves in an economy with low opportunities raised by a generation that told us you have to go to college to get a good job.
I don't know what generation you are from, I sure hope it isn't the entitled baby-boomer generation that had the WORLD on a silver platter and managed to screw things up for the rest of us.
Whew.
In the end, it doens't matter how old you are or what generation you are from. Digital piracy is done by all types of folks. Don't try to insinuate this is a 'entitled digital generation' issue.
Thanks.
Wouldn't you?No.
But im not trying to make a living off my petty scribblings and snapshots. I'd just be happy other people took an interest.
This is probably just me though. Im not surprised other people feel differently.
Fair enough... now imagine instead that piracy drives your profits down enough that the production of your material costs you time and money that you can no longer afford.
Or, to use a less dire scenario, what if you simply stop being able to produce as many products, as often?
Large or small, piracy has an impact. For the little guy (like me), the odds are stacked against your success from the beginning. It's not easy to turn a profit from a new venture, or to keep it viable. I'd wager that anyone at Paizo in their early days would've attested to that.
Piracy isn't harmless is what I'm saying, I guess.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
At the same time, OSR clones of D&D 1e, are legal. They aren't allowed to use images or direct text from D&D, but the concepts and rules as executed are fair use. (Under current law, that could change and would be a sad day IMO)All I'm saying is that a good lawyer arguing against you could win the case and tilt the balance for all derivative works like this.
Agreed. The legal system is great, except for when it isn't.
The cost for an RPG company to put one billion copies of their book on people's computers is the same cost as it is to put just one book on there.False.
The e-commerce infrastructure to support the sale and distribution of a billion copies of a work of significant size (say, 300+ pages with lots of imbedded artwork?) is NOT insignificant and easily ignored, despite your claims otherwise.
Ironically this is the primary purpose of the bit torrent protocol. Need to get a billion copies out? don't have the bandwidth? Run a torrent, The bandwidth requirement gets distributed among the downloaders. Each downloader receives a random chunk, then uploads that random chunk to other downloaders. So very rapidly the torrent can by far exceed the capacity of the original uploader.
For those who play, or have played World of Warcraft, this is why the downloader uses bit torrent , instead of a direct download. Because they literally have to put 10 million copies of every patch in a mater of hours.
Wouldn't you?No.
But im not trying to make a living off my petty scribblings and snapshots. I'd just be happy other people took an interest.
This is probably just me though. Im not surprised other people feel differently.
Fair enough... now imagine instead that piracy drives your profits down enough that the production of your material costs you time and money that you can no longer afford.
Or, to use a less dire scenario, what if you simply stop being able to produce as many products, as often?
Large or small, piracy has an impact. For the little guy (like me), the odds are stacked against your success from the beginning. It's not easy to turn a profit from a new venture, or to keep it viable. I'd wager that anyone at Paizo in their early days would've attested to that.
Piracy isn't harmless is what I'm saying, I guess.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
I understand what you are saying, and I feel for you. However the problem is you can't make 'piracy' go away. The genie is out of the bottle, to quote a classic video game "Pandora's box has been open". Bonus points if you recognize it.
So what do we do now?
I don't have an answer for that. This is the reality so how do we adapt to it? I am not sure, society is changing right now. Its an interesting time to be around.
Well, more importantly, we don't do this or this, either.
Still, "what's done is done" and "pirates gonna pirate" aren't suitable answers to the question.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
Those are all great ways to paint yourself as a greedy faceless blob of lawyers out for more money!
Which my gut tells me people will feel differently about 'stealing' from than a guy like Abandoned Arts here, or a group like Paizo, who are trying to make a living off content they are creating.
'Pirates' gonna 'Pirate'. May not be a suitable answer but it is the reality.
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Paizo's policy is to declare all rules content as Open (only limiting stuff in the Product Identity section, which includes proper names, art, and so on). That is generosity, and should not be glossed over.
Abso-frickin-lutely.
People think just because the OGL exists Paizo MUST share everything freely dancing, singing, and tossing flowers into the crowd. Not true. Paizo throws us flowers cuz they're effing cool.
Senior Software Developer
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"Pirates gonna pirate" doesn't actually have to be the reality. As a society we get to choose what behaviors we'll accept and which we won't. Just because something happens "on the internet" doesn't put it beyond the bounds of what's generally agreed upon to be acceptable.
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The cost for an RPG company to put one billion copies of their book on people's computers is the same cost as it is to put just one book on there.False.
The e-commerce infrastructure to support the sale and distribution of a billion copies of a work of significant size (say, 300+ pages with lots of imbedded artwork?) is NOT insignificant and easily ignored, despite your claims otherwise.
Ironically this is the primary purpose of the bit torrent protocol. Need to get a billion copies out? don't have the bandwidth? Run a torrent, The bandwidth requirement gets distributed among the downloaders. Each downloader receives a random chunk, then uploads that random chunk to other downloaders. So very rapidly the torrent can by far exceed the capacity of the original uploader.
For those who play, or have played World of Warcraft, this is why the downloader uses bit torrent , instead of a direct download. Because they literally have to put 10 million copies of every patch in a mater of hours.
Yes torrents aren´t evil, I even have one installed on my work laptop to download big packages of legal software. Of course you have to be carefull what you let the programm upload.
"Pirates gonna pirate" doesn't actually have to be the reality. As a society we get to choose what behaviors we'll accept and which we won't. Just because something happens "on the internet" doesn't put it beyond the bounds of what's generally agreed upon to be acceptable.
Alright, fair enough. How do we enforce it as a society then?
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"Pirates gonna pirate" doesn't actually have to be the reality. As a society we get to choose what behaviors we'll accept and which we won't. Just because something happens "on the internet" doesn't put it beyond the bounds of what's generally agreed upon to be acceptable.Alright, fair enough. How do we enforce it as a society then?
Same as with policing everything else, elect officials who have enforcing X on their agenda and hope for the best.
Holy balls. This thread sure blew up.
So, um. Everyone claiming that they "wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it isn't stealing," I have a quick question! What if you like the pirated item so much that you decide it would've been worth the price, if you'd paid for it? Do you go back and buy it even though you've already got it? Be honest.
If you said "yes," are you, in fact, full of it? Tell the truth! ;-) And whether you are or aren't, do you think everyone else who cites the "wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument would answer the same way, if they had to come clean about it? Pirates go back and buy the products that they deem to be worth the price, after reading / watching / listening to them? Probably not, right?
In most cases no, but I personally know people who do just that.
Same as with policing everything else, elect officials who have enforcing X on their agenda and hope for the best."Pirates gonna pirate" doesn't actually have to be the reality. As a society we get to choose what behaviors we'll accept and which we won't. Just because something happens "on the internet" doesn't put it beyond the bounds of what's generally agreed upon to be acceptable.Alright, fair enough. How do we enforce it as a society then?
No, I mean how do we enforce it? How does Politician A enforce it? Whats the crunch here (so to speak)