What if he just picks up the useful treasure he has and uses it?
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Then his CR goes up, if it affects combat abilities sufficiently.
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From another post
The creature statistics in the monster creation chapter are a first step, showing a completely naked creature before buffs or items.
Step 9: Treasure
A creature should have an amount of treasure appropriate to its CR. See Table: XP and GP Values by CR for a list of treasure totals based on CR. For some creatures, their treasure consists of the loot from their recent meals strewn across their lairs, while for others it consists of a greed-fueled hoard or even gear it uses in combat. Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
Step 7: Other StatisticsUsing Table: Monster Statistics by CR, Table: Creature Statistics by Type, and Table: Statistics Summary, you can now determine many of the creature's other statistics.
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average AC. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
Use Table: Average Die Results to determine the number of damage dice, combined with damage bonuses, that the creature needs to reach the average damage for its CR. The creature might need additional or more damaging attacks to approach the average. Remember that creatures that primarily deal damage with other abilities, such as spells, do not need to meet the average damage for their attacks. You can also use Table: Average Die Results to determine a creature's average hit points. Remember that PC class levels provide the maximum number of hit points at 1st level.
Repeat this process for a creature's saving throws. If the saving throws are too high, consider altering the ability scores on which they are based.
When determining a creature's speed, first decide if it has any alternative modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature's base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods.
As you can see the combination of step 7 and 9 means that all magical gear is to be accounted for in the stats.
By accounting for the magic items in step 7 you match the chart which step 9 is telling you to do.
If you look at the chart it matches many of the monsters in the book. There are instances where a monster is above or below the norm, but the additional strength or weakness is normally made up somewhere else.
Treasure: The exact value of the creature's treasure depends on if you're running a slow, medium, or fast game, as summarized on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. In cases where a creature has specific magical gear assigned to it, the assumption is a medium game—if you play a fast or slow game, you'll want to adjust the monster's gear as appropriate. “Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter. “Double” or “triple” treasure indicates the creature has double or triple this standard value. “Incidental” indicates the creature has half this standard value, and then only within the confines of its lair. “None” indicates that the creature normally has no treasure (as is typical for an unintelligent creature that has no real lair, although such creatures are often used to guard treasures of varying amounts). “NPC gear” indicates the monster has treasure as normal for an NPC of a level equal to the monster's CR.
When a monster has NPC gear it is then expect to use the wealth chart provided in the CRB to equip itself.
Yeah this is basically a copy and paste of another thread I made, but I see no need to reinvent the wheel.
You're quoting rules for monster creation right?
So basically they're reminding you to have the stat block reflect the gear that your creature defaults to.
The sentence you bolded in the "Step 9: Treasure" paragraph is just reminding you that any weapons or armor you have already assigned to the creature in Step 7 should count against this treasure budget.
Then his CR goes up, if it affects combat abilities sufficiently.
I haven't seen this written anywhere. I waited to reply until I had read wraithstrikes post, but I'm still not seeing that intent. I'll read over it a few more times though, it is quite a lot to take in, I could have missed something.
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I'm not saying what RAW says. I'm saying what I'd do. And if something makes an encounter more dangerous, it's a more dangerous encounter and deserves a higher CR.
I'm not going to game the system and try to antagonise the players by packing as much power as possible into a low CR.
Excellent post, with lots to think about. I usually try to keep treasure as random seeming as possible, and determine what they would have on them/in a stash before an encounter. If every creature is outfitted like a PC, the game world begins to seem sort of strange. I do like the idea of spending a few extra minutes before each session thinking about what a creature would actually have, rather than just doing it on the fly, aka
It would make sense if satyrs invested in expensive food and wine, hobgoblins use well-maintained masterwork weapons & armor, and Djinni carried a variety of wands and scrolls.
However, I do not think that the creatures in the bestiary are balanced with magic items in mind, because their statistics do not reflect those additions. Most monsters attack values, for example, can be broken down by Strength, BAB(determined by HD and type), feats, etc. If a Kyton was meant to have magically enhanced chains, it's Attack would be +12, rather than +11(+8 for HD, +2 for Str, +1 for WF). Adding a magic enhancement adds +1 to attack and damage, possibly making the encounter harder than CR6. Same with your Ogre Mage. In the creature creation section, pretty clear guidelines are set on how to approach the art and science of deriving creature statistics. Following these guidelines, an increase of even 1 or 2 in Attack Bonus would in some cases result in an increase in CR. With this in mind, you would need to constantly adjust the CR of your encounters to reflect the increased difficulty.
Actually it is saying that the treasure is added you should get a number close to what is in the charts. That is why it says to "give it a tougher hide" aka higher natural armor bonus, so that it meets the chart.
Last time I used a ghaele as an example of an equipped stock monster that met the chart's standards. Without its treasure it would not have met the chart's recommendations.
That example also follow steps 7 and 9. Now after some discussion we found out the a creatively used ghaele might be a CR or 2 too low, but if numbers-wise it fits.
Then his CR goes up, if it affects combat abilities sufficiently.I haven't seen this written anywhere. I waited to reply until I had read wraithstrikes post, but I'm still not seeing that intent. I'll read over it a few more times though, it is quite a lot to take in, I could have missed something.
CR assumes certain numbers are in play, and it is not an exact science. There are ways to game it. As an example sticking armor on a monster with natural armor can make it very hard to hit. There is an NPC in Age of Worms. I used his treasure to buy him full-plate. That is +9 AC. I then decided the party might die, so I dialed it back. By the rules his CR was still the same, but in practice it was not. Even back in 3.5 it was known that giving non-associated class levels to bad guys would allow GM's to game the CR system.
In short what is a CR 9 by the book is not a CR 9 in practice.
stuff about monster creation:From another post
The creature statistics in the monster creation chapter are a first step, showing a completely naked creature before buffs or items.Step 9: Treasure
A creature should have an amount of treasure appropriate to its CR. See Table: XP and GP Values by CR for a list of treasure totals based on CR. For some creatures, their treasure consists of the loot from their recent meals strewn across their lairs, while for others it consists of a greed-fueled hoard or even gear it uses in combat. Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
...
Step 7: Other StatisticsUsing Table: Monster Statistics by CR, Table: Creature Statistics by Type, and Table: Statistics Summary, you can now determine many of the creature's other statistics.
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average AC. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
Use Table: Average Die Results to determine the number of damage dice, combined with damage bonuses, that the
Right...but what Ashiel is talking about is adding this magical gear in addition to the normal stats of a monster. We're not talking about calculating a homemade monster's stats with magical equipment taken into account, or even adding some magical equipment and adjusting stats down to compensate. At least to me, it seems like Ashiel is talking about slapping on a bunch of bells and whistles to a monster, but saying that it will be exactly as difficult because somehow the amount of treasure it should have is to be used for equipment. Her support for it is that the PCs had to exercise extreme creativity and masterful use of tactics, as well I'm sure as a bit of luck, to defeat some low level encounters that she buffed up with powerful items. Yet, the PCs were only given the normal award, even though the encounter was probably a couple CR higher.
We have a creature, we have its stats.
We know that the creature has some treasure.
We know that some of the treasure is useful.
We all agree up to this point.
The debate is wether or not that creature would pick up its own useful treasure and use it right?
I say yes it usually would.
...** spoiler omitted **
I understand. My point was that the monsters in the book match the monster creation chart so the numbers in the chart are the standard. When you start adding items to monsters you take them beyond what their intended CR is. Ashiel is saying that you should improved upon the stock monster with magic items, and that even if its AC goes up by 4, it attack bonus goes up by five, it saves go up by 3, and it gets an extra attacks because you gave it a potion of haste, that it is still the same CR.
We have a creature, we have its stats.
We know that the creature has some treasure.
We know that some of the treasure is useful.
We all agree up to this point.
The debate is wether or not that creature would pick up its own useful treasure and use it right?
I say yes it usually would.
The debate is whether or not the monster is intended to be assigned useful treasure, use it, and still keep the same CR. Of course a giant with a weapon as written in the book will use that sword, but does it also suddenly have a cloak of resistance to shore up that weak will save, and potion of magic vestment to make it hard to hit, or just armor that was not assigned to it, assuming it's AC is pretty much natural armor?
I think those things make the monster noticeably more difficult, and since CR=difficulty rating, I don't see the justification behind-->extra stuff does not matter.
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The recent examples of monster treasure generated by Jason for Ultimate Equipment shows a mix of non-magic gear, magic gear used by creatures and magic gear not used by creatures. So it can go any way, and it's DM's job to make sure that any creatures overloaded with used magic gear to the point of boosting their CR will be handled appropriately.
Example: Karzoug in the original RotRL, where the book specifically calls that his gear is so powerful that it bumps his CR over what a "normal" character would have.
there is nothing wrong with a monster actually using it's wealth to acquire equipment. it raises a creatures attributes, but not meaningfully enough to impact it's CR. in fact, messing around with a monsters selected (but not racial freebie) feats and skill points is legal as well. makes creatures more challenging. same with fixing a creatures known or prepared spells, and utilizing hours per level buffs every specified interval.
doing this reduces the issue where a monster dies in 1 round without ever getting a chance to deal damage. playing monsters to their strengths also doesn't impact their CR sufficiently either. hell, don't even use wide open spaces all the time. try other forms of terrain.
it reduces the overfocus on one trick pony builds such as falchion fighters, AM BARBARIAN, Crossblooded admixture evoker blasters, SOS slumber witches, and gnomish heavens oracles.
encouraging tactics by using a monster to their strengths makes PCs have to take a secondary shtick or weapon. it also encourages martials to invest in intellegence or wizards to not neglect strength.
Ok but didn't karzoug also have something like PC level wealth? I remember James Jacobs saying BBEG in AP's usually do. If so, that is very different than raising the CR just because the creature was using gear from its standard treasure.
I'm more of use them right out of the book for speed type. Maybe throw in a small monetary reward if appropriate.
Only important mobs get a few goodies. Even then I scarcely load them up to the full potential. Frankly I like to keep a tight reign on magical goods that get into the hands of my PCs, so I keep them out of the mobs and NPC's hands as well.
We have a creature, we have its stats.
We know that the creature has some treasure.
We know that some of the treasure is useful.
We all agree up to this point.
The debate is wether or not that creature would pick up its own useful treasure and use it right?
I say yes it usually would.The debate is whether or not the monster is intended to be assigned useful treasure, use it, and still keep the same CR. Of course a giant with a weapon as written in the book will use that sword, but does it also suddenly have a cloak of resistance to shore up that weak will save, and potion of magic vestment to make it hard to hit, or just armor that was not assigned to it, assuming it's AC is pretty much natural armor?
I think those things make the monster noticeably more difficult, and since CR=difficulty rating, I don't see the justification behind-->extra stuff does not matter.
I guess the flip side of this could be something like this.
Suppose you have a group who has always equipped their monsters with the useful items in its treasure horde. This group might ask "why didn't you lower the giants CR since it didn't use a cloak of resistance to shore up its will save? There was a potion of magic vestment sitting in its treasure horde, why didn't he drink it? Those things make the monster noticeably less difficult, and since CR = difficulty rating, you should recalculate the CR for this giant who doesn't use his own useful treasure."|
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Ok but didn't karzoug also have something like PC level wealth? I remember James Jacobs saying BBEG in AP's usually do. If so, that is very different than raising the CR just because the creature was using gear from its standard treasure.
He had artifacts on him. You can't even WBL them, for obvious reasons.
Other Paizo BBEGs are within WBL. Actually, you would be surprised how closely do Paizo adventures follow the WBL guidelines.
Yeah but aren't they within PC WBL sometimes, not NPC? I can see that justifying a CR bump for sure.
Ok but didn't karzoug also have something like PC level wealth? I remember James Jacobs saying BBEG in AP's usually do. If so, that is very different than raising the CR just because the creature was using gear from its standard treasure.
The issue is that monsters without treasure are usually equal to NPC's(humanoids) with treasure. The stock monsters are assumed to be played as is. That is why the stats match the monster creation chart. It is not assumed that additional gear beyond what is in the statblock will be used. That is why monsters treasure if often strewn throughout the lair*. Those baddies with PC wealth are usually humanoid NPC's. I have never seen a monster(non-humanoid) with PC wealth.
*When you find treasure in a chest it is assumed to be a part of a monster's hoard. I am not saying the monster owns it, but the idea is that for each monster you should get X amount of treasure. That fact that the monster is the reason the GM put the treasure in the game is a metagame aspect. That is why the monster may never have access to it.
We have a creature, we have its stats.
We know that the creature has some treasure.
We know that some of the treasure is useful.
We all agree up to this point.
The debate is wether or not that creature would pick up its own useful treasure and use it right?
I say yes it usually would.The debate is whether or not the monster is intended to be assigned useful treasure, use it, and still keep the same CR. Of course a giant with a weapon as written in the book will use that sword, but does it also suddenly have a cloak of resistance to shore up that weak will save, and potion of magic vestment to make it hard to hit, or just armor that was not assigned to it, assuming it's AC is pretty much natural armor?
I think those things make the monster noticeably more difficult, and since CR=difficulty rating, I don't see the justification behind-->extra stuff does not matter.
I guess the flip side of this could be something like this.
Suppose you have a group who has always equipped their monsters with the useful items in its treasure horde. This group might ask "why didn't you lower the giants CR since it didn't use a cloak of resistance to shore up its will save? There was a potion of magic vestment sitting in its treasure horde, why didn't he drink it? Those things make the monster noticeably less difficult, and since CR = difficulty rating, you should recalculate the CR for this giant who doesn't use his own useful treasure."
You give then the metagame answer. The rules dont intend for him to have it, and if I had equipped him then you would all be dead.
Another metagame answer is that giants hit hard for their CR. To make up for it they have a weakness somewhere else. An example of this is the Rakshasa. It has high SR, and it has DR, but its offense sucks.I would also tell them that the CR is for the monster "as is" so no reduction in CR is needed. I, as a GM, would also never put things directly on a monster that I did not intend for it to use. My previous post goes into having items strewn about.
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But Gorbacz just pointed out that the recent treasure examples Jason put up from ultimate equipment show some of the treasure as useful gear the creature will use.
Any baddy that had PC level wealth would warrant a CR bump in my eyes, monstrous or humanoid, it makes no difference to me.
But equipping an ordinary creature with the useful items it has that are within it's standard treasure value for its CR, seems like something more akin to the difficulty bump you run into when you get a DM that runs monsters with good tactics. It might seem much harder then what you expect if your old DM was a slouch, but does that mean the CR goes up? Probably only if there was some tough environmental features that gave the monsters an advantage.
Along those same lines, I could see raising the CR if a monster had his whole treasure budget spent on consumables to nova with, or items the party couldn't use, like giant sized magic armor. That would be rediculous to do with every creature.
I did see that you went in to having things strewn about, I was just using the term treasure horde to refer to all of it's treasure wherever it may be, for convenience.
I think we both agree the CR rating is for the monster "as is" but we mean different things by "as is".
I would say that the useful items in the treasure horde are still part of the creature, "as is". They are mentioned right there in the stat block under Treasure: Standard. Or double or NPC Gear, or double or whatever.
One thing to note is that the person suggesting that using wealth to upgrade monster statblocks is the person who advocates using the magic item pricing guidelines with very few caveats. When you can get many defensive buffs in an always on state from items upgrading enemies is less of an issue. For a party with no non-Paizo items things would probably be dicier.
I think Ashiel is doing something that breaks WBL while also doing something that breaks CR and they happen to come out alright, but if she were only doing one or the other it would be a disaster.
Exactly what are these "always on defense buffs" you speak of? Grimmy himself noted that CR seems to work better after following my advice.
Right...but what Ashiel is talking about is adding this magical gear in addition to the normal stats of a monster. We're not talking about calculating a homemade monster's stats with magical equipment taken into account, or even adding some magical equipment and adjusting stats down to compensate. At least to me, it seems like Ashiel is talking about slapping on a bunch of bells and whistles to a monster, but saying that it will be exactly as difficult because somehow the amount of treasure it should have is to be used for equipment. Her support for it is that the PCs had to exercise extreme creativity and masterful use of tactics, as well I'm sure as a bit of luck, to defeat some low level encounters that she buffed up with powerful items. Yet, the PCs were only given the normal award, even though the encounter was probably a couple CR higher.
Actually, I talked about the PCs using tactics to overcome an epic CR encounter (it was the only encounter they were expected to face that day). That is, APL+3 CR encounter. It had nothing to do with equipment, but it does demonstrate that even outnumbered and with orcs using potions, it was only so deadly if they played to the orcs' strengths.
It would be appreciated if you didn't twist stuff. Thanks. :)
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Yeah I can vouch for that wholeheartedly, and this was not a group playing with any kind of OP custom magic items if that's what's being suggested.
All that happened was that encounters became surprising and challenging enough to get people to stop playing with their iPods and start cheering for good rolls again, because there was something hanging in the balance, like it's supposed to be.
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Yeah I can vouch for that wholeheartedly, and this was not a group playing with any kind of OP custom magic items if that's what's being suggested.
All that happened was that encounters became surprising and challenging enough to get people to stop playing with their iPods and start cheering for good rolls again, because there was something hanging in the balance, like it's supposed to be.
Trick question: how did the assumed CR relate to APL in those encounters?
It was over the course of 3 levels of adventuring so far, with the same spread of encounter difficulties I would normally use, ranging from easy to epic.
But Gorbacz just pointed out that the recent treasure examples Jason put up from ultimate equipment show some of the treasure as useful gear the creature will use.
Any baddy that had PC level wealth would warrant a CR bump in my eyes, monstrous or humanoid, it makes no difference to me.
But equipping an ordinary creature with the useful items it has that are within it's standard treasure value for its CR, seems like something more akin to the difficulty bump you run into when you get a DM that runs monsters with good tactics. It might seem much harder then what you expect if your old DM was a slouch, but does that mean the CR goes up? Probably only if there was some tough environmental features that gave the monsters an advantage.
Along those same lines, I could see raising the CR if a monster had his whole treasure budget spent on consumables to nova with, or items the party couldn't use, like giant sized magic armor. That would be rediculous to do with every creature.
CR does not take GM tactics into account. It does take numbers into account. There is no way to account for every GM, but you can account for numbers.
Saying it has useful gear is not enough. The issue is how much does that gear help the monster. Did any of the gear in Gorby's example make the monster significantly more difficult?
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I did see that you went in to having things strewn about, I was just using the term treasure horde to refer to all of it's treasure wherever it may be, for convenience.
I think we both agree the CR rating is for the monster "as is" but we mean different things by "as is".
I would say that the useful items in the treasure horde are still part of the creature, "as is". They are mentioned right there in the stat block under Treasure: Standard. Or double or NPC Gear, or double or whatever.
This! So much this! That's my point. When a creature's entry says "Treasure Standard", that is just a much a feature of that creature as "8HD" or "BAB +3". It shows how much treasure the creature has, and they will use any of it that is usable.
This isn't a matter of boosting CRs. This is a matter of CRs just being CRs. If a GM is intentionally dumbing down his monsters, or unintentionally, such as when he forgets to activate spell-buffs on his monsters (Pit Fiends have Unholy Aura at-will, so there is literally no reason for it not to be active every waking minute).
Now the only thing I've seen that suggests equipment = +CR is in the Gamemastering section where it notes NPCs who have PC WBL get +1 CR. Yep. You heard me. Only +1. The only way that Ogre Magi would be CR 9 would be if the fool was decked out in 8th level PC gear. That would go from having a treasure value of just a little above 5,000 gp, to 33,000 gp. Yowza!
Now THAT would increase CR. Forget a +1 weapon, a +1 ring, and a +1 cloak. Ogre Boy is going to be decked out. We're talking awesome magic items, rings, potions, wands, scrolls, whatever he needs. In fact, he probably will have the perfect tool for the job in most cases if he's smart about it. With that sort of cash, the ol' boy might just use that Use Magic Device skill he has, turn invisible, fly around, and just spam Summon Monster III from a wand every round on the round (normally he'd never be able to afford a fully-charged wand to spam like that). Or he could get entirely different stuff that was awesome, like rings of resistance (fire and acid seem good, since those mess with his regeneration).
+1 CR? Absolutely.
Standard treasure value for the creature giving it a +1 CR? Hell no.
If you have enough time and energy to equip every "monster" individually then that's great. I don't. I do use the stats direct from the Bestiary. I also enjoy the wandering monster charts in PF AP's as they give local flavour and an idea of the flora and fauna of a particular area. Most wandering creatures don't carry much with them, so that also saves me time working out treasure.
I also don't adhere to WBL, especially when running AP's. They seem to have about the right amount of reward without adding anything for extra/random encounters. As many people have stated AP difficulty levels are a little weak for tactical/thoughtful players, so a little cash starvation tends to add to the drama.
Unless I've missed it, perfectly possible, nobody seems to have asked where monstrous, albeit intelligent, creatures are supposed to shop for their magic armour, weapons and scrolls. If they make them or have workshops that make magic items for them then enterprising player may choose to track back to this base, thereby making the GM stat out a whole area and equip the NPC's therein ( not to mention theWBL implications.)
Or do you decide that they found the items and are now utilising them? In which case you know the random chance of finding exactly the right gear, in the right size? Just think back to the last time you went clothes shopping, and those guys are supposed to stock everything you want . The chances of a group of creatures randomly finding the same gear is slight, so do you stat every single creature in every single encounter individually? Or did they target people equipped with the items they need? A difficult task considering that the prey would be using the items in defence. Would these battles then up the creatures own XP? (which could be used as an excuse to up the CR on well equipped monsters).
These are all questions which deserve some thought and time to implement, and if you have that amount of time and energy, while juggling RL concerns and taxes, then great. However I would ask that you keep in mind that some people don't. Try not to dismiss entirely those folk who see the entry "2d6 Centaurs Bestiary 42" and then just turn to the page.
I did see that you went in to having things strewn about, I was just using the term treasure horde to refer to all of it's treasure wherever it may be, for convenience.
I think we both agree the CR rating is for the monster "as is" but we mean different things by "as is".
I would say that the useful items in the treasure horde are still part of the creature, "as is". They are mentioned right there in the stat block under Treasure: Standard. Or double or NPC Gear, or double or whatever.
So the Ghaele gets another 30000+ to spend in addition to its sword which is already valued at 32000?
It was over the course of 3 levels of adventuring so far, with the same spread of encounter difficulties I would normally use, ranging from easy to epic.
What point buy do the players use, and what books do they have access to? The game assumes 15 point buy and average players. The more you deviate from that towards optimal players the less challenging a monster will be. That is why I said in an earlier post that a typical challenge for most groups I have run for will be difficult for other players, mostly those who played under easier GM's.
But Gorbacz just pointed out that the recent treasure examples Jason put up from ultimate equipment show some of the treasure as useful gear the creature will use.
Any baddy that had PC level wealth would warrant a CR bump in my eyes, monstrous or humanoid, it makes no difference to me.
But equipping an ordinary creature with the useful items it has that are within it's standard treasure value for its CR, seems like something more akin to the difficulty bump you run into when you get a DM that runs monsters with good tactics. It might seem much harder then what you expect if your old DM was a slouch, but does that mean the CR goes up? Probably only if there was some tough environmental features that gave the monsters an advantage.
Along those same lines, I could see raising the CR if a monster had his whole treasure budget spent on consumables to nova with, or items the party couldn't use, like giant sized magic armor. That would be rediculous to do with every creature.
CR does not take GM tactics into account. It does take numbers into account. There is no way to account for every GM, but you can account for numbers.
Saying it has useful gear is not enough. The issue is how much does that gear help the monster. Did any of the gear in Gorby's example make the monster significantly more difficult?
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. If not for tactics, certain enemies simply would not be the CRs they are. For example, there are countless ambush monsters scattered throughout the books. A great example is the Tiger.
The tiger is a puss (kitty jokes aside) if he's not tactically prowling on the party. However, if he's actually using tactics like a tiger should, then he's actually terrifying and very much worth his CR. An encounter with a tiger out in the open, where he just runs up and claws like an ogre swinging its club is borderline free experience points.
An encounter with the tiger who stalks the party having picked up their trail with scent, who remains a good 40 ft. behind the party, milking its +11 Stealth modifier with an additional +8 Stealth from distance penalties, who opens the battle with a surprise-round charge->bounce on the poor fool at the back, side, or front of the party, and then proceeds to tear said fool to pieces with a 1 bite, 2 claw, 2 rake attack full attack that's enough to drop a Fighter from full to negatives...
Totally not free experience points.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
So the Ghaele gets another 30000+ to spend in addition to its sword which is already valued at 32000?I did see that you went in to having things strewn about, I was just using the term treasure horde to refer to all of it's treasure wherever it may be, for convenience.
I think we both agree the CR rating is for the monster "as is" but we mean different things by "as is".
I would say that the useful items in the treasure horde are still part of the creature, "as is". They are mentioned right there in the stat block under Treasure: Standard. Or double or NPC Gear, or double or whatever.
You also ignore the fact that monster equipment changes depending on the speed of the XP progression, but their challenge rating and the equipment of the PCs does not. An 11th level PC on slow-XP progression has the same WBL as as an 11th level PC on fast-XP progression. However, the Ghaele does not. The ghaele goes from having a +4 weapon to a +3 weapon at best with 5,250 gp in additional gear. The Ghaele's CR does not change however. Nor does the Ghaele's CR change when it gets its treasure boosted to over 52,000 gp worth of gear (enough for a +5 weapon now).
I also showed, during our ghaele discussion last time, that the Ghaele is not meaningfully impacted if you take her +4 weapon away completely and give her nothing more than a masterwork sword. Since you are bringing up the Ghaele, I'll bring up the point showing your wrong.
Contrary to apparent beliefs, most people in my games aren't going to have sweet war-ending magic items at low levels (or at high levels for that matter, but then again I don't see death ward 1/day as war-ending). From levels 1-6th, potions and the occasional +1 gear is probably all you're going to find, unless you want to craft it yourself, or loot it off a boss encounter, or find it as treasure in a scary dungeon. My group also uses 15 Point Buy.
There's a lot of assumptions being made about my games. Since it will probably continue, I'd like to get this nonsense straitened out right here and now.
I did see that you went in to having things strewn about, I was just using the term treasure horde to refer to all of it's treasure wherever it may be, for convenience.
I think we both agree the CR rating is for the monster "as is" but we mean different things by "as is".
I would say that the useful items in the treasure horde are still part of the creature, "as is". They are mentioned right there in the stat block under Treasure: Standard. Or double or NPC Gear, or double or whatever.
This! So much this! That's my point. When a creature's entry says "Treasure Standard", that is just a much a feature of that creature as "8HD" or "BAB +3". It shows how much treasure the creature has, and they will use any of it that is usable.
This isn't a matter of boosting CRs. This is a matter of CRs just being CRs. If a GM is intentionally dumbing down his monsters, or unintentionally, such as when he forgets to activate spell-buffs on his monsters (Pit Fiends have Unholy Aura at-will, so there is literally no reason for it not to be active every waking minute).
Now the only thing I've seen that suggests equipment = +CR is in the Gamemastering section where it notes NPCs who have PC WBL get +1 CR. Yep. You heard me. Only +1. The only way that Ogre Magi would be CR 9 would be if the fool was decked out in 8th level PC gear. That would go from having a treasure value of just a little above 5,000 gp, to 33,000 gp. Yowza!
Now THAT would increase CR. Forget a +1 weapon, a +1 ring, and a +1 cloak. Ogre Boy is going to be decked out. We're talking awesome magic items, rings, potions, wands, scrolls, whatever he needs. In fact, he probably will have the perfect tool for the job in most cases if he's smart about it. With that sort of cash, the ol' boy might just use that Use Magic Device skill he has, turn invisible, fly around, and just spam Summon Monster III from a wand every round on the round (normally he'd never be able to afford a...
That is quiet a silly argument. You know the CR system is not exact. Yeah if you want to say "but the book says" then that argument might work, but to say the CR system advancement idea work across the board makes no sense. There is even a thread dedicated to staying within CR "by the book", that allows you to break CR in actual practice.
I have not seen anyone mention not using a monster's abilities either. Just to be clear I do know that assigning a monster a value a of CR 11 does not matter if the GM does not play the monster to its potentional, but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
That treasure is there for the PC's. As I quoted in the monster creation rules the treasure can be strewn across the lair, but any equipment is to be accounted for in the monster's final stat block.
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Ashiel, are you trying to tell us that a CR 19 dragon fully decked in magic items is the same as a CR 19 Shoggoth who, by virtue of being an ooze, can't be decked out in any magic items?
Or that a CR 12 Lich (combat magic itamz all way down, that's how they roll in Ashielverse) is equal to a CR 12 Sea Serpent (treasure: none)?
Or finally, that Shakaroth the Unbound, a CR 12 Lich who spent all his treasure on rods of metamagic and stat boosters is equal to Zoomey the Looney Lich, who has an eccentric collection of bags of holdings and handy haversacks obsessively collected over the course of her undeath?
am I the only one who hands treasure as quest reward in the hight of treasure found on all ennemies normally robbed?
Sometimes it's ad hoc, when my players found this awesome way of making money, someone or something will come and fight them.
But I completly get the problem, a GM I had once hid goldcoins in the fur of a wild boar we just killed. Nobody even thought about searching the body.
But Gorbacz just pointed out that the recent treasure examples Jason put up from ultimate equipment show some of the treasure as useful gear the creature will use.
Any baddy that had PC level wealth would warrant a CR bump in my eyes, monstrous or humanoid, it makes no difference to me.
But equipping an ordinary creature with the useful items it has that are within it's standard treasure value for its CR, seems like something more akin to the difficulty bump you run into when you get a DM that runs monsters with good tactics. It might seem much harder then what you expect if your old DM was a slouch, but does that mean the CR goes up? Probably only if there was some tough environmental features that gave the monsters an advantage.
Along those same lines, I could see raising the CR if a monster had his whole treasure budget spent on consumables to nova with, or items the party couldn't use, like giant sized magic armor. That would be rediculous to do with every creature.
CR does not take GM tactics into account. It does take numbers into account. There is no way to account for every GM, but you can account for numbers.
Saying it has useful gear is not enough. The issue is how much does that gear help the monster. Did any of the gear in Gorby's example make the monster significantly more difficult?
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. If not for tactics, certain enemies simply would not be the CRs they are. For example, there are countless ambush monsters scattered throughout the books. A great example is the Tiger.
The tiger is a puss (kitty jokes aside) if he's not tactically prowling on the party. However, if he's actually using tactics like a tiger should, then he's actually terrifying and very much worth his CR. An encounter with a tiger out in the open, where he just runs up and claws like an ogre swinging its club is borderline free experience points.
An encounter with the tiger who stalks the party having picked up their...
I was saying you can't take every GM's tactics into account. Of course the game assumes the GM uses common sense. Have a giant that does not go into melee with you, but throws rocks and tries to run away would be waste of CR as an example.
It was over the course of 3 levels of adventuring so far, with the same spread of encounter difficulties I would normally use, ranging from easy to epic.What point buy do the players use, and what books do they have access to? The game assumes 15 point buy and average players. The more you deviate from that towards optimal players the less challenging a monster will be. That is why I said in an earlier post that a typical challenge for most groups I have run for will be difficult for other players, mostly those who played under easier GM's.
They are on 20 point buy, but approximately half WBL (low ish magic campaign).
They are fairly casual players, a couple of them visit the boards occasionally and look at guides, they know the name of Treantmonk, and think of him as "that munchkin guy on the boards that teaches you how to powergame", but they say it in a less pejorative way then it sounds when I type it here.
They have a knack for party synergy sometimes, and at least one of them has a natural knack for tactics. They prioritize roleplaying and character concept over builds and don't dump-stat unless its RP driven.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
No material component is 30,000 gp that the ghaele needs. What do you mean the ghaele would not forget it was there?
So can the ghaele go out buy +2 full plate to boost it AC to 39 and still keep the same CR?
edit:It still has over 15000 left to improve other areas.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
Pretty much this. It seems silly to think that every Ghaele ever is wandering around with the same +4 sword (especially when you consider their chaotic natures). They cast spells as clerics too. They need expensive spell components. Some ghaeles might not have a +4 sword, but might just have a +2 sword, some eye drops (component for true seeing), and some other trinkets, scrolls, or wands. Heck, you might encounter a Ghaele that wields a +2 quarterstaff that has spell charges.
My point is simple. Ghaeles get 34,800 gp worth of treasure. That's part of the ghaele. It's as much a part of the ghaele as being the Outsider type, having X amount of hit points, having a certain hit die, or caster level, or possessing certain immunities, and so forth. It is the treasure that a ghaele is carrying with her, and it should make sense that it is with her (weapons, wands, potions, scrolls, jewelery, etc), and if she can use it then she will. Simple as that.
Likewise, not every orc under the sun is going to be wearing the same gear. Some might be in splint mail, a battle axe, and a heavy wooden shield. Others might be wielding bows. More still might be wielding reach weapons. All cases will change the orc's capabilities and options to a degree. None of them are somehow less fair, less official, or warrant more or less XP.
You also ignore the fact that monster equipment changes depending on the speed of the XP progression, but their challenge rating and the equipment of the PCs does not. An 11th level PC on slow-XP progression has the same WBL as as an 11th level PC on fast-XP progression. However, the Ghaele does not. The ghaele goes from having a +4 weapon to a +3 weapon at best with 5,250 gp in additional gear. The Ghaele's CR does not change however. Nor does the Ghaele's CR change when it gets its treasure boosted to over 52,000 gp worth of gear (enough for a +5 weapon now).
Ashiel you know we assume the standard on the boards. We went over this last time. That is how I got the 30000ish for the ghaele. The game assumed the medium XP track. I did not ignore anything.
I also showed, during our ghaele discussion last time, that the Ghaele is not meaningfully impacted if you take her +4 weapon away completely and give her nothing more than a masterwork sword. Since you are bringing up the Ghaele, I'll bring up the point showing your wrong.
Do it. I am sure taking +4 away reduces her chances to hit. The point with the Ghaele per this discussion was based on the numbers. You showing how she can teleport will not discount that fact that she needs that sword to match up numberwise. In short you proved nothing, except that she has other abilities that she can use beyond the sword.
Contrary to apparent beliefs, most people in my games aren't going to have sweet war-ending magic items at low levels (or at high levels for that matter, but then again I don't see death ward 1/day as war-ending). From levels 1-6th, potions and the occasional +1 gear is probably all you're going to find, unless you want to craft it yourself, or loot it off a boss encounter, or find it as treasure in a scary dungeon. My group also uses 15 Point Buy.I never made that accusation. What I will say is that I am willing to bet is that your group much like many I have GM'd are above average in ability, which is why both of us give our monsters gear at times.
If either one of us were GM'ing for some of the lesser groups as far as ability is concerned we would have to tune it down or have TPK's.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
No material component is 30,000 gp that the ghaele needs. What do you mean the ghaele would not forget it was there?
So can the ghaele go out buy +2 full plate to boost it AC to 39 and still keep the same CR?
edit:It still has over 15000 left to improve other areas.
This seems to be getting more heated then I want it to between me and you, I enjoy your contributions to the board and want to remain on good terms with you. I don't know how I could be any more clear about what I mean by the word "there". Why are you bolding it. I'm honestly confused.
What I'm saying is, try building a treasure horde for a ghaele using that 30000 GP budget, without including anything useful she might use, without seriously stretching the verisimilitude. Don't you agree out of 30000 GP worth of valuables, there would be something there that is a useful item she would make use of? That's all I was trying to say, I'm really not sure how you took it but I hope I didn't offend.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
Pretty much this. It seems silly to think that every Ghaele ever is wandering around with the same +4 sword (especially when you consider their chaotic natures). They cast spells as clerics too. They need expensive spell components. Some ghaeles might not have a +4 sword, but might just have a +2 sword, some eye drops (component for true seeing), and some other trinkets, scrolls, or wands. Heck, you might encounter a Ghaele that wields a +2 quarterstaff that has spell charges.
My point is simple. Ghaeles get 34,800 gp worth of treasure. That's part of the ghaele. It's as much a part of the ghaele as being the Outsider type, having X amount of hit points, having a certain hit die, or caster level, or possessing certain immunities, and so forth. It is the treasure that a ghaele is carrying with her, and it should make sense that it is with her (weapons, wands, potions, scrolls, jewelery, etc), and if she can use it then she will. Simple as that.
Likewise, not every orc under the sun is going to be wearing the same gear. Some might be in splint mail, a battle axe, and a heavy wooden shield. Others might be wielding bows. More still might be wielding reach weapons. All cases will change the orc's capabilities and options to a degree. None of them are somehow less fair, less official, or warrant more or less XP.
I agree that in a living world, that not every Ghaele has the exact same weapon, same feats, same hit points, and so on. That does not change what the book gives you though. The fact that we switch things up in our worlds does not change what the typical monster has.
Well it's not exactly "to spend", but basically, yeah. I would just think about what a Ghaele would be carrying. It wouldn't be just 30,000 gold coins clinking around. It would probably have a very expensive spell component, I'll tell you that. That takes a chunk out of that big number. But yeah, a decent amount of that 30,000 would be in the form of something useful, and the ghaele wouldn't just forget it was there only for it to be discovered when she's dead.
Edit: this was regarding the ghaele post, I got double Ninja'd
No material component is 30,000 gp that the ghaele needs. What do you mean the ghaele would not forget it was there?
So can the ghaele go out buy +2 full plate to boost it AC to 39 and still keep the same CR?
edit:It still has over 15000 left to improve other areas.
This seems to be getting more heated then I want it to between me and you, I enjoy your contributions to the board and want to remain on good terms with you. I don't know how I could be any more clear about what I mean by the word "there". Why are you building it. I'm honestly confused.
What I'm saying is, try building a treasure horde for a ghaele using that 30000 GP budget, without including anything useful she might use, without seriously stretching the verisimilitude. Don't you agree out of 30000 GP worth of valuables, there would be something there that is a useful item she would make use of? That's all I was trying to say, I'm really not sure how you took it but I hope I didn't offend.
By "there" did you mean on the ghaele is what I was asking. If so I already said that if a monster has treasure on its body it should use it. The question is what else should it have, and that is the focal point of this thread to a large extent.
If you are asking from a common sense point of view I say yes she should have used some of the treasure to make herself a better combatant. I never disagreed with that about any monster. I am not arguing from the monster's PoV though. I am saying that from a design point of view using(the GM adding) treasure to make the monster noticeably more difficult without upping CR was never the intent.