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Ambrosia, honestly I am a bit confused on what this 'math' is or what it is supposed to proof. Most of the issues I pointed out have very very little to do with math, the math he showed was hardly convincing on any point I was making. Which was not zomg overpowered psionics.
If you remain unconvinced by the rules explanations and the math/mechanics already presented, all I can suggest is two recommendations: 1) clearly state specific concerns or possible issues, and let someone intimately familiar with 3.5 XPH or Dreamscarred's psionics answer it, and 2) roll up a psion yourself and play it. There are a lot of psion/psionic abilities/powers that may seem overpowered or unbalanced at a first glance through the rules, but further familiarity -- especially once seen in actual combat -- will reveal the actual limitations and balance of the class and psionics system.
Neither do I seek to change anyone's opinion, I am discussing psionics here to gain insight, to which Matt did not contribute at all and rather made me feel to not want to discuss it at all.
Matt is Matt. He and I have butted heads before on non-RPG positions, and probably will again in the future. :) But whether you agree with his tone or presentation, he does know his psionics like the back of his (left) hand.
Now I do not pretend to have extensive experience with psionics and have not used it much, but I am an experienced GM and player and have a fair sense of balance. If that discredits me from discussing anything remotely related to psionics then I will 'gladly' take my leave from this thread.
If I hadn't played and GMed psionics extensively, then I too might have a similar response. Again, I strongly recommend you don't just look at it, but play it/GM it. See it in action first. The PDF is only $10, and the rules are available for free too.
Now I enjoy the discussion with Dabbler and he has pointed out a few things that are helpful to at least understand his position, wether I agree with that is another thing entirely.
Now I'm puzzled. If you want to posit specific examples, powers, or psion builds to back up your concerns, then please feel free to do so. But if you want to take a position on the rules or mechanics without presenting supporting evidence, then I don't see your point.
As a side note it is wise NOT to anger your GM when attempting to get something approved in her game. That only leads to a blanket arbitrary ban on whatever it is you are trying to do.
HAH! Jokes on you Paizo Website! I typed it up in Word this time!
I don't own Ultimate Magic... I have briefly looked through a copy. I must have missed all these point based casters. I am curious about them now. I don't see them being used in online games... did they nerf them somehow?
Ultimate Magic introduced the Qinggong Monk Archetype for the Monk. It allows the Monk to trade out certain abilities, such as Slow Fall, for the ability to cast spells, temporarily use Feats, or other such abilities.
One of the most common usages is to trade out Slow Fall for Barkskin. That allows the Monk to spend 1 Ki Point to give himself Barkskin with a caster level equal to his Monk level.
Now, the fun part is when you start mixing Archetypes. Sepcifically, the Sensei Archetype. Why that one specifically? Simple, the Sensei has the Advice ability which is almost exactly like Bardic Music in that the Sensei can Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence and similar things.
However, the real fun is at 6th and 12th level with Mystic Wisdom. Mystic Wisdom allows the Sensei to grant Monk class abilities based off Ki to allies. Remember the Qinggong Monk? Did you know all those abilities are considered class abilities based off Ki? Yup, see where I’m going?
A 12th level Qinggong/Sensei could have traded out Slow Fall for Barkskin, and in doing so, he can give all allies within 30 ft the ability to cast Barkskin on themselves using his Monk level. So now the whole party gets +5 Natural Armor Enhancement for 120 minutes. All for the cost of a single Ki Point. A point well spent in my opinion.
Time to go crazy now.
Let’s say the Qinggong/Sensei didn’t pick up Barkskin (I Know! Crazy right?!). Let’s say he instead picked up… Scorching Ray when he traded out Slow Fall. Don’t jump ahead of me people.
At 12th level, the Qinggong/Sensei can spend 2 Ki points and grant all allies within 30 ft the ability to cast Scorching Ray. So, assuming a party of 5, this means the Qinggong/Sensei just allowed the party to shoot 12 rays of Fire that deal 4d6 points of damage each. I say 12 and not 15, because, although Advice is identical to Bardic Music and can be maintained as a free action, Mystic Wisdom specifies that he has to spend the same action as the ability he’s granting to his allies. So he has to use a Standard Action to give all allies the Scorching Ray ability, at which point they can then spend their Standard Actions casting Scorching Ray.
There are other abilities too. He has limited healing potential through Wholeness of Body, or limited Transportation through Shadow Walk. Through the Qinggong Monk’s 14th level Ki Powers, Diamond Soul has no Ki Point cost nor an activation time. So the Qinggong Monk could buff the party against say, a Lich, by using Advice and spending no actions or Ki to give the whole party Spell Resistance equal to 10 + his Monk level.
So, while the Qinggong/Sensei isn’t a true caster, he sure does look like one at first glance. In many ways, the Qinggong Archetype transforms the Ki Pool into a Power Point System, though as a much more limited resource.
As a side note it is wise NOT to anger your GM when attempting to get something approved in her game. That only leads to a blanket arbitrary ban on whatever it is you are trying to do.
If I know I'm going to poke the GM bear, I tend to bring bribes of extra munchies and beverages to that game session that she also likes. :) But that said, if something doesn't fit the flavor of her campaign setting -- whether its psionics or catfolk or tieflings or magii or whatevs -- I politely make my best case once, and then let it go.
Tels one trick I long ago learned to use was to type it up on the site like normal BUT use the Control-C to copy it in case the site crashes. That way I can just paste it back when the site comes back up.
Tels one trick I long ago learned to use was to type it up on the site like normal BUT use the Control-C to copy it in case the site crashes. That way I can just paste it back when the site comes back up.
I know that trick, what really annoyed me was that, the second time, while I was in the middle of typing my post, the website just randomly loaded the Paizo Homepage in the tab I was typing in, then just as quickly re-loaded this thread with a blank message box forcing me to type the message for the third time.
Ahh see Ambrosia is wise and may very well get to play a psion where Matthew likely never would get the chance.
BTW I was only arguing that it was possible to break the old 3.5 psionics, NOT the new Pathfinder based product. But since they based it on 3.5 psionics I would need strong convincing to be certain it wasn't breakable.
Orthos I don't like the way slot casters get left behind in a mixed game. As a wizard many of my low level effects are unused and pointless. A psion can always pump his abilities up to keep them useful. Is this a perfect science or does it break the game? No but it is aggravating in a mixed game. Also it is annoying to have one or two uses of your brand new higher level ability while the psion next to you can use his repeatedly if he wants to. Broken? Perhaps not, but still it leaves a bad taste to mix the two.
Dabbler gets to play too right Aranna? Dabbler's awesome.
I'm more annoyed at the ability to stealth cast for free, which is something I'm almost always very interested in when playing an arcane caster (far more than combat). It costs a normal spellcaster a huge ordeal to be able to, and even then may technically be impossible.
But that's not about class power. It's about what I see as normally minor features that obsolete nonstandard concepts of mine.
Psionics may not be overpowered.
But they're sure as hell aggravating.
You know, I have to wonder if/when Paizo does Psionics, it'll be more akin to Witch Hexes or Oracle Mysteries, with different Archetypes doing different things. Like choosing a Psionic Mysteries grants certain abilities (like Hexes) that are all day at-will abilities, and the Archetype's modify those Mysteries and Hexes to do different things.
I imagine if/when Psiconics does make an official debute it'll be a pseudo-arcane/divine caster like the Alchemist is an arcane caster, but not an arcane caster.
I know that trick, what really annoyed me was that, the second time, while I was in the middle of typing my post, the website just randomly loaded the Paizo Homepage in the tab I was typing in, then just as quickly re-loaded this thread with a blank message box forcing me to type the message for the third time.Tels one trick I long ago learned to use was to type it up on the site like normal BUT use the Control-C to copy it in case the site crashes. That way I can just paste it back when the site comes back up.
Orthos I don't like the way slot casters get left behind in a mixed game. As a wizard many of my low level effects are unused and pointless. A psion can always pump his abilities up to keep them useful. Is this a perfect science or does it break the game? No but it is aggravating in a mixed game. Also it is annoying to have one or two uses of your brand new higher level ability while the psion next to you can use his repeatedly if he wants to. Broken? Perhaps not, but still it leaves a bad taste to mix the two.
Uh. Okay. Doesn't make any sense to me but if that's how you feel fair enough.
Ahh see Ambrosia is wise and may very well get to play a psion where Matthew likely never would get the chance.
I never claimed to be wise. :) And I think Matt is generally stuck GMing because no one else wants to... which would make anyone grumpy.
BTW I was only arguing that it was possible to break the old 3.5 psionics, NOT the new Pathfinder based product. But since they based it on 3.5 psionics I would need strong convincing to be certain it wasn't breakable.
I can't recommend enough simply playing it before settling on an opinion either way. Even then, you might find it just isn't your cup of tea. Which again, is perfectly fine.
Orthos I don't like the way slot casters get left behind in a mixed game. As a wizard many of my low level effects are unused and pointless. A psion can always pump his abilities up to keep them useful. Is this a perfect science or does it break the game? No but it is aggravating in a mixed game. Also it is annoying to have one or two uses of your brand new higher level ability while the psion next to you can use his repeatedly if he wants to. Broken? Perhaps not, but still it leaves a bad taste to mix the two.
When playing as a sorcerer or wizard, yeah, many of those lower level spells don't scale well against higher level opponents. So I'd fill/expend those slots on party buffs, utilities, and spells to take out mooks and BBEG's assistants/entourage. As a wizard or sorcerer, I had a wider selection of spells known, and those higher level spells already autoscaled with my PC level. Psions can pump their lower-level powers higher, but have to burn massive PPs to do so, and they know less powers to boot, so they really don't have much choice. I've never played a sorcerer/wizard PC in a tough fight and thought I should have instead chosen a psion. Never. Psions appeal to me for their precision in resource expenditure and for their flavor. For raw power and versatility, I always go with a wizard or sorcerer (or occasionally a druid).
A psion that burns all his PPs on boosting low-level powers to high-level output is a like a glass-cannon built magus. It's awesome for 1 fight, and starts to run out of resources in the 2nd fight. A psion (or magus) that regularly turns into a near-non-contributing party member -- and worse, a drain on party healing/buffing resources -- quickly stops being fun.
I'm kinda hoping by the time Paizo decides what it wants to do with Psionics, it's in conjunction with their Epic Level ruleset to show how a post 20 enlightened arcanist 'casts' spells. In armor, no or little material components...that would be neat.
Most people regard metamagic in general useless with a few exceptions, intensify, empower and quicken mostly. In your opinion is there a use for metapsionics or is it near useless ?
It has the same uses as metamagic. Some people love metamagic, and some hate it. The same with metapsionics, really.
I understand that everything pretty much drains PP, but that is actually one of my objections to the class since it might not last that many encounters at capacity, but unlike the sorcerer often able to use it's full capacity of PP creating a very swingy character class. Any thoughts on that ?
Yes, you can be swingy. A psionic manifester has to husband their resources for when they need them. If you have one encounter per day, you can cake-walk it. If you have multiple, you can struggle. It's the same as for any caster, but more so. That is one issue with the psionics system that can be seen as a negative, that the elegant power point system that works so intuitively can actually work a bit too well at times if you are used to Vancian casting.
That said, it only has to happen once or twice before you learn to limit yourself and spend your resources carefully.
A psion is a sprinter in a middle-distance race; he has to husband his strength and try and keep up so he can pull out a sprint finish.
I might experiment building an alternate sorcerer using psionic powers as spells and using a power point system, as a sort of crossover class between the two. Considering I still want to use Verbal and Somatic components, do you foresee any issues with such a class or have any advice on building it ?
A lot of people would say this is how magic in D&D should have worked in the beginning. The big issue is the power point cap; that's what limits psionics the most and keeps it in line. 90% of cases of 'psionics is broken' issues come from somebody forgetting this rule.
Has anyone actually converted the Powers over to Spells in slots to see where Psionics actually place? Dabbler, you mentioned Energy Ball is most like Fireball, but a 4th level Power, so in the conversion, make it take the same spell slot as Fireball with the same cap of 10d6.
It might really put relative powers into perspective for those who aren't intimately familiar with Psionics when compared to casters.
I know that trick, what really annoyed me was that, the second time, while I was in the middle of typing my post, the website just randomly loaded the Paizo Homepage in the tab I was typing in, then just as quickly re-loaded this thread with a blank message box forcing me to type the message for the third time.Tels one trick I long ago learned to use was to type it up on the site like normal BUT use the Control-C to copy it in case the site crashes. That way I can just paste it back when the site comes back up.
Orthos I don't like the way slot casters get left behind in a mixed game. As a wizard many of my low level effects are unused and pointless. A psion can always pump his abilities up to keep them useful. Is this a perfect science or does it break the game? No but it is aggravating in a mixed game. Also it is annoying to have one or two uses of your brand new higher level ability while the psion next to you can use his repeatedly if he wants to. Broken? Perhaps not, but still it leaves a bad taste to mix the two.Uh. Okay. Doesn't make any sense to me but if that's how you feel fair enough.
Off topic : do they have Lazarus for Chrome?
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I just picked up Psionics Unleashed and am reading through it right now. I got to Maenads and something popped into my head. I couldn't help but picture the scene from Avengers...
Thoughts? I would so love to use that line in a game session. I foresee large amounts of laughter.
One difference I've seen between a point based system and a slot based system, is that when a point based character gains a new level of spells/abilities, they can spend all their point on the new level, whereas a slot based caster is limited to the number of slots gained of the new level of spells/abilities. Over the long run, things even out for the most part, but at times it allows for a larger jump in power at certain level breaks.
That depends on what powers they get in the new level and what requirements come up. I'm running a wilder in a game on these boards, and she's been relying on energy raysince level one as her staple. It's not that she can't do other stuff, but that the other stuff she can do has limitations and advantages that make those powers great for other situations, but in combat it's energy ray all the way...
BTW I was only arguing that it was possible to break the old 3.5 psionics, NOT the new Pathfinder based product. But since they based it on 3.5 psionics I would need strong convincing to be certain it wasn't breakable.
I was on the playtests for DSP, and we did try and catch some of the known issues. Many of them were not with the system per se, but with the powers within it - just as there were broken spells in 3.5 too.
Orthos I don't like the way slot casters get left behind in a mixed game. As a wizard many of my low level effects are unused and pointless. A psion can always pump his abilities up to keep them useful. Is this a perfect science or does it break the game? No but it is aggravating in a mixed game. Also it is annoying to have one or two uses of your brand new higher level ability while the psion next to you can use his repeatedly if he wants to. Broken? Perhaps not, but still it leaves a bad taste to mix the two.
Again, you have to play a psion or a wilder to appreciate the issue with more depth.
At level 20, a specialist wizard has 55 spell slots at his disposal and as many spells as...well at that level probably the entire CRB of spells known. A sorcerer has 52 spells known, including cantrips and bloodline spells. A psion has 36 powers known. So the fact that a psion's powers may have multiple uses and lower level powers stay relevant if augmented (although this costs them resources) compensates for the lesser number of powers known.
Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages, situations where one will shine and the other will not.
I just picked up Psionics Unleashed and am reading through it right now. I got to Maenads and something popped into my head. I couldn't help but picture the scene from Avengers...
** spoiler omitted **
Thoughts? I would so love to use that line in a game session. I foresee large amounts of laughter.
By the gods, I want to play a Maenad Barbarian now....
Also, at least one person has mentioned the lack of devs chiming in on this argument. How about said person takes into account that the only reason one of those devs from Psionics Unleashed hasn't posted any math is because Matt and Dabbler are doing just fine with it? And I'd be referring to myself there. Jeremy and Andreas may not have popped in on this one, but I'd be Phil, the additional designer for Psionics Unleashed and Psionics Expanded (though I had far less to do with Expanded - hooray for real life).
It's a pretty interesting approach. While Dreamscarred took the 3.5 psionics and "pathfinderized" them, Psionics Transcended reworked psionics to make the classes more like spellcasters. It's a matter of taste, but PT will appeal to GMs who don't like the point system.
Yeah, I tend to like it better than the point system myself. As noted above, I do like the 3.5 Psionics system quite a bit, but I think adding an entirely different mechanic to something that is- functionally, at least as it usually has been (ie, alt-spellcasting, complete with similar "spells"), is kind of bad. I'd rather keep mechanics as similar as possible.
I don't like PT's psyker class. I never cared for the idea of the soulknife as a psionic character without any psionic powers. I don't know why they call it an alternative to the bard class, though.
This I definitely agree with. Probably the part of PT that I dislike the most. From the name (which just fails to 'wow' me) to making it for no discernible reason a bard alternate class.
Otherwise, again, PT is a nice approach.
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Re: I'm not a designer, not by a long shot. I don't claim creditials I don't have. I wrote an item, playtested, and helped as part of the Mind's Eye crew.
Re Novas (PFRPG vs PU)
"The sorcerer only has a few 9th level powers a few 8th level powers..."
And the difference is free augmenting.
Damage is a nice stable non swingy example. So we'll take the Kinecticist power tornado blast. 17 power points gives you a DC of 19+ attribute, and if we 'unload' at 20 PP, it's a DC of 20+attribute for 20d6. You can try to aim it at 1 person for 8d6 (no save).
Sounds pretty nasty right? Ok, meteor swarm, 9th level same range. 4 6d6 fireballs. If you aim them at one target, you get 4 ranged attack rolls for 2d6 bludgeoning, and 6d6 booms. So you can hit some poor sap for 8d6 (no save) and 24d6 (save for half) DC is 'only'19+attribute.
But Matthew, you may say, the sorcerer can only throw 6 of these, the psion can throw 14!
True, so after 6 meteor swarms, the sorcerer can switch to horrid wilting and do 20d6 in a 60' R, sure it's 'only' a DC of 18+stat, but his 8th level spells are doing the damage output that the psion needs to effectively throw 10.5th level spells to match.
So that's 12 20d6 attacks for each. But the Psion has 2 more, that's not fair!
Well the Sorcerer can then drop down to his 7th level spells. So that's oh wait, delayed blast fireball does 20d6 in a 20' radius, so unless they're blasting armies, they're still doing similar damage, with the sorcerer having a lower save.
Now the Psion is tuckered out, barely keeping ahead of the sorcerer. OF course the sorcerer has 2 of his 7th level spells (2 more 20d6) and all of his lower spell levels. Now that's not counting that even if the sorcerer doesn't know all the 9th level spells, he can have a wider variety. Our kinectist can't have true metamorphisis or psychic chiurgery. Our sorcerer can have shapechange or power word kill.
To go another route, many people argue energy ball is the blaster's friend. While it's true that 14 20d6 energy balls seem good, a) except for the save it's the same curve as the delayed blast fireball with an understandably better save and b) globe of invulnerability stops energy ball cold, whether it be 7 PP or 70 PP.
Re: Stealth Casting
Psionics are just like Witch hexes, Magus arcana, inquisitor judgements etc. They're different not unbalanced and they're just at home (and more welcomed) than synthisits.
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Re: Infinate power point trick.
The most common 'trick' was to use two feats from Races of Stone (Earth Sense and one other IIRC) and a Torc of Power Preservation to reduce the cost of bestow power to one point. So it was two feats from one book, an item from another, and a GM w/o common sense.
Untapped Potential added this:
Special: The power point cost of this power cannot be reduced below the number of power points transferred.
All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points; sources such as wild surge cannot pay for this effect. This power is not subject to the effects of affinity field.
UP does a lot of hole cleaning (psi-crystal replacement, metaconcert, etc etc.)
Hey, Mr. Morris, check your inbox!
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You know, I play in a game every other week that features the following characters, all gestalt: Barbarian/Psychic Warrior 11, Gunslinger Rogue 11, and Oracle(Heavens)/Avatar 11.
The G/R is tossing around touch attacks like they're going out of style. The B/PW is bumping up her Armor Class and using her powers to augment her attacks before she rages. The O/A handles healing, casts a powerful Color SPray when things get too close, and has at-will rays she can add special effects to.
We all have fun, and haven't felt like we outshine each other. Ever.
We've got Paizo, Homebrew, and DSP classes mixing and everyone is pretty balanced. That's just my experience, and probably has nothing to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd share it anyway. :)
People need to calm down too, so I hope that happens too.
People need to calm down too, so I hope that happens too.
Ars Magica is essentially the Trope Namer for collaborative play. Magic is essentially three forms, spontaeous and fomulaic magic cast by magi and the like and various magical quirks that Companions might have...
Thanks a lot LazarX much appreciate, that system really sound great I also prefer something like that, that is why I like it so much the words of power, wizards should definitely be like that, I'm not sure about sorcerer, I believe a sorcerer would work better with point system like the mana sorcerer.
Ambrosia, honestly I am a bit confused on what this 'math' is or what it is supposed to proof. Most of the issues I pointed out have very very little to do with math, the math he showed was hardly convincing on any point I was making. Which was not zomg overpowered psionics.If you remain unconvinced by the rules explanations and the math/mechanics already presented, all I can suggest is two recommendations: 1) clearly state specific concerns or possible issues, and let someone intimately familiar with 3.5 XPH or Dreamscarred's psionics answer it, and 2) roll up a psion yourself and play it. There are a lot of psion/psionic abilities/powers that may seem overpowered or unbalanced at a first glance through the rules, but further familiarity -- especially once seen in actual combat -- will reveal the actual limitations and balance of the class and psionics system.
read the posts between Dabbler and myself if you can be bothered they tend to be a bit lengthy, I have played with psionics in 3.5 and have the dreamscarred pdf available to me when I am at home though it is not used yet
Neither do I seek to change anyone's opinion, I am discussing psionics here to gain insight, to which Matt did not contribute at all and rather made me feel to not want to discuss it at all.Matt is Matt. He and I have butted heads before on non-RPG positions, and probably will again in the future. :) But whether you agree with his tone or presentation, he does know his psionics like the back of his (left) hand.
I realize that coming into a psionic themed forum post people will tend to be biased pro-psionics and people will tend to be lenient with people they agree with but his tone has been less than respectful but I am not willing to get back to that.
Now I do not pretend to have extensive experience with psionics and have not used it much, but I am an experienced GM and player and have a fair sense of balance. If that discredits me from discussing anything remotely related to psionics then I will 'gladly' take my leave from this thread.If I hadn't played and GMed psionics extensively, then I too might have a similar response. Again, I strongly recommend you don't just look at it, but play it/GM it. See it in action first. The PDF is only $10, and the rules are available for free...
Well I am a GM most of the time, while I would be favorably inclined to allow it on a trial run not many GMs are interested in reading a book of psionics to understand what they are dealing with just to allow a character in the game, especially when you are running AP's rather than a homebrew. I do have the PDF by the way though not with me presently
Well I am a GM most of the time, while I would be favorably inclined to allow it on a trial run not many GMs are interested in reading a book of psionics to understand what they are dealing with just to allow a character in the game, especially when you are running AP's rather than a homebrew. I do have the PDF by the way though not with me presently
Well, if you want to point them at a conventional AP with psionics in, there is this one, and this with a single psionic class in.
People need to calm down too, so I hope that happens too.I'm completely calm.
I am not sure whether to laugh or cry... I know I get crazy at certain people when they get under my skin. But I hope I don't sound THAT crazed. At least I am fairly certain I didn't completely lose my cool in this thread... others? well we won't discuss those. Let's just say sometimes I am wise enough to walk away from trolls, other times this is probably how I sound.
Either way I feel sorry for the girl in the video... someone sure did push her buttons.
That's Katara from Avatar the Last Airbender. It's an animated series on Nickelodeon and an awesome one at that.
[Edit] In the show, she's supposed to act as the voice of reason and works as the 'more mature' member of the group. In that particular scene, the group had been traveling for a long time and every time they tried to set up camp, they were attacked by their enemies so they would have to flee. Toph, another character and the one inside the rock tent, was teasing and taunting Katara, whom was on her last straw (and probably her monthly), and she just snapped.
No one has done that in this thread, not really. It's just when Azten said we should calm down, that scene instantly popped into my head.
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Re: Tacticslion Read it, I'll need to get home to look at the links.
Re: Aranna Yes, I'm sure when you find that Other Aranna who was arguing from the consensus of "psionics users" you'll give her a good thrashing.
As to "Honey v Vinegar" I give you points for apologizing for calling me a liar. Oh wait...
Re: Orange
One advantage of running PFS is having to have a grounding in all the rules. It also gives me a reason to say "That doesn't sound right, show me" and "huh, I learned something new." I learned a lot about animal companions, for example, because we had a druid at the table and I (and he) weren't aware of the tricks rules (He wanted to run his wolf like it was another fully intelligent character, I knew that wasn't right.)
I actually don't mind if a GM doesn't want psionics in their game because they 'don't like the flavour' When I played psions my GMs weren't completely familiar with the system but they knew I was at a point in my life* where I wouldn't break the rules to have fun at the expense of the game.** And if no psions (or Damascarrans, or Vanguards, or Inquisitors) I'll roll with it, so many voices in my head, so few PCs.
Psionics, like magi, inquisitors, witches, wordcasting etc. are different Not to be confused with "Psionics are Different." Any GM worth his salt will need to a) roughly understand the rules and b) have a player he can trust sit at the table with the new toy. In PFS, the 'most' I can do is ask/demand a copy of the spell/ability from the player.*** in a home game? I can use the word 'no' spoken gently and firmly.
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RE: Maenads
I hadn't thought of the hulk thing it makes for an interesting concept/contrast to the Maenads-who-act-like-Vulcans, I tie a lot of my psionics into Azlanti in "My Golarion."
Maenads
Elan
Half Giants
If they modified the existing magic system to allow one to cannibalize lower level slots to cast higher level spells, and the reverse, it would mirror the flexibility of the power point system while not forcing players to learn a new system.
It could be adapted to normal caster classes as well and I don't think it would make them entirely unbalanced as long as you could figure out a good ratio of substitution.
If they modified the existing magic system to allow one to cannibalize lower level slots to cast higher level spells, and the reverse, it would mirror the flexibility of the power point system while not forcing players to learn a new system.
It could be adapted to normal caster classes as well and I don't think it would make them entirely unbalanced as long as you could figure out a good ratio of substitution.
I've long since considered doing this. Sacrifice two lower-level spells to memorize/cast one spell from the next higher level. Can keep stacking them up in pairs through the levels as needed to reach what you want (2 1st-levels become a 2nd, stacked with another 2nd or another pair of 1sts become a 3rd, that kind of thing).
I've always allowed memorizing lower-level spells in higher-level slots at no cost.
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If they modified the existing magic system to allow one to cannibalize lower level slots to cast higher level spells, and the reverse, it would mirror the flexibility of the power point system while not forcing players to learn a new system.
That's kind of my point. The sorcerer IS a point system, with the only difference being he can't spend lower points on higher level spells.
I would love to see such a system Fleshgrinder. It would fix one of the big issues with slots.
We'd just need to do the math and figure out how to make a 20th level sorcerer cast as flexibly as a 20th level psion.
Orthos' suggestion of eating 2 lower levels to go 1 higher could work.
Or some system where it's a 1 for .75, round down, so three 1st level spells would equal one 2nd level spell, or a 3rd and a 5th would combine into a 6th, as would four 2nd level spells.
The 0.75 conversion method would be a little more complex but even more flexible than Orthos' suggestion. And 0.75 might not be the right number.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Spell slots
Arcana Evolved has a similar method.
IDHTBIFOM, but if I remember correctly it was you'd memorize spells in the morning and use slots, but you could 'underpower' or 'overpower' some spells by one level. So (for example) shield as a zero level spell might give an shield bonus of +2 for one round, a second level spell might up it to +6 for example. It was a mix of prepared and spont casting.
Edit: Fleshgrinder, don't forget the scaling issue. An energy ball from a 10th level psion does 7d6 unless he augments. A fireball from a 10th level sorcerer does 10d6 because of the free scaling.
Re: Spell slots
Arcana Evolved has a similar method.
IDHTBIFOM, but if I remember correctly it was you'd memorize spells in the morning and use slots, but you could 'underpower' or 'overpower' some spells by one level. So (for example) shield as a zero level spell might give an shield bonus of +2 for one round, a second level spell might up it to +6 for example. It was a mix of prepared and spont casting.
Edit: Fleshgrinder, don't forget the scaling issue. An energy ball from a 10th level psion does 7d6 unless he augments. A fireball from a 10th level sorcerer does 10d6 because of the free scaling.
Yep, we'd have to work that into the system somehow.
Either by limiting the casts per day or emulating the same idea where spells have to be memorized at the caster level you wish for them to be cast at (since that's effectively what the psionic system mirrors).
Even the old MP system from Unearthed Arcana basically did that where a fireball was a 3rd level spell for 3d6 unless you spent the extra MP to boost it up.
RE: Maenads
I hadn't thought of the hulk thing it makes for an interesting concept/contrast to the Maenads-who-act-like-Vulcans, I tie a lot of my psionics into Azlanti in "My Golarion."
Maenads
I had a similar idea, with the Meanads surviving on some of the islands on the north-west of Avistan where they settled in the aftermath of the devastation that befell Azlant. They generally live simple lives, though, rather than living on giant ship-cities. I could add that, perhaps, but on the Astral plane rather than the material.
Elan
I like this concept.
Half Giants
I have them as arising in the wake of the fall of Thassilon, when disparate groups of refugee humans and giants grouped together to survive. They occupy the mountains in north-west Avistan, and picked up psionic use off the Meanads and returning Elan.
I haven't decided with the Xephs yet. I considered that they could be living in Rahadoum, where their psionics are not offensive to the god-haters, or else in Vudra which is supposed to have a strong psionic base.
If they modified the existing magic system to allow one to cannibalize lower level slots to cast higher level spells, and the reverse, it would mirror the flexibility of the power point system while not forcing players to learn a new system.
It could be adapted to normal caster classes as well and I don't think it would make them entirely unbalanced as long as you could figure out a good ratio of substitution.
Actually there was a feat to do this in 3.5 in some obscure supplement.
Matt: take your time! (I just like to be sure technology works, so I usually double up on my "Hey! Listen!" when I send something.)
Flshgrinder: GAH! You changed avatars! It's taken me forever to realize you're that Fleshgrinder!
Also, yeah, the really tricky part is figuring out a balanced "system".
Part of my solution has always been two lower-level slots for one higher, and never to a spell-level higher than one third of your actual level (so it caps out at 6th level spells for 20th level play, though it increases with higher levels). But that's just me.
EDIT: So... I got ninja'd. Repeatedly. Good to know everything's normal! Carry on!
Also: as to the the obscure supplement, the only thing I can find similar is in Lost Empires of Faerun, called Arcane Manipulation. It allows a wizard to break up to three existing arcane spell-slots to create a specified number of lower-level slots, with the sum of the new slots being equal to the sum of the slots broken down. But the feat only goes down, not up. There was another in the FRCS (which isn't handy at this moment) which allowed sorcerers to prepare their spells (for more rapid metamagic purposes), but that's about all I know of that.
ALSO, also: Hah-hah! For once I said something more succinctly than someone else! Take that, Dabbler!
(Sorry, that so rarely happens. Usually I'm the one with the super-over-complicated stuff!) :D
EDIT 2: Daggumit! I didn't see Orthos' post! I'll go back to being a Jonny-come-lately. *sigh* :)
We'd just need to do the math and figure out how to make a 20th level sorcerer cast as flexibly as a 20th level psion.
Well if you work out the power-point equivelancy it runs out like this:
{(spell level x 2) - 1} x #spells for each given spell level.However, this gives the sorcerer 512 power points equivelant, so if you give him a system that's as flexible as a psion or wilder without reducing his number of spells he will be a LOT more powerful.
Orthos' suggestion of eating 2 lower levels to go 1 higher could work.
If we call a 1st level spell 1 point, then:
2nd level spell = 2 points (3 in psionics)3rd level spell = 4 points (5 in psionics)
4th level spell = 8 points (7 in psionics)
5th level spell = 16 points (9 in psionics)
etc.
Or some system where it's a 1 for .75, round down, so three 1st level spells would equal one 2nd level spell, or a 3rd and a 5th would combine into a 6th, as would four 2nd level spells.
The 0.75 conversion method would be a little more complex but even more flexible than Orthos' suggestion. And 0.75 might not be the right number.
You might be better off just giving them 'spell points' than getting this complex.
Hmmm... they might have more spell points than a psion but if you use the two for one conversion then they pay a lot more for high level spells. Does that balance efficiently enough? I am not a math person.
We'd just need to do the math and figure out how to make a 20th level sorcerer cast as flexibly as a 20th level psion.Well if you work out the power-point equivelancy it runs out like this:
{(spell level x 2) - 1} x #spells for each given spell level.However, this gives the sorcerer 512 power points equivelant, so if you give him a system that's as flexible as a psion or wilder without reducing his number of spells he will be a LOT more powerful.
Orthos' suggestion of eating 2 lower levels to go 1 higher could work.If we call a 1st level spell 1 point, then:
2nd level spell = 2 points (3 in psionics)
3rd level spell = 4 points (5 in psionics)
4th level spell = 8 points (7 in psionics)
5th level spell = 16 points (9 in psionics)
etc.
So the Sorc gets more "points" to work with, but his spells are more "expensive" after about halfway (4th level). I'm okay with that.
As one of the primary developers for Psionics Unleashed and Psionics Expanded, we've gone through some pretty heavy playtesting to find any weird loopholes in the rules, shut down what was perceived as overly flexible (energy powers now require you to expend psionic focus to change energy type, except for Kineticists) and with that said, I will acknowledge that we aren't omnipotent.
If you find something that is wrong, lacking, unbalanced or just WEIRD in our books, come one over to www.dreamscarredpress.com and put it up at our forum. We've issued regular erratas, from small misprints to rebalancing of powers, because we hold that balance dear to our hearts.
Many posters here have proven time and time again why we believe psionics "in general" for Pathfinder is balanced, and I bet some of them might be mighty tired of rehashing the same arguments.Perhaps we should compile a thread there with the math, the general issues that people tend to raise and then just link people to that?
That way, we can all focus on productive and interesting discussions, such as how to convert magic into a points-based system! If you feel you have an idea for psionics, don't hesitate to come on over to our forums and pitch your ideas and thoughts.
We include everyone who helps with playtesting in the finalized book with a personal thankyou - even the smallest notice makes a huge difference.
With that, take care!
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Co-owner Dreamscarred Press
Already did that, Andreas!
This thread here has a lot of the math and the arguments outlined, comparing the relative power and flexibility of spellcasters and manifesters.
Thank you Andreas. It is good to have reassurances that you aren't just reprinting old mistakes. I also appreciate that you would take time to post here over this issue. I don't often buy third party material but I will make an exception and check out your work. Is the first book Psionics Unleashed available through any stores or do I need to find it online?
Is the first book Psionics Unleashed available through any stores or do I need to find it online?
It's available on Amazon in paperback, or from Dreamscarred Press themselves, I have no idea about physical bookshops, I certainly haven't seen it over on this side of the pond.
I've not seen it either, but that doesn't mean it can't be easily ordered. Books-a-Million or Barnes & Noble generally do well in getting custom orders to customers in the bookshop. In fact, I'm going to see if I can order from my local one!