It matters not, for I am the one who buys from paizo and it's their business to provide me with answers if I ask...
Not it's not, their business is the creation of gaming products and books. They are under no obligation from you or themselves to answer this particular question. They have done so, however, twice, and you're upset they haven't answered for a third time.
I am a customer asking an information.
And they are a business who has answered that question as much as they are going to answer it.
And I am a BUYER. I buy paizo products. And I am asking a question about this product, and the answer would make me a happier buyer. And that is all that there is to it. You are all trying to politicize my posts, while the only thing I wanted is to know if Paizo has any info on the working condition of their chinese workers. I never meant since the beginning to talk about politics.
The treatment of the workers in China - Which is deplorable AS WELL AS the way most of them survive at all - is political in and of itself. What you're griping about is akin to saying "Don't take this personally, but you're REALLY ugly."
And still I don't understand why you all get so angry.
It could have been the snarky "Just like an American" shot that was made.
Just a guess.
To be fair, its somewhat impractical to ask Paizo to confidently know the answer. China is a long distance away and unless Lisa is doing surprise visits it's very hard for her to have any real idea what's going on in the printing press. She may have done reasonable research with references but really, to ask her to make a statement where she can't first-hand verify the facts isn't realistic.
This isn't Apple and Foxconn. Apple knew perfectly well things weren't humane. Multiple suicides kind of hint at that strongly. Workers plights were pretty public. Some small print shop? Not so much.
I wouldn't expect Paizo to make a blanket statement on this. Vic's given as much as they know and that's that. Lisa and Vic owe it to their own workers to not do something irresponsible like Make Stuff Up. 'Cuz next week we could be reading about some Chinese ISO 9002-certified print shop where the workers burned to death because they were chained to the press and some ink caught fire. Paizo's staff don't need bad press and lowered sales.
Vic and Lisa treat their employees like family (as is very, very evident in her monthly blogs) and that is good enough for me.
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Mind that I don't know how these particular chinese workers employed by Paizo are treated: for all that I know they could have an amazing deal and be fine. We're just discussing possibilities :)
I'm really just making assumptions here, but I don't think that the Chinese workers are employed by Paizo. Paizo hires a Chinese printing company to print books. That company employs the Chinese workers. So implying that they work directly for Paizo is, assuming that my above assumptions are true (and I rather think that they are), just plain wrong.
Personally, I could give less of a damn about the issue. Paizo can have their books printed by Chelish halfling slaves, for all I care.
Just because something is the norm, doesn't mean it's a good thing.
No, it just means there's a good reason for it. Business is competitive. Paizo does it's best to do good for their employees and customers. That is all that's in their power to do.
Seriously, asking a small company to take responsibility for the working conditions of another companies employees in a foreign country is ludicrous. They do not have the resources, the influence or the legal ability to do anything about it one way or the other.
I know that lots of the vendors that supply my company insist on confidentiality with them. So even if I wanted to be completely transparent, I would be jeopardizing my own business and reputation (and possibly breaking the law) to reveal anything. I only owe my customers a quality product, at a fair price and a reasonable delivery time - that's it. And no more than that should be expected of Paizo.
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Having read through the different threads, the answer to the original question posted is no. Paizo has not done anything to insure that workers in the Chinese facilities where their products are printed are not exploited. With that said, Vic did imply that they would not tell him if workers were being exploited, Paizo has no real way to check themselves, and no option other then Chinese printing that wouldn't raise their costs something like +50%.
It isn't an ideal answer, but it does seem to be the depressing hard truth of the global economy. I would guess that the vast majority of customers (myself partly included) would not pay an additional 50%. Even if they would, many would just end up buying 50% fewer products, thus much less actual profit for Paizo.
Each customer, and Paizo bares indirect responsibility for the treatment of the workers in China. We are paying Paizo and they are paying a printer. When you PAY someone to do something YOU have some amount of responsibility. You also have some amount of responsibility for what goes on in the world if you live in a place with electricity and indoor plumbing. It doesn't matter if it is on your street, your town, your country, or the other side of the planet.
I'm not saying everyone needs to sell off their possessions and go work in a leper colony, but make some effort. Pay an extra couple of bucks for a non-sweatshop product, write a letter to some company or government, throw a brick at a local protest (that one is for you Comrade Anklebiter), or just speak your mind. It doesn't matter where you are, you are a human-ass-being, not just a "consumer", and your actions have consequences.
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China is China. Without sidetracking into a collegiate level Chinese history course...we have to add in the wrinkle of China being used by Western World Powers for a considerable amount of time. Therefore their entrenched business values reflect the darker side of Western Expansionist regimes as well as the significant cultural valleys that divide us (as different a cultural evolutionary path as Apple and Linux).
Now that China's leadership group (essentially plutocrats cloaked in more widely dissembled Chinese Nationalistic images) is capable of having influence on the entire global economy due to their near total domination of the people in their country as well as being able to control a staggering quantity of the make and manufacture of the world's "stuff." Their time in the sun has been a long time coming from their point of view. Unfortunately, the decision makers amongst them don't seem to be as concerned over the means to their ends (which includes environmental devastation and horrendous violations of human rights).
In essence, China is poised to make sure that Western Powers reap what they sowed for the last 200 years in Asia. If they have to pave their roads in the bones of their people to do it...I wouldn't put it past them. And the real twister? Due to multiple generations of propaganda as well as crushing control on the flow of information (restricted access to things like literacy for example)...the workers suffering in the offending industrial plants believe they are helping the home team to recapture their prestige in the world.
The message of the 'needs of the many' is so heavily entrenched that the common citizens of China could be highly offended if a corporation based in a Western nation told them they needed to ask for better conditions. Not because they wouldn't agree that a comfy chair twice a day would be nice...but they don't need yet another foreign influence trying to corrupt their mind. China is on the rise, and their integration into the rest of the world is going to be done on their terms as much as possible.
Until the people of China decide to change things for the people of China, there is little that the rest of the world can do (in the short term anyway). In the mean time, the information that a Chinese printer gives to their US based customers is mostly brochure-esque flim-flam, bills and product shipments.
I think it is safe to assume that if the peeps at Paizo found out that the particular printing company they used for printing treated their workers ruthlessly? They'd change to another printer...but guess what...it'd be another Chinese printer. Business decisions like that will do more to change conditions for workers in China than anything else. If these companies consistently lose business based on their workers' conditions or environmental issues they'll make changes (we hope).
*minor tangent* Also...guys/gals...assuming that every Chinese printing company looks like a 19th century British coal mine is just a tad dehumanizing, and undervalues the potential for compassion, and change within an entire ethnicity of people...*end tangent*
The best thing we can do (in my opinion) is throw our money at Paizo in mass quantities (I'm talkin' second mortgages and selling babies for medical experiments), and let them wage the battle of ethics and economics for us with Chinese printers. The Paizonians are first rate human beings and will do the right thing when presented with a challenge. We can't hold Cosmo against them.
I know that lots of the vendors that supply my company insist on confidentiality with them. So even if I wanted to be completely transparent, I would be jeopardizing my own business and reputation (and possibly breaking the law) to reveal anything. I only owe my customers a quality product, at a fair price and a reasonable delivery time - that's it. And no more than that should be expected of Paizo.
I understand it's the norm for businesses in most industries to insist on privacy. That still doesn't mean it's a good thing, it's just the accepted thing. Some management studies have shown that transparency can result in as much as an 18% increase in profits, while increasing confidentiality can actually reduce profits by up to 6%. The thing is, very few people want to step away from an industry standard. Combine that with the fact that major players in an industry are no longer risk takers and you have a culture where no one wants to take the first step.
External transparency by necessity improves internal transparency. This means you are able to identify and correct problems you might have not even known you had. Now, this isn't as big a deal for small businesses, if its you and 5 employees, you probably know everything that's going on anyways.
The head of the Fair Labor Association talking about solutions.
More related to gaming Fred Hicks has been fairly successful running his company. He isn't rich or anything, but they keep making more books. He also publishes all of his numbers with some pretty in depth break downs.
This stuff doesn't just affect the lives of Chinese workers. In 2008, 81 people in the US were killed by adulterated heparin that was made in China.
Its more like me and no employees - I am the boss and the peon, I do all the work (management, sales, labor and design). I am either totally transparent, or simply blind. No transparency issues here. All my vendors and supply manufacturers are in the US. I'm a graphic designer/digital printer - my paper, films, vinyl, and ink from US.
LoL... I gotta chuckle at this thread.. for the most part, every Pathfinder fan probably doesn't really care who makes the book, or where it comes from. It is a quality product, and very well done; both in the creation of content, and the "binding of the materials".
This is about gaming people.. let's just keep it there.
It matters not, for I am the one who buys from paizo and it's their business to provide me with answers if I ask...Not it's not, their business is the creation of gaming products and books. They are under no obligation from you or themselves to answer this particular question. They have done so, however, twice, and you're upset they haven't answered for a third time.
I am a customer asking an information.And they are a business who has answered that question as much as they are going to answer it.
And I am a BUYER. I buy paizo products. And I am asking a question about this product, and the answer would make me a happier buyer. And that is all that there is to it. You are all trying to politicize my posts, while the only thing I wanted is to know if Paizo has any info on the working condition of their chinese workers. I never meant since the beginning to talk about politics.The treatment of the workers in China - Which is deplorable AS WELL AS the way most of them survive at all - is political in and of itself. What you're griping about is akin to saying "Don't take this personally, but you're REALLY ugly."
And still I don't understand why you all get so angry.It could have been the snarky "Just like an American" shot that was made.
Just a guess.
WOW!! I did not know that they had invented the telepathic machine. Thank you for telling me what I feel and what I think. BTW: congratulations for the great public relation skills. Frog God Games just lost a loyal customer.
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I didn't tell you what you feel and what you think.
I'm sorry that you feel this was an attack when I just laid out facts. Telling you that you aren't entitled to what you think you're entitled to isn't reading your mind. Telling you that they've answered the question already isn't reading your mind. Telling you that you made a political statement and said it wasn't a political statement isn't reading your mind. Quoting what was said and that people are reacting badly to it also isn't reading your mind.
So you got me on that one.
If you're going to deprive yourself of quality books because you don't like facts being presented to you, that's really your loss. The way I see it, we would have lost you eventually anyway if you're this thin-skinned.
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Vassago,
If the conditions of the folks in China who print the hard copy products is truly a concern of yours and you are not satisfied with the answers you have been given but want to continue getting the gaming material, then I would strongly recommend you follow the advice Robert Hawkshaw listed above. Buy the PDF version and have it printed locally.
And to be clear, you have been given answers, as well as links to the previous times this issue has been raised, you are just not satisfied with them. Life is not perfect, one does not always get exactly what one wants and there comes a time when one should realize this fact, accept it and move on with one's life.
Additionally, you did indeed make the off hand remark Chuck mentioned:
I have nothing to answer to this, except that all of this is so american. I am not american, I am from Europe.
While I do suspect it was not intentional, making such a statement (as well as not capitalizing the national group about whom you are referring to) can very well be viewed as a snarky jab.
The bottom line is that the company did respond to you in so far as they could. The topic about which you were inquiring is and of itself a political issue (be it a concern for human rights, jobs moving overseas, or what ever other spin people may want to put on it) regardless of whether posting about a political topic was your intent or not. Hopefully you can see that by now.
EDIT: Additionally, while you may not have started out by intending a political discussion, by responding to other posts with a stance as to what is and is not acceptable does make it a political discussion of which you are an active participant. Personally, I agree that things would be better with better working conditions in all countries where workers have historically been exploited, not just China. But I also realize that there is only so much a small company can do to ensure that this is occurring. Hence my comments about due diligence before and my faith that Paizo has in fact done their due diligence.
While Chuck's tone may not have been ideal, his points were valid. Your response, however, is just moving this thread closer to going down in flames, a direction predicted at the start of the thread.
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If you're going to deprive yourself of quality books because you don't like facts being presented to you, that's really your loss. The way I see it, we would have lost you eventually anyway if you're this thin-skinned.
I, however, will continue throwing money your way at as rapid a pace as your release schedule allows.
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I, however, will continue throwing money your way at as rapid a pace as your release schedule allows.
If you're going to deprive yourself of quality books because you don't like facts being presented to you, that's really your loss. The way I see it, we would have lost you eventually anyway if you're this thin-skinned.
Agreed. Now back to the PDF machines, Frog-slave!
