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Hi All - having switched over to Pathfinder as of this morning i'm wondering if there is a Psionics book out for the game.
Anyone know of one ?
Regards...
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There is no official Psionics book for Pathfinder, and the developers have stated that there are no current plans for one. However, Dreamscarred Press has released Psionics Unleashed (available in print and PDF) and Psionics Expanded (available in PDF, to be available in print shortly). Psionics Unleashed is a Pathfinder conversion of Expanded Psionics Handbook, while Psionics Expanded is the Advanced Player's Guide for Psionics.
There is no official Psionics book for Pathfinder, and the developers have stated that there are no current plans for one. However, Dreamscarred Press has released Psionics Unleashed (available in print and PDF) and Psionics Expanded (available in PDF, to be available in print shortly). Psionics Unleashed is a Pathfinder conversion of Expanded Psionics Handbook, while Psionics Expanded is the Advanced Player's Guide for Psionics.
Excellent I shall check them out. My son wants to convert his psionic character from 4ed over !
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Dreamscarred stuff is pretty much official. A paizo psionic base class would be a spellcaster more akin to a specialist Enchanter. They specifically don't want to negate Jeremy's work, and he is doing a fine job. Dreamscarred has a psionics heavy adventure path out even.
Excellent. Just added links to my previous post while you were posting.
Just make sure one very important rule is followed (don't know if you used Psionics in 3.5, and don't know the 4e system) - A manifester cannot spend more power points to manifest a power than his manifester level. That rule is crucial to avoiding the balance issues some people have had with Psionics, usually because it got overlooked.
This post by James Jacobs gives me hope that there will be an official Psionics book Soon(tm).
Nope.
Thing is, several of us here, me included, actually REALLY LIKE the idea of a new type of magic called psychic magic, mentalism, psionics, or whatever. That's why we put psionics into Golarion in the first place, giving them a home in Vudra and in certain themes in the Darklands.
Burying psionics isn't something I want to do.
They ARE something that I want us to do right, and that requires a lot of effort and planning ahead. On a scale of time involving years.
Good news there is we're several years into that plan already. No one outside of Paizo really knows how many years we want to take before we dive into the Psychic Magic pool though.
However, in another post, JJ also said that if/when Paizo releases a Psionic Book, it won't be based off a power point system (as Psionics Unleashed is).
I'm 99% certain that we'll alienate a bunch of existing psionics fans anyway, since the power point system is something I can almost guarantee we will NOT use for psychic magic if and when we go there.
My hope is that what we do with psychic magic will bring in enough new fans AND appease enough existing fans that we'll have a net gain... but it's tricky, and that trickiness has played into the reason why we've not done more with psychic magic yet.
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The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.
The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.
It makes me wonder if what they'll eventually come out with will be like what Green Ronin did for 3.5 with their Psychic Handbook - skills / feats / etc.
4E's psionic spell slots was not something I liked.
I rather like Psionics Transcended myself. I like how they connected psionics with the monk/ninja's ki mechanic, which is something I was thinking of doing myself. It still is a bit too much of a redo of the 3E psionics rules (I'd prefer something slightly different, again, utilizing the ki pool idea), but it comes closer to what I think psionics should be than does Psionics Unleashed for me.
Not that 3E psionics was bad- I quite liked how they redid it in the Expanded Psionics Handbook- but I'd like something a little different, and PT comes the closest I've seen.
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I rather like Psionics Transcended myself. I like how they connected psionics with the monk/ninja's ki mechanic, which is something I was thinking of doing myself. It still is a bit too much of a redo of the 3E psionics rules (I'd prefer something slightly different, again, utilizing the ki pool idea), but it comes closer to what I think psionics should be than does Psionics Unleashed for me.
Not that 3E psionics was bad- I quite liked how they redid it in the Expanded Psionics Handbook- but I'd like something a little different, and PT comes the closest I've seen.
It's a pretty interesting approach. While Dreamscarred took the 3.5 psionics and "pathfinderized" them, Psionics Transcended reworked psionics to make the classes more like spellcasters. It's a matter of taste, but PT will appeal to GMs who don't like the point system.
I don't like PT's psyker class. I never cared for the idea of the soulknife as a psionic character without any psionic powers. I don't know why they call it an alternative to the bard class, though.
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The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.
That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
I never did like monks as psionics. Different themes, that never matched up.
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It makes me wonder if what they'll eventually come out with will be like what Green Ronin did for 3.5 with their Psychic Handbook - skills / feats / etc.
Love that feat/skill system (which reminded me of the best parts of the GURPS psionics rules, separated into 'advantages' and skills), although the strain mechanic is capricious and painful, IMO.
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The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
I had a similar thought back in the day - I didn't see the reason for the "sci-fi version of magic" in a game with real magic, but the flavor and system both really won me over. Now, I find it forms a nice trinity with arcane and divine power sources (for want of a better term) that is pleasing on a mechanical as well as aesthetic level.
I had a similar thought back in the day - I didn't see the reason for the "sci-fi version of magic" in a game with real magic, but the flavor and system both really won me over. Now, I find it forms a nice trinity with arcane and divine power sources (for want of a better term) that is pleasing on a mechanical as well as aesthetic level.The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
Now me too, I see Arcane, Divine and Psionics as a trinity
I never did like monks as psionics. Different themes, that never matched up.
I think they do line up.
It's just a different kind of psionics, sort of like an Alchemist is just a unique type of arcane caster.
It's mind over body.
It also allows you to "de-East" the classes if you don't want the eastern themes in your game.
It's also nice to be able to counter monks and ninjas with anti-psionic fields, as they are a class that is sort of hard to disarm.
The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
Ditto. Much much prefer power points over Vancian casting. It's a constant source of frustration to me, as there's an association of "Wizard = Powerful, Wizard = Vancian caster, thus Vancian casting = powerful and good" that keeps many players from using other systems. If it weren't for that, I'd have replaced Wizards and Sorcs with Psions and Wilders long ago.
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I never did like monks as psionics. Different themes, that never matched up.I think they do line up.
It's just a different kind of psionics, sort of like an Alchemist is just a unique type of arcane caster.
It's mind over body.
It also allows you to "de-East" the classes if you don't want the eastern themes in your game.
It's also nice to be able to counter monks and ninjas with anti-psionic fields, as they are a class that is sort of hard to disarm.
I worte (somewhere) a discussion between a monk and a psychic warrior once. Basically they admitted that ki = psionics, but that the psion is a sprinter (burning power points in short 'bursts' to generate spectacular results) while the monk is a long distance runner (his ki/psionics is suffused into him so he's drawing from it constantly, to produce less spectaular but more sustainable results). Both thought their methods were the 'right' way of course.
I worte (somewhere) a discussion between a monk and a psychic warrior once. Basically they admitted that ki = psionics, but that the psion is a sprinter (burning power points in short 'bursts' to generate spectacular results) while the monk is a long distance runner (his ki/psionics is suffused into him so he's drawing from it constantly, to produce less spectaular but more sustainable results). Both thought their methods were the 'right' way of course.I never did like monks as psionics. Different themes, that never matched up.I think they do line up.
It's just a different kind of psionics, sort of like an Alchemist is just a unique type of arcane caster.
It's mind over body.
It also allows you to "de-East" the classes if you don't want the eastern themes in your game.
It's also nice to be able to counter monks and ninjas with anti-psionic fields, as they are a class that is sort of hard to disarm.
Yeah, I did it after I got the idea from 4th edition D&D, but then even after looking at a psychic warrior's power list and then comparing it to the Ki abilities of a ninja and monk, they lined up surprisingly well.
You could probably literally give them power points and make them a custom power list, stat out some of the ninja and monk tricks as powers and bam, they'd be a true psionic class with very little modification.
The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
The power point system has it's charm, but it is hard to balance and in part that is why I think players like it, they can break the rules of the game.
A few reasons why I consider psionic unleashed a bad match for PF :
- You can nova like crazy, more than any other class.
- all your spells are automatically silent and stilled and without material components.
The nova aspect promotes a 15 minute adventuring day and the psionic powers were on the same scale of full casters but the psion itself can function fine tossing about spell-like abilities in fullplate and shield.
I could see them functioning as a partial caster much like the magus if the nova aspect can somehow be adressed for which I do not really have solid suggestions to work within the powerpoint system.
Creative Director
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I see the trinity too, but then I'm pre-biased. :-)
If/when PAizo puts out Ultimate Psionic, I'll get it (for PFS if nothing else), but any home games will continue to use the psionics I know and love.
I'm 99.99934% sure that if we DO do a psychic magic book, it won't use the word "Ultiimate" in the title. "Ultimate" implies an end to a topic, after all, and I'd rather not imply that with our first book about psychic magic!
Does that mean there'll be no more Magic or Combat in Pathfinder books? :)
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The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
The power point system has it's charm, but it is hard to balance and in part that is why I think players like it, they can break the rules of the game.
A few reasons why I consider psionic unleashed a bad match for PF :
- You can nova like crazy, more than any other class.
- all your spells are automatically silent and stilled and without material components.
1) Metacap. Metacap metacap metacap.
2) And? Clerics don't have ASF either, nor do bards or magi, and even then it can be mitigated.3) Re: Nova. Untapped Potential 20th level psion can throw 17 powers fully augmented (before stat bumps/feats) and then they're exhausted. Sorcerers can throw 6 9th level powers, 6 8th level spells (topping out at 20 d6) and 8 7th level spells. (also topping out at 20 d6). and have all their lower level spell slots. This doesn't point out that a first level spell slot from a 10th level sorcerer does 5d4+5, but a one point power from a sorcerer (say, crystal shard) does 1d6, regardless of level. Also it's 34 spells known (before bloodline) vs 36 powers known (before specialization).
Any other myths you'd like busted?
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No myths at all.
-They CAN nova easier. Even psionic users have admitted as much.
-The issue with armor and such is that they combine the best features of wizard/sorcerer/cleric all in one class. Even down to having unfettered access to all fields of magic from blasting to healing.
-They have a much superior Power Point system instead of spell slots. Yes this is the elephant in the room. This is WHY psi lovers love psionics. It feels unfair to slot restricted users if they share the table with a power point system.
-The natural limits placed into spells are removed in psionics. A wizards mage armor gives +4 armor... never better. A psion can pump that up as high as his points and level will let him.
The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
The power point system has it's charm, but it is hard to balance and in part that is why I think players like it, they can break the rules of the game.
A few reasons why I consider psionic unleashed a bad match for PF :
- You can nova like crazy, more than any other class.
- all your spells are automatically silent and stilled and without material components.
1) Metacap. Metacap metacap metacap.
2) And? Clerics don't have ASF either, nor do bards or magi, and even then it can be mitigated.3) Re: Nova. Untapped Potential 20th level psion can throw 17 powers fully augmented (before stat bumps/feats) and then they're exhausted. Sorcerers can throw 6 9th level powers, 6 8th level spells (topping out at 20 d6) and 8 7th level spells. (also topping out at 20 d6). and have all their lower level spell slots. This doesn't point out that a first level spell slot from a 10th level sorcerer does 5d4+5, but a one point power from a sorcerer (say, crystal shard) does 1d6, regardless of level. Also it's 34 spells known (before bloodline) vs 36 powers known (before specialization).
Any other myths you'd like busted?
Also, the powers have manifestations that say "Hey something is up over here."
I never did like monks as psionics. Different themes, that never matched up.I think they do line up.
It's just a different kind of psionics, sort of like an Alchemist is just a unique type of arcane caster.
It's mind over body.
It also allows you to "de-East" the classes if you don't want the eastern themes in your game.
It's also nice to be able to counter monks and ninjas with anti-psionic fields, as they are a class that is sort of hard to disarm.
I can see your position but personally I don't think they do.
Psions= Mind over matter. Psychic Warrior= Mind over body. Monk= The harmony of body, mind, and spirit.
Also, monk and ninja supernatural abilities just as susceptible to anti-magic fields as any spell caster. So anti-psionic fields are not needed to counter monks or ninjas.
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Does that mean there'll be no more Magic or Combat in Pathfinder books? :)
Nope. But it does mean you're unlikely to see a book solely focused on Magic or Combat going forward.
Of course, there ARE a few folks here at Paizo who can outvote me on that regard. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
It's cosmo, right?
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No myths at all.
-They CAN nova easier. Even psionic users have admitted as much.
It takes them less rounds to burn through their power points than a caster can burn through his spells, yes, but that's not necessarily a good thing. A caster burning through his spells gets automatic enhancement of said spells. If a sorcerer had to use a 5th level spell slot to cast a 9-10d6 fireball, you'd have parity with a psionic throwing an energy ball, but they don't.
A specialist wizard or a sorcerer both have more 'spell points' when they are calculated and combined than a psionic has power points by a tidy margin. To get the full effect of a power, a psionic often has to augment a power with extra power points, so that '9th level power' the psionic is throwing out could well be a 1st level power given full augmentation.
In short, a psionic is no more a nova than a caster most of the time. Like a sorcerer they can spam their most powerful powers, but when their power points run out, they are done, while a sorcerer or wizard will still have many spells left.
-The issue with armor and such is that they combine the best features of wizard/sorcerer/cleric all in one class. Even down to having unfettered access to all fields of magic from blasting to healing.
Two points here:
1) Armour just isn't an issue for wizards. With all the feats for arcane armour proficiency, if armour was such a major advantage all wizards could be and would be wearing it, and they aren't. There are better ways of protecting themselves, and the same goes for psions; most do not bother with armour. Wilders and psychic warriors are like clerics and magi, their other constraints and requirements ensure that they are not overpowered by being able to wear armour and having proficiency with it.2) There are no psionic equivalents to the illusion and necromantic fields, and psionic healing is hard to come by (unless you have psionics expanded, but that's another story and requires a specialist class). An egoist can act as a healer, but it's inefficient and costly, and he has better things to do. There is a lot that magic can do that psionics cannot, and also things that magic can do better than psionics, while the only thing that psionics does better than magic are the mind-manipulation (a telepath is barely ahead of an enchanter in this, but not by much) and blasting, where psionics has a clear advantage in what is widely agreed to be the least effective thing any caster can do.
-They have a much superior Power Point system instead of spell slots. Yes this is the elephant in the room. This is WHY psi lovers love psionics. It feels unfair to slot restricted users if they share the table with a power point system.
Yes, they have a better resource management system, and as I have noted they also have less resources and have to use those resources more flagrantly for the best effects. A specialist wizard or sorcerer has 25% more spell-levels they can cast than a psionic can manifest, and the psionic has to pay extra to get full effects from many powers, giving the caster around 50% extra resources in real terms.
Running both in the same game may look impressive at first as the psionic character pulls out and shows off all his or her special tricks that the spell-caster cannot do, but as time wears on the spell caster has more staying power and it shows.
-The natural limits placed into spells are removed in psionics. A wizards mage armor gives +4 armor... never better. A psion can pump that up as high as his points and level will let him.
Yep, and he pays for it. Mage armour is only ever a 1st level spell. Inertial armour can scale up - as long as the psionic is willing to pay more power points for it, making it the equivelant of a 2nd level spell for +5 AC, a 3rd level spell for +6 AC, etc. Would a spell caster bother with taking the extra spells and expending the resources for this return? No, implying that while it is an option, in the grand scheme of things it really isn't worth it.
This does give more flexibility for a given number of powers to a psionic, but then they also get less powers than a sorcerer of the same level has spells, so it only really evens up the difference rather than actually being an advantage. The specialist wizard gets more varied spells per day than the psion, and he gets to swap them out to suit his need, an advantage in versatility that the psion without psychic reformation cannot come close to matching despite his more versatile powers.
I've been in games with both casters and psionics running, and sadly all of your claims don't bear out either in theory or in practice.
It's Clinton Boomer.
1) Armour just isn't an issue for wizards. With all the feats for arcane armour proficiency, if armour was such a major advantage all wizards could be and would be wearing it, and they aren't. There are better ways of protecting themselves, and the same goes for psions; most do not bother with armour. Wilders and psychic warriors are like clerics and magi, their other constraints and requirements ensure that they are not overpowered by being able to wear armour and having proficiency with it.
That's a pretty weak argument, mate. "Through significant expenditure of feats, wizards can wear armor, but they don't." doesn't say anything about armor. It's all about the feats. +1 twilight mithral shirts were very popular in 3.5, and all the +1 / 0 ASF% armors of PF are recommended as well.
There's also the silliness of the "he spent a resource, it's balanced!" argument, but that's another topic entirely.
tbh, I'm don't think there's a single person who is qualified to give a fair assessment of psionics.
Haters gonna hate.
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No myths at all.
-They CAN nova easier. Even psionic users have admitted as much.
-The issue with armor and such is that they combine the best features of wizard/sorcerer/cleric all in one class. Even down to having unfettered access to all fields of magic from blasting to healing.
-They have a much superior Power Point system instead of spell slots. Yes this is the elephant in the room. This is WHY psi lovers love psionics. It feels unfair to slot restricted users if they share the table with a power point system.
-The natural limits placed into spells are removed in psionics. A wizards mage armor gives +4 armor... never better. A psion can pump that up as high as his points and level will let him.
Wow, I am completely won over by your countering my facts with "Some people said so." I'm awed. As to the false "Arguing from Authority" go look at the Mind's Eye archive, look at the list of writers/playtesters. Go on, I'll wait.
Hint: Anyone who's argument is 'Some guys' is going to lose the authority argument against me when it comes to psionics. (Now, Jerermy Smith or the rest of the Dreamscarred bunch, I'll lose the authority argument.)
-Psions can cast in armor. So can clerics, so can wizards. Psions don't get armor feats for free.
- "The natural augmentation placed into powers are removed in magic. A psion's 1 point crystal shard does 1d6 points of damage. Never better. A wizard's magic missile scales with his level."
So I've just proved by your standard that arcane magic is superior to XPH/UP psionics.
Anything else you'd like me to shred?
That's a pretty weak argument, mate. "Through significant expenditure of feats, wizards can wear armor, but they don't." doesn't say anything about armor. It's all about the feats. +1 twilight mithral shirts were very popular in 3.5, and all the +1 / 0 ASF% armors of PF are recommended as well.
1) Armour just isn't an issue for wizards. With all the feats for arcane armour proficiency, if armour was such a major advantage all wizards could be and would be wearing it, and they aren't. There are better ways of protecting themselves, and the same goes for psions; most do not bother with armour. Wilders and psychic warriors are like clerics and magi, their other constraints and requirements ensure that they are not overpowered by being able to wear armour and having proficiency with it.
At low level, yes. For the psion to wear armour he too has to expend feats or use the same armour the wizard is wearing if he does not wish to cripple his skills. I suppose it is possible for a psion not relying on rays or any powers that rely on an attack to wear plate armour, provided he doesn't mind the reduced movement and appalling skills, but when two powers can give as much if not more protection without the drawbacks for two power points, I can't see it happening often - same way the wizard can get the same protection for two first-level spells, and way better protection than the psion can get with one spell the psion cannot match: mirror image.
Clerics have armour proficiency and no arcane spell failure chance, but strangely aren't getting mentioned. Why? Because the nature of the cleric spell-list is not quite the same as the sorcerer/wizard. The psion powers list is not quite the same either, but this strangely isn;t getting mentioned save in some erroneous statements above.
There's also the silliness of the "he spent a resource, it's balanced!" argument, but that's another topic entirely.
Cheapy, the whole balancing of classes is based around resources, their expenditure and their effectiveness. We are talking about the resources of spell-casters vs psionics, how they spend them and what they can do with them. It's not just a matter of spending a resource, it's a question of was it worth the price. In the case of mage armour vs inertial armour is +1 AC worth having to expend an extra spell-level's worth of resources?
I take your point about bias, but really without comparing the mechanics it's just opinions. Numbers don't lie, although I agree they can be made to conceal and deceive. In this case, though, I can and have demonstrated here that the psionic classes are at no advantage over the spell-casting ones in terms of resources.
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One more on 'Nova myths'
Quicken Spell vs Quicken Power.
Level 20 Psion.
round 2 9th level power 20 PP
round 3 9th level power 20 PP
round 4 9th level power 20 PP
round 5 9th level power 20 PP
round 6 9th level power 20 PP
round 7 9th level power 20 PP
round 8 9th level power 20 PP
round 9 9th level power 20 PP
round 10 9th level power 20 PP
round 11 9th level power 20 PP
round 12 9th level power 20 PP
round 13 9th level power 20 PP
round 14 9th level power 20 PP
round 15 9th level power 20 PP
round 16 9th level power 20 PP
339 PP, 4 PP left
Level 20 Sorcerer
round 2 quicken spell 2nd level, 9th level spell
round 3 quicken spell 2nd level, 9th level spell
round 4 quicken spell 2nd level, 9th level spell
round 5 quicken spell 2nd level, 9th level spell
round 6 quicken spell 2nd level, 9th level spell
round 7 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 8 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 9 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 10 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 11 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 12 quicken spell 1st level, 8th level spell
round 13 7th level spell
round 14 7th level spell
round 15 7th level spell
round 16 7th level spell
Sorcerer has put out more spells 'downrange' in the same time, has 2 7th level spells, and all his 1-4th level spells left.
Oh yes, the psion is much better at novaing.
One more on 'Nova myths'
Quicken Spell vs Quicken Power.
Level 20 Psion.
** spoiler omitted **
339 PP, 4 PP leftLevel 20 Sorcerer
** spoiler omitted **
Sorcerer has put out more spells 'downrange' in the same time, has 2 7th level spells, and all his 1-4th level spells left.Oh yes, the psion is much better at novaing.
You miss the point completely, they might be abit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.
I understand it :
- vancian magic sucks, not just thematically, it is also inconvenient
- spells without components is cool, and handy besides, without paying much higher spell slots, few people can imprison or restrain a psion, gag them, tie them up and take away their possessions you dont care, and you can put on fullplate if you want.
- metamagic in general sucks, using feats for it sucks more
- no delayed access but still playing with spontaneous magic
- versatility in use that no spellcasting class can match
- relatively easy bookkeeping
- no outwards signs you are a caster
* these are all cool, but besides being cool they are also just plain better than traditional casters, it is hard to argue that base casters are underpowered. The fact that you can expend your points easily by going nuts using powers does not fix it. It seems they got alot of spare feats to spend on cooler stuff too..
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Where exactly do they get extra spare feats? They still need feats for Metapsionics, Combat Casting, Spell Penetration(etc). Yes, it's spontaneous without a delay, but that delay is why most people I've played with REFUSE to play sorcerers. You can bring up the armor thing as often as you want, it doesn't change the fact that divine casters have been doing it for ever.
A psion is only as versatile as its powers known, just as a sorcerer is. A wizard gets more bang for his buck out of the same resources (auto-scaling spells), and is the single most versatile caster in a game. A powers/spells known list means you are by definition less versatile than any prepared caster capable of modifying its spells daily.
And has been pointed out, there are displays every time you manifest that point out you're a caster. If these are being ignored, that's the DM's fault. You are not stealth casting.
And for the record, Vancian magic is actually more convenient. I don't like it, but not having to figure out just how much power I want to throw into something is ridiculously damned convenient. I'm a lot less likely to overspend and screw myself over with my auto-scaling spells than I am with the powers that I have to effectively pay for a higher level power to use, when I may end up want those points later.
Of course, this space is probably wasted, as you just COMPLETELY ignored that spot-on math. Perhaps next time I post I'll break down the equivalent power points spent and left over, and maybe that will help you understand.
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You miss the point completely, they might be abit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.
The way a caster can blow their most powerful spells, the difference being that the caster then has a lot of less powerful spells left, and the psionic often doesn't have much in the way of power points left.
I understand it :
- vancian magic sucks, not just thematically, it is also inconvenient
Vancian casting is powerful, but has limitations that are not extant in many traditional fantasy settings. All the same, I don't think you can say that 'Vancian casting sucks' when the casters are often the most powerful characters in D&D.
- spells without components is cool, and handy besides, without paying much higher spell slots, few people can imprison or restrain a psion, gag them, tie them up and take away their possessions you dont care, and you can put on fullplate if you want.
I have rarely seen any player character restrained or imprisoned, and the easiest way of preventing ANY casting or manifesting class from functioning is to not let them rest. As for the full plate, see above. Eschew Materials is a way of avoiding simple material components, and sorcerers get it for free.
- metamagic in general sucks, using feats for it sucks more
Good job you have metamagic rods then. However bad you think it is, metapsionics are worse. Say at 10th level you want to throw an Empowered fireball. That takes up a 5th level spell-slot, which is harsh. Now say a psionic wants to throw an Empowered energy bolt, he has to expend 10 power points, more than the caster's resources, as well as his psionic focus (which means he has to spend a round doing nothing to regain it before he can throw another one) and to top it off, his attack only does 8d6 base damage against the caster's 10d6.
Ohm and energy ball is the equivelant of fireball, and is a 4th level power restricted to kineticists, not a 3rd.
- no delayed access but still playing with spontaneous magic
Is it? The psion has accelerated access compared to the sorcerer, yes, but he's meant to be comparable to the wizard. Now look at the number of powers...36 powers at level 20 against a specialist wizard's 52 spells or the sorcerer's 56 spells. Also, many powers that are more effective are delayed by a levl (see energy ball above) by being higher level.
- versatility in use that no spellcasting class can match
No, the prepared casters do not match their versitility, they far surpass it by changing their spell lists daily. The sorcerer can match the versatility of the psion from their number of spells - 56 spells vs the psion's 36 powers. Some powers may be more versatile than the equivelant spells, but this is only evening the scales somewhat. A sorcerer can have 56 completely unrelated spells, a psion has powers that run along a theme. Overall, they largely match one another.
- relatively easy bookkeeping
You mean tracking power points rather than crossing off spells on a sheet? Hardly rocket science in either case.
- no outwards signs you are a caster
Casters do not have obvious outward signs they are a caster until they cast, unless they want to hang a neon sign around their necks. The fact that psionics have 'displays' that make it obvious what is going on most of the time kind of negates this argument. It's obvious when a caster casts, it's obvious when a manifester manifests. The only exceptions are some of the purely mental powers, and these are obvious to the recipient only - but then a caster can take feats to cast inobviously with any spell.
* these are all cool, but besides being cool they are also just plain better than traditional casters, it is hard to argue that base casters are underpowered. The fact that you can expend your points easily by going nuts using powers does not fix it. It seems they got alot of spare feats to spend on cooler stuff too..
You headed this with 'I understand' and sadly like many that criticise the psionics rules you don't seem very familiar with them. Psionics are not better than traditional casters, although they are different. There are things casters can do better than manifesters, and vice verse, but in most things magic is actually the winner.
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Also, the powers have manifestations that say "Hey something is up over here."
A display takes a mere DC (15 + power level) concentration check to suppress.
So, a ninth-level psion wants to use a 5th level power without any display. He accordingly totals up his +9 from level, +6 from ability score (starting 15 allocated, +2 racial bonus, +2 from level stat bumps, +4 from appropriate item = 23), and +4 from taking the Concentration feat, and rolls 1d20+19 versus a DC of 20. Hey, he succeeds on a 1 or higher, and can't roll lower than a 1.
So, yeah. Silent and still equivalent, every single time, at no cost in metamagic rods or casting time or spell power or feats — except one feat any caster benefits from anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You miss the point completely, they might be abit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.Show, don't tell. Matthew just broke it down for you at 20th level.
It's ok TOZ, the 'psionics are broken' people never can back that up.
As to the 'still/silent' how often does that come up? About as often as a psion has to deal with cereberal parasites.
So, a ninth-level psion wants to use a 5th level power without any display. He accordingly totals up his +9 from level, +6 from ability score (starting 15 allocated, +2 racial bonus, +2 from level stat bumps, +4 from appropriate item = 23), and +4 from taking the Concentration feat, and rolls 1d20+19 versus a DC of 20. Hey, he succeeds on a 1 or higher, and can't roll lower than a 1.
The +4 only counts if you are manifesting defensively, this is not that. Further more it's not likely to be tried in combat because it doesn't really matter in combat.
So, yeah. Silent and still equivalent, every single time, at no cost in metamagic rods or casting time or spell power or feats — except one feat any caster benefits from anyway.
Makes up for the other metapsionics sucking so badly, then - see example above.
The power point system has it's charm, but it is hard to balance and in part that is why I think players like it, they can break the rules of the game.
A few reasons why I consider psionic unleashed a bad match for PF :
- You can nova like crazy, more than any other class.
I believe the nova issue has been demystified above
Let's clarify something else
- all your spells are automatically silent and stilled and without material components.
This is a characteristic of Psionics not the power point system. the power point system imply two things:
1) you use points instead of slots
2) you can augment you powers/spell expending points to get a better effects
The nova aspect promotes a 15 minute adventuring day and the psionic powers were on the same scale of full casters but the psion itself can function fine tossing about spell-like abilities in fullplate and shield.
The same as above, nothing to do with power point system.
I could see them functioning as a partial caster much like the magus if the nova aspect can somehow be adressed for which I do not really have solid suggestions to work within the powerpoint system.
I personally have no problem about nova, actually I think is better that way, you learn to not do it because then you can't do nothing instead to be imposed by the system itself.
The power point system is much more than just Psionics. I maintain my argument that a point system is more versatile and reflects better the way in which classes would act, just see the Arcane pool of Magus, Grit points Gunslinger even Ki pool of Monk (this one could be better, cover more abilities instead of 1/day) as opposed to Barbarian, Druid, Paladin and other classes.
1) Armour just isn't an issue for wizards. With all the feats for arcane armour proficiency, if armour was such a major advantage all wizards could be and would be wearing it, and they aren't. There are better ways of protecting themselves, and the same goes for psions; most do not bother with armour. Wilders and psychic warriors are like clerics and magi, their other constraints and requirements ensure that they are not overpowered by being able to wear armour and having proficiency with it.
That's a pretty weak argument, mate. "Through significant expenditure of feats, wizards can wear armor, but they don't." doesn't say anything about armor. It's all about the feats. +1 twilight mithral shirts were very popular in 3.5, and all the +1 / 0 ASF% armors of PF are recommended as well.
Actually, though I'm in favor of psionics, the thing about armor isn't really a powerful argument here, but that's only because it's not really well defined.
The thing is, heavier armor isn't really better... sometimes. If we're going to look at spellcasters, the thing about them is that they tend to a) have super-high casting stat, b) have moderately high DEX, c) have moderate CON d) have moderate other things.
Wearing heavier armor allows for a reduction in DEX as an important stat, because they're getting armor. But here's the thing. Unless you're specialization is "CONJURATION'S MY PROHIBITED SCHOOL", Mage Armor's gonna cover you. It lasts for an hour per level, it gives you a +4 bonus to your AC (which is about the max you'd get with armor anyway), and it has an inherent lack of armor check penalty. True, it doesn't give you nifty armor enhancements, but that's what Bracers of Armor are for. In that regard, Intertial Armor holds about the same utility at lower levels.
Now, you could argue that by 3rd level, sure, a manifester could have +5 armor bonus, but he's going to be expending a 2nd level spell-slot equivalent to do so, and he's got less spell-slot equivalents than a caster of his level.
Let's compare the two classes.
See, ignoring primary ability score (because for both classes, they'll be optimized to the same level, presuming the same player-style in general), the psion will have 11 power points and three at-will abilities (and your damaging options are limited and two of which don't have their full effect without paying), while the wizard has two first level spell slots, one second level spell slot, and four at-will abilities. What this means is that the wizard has more at-will options, more versatile at-will options, and never has to pay for them, though he's got less power-point equivalents (five, as opposed to eleven). A wizard has just as many 1st level options, but may well have more (with scribe scroll). A psion has to pay to allow his at-will options to be at full power. Further, the psion has to maintain psionic focus in order to use his at-will abilities at all, and if he has any feats that mesh with his manifesting powers, he'll have to expend psionic focus on that as well - meaning that he won't have as much access to his at-will powers.
Still, having 11 power points is... pretty great! It means that, in general, you manage to out-last a wizard (allowing for longer adventuring days in that regard). However! There are two problems here.
First, the wizard is getting all his increases "for free". Check out the psion power list, and the wizard spell list. The psion list has an awful lot of powers with "A" on them. That means that they're "augmentable" - in other words, the psion can spend more to get more, so to speak. The problem is, many of those "A" powers require using the augment option to maintain relevance.
Let's look at two completely random powers (chosen by two rolls of d20!), and compare them to equivalent spells, if any.
Broker: it grants you a +2 to one diplomacy roll. This only effects you, and is a psychometabolism power, and egoists - the ones who specialize in psychometabolism - don't get diplomacy as a trained skill. That +2 will never get better unless you spend more on it. Sure, a seer or telepath (the psions who have diplomacy as a class skill) could take that power, but it diverts resources from the school that they're best with and have focused on improving, and one of them can get Charm* anyway (we'll get to that one in a minute). But let's look at augmenting it. Augmenting grants a +1 bonus for every two additional power points you spend. So if I expend 3 power points (the equivalent of a 2nd level spell), you get a grand total of a +3 bonus. Once. Yay? Or a 3rd level spell equivalent (5 power points) would grant a +4 bonus on one check. 4th level spell equivalent (7 power points) grants a +5. On one check. That fact about one check only is important. Very few spells work that way, at all, and those that do generally do something other than a minor bonus that can more-than-easily be gotten by way of items for a more-than-once check.
But let's compare a similar wizard spell. After checking for a bit, I discovered the first level spell Cultural Adaptation, which gives a +2 bonus on diplomacy checks... for 10 minutes per level. That's all checks, not just one. But, perhaps that's unfair (even though they're both mechanically giving the same thing at a given price) because psions can augment theirs to increase their bonus.
After a little more searching, I found something with a similar mechanic, though a different bonus: Anticipate Peril. This spell grants you a +1 bonus to your initiative. Per caster level.
But, you know, that doesn't have to do with social interaction, so let's look at another social interaction effect of that level: Charm Person. Which makes most diplomacy rolls pointless (to clarify: this spell does not create a helpful attitude, which diplomacy can get, but it does create a friendly one, which really isn't a big DC at all. A random dice roll will, for most creatures, get you what you want most of the time with diplomacy anyway, once the creature in question is friendly (as most creatures don't have a large charisma bonus, and those that do tend not to be affected by charm anyway).
* NOTE: curiously, I didn't find the Charm power after a cursory search, though obviously I linked the basic spell. There may or may not be some equivalent power, though I know for a fact the 3.5 one got Charm, which was similar to the spell(s). If the PF one does not have charm, that just makes them straight forwardly weaker, compared to spellcasters.
But let's compare that to the widely-accepted-to-be-terrible 1st level spell, Burning Hands. By third level, a wizard's burning hands spell deals 3d4 damage as a first level spell. That's not a lot, but compared to Crystal Shard, that's really nice - at their minimum Burning Hands deals triple Crystal Shard's, and at maximum it still deals double. If we want to find something a bit more equivalent, however, Ear-Piercing Scream, on the other hand, is going to deal 2d6 damage with a 1st level spell (equivalent 1 power point), and it causes the target to be dazed without a fortitude save. But psions will have to spend 2 power points (the equivalent of a first level spell and one half more) to keep up, and it doesn't daze.
I mean, I know from experience, that Crystal Shard is a pretty great power (that touch attack is pretty swell), but it's costing the psion much more to keep up with the same bonuses due to caster level (except for duration) that a wizard gets for free.
The point is, they're going to pay more to deal equivalent stuff. Oh! But...
There's also the silliness of the "he spent a resource, it's balanced!" argument, but that's another topic entirely.
... is not really silly at all. That's like saying that it doesn't matter that the wizard has to spend feats to get armor and weapon proficiency, he should melee as well as, say, a bard. Bards are automatically better at melee than wizards. There's some tricks that wizards can pull (from limited resources) to deal more melee damage than bards can (such as shocking grasp), but it's the spending of the limited resources that acts as the source of balance between those classes at all.
...
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I just got ninja'd by two people (one of 'em twice!), both of which are more eloquent than I, so I'm going to stop now. But I'm still posting this thing, dang-it!
(I blame a baby! And cooking dinner! And everything!)
EDIT: I got ninja'd more by adding that I got ninja'd. Dang it, guys, I want to get in a good word, too! (Actually, please do carry on. I'm busy here.)
EDIT 2: to fix a link
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(I blame a baby! And cooking dinner! And everything!)
Just thought I'd say I find those first two more important than an internet debate. Since the last one would involve said debate, I feel it kinda negates itself.
Next on the list of "Psionics are broken[/rageface]" the Soulknife!