I noticed that most of the books from Paizo are published in China. While I have no doubt that this is cost-effective, I would like to know if Paizo has taken steps to verify the condition of the workers manufacturing their products. Anyone has any info on this????
Honestly this a very slippery slope many people who try to Politicize this go down.
Honestly this a very slippery slope many people who try to Politicize this go down.
Well, this has nothing to do with politics. I was just wondering, that's it. What do you mean, they "go down"?
short answer:
If they find a US publisher even remotely in the same cost ball park as the ones in china they might consider it- but its *extremely* more cost effective to go over seas at the moment.
-S
Some older threads on the topic of printing in China:
As soon as I saw this thread title, I remembered having asked some time ago - five years? I´m getting really old really fast these days...
EDIT: At some point, Vic stated that the printer was ISO something certified, and that was good enough for me.
Thank you guys for the info! I am a HUGE fan of Pathfinder. I just wanted to make sure that the latest AP I am reading and enjoying is not being manufactured by a 12 years old child working for 5 dollars a month. If that was the case, how could I be ok with my conscience knowing that somebody had to suffer to provide me leisure time?
OK here is the deal. Paizo is a business. A business is trying to make a profit. By said business making a profit, they pay taxes and employ people.
Paizo is also a small company, so they are not making say what Wal Mart makes.
It does not matter who prints, if I was the cheapest printer, and printing them in my back yard, and got a quality product out, and on time and was breaking no laws, Paizo has the choice to print with me.
So, Paizo goes out and prints American which increases the cost say the book 20%, 30%. So instead of a reasonably $50 for the book, it is now $65, $70, etc. How much is sale do they lose? How many employees can they not keep cause of cost of the book.
Yes it is shame many countries don't have the labor protections that we do in the US.
What is the Moralistic thing to do? Morals don't keep your bottom line cost effective.
AS for your leisure time, what about your computer? Your cell phone, your clothes, your sports.
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OK here is the deal. Paizo is a business. A business is trying to make a profit. By said business making a profit, they pay taxes and employ people.
Paizo is also a small company, so they are not making say what Wal Mart makes.
It does not matter who prints, if I was the cheapest printer, and printing them in my back yard, and got a quality product out, and on time and was breaking no laws, Paizo has the choice to print with me.
So, Paizo goes out and prints American which increases the cost say the book 20%, 30%. So instead of a reasonably $50 for the book, it is now $65, $70, etc. How much is sale do they lose? How many employees can they not keep cause of cost of the book.
Yes it is shame many countries don't have the labor protections that we do in the US.
What is the Moralistic thing to do? Morals don't keep your bottom line cost effective.
AS for your leisure time, what about your computer? Your cell phone, your clothes, your sports.
I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe. And I don't agree with your statement, as nothing in this world justifies crushing other people. No cost effectivness, no profit margin, nothing. And yes, I know it is legal for Paizo to print in China. And I trust Paizo, I am sure they did their researches and picked up chinese printer that doesn't exploit people.
As for your idea of market ("as long as it is legal, I can do it") let me remind you that 100 years ago slavery was legal. That did not make it more moral than than now. Again, I am not politicizing it. I just happened to read where they print it on brought the issue here. And if "I go down", as you wrote earlier, well, I can always get up.
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As for your idea of market ("as long as it is legal, I can do it") let me remind you that 100 years ago slavery was legal. That did not make it more moral than than now. Again, I am not politicizing it. I just happened to read where they print it on brought the issue here. And if "I go down", as you wrote earlier, well, I can always get up.
Um ... almost 150 years ago ... I'm pretty sure slavery was illegal by 1912 ... at least in the US, earlier for most (if not all) of Europe ... ;)
But the real bottom line is a company can and should do its due diligence and then go with the supplier that best fits their needs. In the case of Paizo, I am sure their due diligence included far more than just the price point.
As far as the "going down" comment, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the thread going down in flames ...
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There is also the fact that you can't assume western values and expectations to countries where workers make literally dollars a day. It has been noted that when western do-gooders swoop in and pressure developing countries into banning child labor, those kids don't just start going to school. In many cases, those kids were a source of income that the family needs, so if they can't get that money from a legitimate job, they are forced to resort to other methods.
So yeah, child labor sucks, but certainly not as bad as the most likely alternative. And in the end, the end of child exploitation will not come from banning it, it will come from the countries in question developing to a point where an educated workforce is more valuable than child laborers.
I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe.
Condescending to people that disagree with you? That is so European.
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Only thing worse than children in a sweat-shop... unemployed children.
Haha only serious. This isn't one of those simple topics that's black and white. Sure, child-abuse is a Bad Thing, but it's just not that straightforward. Exploited laborers of any age may be better off being exploited than if they weren't. Also, as wealth pours into nations such as China, by definition the standard of living increases overall. It's a slow and difficult process but the whole world is experiencing higher prosperity and ethical enlightenment.
All I'm really trying to say is that while IF the Paizo books were being printed by foreign slave-laborers, it might still be better than if they weren't.
So... awkward topic that has no RIGHT answer. It's worthwhile to think about it, but really, there's not much to be gained by discussing.
/me is neither American nor European.
Chief Technical Officer
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short answer:
If they find a US publisher even remotely in the same cost ball park as the ones in china they might consider it- but its *extremely* more cost effective to go over seas at the moment.
-S
We do actually print our card products and our Pathfinder Tales novels in the US, as there are domestic printers that offer great prices for cards and for standard paperbacks.
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OK here is the deal. Paizo is a business. A business is trying to make a profit. By said business making a profit, they pay taxes and employ people.
Paizo is also a small company, so they are not making say what Wal Mart makes.
It does not matter who prints, if I was the cheapest printer, and printing them in my back yard, and got a quality product out, and on time and was breaking no laws, Paizo has the choice to print with me.
So, Paizo goes out and prints American which increases the cost say the book 20%, 30%. So instead of a reasonably $50 for the book, it is now $65, $70, etc. How much is sale do they lose? How many employees can they not keep cause of cost of the book.
Yes it is shame many countries don't have the labor protections that we do in the US.
What is the Moralistic thing to do? Morals don't keep your bottom line cost effective.
AS for your leisure time, what about your computer? Your cell phone, your clothes, your sports.
I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe. And I don't agree with your statement, as nothing in this world justifies crushing other people. No cost effectivness, no profit margin, nothing. And yes, I know it is legal for Paizo to print in China. And I trust Paizo, I am sure they did their researches and picked up chinese printer that doesn't exploit people.
As for your idea of market ("as long as it is legal, I can do it") let me remind you that 100 years ago slavery was legal. That did not make it more moral than than now. Again, I am not politicizing it. I just happened to read where they print it on brought the issue here. And if "I go down", as you wrote earlier, well, I can always get up.
I disagree with you, I've always said it was better to print in the USA and pay more, than using cheap labor and very questionable production in china.
Chinese people need jobs too.
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If printed in America, at the higher costs, it would employ Americans who would spend that money on other products here in America and the money would,make its way back to the industries Paizo consumers are in. When we outsource like this it hurts the economy as a whole.
Good luck getting protectionist policies through our corporate owned government though.
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If printed in America, at the higher costs, it would employ Americans who would spend that money on other products here in America and the money would,make its way back to the industries Paizo consumers are in. When we outsource like this it hurts the economy as a whole.
That's assuming a significant consumer base for the product. And I'm sorry to break this to you, but even as the #1 bestselling RPG, the consumer base for Pathfinder is NOT a significant percentage of the population.
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If printed in America, at the higher costs, it would employ Americans who would spend that money on other products here in America and the money would,make its way back to the industries Paizo consumers are in. When we outsource like this it hurts the economy as a whole.That's assuming a significant consumer base for the product. And I'm sorry to break this to you, but even as the #1 bestselling RPG, the consumer base for Pathfinder is NOT a significant percentage of the population.
I didn't say Paizo was the cause of the problem, but part of it. It would also be suicide for one company, especially one as small as Paizo to be the one "taking a stand". We need high tariffs on imported items to even the playing field. Lowering the payroll tax would also help significantly.
As china's middle class develops you're going to rue a tariff war. Better off focussing on doing what you do well, in my opinion, rather than trying to do everything.
Chinese people need jobs too.
Arguably far, far more so than people living in developed nations.
I think that protectionism hurts all business in the long run. It also leads to stagnation in research and design. Same is true for subsidizing business - it hinders progress and can distort competition greatly. (example: European sugar-beet root farmers get heavily subsidized by the EU. Effect: sugar cane farmers from developing countries can´t compete because they are too expensive in comparison. So they go out of business, even if their product is as good and would be cheaper in a regular market. This hinders these countries development and even makes them dependant on help.) Protectionist tariffs are another form of subsidy IMO.
I think that protectionism hurts all business in the long run. It also leads to stagnation in research and design. Same is true for subsidizing business - it hinders progress and can distort competition greatly. (example: European sugar-beet root farmers get heavily subsidized by the EU. Effect: sugar cane farmers from developing countries can´t compete because they are too expensive in comparison. So they go out of business, even if their product is as good and would be cheaper in a regular market. This hinders these countries development and even makes them dependant on help.) Protectionist tariffs are another form of subsidy IMO.
European consumers also end up paying more for the protected products as well as for those things they're actually suited to producing.
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If printed in America, at the higher costs, it would employ Americans who would spend that money on other products here in America and the money would,make its way back to the industries Paizo consumers are in. When we outsource like this it hurts the economy as a whole.
Good luck getting protectionist policies through our corporate owned government though.
What about the consumers in other countries that also buy these products? Don't forget that they see an increase in costs often because the item is shipped there. So they could be priced out of purchasing if they had to deal with an increased base cost.
I think that protectionism hurts all business in the long run. It also leads to stagnation in research and design. Same is true for subsidizing business - it hinders progress and can distort competition greatly. (example: European sugar-beet root farmers get heavily subsidized by the EU. Effect: sugar cane farmers from developing countries can´t compete because they are too expensive in comparison. So they go out of business, even if their product is as good and would be cheaper in a regular market. This hinders these countries development and even makes them dependant on help.) Protectionist tariffs are another form of subsidy IMO.European consumers also end up paying more for the protected products as well as for those things they're actually suited to producing.
Yep. OTOH, then again, foodstuffs are heavily subsidized to keep the consumer costs low. Thinking about the European agro-industrial complex, its problems and the huge amounts of money sunk into it regularly gives you headaches. It is inefficient, leads to either over- or underproduction and keeps the market from regulating itself.
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OK here is the deal. Paizo is a business. A business is trying to make a profit. By said business making a profit, they pay taxes and employ people.
Paizo is also a small company, so they are not making say what Wal Mart makes.
It does not matter who prints, if I was the cheapest printer, and printing them in my back yard, and got a quality product out, and on time and was breaking no laws, Paizo has the choice to print with me.
So, Paizo goes out and prints American which increases the cost say the book 20%, 30%. So instead of a reasonably $50 for the book, it is now $65, $70, etc. How much is sale do they lose? How many employees can they not keep cause of cost of the book.
Yes it is shame many countries don't have the labor protections that we do in the US.
What is the Moralistic thing to do? Morals don't keep your bottom line cost effective.
AS for your leisure time, what about your computer? Your cell phone, your clothes, your sports.
I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe. And I don't agree with your statement, as nothing in this world justifies crushing other people. No cost effectivness, no profit margin, nothing. And yes, I know it is legal for Paizo to print in China. And I trust Paizo, I am sure they did their researches and picked up chinese printer that doesn't exploit people.
As for your idea of market ("as long as it is legal, I can do it") let me remind you that 100 years ago slavery was legal. That did not make it more moral than than now. Again, I am not politicizing it. I just happened to read where they print it on brought the issue here. And if "I go down", as you wrote earlier, well, I can always get up.
Vassago, I totally agree with everything you stated for this just perpetuates the race to the bottom mentality (lower wages =good sense for all). With the disintegration of the middle class @ hand and the new “Right to Work” Legislation happening in the USA, the wage disparity between the rich and poor continues to grow. Thankfully I live in Canada and we’re not seeing this @ such extremes as of now but if this continues it’s only a matter of time. As a Trade Unionist not to mention a father of two boys this trend is scary @ best and who knows what the worst case scenario truly is. I buy Canadian whenever possible, then North American and European next even if the product tend to be a little more pricey, for there is an old sang that is still true to this day “You get what you pay for”.
Vassago, I totally agree with everything you stated for this just perpetuates the race to the bottom mentality (lower wages =good sense for all). With the disintegration of the middle class @ hand and the new “Right to Work” Legislation happening in the USA, the wage disparity between the rich and poor continues to grow. Thankfully I live in Canada and we’re not seeing this @ such extremes as of now but if this continues it’s only a matter of time. As a Trade Unionist not to mention a father of two boys this trend is scary @ best and who knows what the worst case scenario truly is. I buy Canadian whenever possible, then North American and European next even if the product tend to be a little more pricey, for there is an old sang that is still true to this day “You get what you pay for”.
I agree with you in certain elements of this. Mainly the idea that creating a society with ever increasing inequity is both morally questionable but also downright dangerous as eventually there is blow back from the have nots in the society that can potentially bring the whole edifice crumbling down.
However I don't feel the solution is to try and create some kind of a closed system where we attempt to pretend that we are not a member of the global community of nations. Its especially crazy for a nation like Canada where exports is actually the core element upon which our entire economy is based.
Instead we get to use our voices and votes to advocate for better wealth distribution models within our own society. In effect if you want Canada to continue to insure that the wealth gap does not get to extreme then we need to pay for it.
Currently, according to a business section article I saw recently, Canada is still doing an OK job of that - gap is still closing here, if much more slowly then traditionally was the case, as compared to the US where the gap is widening.
Ultimately the responsible thing to do is to decide on our priorities. If this sort of thing is important to our society then we have to be willing to raise taxes in order to pay to implement such programs. Fundamentally the model that closes the gap works by taxing the successful in order to pay for programs that encourage the strata at the bottom to move from poverty to just poor and from poor to the ranks of the middle class over the long haul (often more then just one generation).
In the end if we value these elements in our society we need to pay for them...me and you...by loosing a little more off of each of our pay cheques.
I am happy that my post made a lot of people to discuss this subject. Everybody has the right to state an opinion, and by comparing these opinions we can make up our minds about what it's right or wrong.
I really trust that Paizo people did a lot of researches about their chinese printers before employing them. They are a progressive company, always careful about many issues. They are "the good guys" of RPGs industry, the way I see it.
People can say that "business is business" and the only thing that matters is profit, but I don't believe that. For the simple reason that I just could not stomach the idea that my leisure time comes from the suffering of others. If for my business I need to make other people suffer, that business shouldn't exist.
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For those who remember the 1989 Tienanmen's Square protest, and the slaughter that followed, China has always had blood on its hands. I'm a very cynical person, but even I couldn't believe that China was granted "Most favored nation" trading status in the mid 1990's.
The bottom line is that we make compromises with our morals everyday, but we have to try to do better. We have to put our citizenship responsibilities (to our country, AND planet) before our consumerism (which has no responsibilities). I fully realize the irony of complaining about China when every component from the keyboard I'm using, through all the wires, to your screen is made in China.
I would pay more for products made in the USA, but really the responsibility lies with the rules we establish to control trade. Corporations are incapable of moral thought, they must do what is best for their bottom line, therefor it is up to the (government of the) people to set guidelines that restrict corporations to actions that don't violate our basic morals. Sadly, the laws that do exist have exceptions written into them for China, and I don't know of any major political forces that are pushing a human rights agenda.
For those who are in the "but they need jobs" camp, I would simply ask what is so different about China then say North Korea?
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Who cares about Americans anyway?
Usually other Americans, and people who need us to come save the world.
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Who cares about Americans anyway?Usually other Americans, and people who need us to come save the world.
"People who needs us to come to save the world"
Well, as I said above, everybody is entitled their opinions. So let me state mine: USA is a great country and extremely important in the overall politics of the world, and a key ally to my country (Italy). But "saving the world" implies a judgment to which I cannot agree, and this judgment is "we are better than you and you need to be saved to see the right way to go". This is not acceptable. Most countries experiencing difficulties in the world do not need to be saved, they need their time to develop and reach a degree of democracy worth its name. And they are lately doing a good job of it: think about the arab spring.
Vassago, I totally agree with everything you stated for this just perpetuates the race to the bottom mentality (lower wages =good sense for all). With the disintegration of the middle class @ hand and the new “Right to Work” Legislation happening in the USA, the wage disparity between the rich and poor continues to grow. Thankfully I live in Canada and we’re not seeing this @ such extremes as of now but if this continues it’s only a matter of time. As a Trade Unionist not to mention a father of two boys this trend is scary @ best and who knows what the worst case scenario truly is. I buy Canadian whenever possible, then North American and European next even if the product tend to be a little more pricey, for there is an old sang that is still true to this day “You get what you pay for”.
Uh, beg pardon? What does Right to Work have to do with income disparity?If anything, it should decrease it, since blue collar workers will have less of their money taken away for use as political contributions to groups the workers may or may not agree with but have no say in either way
Edit: The Arab Spring? You mean the event that led to the overthrow of a fairly moderate dictator who left the rest of the world alone and replaced him with the terrorist group that gave rise to al-Qaeda? Yeah, that was a smashing success. It turns out that in retrospect it was a mistake to bother trying to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, but I can't say for a minute that they are worse off than Egypt and Libya.
Who cares about Americans anyway?Usually other Americans, and people who need us to come save the world."People who needs us to come to save the world"
Well, as I said above, everybody is entitled their opinions. So let me state mine: USA is a great country and extremely important in the overall politics of the world, and a key ally to my country (Italy). But "saving the world" implies a judgment to which I cannot agree, and this judgment is "we are better than you and you need to be saved to see the right way to go". This is not acceptable. Most countries experiencing difficulties in the world do not need to be saved, they need their time to develop and reach a degree of democracy worth its name. And they are lately doing a good job of it: think about the arab spring.
Yeah; um......
I notice you didn't seem to care what Gorbacz said, but.....now it's time to take a brave stand.Don't worry about me; I'm American, so I'm used to it by now.
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Hey guys, I love Paizo, and I love how it brings us all together from far parts of the world. Now, Paizo is just doing what they have to, so we can get their great products, who cares where it is from? I love it either way, and, Paizo has a very nice Website, and I hate to see it get filled up with meaningless arguments (or whatever all that was), so, could we please stay focused on the topic?
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Paizo is cool, the community is a wonderful rainbow of all nations, religions and sexual orientations.
Let's not start picking fights and save the political discussions ( and trolling) for the off topic threads.
I trust the Paizo command crew to make sure that they use a publisher that does not exploit its workers.
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Who cares about Americans anyway?Usually other Americans, and people who need us to come save the world."People who needs us to come to save the world"
Well, as I said above, everybody is entitled their opinions. So let me state mine: USA is a great country and extremely important in the overall politics of the world, and a key ally to my country (Italy). But "saving the world" implies a judgment to which I cannot agree, and this judgment is "we are better than you and you need to be saved to see the righ"]t way to go". This is not acceptable. Most countries experiencing difficulties in the world do not need to be saved, they need their time to develop and reach a degree of democracy worth its name. And they are lately doing a good job of it: think about the arab spring.
Not that I believe our reasons are altruistic, but Italy is is one of the ones we saved.
For those who remember the 1989 Tienanmen's Square protest, and the slaughter that followed, China has always had blood on its hands. I'm a very cynical person, but even I couldn't believe that China was granted "Most favored nation" trading status in the mid 1990's.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions regarding Tienanmen Square. Even when it was ongoing it often seemed to presume that it was some kind of a demand for Western style Democracy - it wasn't. I'll get back to this at the end of the post.
One of the interesting things about the protest was that the majority of the students where actually sons and daughters of relatively important people and in China that usually (especially back in 1989) means some one of some significance in the Communist Party and in China that means that its actually these same students that are currently running the country.
Very few students actually died (see above - these students where the sons and daughters of VIPs) it was really the workers that got left holding the bag - ironic because the protests had been going on for five full days before any significant numbers of the workers even showed up...but make no mistake - while the students where, for the most part, all quickly forgiven their transgressions the common workers where often made to pay.
OK back to the protest and what it was about. See the problem was that, by 1989, the Chinese economic plan for increasing integration into the trade systems of the rest of the world (and especially the western world) was actually well advanced - the CCP had been run by technocrats who viewed this sort of economic integration as the best way to advance China's position in terms of wealth and technology. The students grievance was not the lack of democracy, it was that they felt China had lost its ideological way - worse yet they felt that China was once again taking a subservient position - China was becoming the workshop of the imperialist running dog western states. Even more revolting there where all these western goods coming in and polluting the minds and souls of the people - especially important people (who had money) who where soiling themselves by buying things like Japanese cars.
What the students where here to do was to purge the CCP of its cancerous corruption and return it to its true ideological roots. Roots where China could stand tall and proud and lead the rest of the oppressed people of the world in the destruction of the capitalist running dog states.
Death to America, Death to Britain and especially death to Japan.
For those who are in the "but they need jobs" camp, I would simply ask what is so different about China then say North Korea?
Nothing.
Just because a country has a whack-job for a leader doesn't mean that its people are any less deserving of having a future. If a country is embargoed and shunned, as long as their leader holds off revolt (which obviously can be many decades) the people will have less than if they weren't. Sure... you're deliberately hoping that by increasing their suffering you might accelerate the eventual regime-change but... y'know... I can't personally stomach that.
Remember, human-rights tend to come hand-in-hand with general prosperity, which comes from economic excess. More money into a developing-nation crap-hole of a cesspit is basically watering the lawn. You're encouraging growth.
You might feel good because you're not supporting an unenlightened regime when you boycott China or North Korea or Cuba, but really, you're not supporting the suffering people within that regime too. And that I'm not okay with.
For those who are in the "but they need jobs" camp, I would simply ask what is so different about China then say North Korea?
For me, it's that my wife's cousin works in a Chinese factory, not a North Korean factory!
Remember, human-rights tend to come hand-in-hand with general prosperity, which comes from economic excess. More money into a developing-nation crap-hole of a cesspit is basically watering the lawn. You're encouraging growth.You might feel good because you're not supporting an unenlightened regime when you boycott China or North Korea or Cuba, but really, you're not supporting the suffering people within that regime too. And that I'm not okay with.
I think I take a very different view of this. Pouring money into a country only helps human rights IF you force human rights into the equation. Otherwise, those in power use the extra resources to better exploit those at the lowest levels of their society. In this country it was cotton and slaves. Or take diamonds for example. Why aren't those African countries with diamonds shining beacons of human rights? Or how about Saudi Arabia? They have taken billions or perhaps even trillions of dollars in oil revenue over the years, yet their human rights record is pretty bad.
I would be all for favored nation trade with China if it required labor and environmental protections (and probably a clause or two about Tibet and Taiwan), but it doesn't. NAFTA and many other treaties were originally sold with the idea that labor and environmental laws would be added - didn't happen. I don't see China's human rights record improving, and while many are getting richer, I think this kind of trade is a race to the bottom for BOTH the US and China.
I think I take a very different view of this. Pouring money into a country only helps human rights IF you force human rights into the equation. Otherwise, those in power use the extra resources to better exploit those at the lowest levels of their society.
I don't think so. There comes a point when those in power share their wealth with those who surround them. How best to keep your General from ousting you than to buy his loyalty. Sure... he could try taking over but maybe he won't maintain power. If he's just your General he's relatively safe. If he takes over he's next to be ousted.
Meanwhile the general shares with his friends and family. Trickle-down economics may not work as expected in a developed nation with an awesomely delicious "stock market" but in a developing nation it does.
In this country it was cotton and slaves. Or take diamonds for example. Why aren't those African countries with diamonds shining beacons of human rights?
You mean other than that the wealth doesn't stay in the country at all because De Beers isn't African at all? No idea.
Or how about Saudi Arabia? They have taken billions or perhaps even trillions of dollars in oil revenue over the years, yet their human rights record is pretty bad.
Yet improving every day. Their citizens have a higher standard of living than say... North Koreans, who we do embargo. Clearly the wealth does get around.
I would be all for favored nation trade with China if it required labor and environmental protections (and probably a clause or two about Tibet and Taiwan), but it doesn't. NAFTA and many other treaties were originally sold with the idea that labor and environmental laws would be added - didn't happen. I don't see China's human rights record improving, and while many are getting richer, I think this kind of trade is a race to the bottom for BOTH the US and China.
And I think all of this is Us vs Them, haves vs have-nots. It's easy to mandate an 8-hour work-day with overtime after that and mandatory breaks and lunch hours and WHIMIS training and seminars for employees to learn how to get along with GLBT co-workers... if you're not starving. We think we're awesome because unlike those dirty foreigners we don't allow lead in our paint. Thing is they can't afford lead-free options because they have less material wealth than we do. We're worrying about which cell phone carrier has the best plan while they're worrying about how to feed and house a billion citizens.
Detroit.
That city had a million citizens just 20 years ago. Now it's down to 700,000 people. It's suffering because of urban sprawl and declining tax-base. You have to drive your garbage trucks up and down 70% vacant streets but the gas doesn't get cheaper... you just have less money to pay for it with.
When I hear "let's fly 300,000 needy Chinese people to Detroit, give them jobs repairing and rebuilding the houses, and then re-open the stores that have closed in Detroit so those Chinese can work there and sell product to one another", then I'll accept dictation of working conditions. As long as we let our cities shrink and we keep tight fist on our borders... I think we're hypocritical to try to tell anyone on the outside what to do.
I don't think it is as simple as jobs=equality. Sure there are a lot of examples of this, but there is always more to it. In order for the wealth to spread throughout the society, there needs to be political equality first, otherwise the ruling class just puts up walls. All you need is an ethnic difference in the population, and it becomes a war between one side and the other. Sometimes these wars soften and lead toward equality, as in the case of South Africa, but other times this divide becomes highly toxic and implodes, or worse explodes. Sometimes this process can drag on for hundreds of years, other times it happens within a decade. Ethnic tensions tend to go beyond borders, and folks have long memories.
Again, we should have trade with China. It should come with requirements that we don't simply allow companies to act in a way that would be criminal if done on our own soil. We should require that the positive aspects of trade happen at a modern pace, not over the course of decades.
Civil but derailed. If you guys want to start a thread about Chinese working conditions, go right ahead. The original post was perfectly valid for this forum, but has moved outside that scope.
I noticed that most of the books from Paizo are published in China. While I have no doubt that this is cost-effective, I would like to know if Paizo has taken steps to verify the condition of the workers manufacturing their products. Anyone has any info on this????
I think this is about as on topic as you can get.
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I think a lot of people think these things are a lot worse than they are. Yes, these people are paid a lot less than what we would get for the same job. But there's a flip side to that. Everything is cheaper in those countries.
When you want a cheap vacation in Europe, you go to eastern Europe. Hell, I could take a 5 year sabbattical in eastern Europe. (If I didn't have to pay my mortgage on my appartment in the Netherlands)
In Turkey there are people who pick hazelnuts for €1 an hour, 11 hours a day. No, I wouldn't even consider a job like that. But to them, it's all they need.
Fact is, if Paizo would print all there wonderful books in America, they'd probably run out of money. This would lead to more Americans being unemployed, instead of less. It would also lead to more Chinese losing there jobs, as nobody is paying their salaries. Finally, it would lead to me having more money on my bankaccount... Which I might as well spend on my 5 year sabbattical in Poland.