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Since you are fairly new to Pfinder here is a link to Magus from the Ultimate Magic book on the PRD.....LINK!!!
It is more of the mystical warrior that you seem to be looking for.
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I'll be playing with a group of competent players, but not min-maxers, so I don't need to keep up with a super high power curve in terms of damage, but at the same time, I don't want to do what other people seem to be suggesting, which is just run around grappling enemy spellcasters and being pure support. I want my monk to be badass.
Also, I don't like the flavor of the base monk all that much anyway. I'm looking for someone with cool mystic powers beyond just punching people hard and slow falling. Think Avatar and their monk's bending abilities as an inspiration.
Wow. I believe you didn't extend your research really far if you think all a monk is good at is "running around to grapple the spellcaster and sometimes fall slowly". This kind of things doesn't exist anymore since the APG, UM and UC supplements. I'll be honest, if you are limited to core and you where underwhelmed by these comments, don't play a core monk.
I myself played a drunken and a tetori grappler monk ; both with cool AC and offensive options. The first did flurries of disarm/trip and just ran away with the BBEG's weapons ; the second was a grappling machine of death catching and pinning up to three foes at a time (including big heavy monsters), all the while dealing sweet damage.
A sorcerer has low BAB, cannot wear armors unless he wants to deal with spell failure, no way to counterbalance this lack of armor except by using some spells beforehand, and low HP. Multiclassing it in rogue will make it even worse since his spell progression will be abysmal, and his damage income will depend from his spells. There is a way to multiclass a sorcerer with a wild bloodine basing his spells on Wisdom ; and taking monks levels so you have average spellcasting and good AC.
If you have a 15-pb, don't even think about doing a core sorcerer/monk though, it's not even a question of being powerful, but you will feel useless most of the time.
The closest thing you may be interested in if you want to make punch with elemental damage would be a Magus with Improved Unarmed Strike (Force Punch/Shocking Grasp on a punch ? Yes !); or a monk with the Elemental Fist feat trees (including the Four Winds archetype).
Also, take the "Qinggong" archetype stacking with all others, so you can replace slow fall for Barkskin or Scorching Ray, for example. More thematic.
Later on, find an Amulet of Mighty Fists and make it flaming/shock/frost as you desire.
If it's simply a monk-like theme you seek, perhaps a single-classed sorcerer with the Wildblooded (Empyreal) bloodline which Maxximilius mentioned would suit you? The flavor indicates that they gain their sorcerous powers from devotion/ meditation rather than from innate ability. You then have a "monk" who has trained himself/ herself to manifest arcane power. It might be fun to dip into monk for a single level at some point to add your wisdom to your AC; since monks and arcanists rely on many of the same AC sources, and wisdom is already going to be your highest statistic, this could allow your wizened monk to drift through melee untouched, always knowing just when to dodge an incoming attack, before delivering a devastating touch attack.
If it wouldn't be too far afield to add another archetype (hence non-core), a level of Sohei and six levels of the aforementioned sorcerer followed by Eldritch Knight can be very fun. I believe that you can find more on that build here.
This subject is close to my heart; let us know what you decide!
Edit: Ah, you have beaten me to it :).
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The Magus sounds nice, but I don't think my DM would want to use a base class from outside Core. He seems open to alternate character powers, though... what about a Sensei Monk (uses wisdom instead of strength for attacks, can't flurry of blows) coupled with a Empyreal Sorcerer, with most levels being in Sorcerer? That'd give me a nice AC for staying in combat and spell casting, right? Can I use touch attacks while punching people? :)
That's the combo I was talking about. :)
Keep in mind that any multiclassing is crippling for a sorcerer, since he is already one spell level late when compared to a wizard. But if you are really in a game without min-maxer and talk with your DM beforehand so your character can shine a bit, it should be easier. (We started a game with Core only, now my DM is one of the biggest APG fans of the group !)I would suggest at least two levels of Sensei, putting your major stats in Wisdom and Dexterity (take the Magical Knack trait to increase your spellcaster level by 2, up to your total level so you don't suffer the 2 sensei levels to your spellcaster level) ; then going full sorcerer.
Touch attacks are special : when you cast a melee touch attack spell, you may touch the target as part of casting the spell ; otherwise, if you miss or don't attack once the spell cast, you may choose to keep the charge which is applied on your next attack with a natural weapon, unarmed strike or simply touch attack. If you cast another spell while you are keeping another spell's charge, the charge disappears and the previous spell is lost.
Note that while a magus can cast AND hit in the same round, if you wish to punch a foe with a touch attack spell you will have to lose your rounds casting a spell then hitting with a real attack on the following ; which should be crippingly boring after one or two sessions. :/
One of my favorite options on this front is a Dwarf Monk 1 / Empyreal Sorceror X. You lose 1 level of casting (oh noes!) and get your casting stat as a bonus to your armor, +2 all saves, and a couple other niceties.
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This thread proves what I said in a different "Y DO MUNKS SUXXORS" thread and Cheapy and a few others jumped my crap about.
All the negativity and "MUNKZ SUX" garbage has made this guy not want to play one.
New to PF in general, and instead of wanting to try and make one to see for himself, nope....wants to make a different class do what a monk can....and is having problems doing so.
At OP:
I played a Qingong Master of Many Styles Monk of the 4 Winds, 20 point buy, with a 10 (omg but why Bomanz why wtf u noob!) Con and a 14 STR, a 16 DEX and 16 WIS.
I focused on AC, and then mobility route, with Combat Reflexes and the Panther Style feats to begin with.
The idea was to move around, purposely provoking AoO by moving through (overrun works wonders here) enemy squares, and then doing Combat Maneuvers during my attacks. The AoO the enemies would try to hit me with (mobility added +4 to my AC, so they rarely hit) gave me the riposte, and then my normal attacks would be a trip/reposition/dirty trick/grapple Combat Maneuver, which provoked (and let me riposte again). Next turn I could FOB, or do more of the same.
Once I was level 5, I had the Qingong to swap out things I didn't need (slowfall, stuff like that) for some of the more spell like abilities.
The beauty of this build was basically it got rid of the whole "monks cant move and hit more than once in a turn" garbage you read on the other threads. I was usually hitting for between 3-7 hits a turn unarmed striking (depending on where I placed myself and if the enemy provoked AoO by moving away from me).
This was a blast to play, and was one of the most deadly and dangerous guys on the field, including a summoning druid and 2 fighters.
Don't let the garbage tell you otherwise, especially if the group you play with isnt made up of "I KILL GREATER DAEMONS IN ONE HIT!" uber-munchkins.
Monks are badass, pure and simple. You can get the flavor you want with archetypes, and you can do decent damage while using unarmed combat, and you can also do other maneuvering too.
Its is not a broken class.
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@Bomanz: Wow, we see something awesome with a DM himself coming to ask how to make the game better and funnier for his player without breaking the game ; and you have to ruin everything with a rant about what the monk can do. Chill out dude.
The OP explicitely said he was allowed core only with possible exceptions if it was cool for the DM, so it's not to start suggesting things from a thousand supplements at once.
Monks are friggin' awesome when built right, but to make them really badass, you need more rules-fu than most beginners. The core monk sucks, and it is basically what the OP didn't want to play.
@Shovelbum: Magical knack only increases your effective caster level (to a maximum of you total level, so a level 1 sorcerer would not be treated as a level 3 spellcaster but a Monk 2/Sorcerer 1 would be), nothing more. It doesn't provide more/new spells ; it only affects the level you are for the purpose of determining effects of spells. It is meant to reduce the crippling effects of multiclassing.
Once again, I suggest the Elemental Fist tree if what the OP wants is to punch things with elements. A monk/sorcerer simply can't be done as you wish (that is, casting a touch spell and punching with it in the same round) ; though it is able to buff himself and cast different kinds of spells when he can not attack instead. There is a reason the magus was a class asked by a lot of people, there simply wasn't ny true gish class.
The only way to do efficiently a guy hitting with spells is by playing a magus. He could even enhance his on fists to make them burning !
You will not be overpowered by channeling spells through your fists, when you could very well do it with a 15-20x2 weapon instead and have a 1/4 chance to deal double damage on a Shocking grasp.
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Part of what doesn't do it for me with the vanilla monk is the fact that Flurry of Blows requires me to stand in one spot and just do full round attacks. I want someone that's mobile, leaping around the battlefield dishing out close range damage and has cool mystical abilities (ie, think of the Avatar cartoons) to supplement that.
What kind of spells/mystical abilities do you want ?
Going sorcerer allows for great spellcasting diversity at the expense of martial power ; staying full monk allows you to gain qinggong powers emulating some spells, all the while keeping martial efficiency.Keep in mind that there isn't any true way to play an Avatar expy ; except maybe through this 3PP archetype. I haven't heard about it, but it seems balanced, maybe a bit too weak for what it trades off. See with Shovelbum if including spells with the Water/Fire/Earth descriptor (in addition to Air) would be cool for your character.
Then maybe a two level dip into Sensei (to add your wisdom to both your AC and to hit) then straight out Sorcerer the rest of the way.
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The idea was to move around, purposely provoking AoO by moving through (overrun works wonders here) enemy squares, and then doing Combat Maneuvers during my attacks. The AoO the enemies would try to hit me with (mobility added +4 to my AC, so they rarely hit) gave me the riposte, and then my normal attacks would be a trip/reposition/dirty trick/grapple Combat Maneuver, which provoked (and let me riposte again). Next turn I could FOB, or do more of the same.I do like that idea. I may use it if I stay monk as my primary thing. That kind of battlefield mobility is exactly what I envisioned for a monk to begin with that I couldn't figure out how to do.
By curiosity, how did you do grapple/dirty trick/repositions when these maneuvers are normally standard actions ? Maneuver master monk ? (A good choice for a lot of fun during fights, btw).
I played something similar, trading attacks for combat maneuvers made as attack rolls.I'm not looking to play an avatar expy. I'm looking to play a supernatural guy that can kick your ass by being highly mobile and hitting hard. I don't want to stand in one spot and flurry of blows or be a blast spells from a distance. Being a sorcerer that uses touch attacks seemed like a good way to do that off the top of my head.
At higher levels, this feat allows you to teleport yourself and perform a flurry at the same time. In any case, you'll run into two common issues :
- A mobile melee character usually deals few damage ; and a melee character dealing a lot of damage usually isn't mobile (due to being unable to full-attack)- A sorcerer just hasn't the capacity (hit points, AC and attack) to perform well in the front line.
For martial ability, what you could do is a monk who runs to his foes and disarms/trips them, using resulting attacks of opportunity to get close "safely" and flurry on the following rounds. Qinggong archetype will give you Scorching ray, Poison, etc.
For spellcasting, I don't suggest going into melee, but you may look at the Orc bloodline and pump heavily your capacity with Armor/Shield spells, group buffs, dexterity to AC and Weapon Finesse for Dex to attack. Or sorcerer/monk ; but be sure to talk to your DM so he doesn't put foes too powerful. You have to find the right balance of difficulty.
For both at once, I suggest again a magus. Mobile, good spell list (including Dimension Door), can punch and cast at the same time.
For the sorcerer idea, which I actually really like -- a mystic mover of "ki" that manifests as magic -- a few thoughts:
- Aberrant bloodline is actually pretty cool for a "monk" like character. You can fluff it that as you discipline your body, mind, and soul, you slowly reshape yourself into something beyond human. The bloodline offers amongst its bonus feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Improved Disarm. The improved reach for touch attacks helps for your touch spell idea. The bloodline also gets resistance (and eventually immunity) to crits and sneak attacks which is suitable. It also gets bonuses to polymorph spells which makes sense for a caster that may engage to some degree in melee.
The thing here is to benefit from it you need to stay pure sorc; if you DO want to be engage in melee at times or be a close range caster, make sure you boost your AC as high as you can and also get some buffs and have a high Str to make up for low BAB. And remember you will be a caster first, not a warrior.
It's also totally core. Although the APG spell stone fist would be quite suitable.
- Yes, if you want to multiclass with monk, going Empyreal Sorcerer would be a great way to go as it restricts MAD a lot. It sucks that the empyreal version loses the celestial's wings of heaven ability but with spellcasting you have other ways to fly.
Just remember with multiclassing a sorcerer you will be below max caster level so pick your spells carefully -- use a lot of buffs and stuff that SR doesn't apply to, so you don't have to worry a lot about caster level checks or maximizing damage.
- Were you to go fairly literally with the "bender" idea, I'd probably go with Air, not for the reference, but to eventually aim for the flight ability, and electricity isn't a common immunity/resistance for lower level monsters (by the time you're higher level it won't be a big deal anyway).
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If your GM is willing to use one of the previously accepted interpretations of how Flurry of Blows works (the one where you can two-hand a Temple sword and still Flurry), a "Vanilla" monk from the Core Rule book built using Treantmonks guidelines will out damage a Fighter for much of the early levels.
This thread proves what I said in a different "Y DO MUNKS SUXXORS" thread and Cheapy and a few others jumped my crap about.
All the negativity and "MUNKZ SUX" garbage has made this guy not want to play one.
New to PF in general, and instead of wanting to try and make one to see for himself, nope....wants to make a different class do what a monk can....and is having problems doing so.
Eh? What did I say?
A quick thing to note:
Lots of people here are saying that you can't cast a spell and hit your enemy in the same round, as it's strictly a Magus thing.
This Statement is 100% FALSE.That's right. As part of casting a touch spell, you are allowed one free touch attack. In place of the touch attack, you are allowed to deliver the spell via an unarmed strike OR a natural weapon. The only special thing about a Magus is that they get the ability to deliver the spell with a manufactured weapon.
Once again, EVERY spellcaster who casts a touch spell can deliver it with a touch attack (vs. touch AC), an unarmed strike (vs. regular AC) OR a natural weapon (vs. regular AC). If they choose to deliver it via an unarmed strike or natural attack, they deliver the spell AND deal the damage of the unarmed strike/natural attack.
Sensei 2 / Emyreal Sorc. is the way to go!
Just a quick note, when they cast a touch range spell, they receive a free touch attack. They do not receive a free unarmed strike or natural weapon attack, and cannot substitute the free touch attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack.
It's only once "holding the charge", after their turn, comes into play that they can use an unarmed strike / natural weapon to deliver it. Normally, they could use a standard action to deliver the touch spell's effect. But once they are holding the charge, they can instead punch or claw (or whatever), and since they touched the enemy, it discharges.
So to be clear: You CANNOT cast a Touch spell and then immediately (or after a move or whatever) punch your enemy for unarmed damage + the spell's effect. You can only do that once the Holding the Charge kicks into effect. Since the rules of spells are written assuming Standard Action casting time, things get a bit wonky when you can cast them as non-standard actions. But it's not worthwhile to cover that for now.
Oh, wow. I though he meant like "Monk" form the TV show Monk.
I thought it odd you'd use a sorc and not an inquisitor...
To the OP:
You might consider an oracle fromt he APG. Not core rule book. But it is the sorc equiv for divine casters. I would think it can do the mystical powers bit very well.
However, I also have to say. I don't think monks are as horrible as some people on these boards claim. Especially if the rest of your group are not uber optimizers.
I'm a big fan of going sorc 1/monk 4 / Dragon disciple, but it's taken a lot of rules fu to figure out how to do it well. You slow down spell progression a lot, but the flavour is a lot of fun and you end up with an excelent frontliner who can cast in a pinch at higher levels.