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I wanted to discuss something with the community. I just got done ranting a bit about this phenomena on my blog: Here's the Page. You can read the full thing there, but I'm going to copy/paste a few snippets from the blog to get the discussion flowing...
There's a disturbing (at least to me) trend with what seems like a lot of gamers today. It seems that there is this idea that monsters, regardless of resources and Intelligence, do not have or use equipment. They act as though those treasure ratings on their creature entries that read stuff like "NPC gear", "Incidental", "Standard", "Double", and "Triple" are just there to let the GM know how many gold pieces the monster is supposed to magically turn into when slain, or are supposed to be magic items that the NPCs are simply carrying on them but aren't allowed to use.
I have several problems with this sort of argument or thinking. The first problem is simply from a verisimilitude point. In many cases you have these creatures who are living, breathing, and most of all thinking individuals, who in many cases have weapon and/or armor proficiencies by virtue of their creature type (Outsiders are proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, for example), who apparently simply refuse to use equipment and magic items available to them. Even when these creatures supposedly loaded with treasures. Many of those treasures which can or probably will include magic items that they themselves can wear and use.
Here's an example. The default Ogre Mage is CR 8 with "Double" standard treasure. That means that he has 6,700 gp worth of goods on him at any given time. The default entry simply gives him enough equipment to function right out of the gate. He has a mundane greatsword, a bow, and a chain shirt. That's barely over 1,000 gp worth of equipment. Leaving him roughly 5,700 gp worth of treasures to have on hand. Now as is the norm, the treasure is generally divided up in goods that seems reasonable for this terrible super intelligent ogre-demon thing to have on hand. Now beyond just being boring, carrying all that as coin would impractical. That's about 114 lbs. of gold coins. That would get irritating I think. A more reasonable spread might look like this...
Treasure: Double [chain shirt, greatsword, composite (+7) longbow, +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000 gp), +1 ring of protection (2,000 gp), +1 cloak of resistance (1,000 gp), oil of magic weapon x3 (150 gp), bag of 25 quartz gems (0.5 lbs., 250 gp), assorted jewelry such as rings, piercings, and armlets (250 gp), 500 silver pieces (10 lb., 50 gp)]Naturally, the above treasure value is not contradicting the Bestiary at all. In fact, few creatures have a full set of equipment and treasure set out for them. Of course, that's because the bestiary entries are only the most basic of basic. The GM is expected to tweak them a bit so that they fit properly in the game. Not every orc in the world is going to be wielding a falchion. Not every gnoll is going to be using an axe and a shield. Not every marilith is going to be using 6 mundane longswords. You are expected to round out their equipment as would be sensible.
Now let's imagine that you encounter a Marilith. A mighty six-armed tauric-like woman with the upper half of a human, and the lower half of a giant serpent. She leads whole demon armies as a general. She is one of the most powerful types of creatures in the whole universe. An entire city may tremble should one of these incredibly powerful and tactically brilliant demons turn her gaze upon them and find them undesirable. Now imagine that you are to fight this creature...
She charges headfirst into combat naked save for 6 mundane swords made of common iron. After being dispatched, she suddenly has 64,000 gold pieces worth of loot on her. But she was naked just a moment ago, save for her piddly mundane swords. Where the hell did 64,000 gold pieces worth of treasure come from? She wasn't wearing anything. I mean, if you want to argue that they only get what's specifically listed in the bestiary verbatim (and ignore that they are supposed to possess other treasures besides the 6 swords due to their treasure value), then they have no clothing with pockets. They have no satchel to carry their goods in. Even if you assumed that it was just in jewelry and assorted piercings, that would mean this woman is wearing about 1,280 pounds of gold on her body (roughly equivalent to wearing medium to heavy armor in terms of her carrying capacity, despite both her size and demonic strength). Which leads us to wonder...
WTF is her treasure? Suddenly, the moment of truth dawns on you, and your stomach churns for a moment. It's time for a full-body cavity search. Clearly, this crazy demoness had decided that instead of wielding her +X magic items, assorted gemstones, magical baubles, scrolls, wands, staffs, and potions, she must have ingested them, and/or her various orifices double as storage compartments. Imagine the look on the heroes' faces as they pull a magic staff out of her snake-like rectum, or that +2 flaming greatsword out of her ear.
Then one must wonder, why the hell did she have all this cool stuff shoved so far up her posterior that she could have used against the heroes of the world in their climactic encounter, instead of 6 mundane swords that are no better than the common drivel that your typical orc prances around with. What a very strange fetish that...
So let's discuss this topic, hm? (^-^)
All of my NPCs use equipment that is consistent with their wealth level. If an NPC bandit has enough gold for a magic bow, they'll have a magic bow. Or they'll have potions, which they might well USE if given a chance.
I do my best to play my NPCs as if they are reasonably intelligent and would rather have useful stuff than pockets full of jangly gold.
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last time I ran a marilith, she had 6 magic swords that put some concern onto the faces of the players :)
The wealth charts are a guideline. I either upgrade creatures with stuff they can use, or place the treasure somewhere more appropriate within the adventure. Nothing says the items and coin have to be directly on the creature.
I think the argument here is that of space saving. I believe the writers reduce the itemization of gear to cut word count, as well as leave a proximate breathing space for individual GM's to write in their own items, where some GM's will land on both sides of that fence. Either they will generate the items, and/or will simply run with 'as is' statements.
If I'm correct, then it's the fault of current industry standards to be cost effective in an area that's somewhat safe to do so. There are too many examples of severe word count limiting, wherein the cutting turns a fantastic module into a confusing blunder-bout. For example, 'The Harrowing' is an incredibly rich and unique stand alone adventure, but takes the GM several readings and a strong imagination to formulate how every encounter is actually run. The cutting was so bad that the premise, flavor text, even tactical information is left out.
So if I'm forced to generate my own gear for npc's by the simplistic information, I'm ok with it, so long as I get fair warning to do so. Do I like it, no. Any composition should be allowed completion, without being forced to fit within printing cost confines.
It's a guide. Not every monster has the exact value suggested.
Nor are they always carrying it all. Much of it may be hidden in their lair.
But yes, what they have that's useful should be used.
If your Ogre Mage is home, he'll probably have the full value, some of it hidden/trapped somewhere in his home. If he's out raiding, he'll probably only have the useful stuff on him.
Same with the Marilith, though you're probably not fighting her at home. She'd have gear and probably some jewelry.
Does anyone really play differently?
According to some of the threads I've been in, yes. Some use monsters only as they are in the Bestiary, and so much as putting a demon in leather armor is seen as some great anti-player (or anti-class) act. Even going so far as to make claims that giving them equipment that benefits them should warrant an entire CR increase. For example: A succubus has 5,200 gp worth of treasure on her in her statblock. However, the default succubus is more or less naked (no jests intended) and fights with her claws. However, she has proficiency with martial weapons, so you're well within your reasoning to slap a +1 cold iron scimitar and +1 studded leather armor on her, to make her seem more ominous and cool. It makes her a bit stronger martially (she now enjoys an improved attack routine and her AC is 2 higher), but she's just using her treasure. No CR increase warranted.
Depends on the demoness, some of them might enjoy it while living. :)
Err...rawr. :3
The wealth charts are a guideline. I either upgrade creatures with stuff they can use, or place the treasure somewhere more appropriate within the adventure. Nothing says the items and coin have to be directly on the creature.
Pretty much the same here, though I generally do assume that the treasure values for creatures are the treasures they have on hand (and I think this is supported by the explanation of treasure values such as standard vs incidental in the Bestiary), but see below...
I believe many creatures will have a much larger treasure squirreled away in their lairs. A dragon has a triple treasure value, but if you tried to consider that treasure to be their dragon's "horde", you will be sorely disappointed. A very pathetic and paltry horde, it would be. If you wanted to find the dragon's true riches, instead of his pocket change, then that would likely include the treasures of his minions, traps, and so forth.
For example, a CR 14 dragon might have a lair filled with...
12 CR 10 traps (65,400 gp)
12 CR 10 encounters with creatures with Incidental treasure, such as oozes, giant vermin, elementals, undead, and other monstrous minions (65,400 gp)
1 CR 14 red dragon in a room with a CR 10 resetting summon monster IX trap spitting out fire elementals (50,450 gp)
Total Dragon's Horde: 181,250 gp worth of treasures (though only 45,000 gp is on the dragon at any given time, probably wondrous items that it can benefit from like rings, amulets, etc).
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This is one of my favorite things I've learned from Ashiel. I just hadn't thought about it before. It takes a little more prep, and my players were shocked at first, but I'm never going back. It keeps things a lot more surprising. Also, consumables get used up during combat so sometimes a player will be like "kill that adept quick I really want that wand of scorching ray while it has some charges left!"
Overall I think the CR system has started working a lot better for me since I started doing this.
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The wealth charts are a guideline. I either upgrade creatures with stuff they can use, or place the treasure somewhere more appropriate within the adventure. Nothing says the items and coin have to be directly on the creature.Pretty much the same here, though I generally do assume that the treasure values for creatures are the treasures they have on hand (and I think this is supported by the explanation of treasure values such as standard vs incidental in the Bestiary), but see below...
I believe many creatures will have a much larger treasure squirreled away in their lairs. A dragon has a triple treasure value, but if you tried to consider that treasure to be their dragon's "horde", you will be sorely disappointed. A very pathetic and paltry horde, it would be. If you wanted to find the dragon's true riches, instead of his pocket change, then that would likely include the treasures of his minions, traps, and so forth.
For example, a CR 14 dragon might have a lair filled with...
12 CR 10 traps (65,400 gp)
12 CR 10 encounters with creatures with Incidental treasure, such as oozes, giant vermin, elementals, undead, and other monstrous minions (65,400 gp)
1 CR 14 red dragon in a room with a CR 10 resetting summon monster IX trap spitting out fire elementals (50,450 gp)Total Dragon's Horde: 181,250 gp worth of treasures (though only 45,000 gp is on the dragon at any given time, probably wondrous items that it can benefit from like rings, amulets, etc).
I like your thinking on the dragon horde Ashiel but I will ask are you counting the traps as having their own treasure or their total value in construction?
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This is one of my favorite things I've learned from Ashiel. I just hadn't thought about it before. It takes a little more prep, and my players were shocked at first, but I'm never going back. It keeps things a lot more surprising. Also, consumables get used up during combat so sometimes a player will be like "kill that adept quick I really want that wand of scorching ray while it has some charges left!"
Overall I think the CR system has started working a lot better for me since I started doing this.
Same here bearded devils become a lot more fearsome when they are actually geared like a foot soldiers in hells tightly controlled and rigidly trained army.
Good thread.
I used to run straight bestiary stat blocks, and then put the treasure value in a horde somewhere, or on the person of the creature in the form of mostly coins and gems and jewelry, or some magic items the creature wouldn't know how to use.
I think if I played more high level games I would have figured it out, you don't run into the "cavity search the marilith" problem when you're fighting owlbears and stuff.
But since Ashiel pointed this out, even simple little orcs and bandits have got more interesting. For example my 3rd level players were pretty surprised when an easy looking hoard of goblins opened by chucking tanglefoot bags, and then the loot they yielded was adjusted down accordingly.
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Speaking as someone who occasionally creates monsters for publishing I tend to avoid writing monsters with this idea in mind (with one exception I grant you) purely because of that phenomenon.
This being said caution absolutely needs to be given about equipment and monsters borderlining their CR's as is. I find it ironic that this is being written by the same person who wrote a rather concise guide on how to get more mileage out of low budget potions and mundane items as that is precisely the kind of thing that tips CR's way out of line.
Orcs with falchions are already pretty damn fierce. Orcs each with a potion of enlarge person (well within their encounter budget) is a nightmare encounter. While you make a point about verisimilitude this needs to come with a warning label for a gm to carefully consider what they are doing exactly before they're being sacrificed on a black altar by highly annoyed players.
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When I introduced this into my monster builds, I also introduced my players to Ashiels adventure guide you mentioned. The monsters got more deadly, and the players became more capable. It was more then a net zero though, because the game achieved more verisimilitude, and a more cautious, tactical play style emerged which in turn deepened immersion.
I agree, and I'd love to see Bestiary entries with suggested loot configurations. It would make sense if satyrs invested in expensive food and wine, hobgoblins use well-maintained masterwork weapons & armor, and Djinni carried a variety of wands and scrolls. I like to prep that way when I have can, but it's quite time consuming.
The cool thing is that you can reasonably wing-it. On the fly you can sub in a +1 to AC at 1,000gp of treasure. Or +1 to saves for the same. You can go with +1 to hit & damage for 2,000gp. Don't bother to recalculate everything... just sort of treat it all like a simple template.
Players aren't reading the statblock, so if you want to turn 4,000gp of treasure into a stat-booster, just do the basics. Dex +1 to AC, ranged and Dex. Str +1 to hit and damage. Don't sweat that they might be using a two-handed weapon and might be hitting an even modifier. Just average things out.
Another thing I do for challenge's sake is equip consumables and assume they're used. A small amount of treasure has already been burned in potions or scrolls. Yes, that (slightly) reduces the treasure while (slightly) increasing the challenge, but I keep track of wealth-by-level and make sure it all works out by the time the PCs level up. (Incidentally, this makes it easy to slip extra encounters into an AP.)
I rarely don't give monsters equipment based on their CR and treasure. Out of curiosity, with the OP example of the ogre mage, do you think equipped with the magic gear it is still a CR 8? If that was the intent of the designers, or something GMs should account for on their own?
All of my NPCs use equipment that is consistent with their wealth level. If an NPC bandit has enough gold for a magic bow, they'll have a magic bow. Or they'll have potions, which they might well USE if given a chance.
I do my best to play my NPCs as if they are reasonably intelligent and would rather have useful stuff than pockets full of jangly gold.
I'm the same way, especially with cultures that wouldn't care about gold.
When I introduced this into my monster builds, I also introduced my players to Ashiels adventure guide you mentioned. The monsters got more deadly, and the players became more capable. It was more then a net zero though, because the game achieved more verisimilitude, and a more cautious, tactical play style emerged which in turn deepened immersion.
Which doesn't always work for some groups and particularly individual players. Myself wouldn't mind as I like the tactical aspects almost as much as the storytelling. But many players don't care for it and more don't have the capacity for that kind of thinking and are more or less just there to roll dice, eat cheetos, and gawk at the dryad in the bestiary after about six beers. So yes it might seem more real and immersive to have that kind of game and it can be downright silly for it to be otherwise but there is an argument for it.
So again, caution needs to be said, your group might not care for it or even if they don't mind you need to take care not to tip the balance too far in the monsters favor while giving nothing to the pc's in return.
Honestly, the game is pretty easy. I've seen more then a few threads from new GM's asking why the PC's keep steam rolling through encounters when they carefully adhere to the CR system.
AP's, PFS scenarios, both pretty frakkin easy.
AP's, PFS scenarios, both pretty frakkin easy.
There are plenty of dead characters who would disagree with you on that account.
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I like your thinking on the dragon horde Ashiel but I will ask are you counting the traps as having their own treasure or their total value in construction?
I was counting the magic traps as an encounter. I'm not 100% sure about Pathfinder, but in 3.x traps were considered an encounter of sorts, and they have challenge ratings, and can be included in combats and tense situations just as a monster can (for example, a CR 1 pit trap plus 4 CR 1/4 kobolds is a CR 3 encounter). In general when building treasure values for your adventures, you would take the encounters that didn't award treasure and pile appropriate treasure somewhere else.
In a way, we're doing it backwards (we are placing treasure based on the number of traps/obstacles), but when you turn it around it makes perfect sense (you have more traps/obstacles guarding larger amounts of treasure). I suppose if your PCs are going to somehow be able to acquire said traps as treasure, you might count their cost against their treasure values, but honestly lots of traps are probably made to be stationary unless you break them. O.o
This is one of my favorite things I've learned from Ashiel. I just hadn't thought about it before. It takes a little more prep, and my players were shocked at first, but I'm never going back. It keeps things a lot more surprising. Also, consumables get used up during combat so sometimes a player will be like "kill that adept quick I really want that wand of scorching ray while it has some charges left!"
Hah, glad to hear it! I feel it also causes people to think a little more about things before they rush headlong into an encounter. For example, can your party's rogue under the cover of invisibility filch all the wands and such from your enemies before you ambush them? Better yet, wouldn't you prefer ambushing them, so as to try and loot as much usable equipment before they have a chance to use it on you? :D
Overall I think the CR system has started working a lot better for me since I started doing this.
This makes me smile great big smiles. (^___^)
When I introduced this into my monster builds, I also introduced my players to Ashiels adventure guide you mentioned. The monsters got more deadly, and the players became more capable. It was more then a net zero though, because the game achieved more verisimilitude, and a more cautious, tactical play style emerged which in turn deepened immersion.
(^_________________________________________^)
This being said caution absolutely needs to be given about equipment and monsters borderlining their CR's as is. I find it ironic that this is being written by the same person who wrote a rather concise guide on how to get more mileage out of low budget potions and mundane items as that is precisely the kind of thing that tips CR's way out of line.
Orcs with falchions are already pretty damn fierce. Orcs each with a potion of enlarge person (well within their encounter budget) is a nightmare encounter. While you make a point about verisimilitude this needs to come with a warning label for a gm to carefully consider what they are doing exactly before they're being sacrificed on a black altar by highly annoyed players.
Sounds like another Monday at the game table to me, actually. :P
Like, no joke. During one of my online games, I was running a 1st-20th game with the sole intention of running a 20th level dungeon I had been working on; except that the players in that online community wouldn't have been able to hack it. One of the players had a 20th level ranger, and whined because one of the online GMs used a flying enemy, and how his 20th level Ranger had no ways of dealing with flying enemies. In short, they were hopeless. All of them believed themselves to be the great optimizers, and most had builds that each of them considered broken for one reason or another. I looked upon their ranks and realized...there was no way in hell these guys would make it through a real dungeon.And so a quest (for me) was born. I explained a few bits about how I wanted to run a 20th level dungeon, and they were all excited, but I told them that I didn't believe the average skill of the community would be up to it (I didn't name any names), so that I was going to be running a mini-campaign to take some 1st level PCs up to 20th, that would culminate with the dungeon at the end. And so, the players made some PCs, and set out with an archealogist team to head towards the ancient ruin where the dungeon was. Over the journey there, they would come across quite a few villages and cities where they could get new supplies (and offer tons of side quests).
Over the course of this adventure, they met exploding goblins. Burrowing giant centipedes. Orc slavers. Misguided clerics. Ferocious monsters. More and more did they find, and each encounter was perhaps more harrowing than the last. In fact, the encounter with the orc slavers is almost identical to what you describe. Picture this if you will.
Low-level characters, in a group about 8 players strong. They are attacked in a forest by an epic encounter of orcs, with 1 adept for every 3 warriors. The orcs were wielding glaives, nets, and armed with "Gruumsh piss" or in layman's terms: potions of enlarge person crafted by the village shamans. The adepts were busily casting spells like bless and occasionally sleep on the party. The party was so scared that they thought I must have planned for the party to get captured or something. Just another day as an adventurer though.
Mind you, they all made it through the encounter without losing a single person. The encounter turned out exactly as planned for an epic encounter. They learned from that encounter to not dive right into battle against all odds. Don't play into your enemy's hands. If you enemy is bigger, stronger, and scarier than you in melee, take advantage of the fact that they are now bigger, scarier, and about as easy to hit as a barn. PCs move around trees and cover, ducked under wagons, teamed up to take down the giant orcs, and shot the adepts who were healing the fallen orcs.
I rarely don't give monsters equipment based on their CR and treasure. Out of curiosity, with the OP example of the ogre mage, do you think equipped with the magic gear it is still a CR 8? If that was the intent of the designers, or something GMs should account for on their own?
I believe that if you are staying within the lines of the monster's treasure values, then the CR really should not change. In the case of the ogre mage, I do not think that his CR should change. He wasn't changed enough to warrant an increase in experience points. He's just using the treasure that he has. The reward for the difficulty is the treasure itself.
There are some exceptions. I do not think it would be fair to slap a candle of invocation on a middle-low level monster and have the monster gate in a CR 17 creature. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, nor is it much fun. That being said, I wouldn't mind if a 3rd level wizard cast a scroll of summon monster III and then ran for the hills. It's a difference between "warm" and "surface of the sun" in terms of extremes. That's where I think GM judgment comes in a bit.
There are plenty of dead characters who would disagree with you on that account.
AP's, PFS scenarios, both pretty frakkin easy.
Yeah I probably don't have enough experience with either to say that, just a handful of sessions.
But I did get bored. I'm interested in challenges that force tricky, resourceful play, and some situations you have to run away from or deal with out of combat.
Whether those things happen a lot in AP's and PFS, I shouldn't be so fast to assume. I just haven't run into them myself. It certainly felt that there was enough room for an Orc to drink a potion here or there without making encounters frustratingly impossible.
When I introduced this into my monster builds, I also introduced my players to Ashiels adventure guide you mentioned. The monsters got more deadly, and the players became more capable. It was more then a net zero though, because the game achieved more verisimilitude, and a more cautious, tactical play style emerged which in turn deepened immersion.Which doesn't always work for some groups and particularly individual players. Myself wouldn't mind as I like the tactical aspects almost as much as the storytelling. But many players don't care for it and more don't have the capacity for that kind of thinking and are more or less just there to roll dice, eat cheetos, and gawk at the dryad in the bestiary after about six beers. So yes it might seem more real and immersive to have that kind of game and it can be downright silly for it to be otherwise but there is an argument for it.
So again, caution needs to be said, your group might not care for it or even if they don't mind you need to take care not to tip the balance too far in the monsters favor while giving nothing to the pc's in return.
For those types of players, I'd definitely say "Know your audience". If your players aren't up for tactical games, simply don't use tactical monsters. You can have great fun and adventures fighting monsters and enemies who are stupid, and it can make for quite the adventure. A journey to the land of the lost, with dinosaurs, giant vermin, oversized apes, and piles of treasure hidden throughout the island by pirates years ago would make for a great adventure where the most advanced tactics you'll come across are pack-tactics on creatures like dire wolves and megaraptors.
Though I personally believe that doing things like having sentient intelligent creatures act in ways bordering on suicidal cheapens the whole experience, so I'm probably biased in that sense. I would just make sure that the encounters were far beneath the PC's levels and let the tactical aspects make up the difference. I mean, I could keep CR 1/4 kobolds terrifying up through about 8th level without much trouble, so there's no real need to bring in higher CR enemies who are also tactical. That way the PCs' levels can make up the difference.
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I totally give out gear as appropriate...though appropriate gear isn't always the Big 6 Items a PC would have.
Sometimes it's a great deal more focused than that (a Headband of Charisma and some pretty jewelery as a Succubus's only treasure, for example), and often it's at least partially useless in combat (such as the pretty jewelery mentioned previously), and I often focus it on the 'boss' of whatever adventure there is (which has the several advantages of making said boss more hardcore, allowing it to be focused into items of real worth, and makng a lot of sense thematically), but I always make sure that which is useful gets used by someone.
There are plenty of dead characters who would disagree with you on that account.
AP's, PFS scenarios, both pretty frakkin easy.Yeah I probably don't have enough experience with either to say that, just a handful of sessions.
But I did get bored. I'm interested in challenges that force tricky, resourceful play, and some situations you have to run away from or deal with out of combat.
Whether those things happen a lot in AP's and PFS, I shouldn't be so fast to assume. I just haven't run into them myself. It certainly felt that there was enough room for an Orc to drink a potion here or there without making encounters frustratingly impossible.
For the most part, my experience with APs is much the same. However, from what I've noticed is that -- theoretically -- it's either drought or flood. When I was GMing (or playing) in Curse of the Crimson Throne, it was a great story and fun setup, but the enemies were woefully boring. I'm pretty sure most of my group probably could have soloed the first "dungeon" (actually a dock house of sorts), since not only were the enemies not tactical at all but were also pretty frail. For the record, my group plays 15 PB.
When it came around time that I got to play in CotCT, the GM (who was an online friend of mine) asked me to have a look at the enemies and tune up the encounters a bit, so I did (he knows I'm good about not metagaming and I wouldn't tailor encounters to suit my character). The encounters were a bit more interesting.
That being said, I've heard that in some adventure paths there are encounters that are really really bad. For example, there's an AP that has a Shadow Demon that apparently comes up out of no-where without much if any warning in the story. Shadow Demons are already pretty gross for their CR (even I think they're inordinately hard to deal with, and unless you're perfectly geared for it, they can be TPK machines), so that's an example of a flood.
I usually prefer a happy medium for most of the time. :)
I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.
A shadow demon gateing in to stomp an unaware party isn't exactly the kind of challenging I'm looking for either though, you know? Hopefully they at least foreshadow the encounter, no pun intended.
Well, I don't exactly agree with everything I've seen you say...
However, this topic - your entire rant - makes sense. It DOES seem rather lazy logic at best, at least in most instances.
One exception I take is the dragon. A dragon is known for its hoard, and is known to obsess over said hoard to the point of OCD, so I'd almost expect it to literally sit on that gold pile (which, actually, is pretty small if you account for volume!). It'd be like expecting Austin Powers not to make a pass at a lady or a corny joke at just about anyone. A marilith, though, is definitely going to arm itself.
...no pun intended.
Actually, dragons like coins. They don't actually have to be gold. In the CR 14 dragon horde I mentioned before, there was over 180,000 gp worth of treasure for the entire dragon lair adventure. Even taking out the dragon's own 45,000 gp (which is likely the stuff it's wearing, like magic rings, amulets, and other size-changing wondrous items, wands, and so forth), that's still 135,000 gp worth of treasure.
So our dragon needs a nice fat bed of coins, right? How common are most coins? Copper = Most common, Silver = second most common, gold = mostly used by wealthy/adventurer types, Platinum = rarest of coins.
So let's take, say, 50,000 gp and conver it into copper pieces. That's 5,000,000 copper coins or 100,000 pounds of copper coins (50 tons of copper coins). Then let's take 25,000 gp and convert it into silver pieces 250,000 silver pieces (2.5 tons of silver coins). Now 12,500 gold pieces is 250 pounds of gold coins scattered around the room (that's like a fully grown slightly obese man worth of coins). Then 625 platinum coins or 12.5 pounds of platinum coins arranged on the dragon's wall as a self-portrait in platinum.
That leaves 41,250 gp to litter the horde with some magic items, art objects, and other sweet stuff.
EDIT: Let's also not forget that dragons have Use Magic Device as a class skill, and typically have it maxed. So dragons are going to use a lot of stuff that might be surprising. Fighting a dragon in its lair would be a scary thing indeed, 'cause if it needs to, it might actually grab that +2 cold iron longsword that the last foolish Paladin to come through had, and suddenly he banks an epically difficult UMD check and suddenly it's a +5 holy avenger that the dragon uses to spam dispel magic at the party in between fire breaths. :P
I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.
I think Ashiel has the right of it. They are definitely drought and flood. Xanesha was basically like having the ocean dumped on your head.
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I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.
A shadow demon gateing in to stomp an unaware party isn't exactly the kind of challenging I'm looking for either though, you know? Hopefully they at least foreshadow the encounter, no pun intended.
I had a Paladin who ended a battle with a Lamia at 2 Wisdom. I roleplayed it as her head being filled with haunting ghosts from her past, and a sort of mild insanity. Something was broken up there. While in that condition, she was prone to spouting strange things, going in and out of apparent awareness, and then sudden moments of perfect clarity.
At one point, they were climbing down a ladder, and she tugged on the leash gently and looked at it, and commented "Y'know, this would be very demeaning if I wasn't insane" out of the blue. Everyone turned to look at her seemingly cured, for she spoke with such clarity of mind, only to find her chewing on the rope and giving them a blank stare.
Later after she was healed, she tapped the other PC with the collar and thanked him for his concern. Despite her appearance, the lights were on inside her head the whole time, and she appreciated the fact he was trying to keep her out of trouble. She even promised to let him put the collar on her again later.
I'll go along with Adamantine Dragon; I don't mind outfitting my NPCs with reasonable and sensible gear.
That band of orcs the PC's are sent to deal with might be a small band of stupid orcs straight from the Bestiary, or they might be a highly organized warband led by a 7th level Cavalier chieftan, who's outfitted his troops with chainmail and taught them squad tactics.
I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.
A shadow demon gateing in to stomp an unaware party isn't exactly the kind of challenging I'm looking for either though, you know? Hopefully they at least foreshadow the encounter, no pun intended.
Agreed. I too prefer a happy medium. I'd rather stuff be challenging because it's challenging. Not because it's basically a near no-win situation due to brute force. Also, when I say brute force, I don't mean orcs with potions of enlarge person, or even ogres with potions of enlarge person, I mean like enemies who have immunity to the party. :P
I once ran a 1st level adventure where the party encountered a Shadow (yes the CR 3 incorporeal TPK death machines we all know and love). Some of the players were like:
P1: "Holy s+!+, it's a shadow!"
P2: "Really!? We're 1st level. Is that even possible, or not heinously evil in any sense of the word!?".
GM: "Yes to the first question, no to the second."
P3: "Uh, maybe we should run guys..."
P4: "Hah, you guys go, I'll hold it off!" *melee takes total defense*
P1/2/3: "Uh...sure..." *grabs the kid they were rescuing and run off*
Shadow: *attempts to slap the melee and misses*
P4: "Hah, see! I told you! Okay, now seriously, I think it's time to get gone. I leap out the window."
GM: "It's a 10 ft. drop. You cool with that?"
P4: "Yeah, he'll never see it coming." *crash through the window*
GM: "The shadow does not immediately follow you, but is clearly watching each of you from the windows of the old house as you each vacate the premises."
P1: "That explains the weird corpses we found..."
P2: "But...doesn't that mean there are more shadows?"
P3: "Um, then where were the rest of them?"
P1/2/3/4: *Paranoid face* (0~0)
I did include some potions of magic weapon in some treasure they found earlier in the adventure, so they probably could have killed it without anyway (if they had been packing holy water, it might have been running from them instead :P).
Later after she was healed, she tapped the other PC with the collar and thanked him for his concern. Despite her appearance, the lights were on inside her head the whole time, and she appreciated the fact he was trying to keep her out of trouble. She even promised to let him put the collar on her again later.
Oh my.
Exactly... Sometimes you just jump out the damn window...
Also, it's perfect that those magic weapon pots are there.
That has made for some of the funnest times in DnD for me. Hero's run into something that should be out of their league, and then remember something they found, or something in the environment they can use to their advantage.
Later after she was healed, she tapped the other PC with the collar and thanked him for his concern. Despite her appearance, the lights were on inside her head the whole time, and she appreciated the fact he was trying to keep her out of trouble. She even promised to let him put the collar on her again later.Oh my.
I favorited that whole post for the last sentence 8)
I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.I think Ashiel has the right of it. They are definitely drought and flood. Xanesha was basically like having the ocean dumped on your head.
Ah that makes me so tempted to read the chapter or stat block. I have the hardcover, but not sure yet if I'm running it or playing in it.
Later after she was healed, she tapped the other PC with the collar and thanked him for his concern. Despite her appearance, the lights were on inside her head the whole time, and she appreciated the fact he was trying to keep her out of trouble. She even promised to let him put the collar on her again later.Oh my.
She was a very fun character to play. XD
Something of a sultry witch-y Paladin, who acted very down to earth and had a way with people. I miss her sometimes. :)| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I totally give out gear as appropriate...though appropriate gear isn't always the Big 6 Items a PC would have.
Sometimes it's a great deal more focused than that (a Headband of Charisma and some pretty jewelery as a Succubus's only treasure, for example), and often it's at least partially useless in combat (such as the pretty jewelery mentioned previously), and I often focus it on the 'boss' of whatever adventure there is (which has the several advantages of making said boss more hardcore, allowing it to be focused into items of real worth, and makng a lot of sense thematically), but I always make sure that which is useful gets used by someone.
I can get behind that as well. It's admittedly a rarity that any of my NPCs wear big-six items. Most of them are more likely to be sporting fairly mundane gears plus a few potions or scrolls or something. I like that sort of setup because most NPCs aren't going to need or be able to afford expensive magic items, but cheap consumables is easy for them to afford. Plus it gives my players a nice pile of sell-able permanent items (like weapons, armor, and jewelry) plus some consumables to use as they find them (my players eyes still seem to light up when they find some healing potions).
P1: "Ooh-ooh, can I have the summon monster IV scroll!? :D"
P2: "Hm, ask the wizard if he needs it first."
P3: "Nah, go ahead. I can't cast 4th level spells yet, so it's no more use to me than it is to you. I'd be happy if you kept it as an emergency weapon anyway. That way I don't have to decide between casting or using the scroll."
P1: *squees with joy*
One thing I am very fond of slapping on NPCs is masterwork tools. You're allowed to purchase a 1 lb. tool that gives a +2 bonus to a chosen skill for 50 gp. There's enough freedom given that you can come up with some fun things for it. For example, my NPCs might wear masterwork cloaks that absorb light well, granting a +2 circumstance bonus to Stealth (or maybe padded boots). Masterwork tools are a pretty cool treasure to hand out, because they're light, valuable, have some use, and can easily be adapted to all sorts of things.
For example, you might include a 10 lb. set of books that costs about 500 gp, found in a wizard's library. What are they? Well they're 10 individual 1 lb. books that are used as a reference for various knowledge skills. Sweet bit of treasure. Even makes a great place to use stuff like random book name generators to give them titles. (^-^)
Ah that makes me so tempted to read the chapter or stat block. I have the hardcover, but not sure yet if I'm running it or playing in it.I hear the Lamiah Matriarch in Runelords is pretty gross. I think I'll find out soon, as a player or GM, not sure which.I think Ashiel has the right of it. They are definitely drought and flood. Xanesha was basically like having the ocean dumped on your head.
Completely unrelated to the original topic, she has been noticeably downgraded in the hardcover from the original.
I know she doesn't have flight any more which notably reduces her TPK factor, I haven't closely compared the other differences.
I always assumed it was normal for monsters to use the treasure on them. Its kind of silly to have the bad guy fighting you with a non magic short sword when theres a +1 greatsword in the chest hes protecting that he has the key for and owns.
The only time they might ever not use the treasure is If things were prepared in a hurry on the DMs par. When we play AP's most of the bad guys seem to be designed along the 'my treasure is there for my use' plan.
Well inso far as what ive seen as a player, but maybe this is the people i play with.
I think it's entirely appropriate for some monsters to be kitted out with magic gear, so long as the GM understands how that affects the CR of the creature and awards the party appropriately for the increased challenge.
I assume you mean gear above and beyond the treasure they would normally carry? If not I don't really agree.
The title of this thread made me think it was going to be completely different.
Fave'd and added to my "Advice" list. :)
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Ashiel we have had this discussion before. The monsters are assumed to be played as is. I even quoted the rules for it.
What makes sense and what the rules are, are two different things. Does it make sense for a monster to have its treasure in random rooms in his lair/dungeion/etc instead of having it with him so he can murdalize any invaders? Hell naw(not misspelled). Does it happen and is even suggested? Yes.
Do I give my baddies the chance to use their wealth to get better gear, and sometime just ignore the wealth they are supposed to have? Many times yes, but I normally get better than average players so I tend to ignore certain reccomendation such as what percentage of an NPC wealth should go to defense. I also admit that a CR 5 for my group, when I get to GM again, might be another group's CR 7.
Mojorat, Ashiel is speaking of using a monster's treasure to buy additional gear, not use what the book gives them.
I assume you mean gear above and beyond the treasure they would normally carry? If not I don't really agree.
If a CR 6 creature puts on gear and effectively becomes CR 8, the party then gets CR 8 experience. Loot is not always directly proportional to challenge, however. Some creatures give none, and some give triple, even for the same amount of danger to the PCs.