Also we cant have loose immigration laws AND huge social programs. I am all for unrestricted immigration if we ditch social security and medicaid/are.
Only if you give me back all the money that I paid into Social Security at 5% compound interest per year.
I started working at 14, and after college and then 2 years in the Army, I have paid the maximum amount every year for 37 years, except for the last few. If I could have invested it myself, I would not need Social Security or Medicare for insurance because I would be quite wealthy and could afford it on my own.
For me and many others like me, Social Security and Medicare are NOT handouts. We bloody earned it.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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My concerns about Paizo's policy have led me to cease buying print copies of their product through their site; when I want it in print, I go to my local nerd store. Otherwise I buy their PDFs. This way, I'm at least supporting an endangered business (the store) on the now rare occasions I need a print copy and am forced to buy a product made in an oppressive kleptocracy.
And the "capitalism makes amorality inevitable for companies" is a bit of a stretch when it comes to an industry with exactly two major players. Especially since paizo can chose a country other than China or the US for its production.
I noticed that most of the books from Paizo are published in China. While I have no doubt that this is cost-effective, I would like to know if Paizo has taken steps to verify the condition of the workers manufacturing their products. Anyone has any info on this????
Since two employees have weighed in on this thread without answering your question, the answer seems to be that they have no idea what the conditions are for their workers. At this point you have to assume willful ignorance until the company not only gives their opinion but also gives verifiable evidence that they will stand behind.
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I noticed that most of the books from Paizo are published in China. While I have no doubt that this is cost-effective, I would like to know if Paizo has taken steps to verify the condition of the workers manufacturing their products. Anyone has any info on this????Since two employees have weighed in on this thread without answering your question, the answer seems to be that they have no idea what the conditions are for their workers. At this point you have to assume willful ignorance until the company not only gives their opinion but also gives verifiable evidence that they will stand behind.
Or it could be that they chose not to comment on these matters.
I have a difficult time believing blanket statements like Printed in China = child labor or it's opposite, companies are morally obliged to check every aspect of every company they have dealings with, however obliquely.
Gorbacz, if you want to boycott a company based on the death penalty or gay marriage, or the state of their roads, go right ahead. But you're advancing a straw man man argument in two ways: I've not said paizo has to buy American and I've not said that you should only support morally perfect entities. I don't make the perfect the enemy of the good, hence why I'm still a paizo customer.
And you and I are derailing the thread, which was about what the state of Paizo's Chinese working conditions are. If it's verifiably good working conditions, I'll be happy to buy print again.
But "no comment" isn't confidence-building for people on either side of this debate.
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Gorbacz, if you want to boycott a company based on the death penalty or gay marriage, or the state of their roads, go right ahead. But you're advancing a straw man man argument in two ways: I've not said paizo has to buy American and I've not said that you should only support morally perfect entities. I don't make the perfect the enemy of the good, hence why I'm still a paizo customer.
And you and I are derailing the thread, which was about what the state of Paizo's Chinese working conditions are. If it's verifiably good working conditions, I'll be happy to buy print again.
But "no comment" isn't confidence-building for people on either side of this debate.
Applying your logic, from my p.o.v. your support of anything American is detestable, because this money goes to help keep Gitmo, death penalty and other fun things US does.
Heck, I should ask Vic and Lisa how do they feel with their taxes funding this stuff, but I don't do that for a reason, see below.
Really, you guys are on a crap footing when it comes to arguments from human rights. So do I, due to my government helping you waterboard people without trail in secret black sites, which is one of reasons I try to keep the "human rights" argument quiet. Not a fan of hypocrisy and that all.
companies are morally obliged to check every aspect of every company they have dealings with, however obliquely.
We agree. Making stuff in China isn't automatically bad, unless you refuse to learn anything about their practices and thus can't make informed moral choices as a company or let your customers do the same. Not checking and being transparent about it with your customers is tantamount to saying you don't care and that your business partners can do anything they please without consequence from you. It is not that it's china, although they are as well-known for exploitation as the US is for polluting and outsourcing.
Applying your logic, from my p.o.v. your support of anything American is detestable, because this money goes to help keep Gitmo, death penalty and other fun things US does.
Heck, I should ask Vic and Lisa how do they feel with their taxes funding this stuff, but I don't do that for a reason, see below.
Really, you guys are on a crap footing when it comes to arguments from human rights. So do I, due to my government helping you waterboard people without trail in secret black sites, which is one of reasons I try to keep the "human rights" argument quiet. Not a fan of hypocrisy and that all.
Again, this is derailing the thread. I vote against people who support those things, with my wallet and at the ballot box. But I'm not going to keep debating this because it only distracts from the original question, which has gone unanswered. Again.
out of curiosity, what would Paizo need to tell you in order allow you to make an informed moral choice?
Please take into account that cost of printing, print run sizes, as well as as turnover and other information is something that Paizo, as a private company, does not need, nor wish to share.
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I'm not derailing.
I'm just pointing out that people who go after private companies for their alleged support in violations of human rights while paying taxes in a country that violates human rights shouldn't be exactly taken seriously. If your concern for human rights was so great, you would be living at least in Canada by now. :-)
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I don't have a car, and I'm gay. (Which is exactly the reason I won't be taking a 5 year sabbatical in Poland, even though I have the means to do so.)Which I might as well spend on my 5 year sabbattical in Poland.We're waiting for you, your wallet, your car and your woman. ;-)
Heck, my government's plan to scare LGBT people away is actually working... It's time to move to Canada.
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Emigrating to Canada isn't very easy. Like most nations with national healthcare and other large social programs, Immigration is tightly restricted. You have to prove that you'll be able to contribute to their system. It's not like packing up on one side of your country and going off to the other side for a new start.
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I looked it up in the linked threads.
As I understand it, for competitive reasons, Paizo won't disclose the cost or volume of their print work. Neither will their printer disclose wages of their workers. The best you're going to get is this:
I can tell you that they're ISO 9002 Standard Certified, and while that standard doesn't directly address working conditions, it does address process and quality standards that are hard to meet with poor working conditions.
Again, I'm genuinely curious, what information would satisfy you? Because from where I'm standing, it looks like you want information that Paizo is unable to give you without giving up information which, in a market of two, would be extremely unwise to share.
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Emigrating to Canada isn't very easy. Like most nations with national healthcare and other large social programs, Immigration is tightly restricted. You have to prove that you'll be able to contribute to their system. It's not like packing up on one side of your country and going off to the other side for a new start.
Dammit, it looked so simple on paper...
I noticed that most of the books from Paizo are published in China. While I have no doubt that this is cost-effective, I would like to know if Paizo has taken steps to verify the condition of the workers manufacturing their products. Anyone has any info on this????Since two employees have weighed in on this thread without answering your question, the answer seems to be that they have no idea what the conditions are for their workers. At this point you have to assume willful ignorance until the company not only gives their opinion but also gives verifiable evidence that they will stand behind.
I do not know if Paizo employess have no idea about the workers condition or if they willingfully choose not to comment. But, still I would like an official answer to my original question so that I can make an informed choice when I buy paizo products. And I really do not mean to politicize this: I just want to know that when I read the latest AP, this AP hasn't been manufactured exploiting children or underpaying workers. I think it is simple common sense: who would want to buy a book, if for creating that book a child had to skip school and work for 5 $ a month? Would you accept this in the USA? In Canada? In Poland? No you would not. So why should we accept this in China? Just because it is far away and "things are this way"? Or because "business is business"?
I love Paizo, they are the good guys of RPGs. I love reading about Erik on facebook when he writes about his character being alive after 33 sessions with no armor. I want lo lose myself in Golarion and make it part of my experiences in life. I want all of the above and more. But I want to be sure that all of this does not come at the price of somebody else suffering. Because I cannot tolerate that my "fake life" comes at the cost of somebody's "real life".
Please Paizo, can you clarify on this?
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Emigrating to Canada isn't very easy. Like most nations with national healthcare and other large social programs, Immigration is tightly restricted. You have to prove that you'll be able to contribute to their system. It's not like packing up on one side of your country and going off to the other side for a new start.Dammit, it looked so simple on paper...
Sorry, with Celine Dion, Canada is full of their quota of flesh eating bags. (I'm a baaaaddd boy!)
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I do not know if Paizo employess have no idea about the workers condition or if they willingfully choose not to comment. But, still I would like an official answer to my original question so that I can make an informed choice when I buy paizo products. And I really do not mean to politicize this: I just want to know that when I read the latest AP, this AP hasn't been manufactured exploiting children or underpaying workers. I think it is simple common sense: who would want to buy a book, if for creating that book a child had to skip school and work for 5 $ a month? Would you accept this in the USA? In Canada? In Poland? No you would not. So why should we accept this in China? Just because it is far away and "things are this way"? Or because "business is business"?
I love Paizo, they are the good guys of RPGs. I love reading about Erik on facebook when he writes about his character being alive after 33 sessions with no armor. I want lo lose myself in Golarion and make it part of my experiences in life. I want all of the above and more. But I want to be sure that all of this does not come at the price of somebody else suffering. Because I cannot tolerate that my "fake life" comes at the cost of somebody's "real life".
Please Paizo, can you clarify on this?
Just curious, but do you do this much research on everything you buy? (Clothes, sneakers, playing cards, children's toys, electronics?)
Just curious, but do you do this much research on everything you buy? (Clothes, sneakers, playing cards, children's toys, electronics?)
I do not know if Paizo employess have no idea about the workers condition or if they willingfully choose not to comment. But, still I would like an official answer to my original question so that I can make an informed choice when I buy paizo products. And I really do not mean to politicize this: I just want to know that when I read the latest AP, this AP hasn't been manufactured exploiting children or underpaying workers. I think it is simple common sense: who would want to buy a book, if for creating that book a child had to skip school and work for 5 $ a month? Would you accept this in the USA? In Canada? In Poland? No you would not. So why should we accept this in China? Just because it is far away and "things are this way"? Or because "business is business"?
I love Paizo, they are the good guys of RPGs. I love reading about Erik on facebook when he writes about his character being alive after 33 sessions with no armor. I want lo lose myself in Golarion and make it part of my experiences in life. I want all of the above and more. But I want to be sure that all of this does not come at the price of somebody else suffering. Because I cannot tolerate that my "fake life" comes at the cost of somebody's "real life".
Please Paizo, can you clarify on this?
Off topic. And you know it very well.
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Off topic. And you know it very well.Just curious, but do you do this much research on everything you buy? (Clothes, sneakers, playing cards, children's toys, electronics?)
Not off topic at all, this is about Paizo's chinese printers, do you hold every purchase up to this human rights standard or just small gaming companies with low margins catering to a niche audience?
Not off topic at all, this is about Paizo's chinese printers, do you hold every purchase up to this human rights standard or just small gaming companies with low margins catering to a niche audience?Off topic. And you know it very well.Just curious, but do you do this much research on everything you buy? (Clothes, sneakers, playing cards, children's toys, electronics?)
This is not against Paizo or my purchases taste, it's about buying in an informed way.
Low margins and niche audience wouldn't justify cruelty though.
Just to be clear: You think Paizo should give some kind of public guarantee about the business practises of their overseas suppliers (however they're supposed to be able to provide that anyway), but you're not willing to answer Coridan's question as to whether this is something you ask from every business you buy from or whether it's just Paizo.
Is that right?
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right. However, if you're making this demand in public but arent willing to state your own position clearly it makes me slightly skeptical. You've made two posts now avoiding Coridan's question about your ethical practises/standards and yet have made repeated public demands for Paizo to explain their view and to outline what steps they've taken to ensure the companies they buy from treat their employees well.
Paizo spoil us by revealing an extraordinary amount about their business and what goes on behind the scenes - far more than most producers of products we might buy. That doesnt mean they're obligated to reveal everything we might be curious about.
In my view, once you've asked and they've elected not to answer in a way which satisfies you, you either take it to some more private mode of communication or you drop it and make whatever decision you feel is right from what limited information you have available.
Not off topic at all, this is about Paizo's chinese printers, do you hold every purchase up to this human rights standard or just small gaming companies with low margins catering to a niche audience?
Judging by the lack of a real answer on two occasions, and the overly lofty rhetoric in the second reply, I'm guessing the answer is the second one.
Here's what this all boils down to for me, if you are scared that your money is going to help oppress poor foreigners, then don't buy Paizo products, especially print products. For that matter, if you are going to be intellectually honest about it, don't buy anything that conceivably could have come from anywhere that employees might have been oppressed.
I see what has been called oppression as the lesser of two evils, so I don't lose any sleep.
Here's what this all boils down to for me, if you are scared that your money is going to help oppress poor foreigners, then don't buy Paizo products, especially print products. For that matter, if you are going to be intellectually honest about it, don't buy anything that conceivably could have come from anywhere that employees might have been oppressed.
Yeah - I suspect you'll be hard pressed to read a PDF on something built by highly paid professionals living a western lifestyle.
You don't see the point because you don't want to see the point.
But since you want to play, let's play. Here comes the long explanation that you all already know but pretend not to understand.
It matters not where I buy my things, if my purchases are moral or ethic or if they aren't. I could be the most moral buyer on the world, or I could just have been taking a stand agaisnt paizo for whatever reason. What if all of this has striken my fancy just a couple of days ago? It matters not, for I am the one who buys from paizo and it's their business to provide me with answers if I ask, not mine to justify myself. It could be entirely my choice to decide that I want to be moral and ethic only with Paizo, and I have the right to do so. It's my business if I want to buy chinese clothes and not asking any question, as it is paizo's business to answer my questions about producing their books in China. I am a customer asking an information.
And I am a BUYER. I buy paizo products. And I am asking a question about this product, and the answer would make me a happier buyer. And that is all that there is to it. You are all trying to politicize my posts, while the only thing I wanted is to know if Paizo has any info on the working condition of their chinese workers. I never meant since the beginning to talk about politics.
Also, you all talk like if I want to hurt paizo. I don't. I love paizo: paizo is the best thing that happened to RPGs in the last 15 years. Yet you keep on writing about USA saving the world, about my purchases taste, about "business is business" and such. What has this to do with the thread? Unless you are just trolling, and thus I am just wasting my time.
And still I don't understand why you all get so angry, so full of hate. I just asked a legitimate question: USA is a democracy so I can do it as long as I don't commit an offence or insult someone. My question might be disturbing, but still is legitimate. Tell you what: given the results, I wished I had never started the thread and sent a PM to paizo instead.
To wrap it up: can somebody from the staff please bring order back to this thread? I feel slightly insulted and needlessy attacked.
You don't see the point because you don't want to see the point.
But since you want to play, let's play. Here comes the long explanation that you all already know but pretend not to understand.
It matters not where I buy my things, if my purchases are moral or ethic or if they aren't. I could be the most moral buyer on the world, or I could just have been taking a stand agaisnt paizo for whatever reason. What if all of this has striken my fancy just a couple of days ago? It matters not, for I am the one who buys from paizo and it's their business to provide me with answers if I ask, not mine to justify myself. It could be entirely my choice to decide that I want to be moral and ethic only with Paizo, and I have the right to do so. It's my business if I want to buy chinese clothes and not asking any question, as it is paizo's business to answer my questions about producing their books in China. I am a customer asking an information.
And I am a BUYER. I buy paizo products. And I am asking a question about this product, and the answer would make me a happier buyer. And that is all that there is to it. You are all trying to politicize my posts, while the only thing I wanted is to know if Paizo has any info on the working condition of their chinese workers. I never meant since the beginning to talk about politics.
Also, you all talk like if I want to hurt paizo. I don't. I love paizo: paizo is the best thing that happened to RPGs in the last 15 years. Yet you keep on writing about USA saving the world, about my purchases taste, about "business is business" and such. What has this to do with the thread? Unless you are just trolling, and thus I am just wasting my time.
And still I don't understand why you all get so angry, so full of hate. I just asked a legitimate question: USA is a democracy so I can do it as long as I don't commit an offence or insult someone. My question might be disturbing, but still is legitimate. Tell you what: given the results, I wished I had never started the thread and sent a PM to paizo instead.
To wrap it up: can somebody from the staff please bring order back to this thread? I feel slightly insulted and needlessy attacked.
I'm sorry that you feel attacked or insulted. As I said:
"To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right."
My point is not that you shouldnt have asked the question. It's that when you do and the staff answer (but not in a way you like) - you should then leave it be or move it to private modes of communication. They may have reasons for not wanting to go into it in public.
I didnt intend to imply you had no right to ask the question in the first place. Nor to attack or insult you, so sorry about that.
You don't see the point because you don't want to see the point.
But since you want to play, let's play. Here comes the long explanation that you all already know but pretend not to understand.
It matters not where I buy my things, if my purchases are moral or ethic or if they aren't. I could be the most moral buyer on the world, or I could just have been taking a stand agaisnt paizo for whatever reason. What if all of this has striken my fancy just a couple of days ago? It matters not, for I am the one who buys from paizo and it's their business to provide me with answers if I ask, not mine to justify myself. It could be entirely my choice to decide that I want to be moral and ethic only with Paizo, and I have the right to do so. It's my business if I want to buy chinese clothes and not asking any question, as it is paizo's business to answer my questions about producing their books in China. I am a customer asking an information.
And I am a BUYER. I buy paizo products. And I am asking a question about this product, and the answer would make me a happier buyer. And that is all that there is to it. You are all trying to politicize my posts, while the only thing I wanted is to know if Paizo has any info on the working condition of their chinese workers. I never meant since the beginning to talk about politics.
Also, you all talk like if I want to hurt paizo. I don't. I love paizo: paizo is the best thing that happened to RPGs in the last 15 years. Yet you keep on writing about USA saving the world, about my purchases taste, about "business is business" and such. What has this to do with the thread? Unless you are just trolling, and thus I am just wasting my time.
And still I don't understand why you all get so angry, so full of hate. I just asked a legitimate question: USA is a democracy so I can do it as long as I don't commit an offence or insult someone. My question might be disturbing, but still is legitimate. Tell you what: given the results, I wished I had never started the thread and sent a PM to paizo instead.
To wrap it up: can somebody from the staff please bring order back to this thread? I feel slightly insulted and needlessy attacked.
I'm sorry you felt insulted and attacked. I certainly didnt mean it that way. As I said:
"To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right."
My point was that you have every right to ask the question in a public forum - Paizo are nice like that. However, once they've answered and it's not to your satisfaction, I think you should take it to private channels (like email or a letter) since there may well be good reasons they dont want to discuss it publically beyond what they've said in the threads linked earlier.
Apologies if it came off that I was angry or full of hate, that wasnt the intent at all.
I'll point out that it is the weekend (a very lovely one full of sun that we don't often get in this part of the country), and the people that you want answers from are likely out and enjoying said weekend and are away from the messageboards.
In the meantime, everybody please be civil and respectful to each other. If you can't do that, then don't post here.
Also if they do find a low cost American printer will the books be as durable? I don't want my books falling apart just to have them made in America. Also one of the product catalog is printed in AMerica and it does not look the most durable.
It's been stated before, in one of the threads linked above, that the cost differential would be more like $10 more for an AP volume at the best price quoted in the US or Canada. So $30 rather than $20 monthly, before discount.
EDIT: By Erik Mona here, although that was in 2007.
It's been stated before, in one of the threads linked above, that the cost differential would be more like $10 more for an AP volume at the best price quoted in the US or Canada. So $30 rather than $20 monthly, before discount.
EDIT: By Erik Mona here, although that was in 2007.
Does not have to be USA or Canada. It can be any other country that can guarantee a better standard for the workers. Mind that I don't know how these particular chinese workers employed by Paizo are treated: for all that I know they could have an amazing deal and be fine. We're just discussing possibilities :)
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Emigrating to Canada isn't very easy. Like most nations with national healthcare and other large social programs, Immigration is tightly restricted. You have to prove that you'll be able to contribute to their system. It's not like packing up on one side of your country and going off to the other side for a new start.Dammit, it looked so simple on paper...
Aw, you could always come to the Netherlands and work for minimum wages, while living in a small appartment with 14 other guys...
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Someone upthread mentioned ISO:xxxx certification. That is a quality assurance deal, and has nothing to do with fair wages or anything of that sort. The prison factory I worked in (for a dollar an hour) was ISO:9000 certified (in large part due to my work in getting it compliant), and they didn't give a crap that we were basically slave labor.
Heck, Texas state prison factories that pay inmates NOTHING have been ISO certified.
Don't take an ISO cert to mean the workers have decent conditions or get decent wages. It just means that the factory documents and utilizes an effective quality assurance program that meets ISO standards. Nothing more, nothing less.
Someone upthread mentioned ISO:xxxx certification. That is a quality assurance deal, and has nothing to do with fair wages or anything of that sort. The prison factory I worked in (for a dollar an hour) was ISO:9000 certified (in large part due to my work in getting it compliant), and they didn't give a crap that we were basically slave labor.
Heck, Texas state prison factories that pay inmates NOTHING have been ISO certified.
Don't take an ISO cert to mean the workers have decent conditions or get decent wages. It just means that the factory documents and utilizes an effective quality assurance program that meets ISO standards. Nothing more, nothing less.
That can still mattter if you think making products that fall apart is immoral.
Just to be clear: You think Paizo should give some kind of public guarantee about the business practises of their overseas suppliers (however they're supposed to be able to provide that anyway), but you're not willing to answer Coridan's question as to whether this is something you ask from every business you buy from or whether it's just Paizo.
Is that right?
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right. However, if you're making this demand in public but arent willing to state your own position clearly it makes me slightly skeptical. You've made two posts now avoiding Coridan's question about your ethical practises/standards and yet have made repeated public demands for Paizo to explain their view and to outline what steps they've taken to ensure the companies they buy from treat their employees well.
Paizo spoil us by revealing an extraordinary amount about their business and what goes on behind the scenes - far more than most producers of products we might buy. That doesnt mean they're obligated to reveal everything we might be curious about.
In my view, once you've asked and they've elected not to answer in a way which satisfies you, you either take it to some more private mode of communication or you drop it and make whatever decision you feel is right from what limited information you have available.
When voting with your wallet all that the customer deems relevant is therefore relevant.
Yes, which is why I said:
"To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right."
I wasnt commenting on his choices as a consumer. I was suggesting a public forum might not be the best choice for a discussion with Paizo about it (given he was unsatisfied with the public answers).
...paizo can chose a country other than China or the US for its production.We have occasionally printed marketing materials in Canada.
Like the smash hit Ultimate Hockey?
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Does not have to be USA or Canada. It can be any other country that can guarantee a better standard for the workers. Mind that I don't know how these particular chinese workers employed by Paizo are treated: for all that I know they could have an amazing deal and be fine. We're just discussing possibilities :)
See Houston Derek's reply above; there is no country in the world that offers this guarantee you seek (at least honestly.) USA effectively utilizes slave labor in its prison system. Tell you what, when you find a country free of cruelty and the wealthy/powerful unwilling to take advantage of the poor/weak, let me know and I'll pack my bags and jump aboard your spaceship, because you'll surely have left the planet Earth.
Yes, which is why I said:
"To be clear, I'm not criticising how you decide what to buy - you do whatever makes you feel right."
I wasnt commenting on his choices as a consumer. I was suggesting a public forum might not be the best choice for a discussion with Paizo about it (given he was unsatisfied with the public answers).
If they aren't going to give the answer in public, they aren't going to give it in private to a random person on the internet either.
The RPG industry is secretive about a lot of things, which is too bad.
The RPG industry is secretive about a lot of things, which is too bad.
Most companies are very conservative what they publish about their internal workings to protect their investments from rivals. Try asking Apple or GM or Sony about the details of their production, and see what answer you´ll get. Just because RPG companies are closer to their customers for the most part, because the industry is smaller, does not mean that the customers are any more entitled to know the details.
Just because something is the norm, doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Most companies are not completely transparent about every aspect of their business. I run a small graphic design studio and have never needed to be transparent about my operations to my clientel. They don't consider that bad and neither do I - there really is no issue, here.
Just because something is the norm, doesn't mean it's a bad thing.