One of my players (plays an Elf Sorcerer) wanted to take this 3rd party spell:
I told him:
I have some concerns about that spell. It's much better than either the 1st level spell "Break" or the second level spell "Shatter." Objects get no save and there is no hard limit on damage it can do. The way it interacts with the game world is rather open ended, which may call for a lot of DM adjudication. Maybe you could revise the spell?
What do you think of the spell? Would you allow it?
I think I see what the player is trying to do here, he or she wants to be a wizard bank robber am I right? I tend not to like 3rd party material and in a serious game I might not allow this. However for a solo character or one who wants to be a "bank robber" without being a stealth based character I might consider it.
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I think it depends on how you read it. For me I would use the chart to show how much cutting it could do. So for example if it was a something 1 inch thick and a hardness of 4 the PC could cut all the way threw and a 6 inch long line in a single turn. Still to cut a 3ft by 3ft hole in something plenty big to crawl threw it would then take 24 rounds(2 rounds per ft, 6 rounds per 3ft side and then 4 sides)
If you read it that the PC can cut 1 inch deep but as big around as they want then that makes it a lot more powerful.
I agree it is a little vague on that part, being a level one spell I would use my first example myself.
I think I see what the player is trying to do here, he or she wants to be a wizard bank robber am I right? I tend not to like 3rd party material and in a serious game I might not allow this. However for a solo character or one who wants to be a "bank robber" without being a stealth based character I might consider it.
We are playing Haunting of Harrowstone. The character self-identifies as an "investigator" and likes finding clues, considering all possibilities and angles, and being cerebral. The player gets bored in combat.
My concern is not over how I anticipate the spell being used in game, but all the clever ways it can be used that I don't anticipate.
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A 1d6+1 to 1d6+10 touch attack? That's the equivalent of Chill Touch...only better, since it can be upkept for an entire combat. I mean, it lacks the Str damage...but by fourth level it's doing twice as much actual damage.
And that's entirely aside from it's utility uses (which are even better than it's combative ones). Way too powerful for 1st level.
On the other hand, as a 2nd level spell it seems reasonable to me. Shatter, after all, breaks things instantly, making it combatively useful as an object breaker...which this isn't per se.
So, I'd allow it as 2nd level if he really wants it, but never at 1st, where it's seriously broken, IMO.
I think it depends on how you read it. For me I would use the chart to show how much cutting it could do. So for example if it was a something 1 inch thick and a hardness of 4 the PC could cut all the way threw and a 6 inch long line in a single turn. Still to cut a 3ft by 3ft hole in something plenty big to crawl threw it would then take 24 rounds(2 rounds per ft, 6 rounds per 3ft side and then 4 sides)
If you read it that the PC can cut 1 inch deep but as big around as they want then that makes it a lot more powerful.
I agree it is a little vague on that part, being a level one spell I would use my first example myself.
I think you're right that the spell needs some specificity.
Hmmm... a circle that is 6 inches around is about 2 inches across. Does this mean the character can "excise" a lock from a chest or door in a round? The spell can be used on hardness 10, which includes weapon-grade steel. It seems like, with a few minutes, a character can cause a lot of chaos.
Maybe the spell should have an object hp damage limit?
yeah or instead of 1min/lvl have a static duration.
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I think it depends on how you read it. For me I would use the chart to show how much cutting it could do. So for example if it was a something 1 inch thick and a hardness of 4 the PC could cut all the way threw and a 6 inch long line in a single turn. Still to cut a 3ft by 3ft hole in something plenty big to crawl threw it would then take 24 rounds(2 rounds per ft, 6 rounds per 3ft side and then 4 sides)
If you read it that the PC can cut 1 inch deep but as big around as they want then that makes it a lot more powerful.
I agree it is a little vague on that part, being a level one spell I would use my first example myself.
I think you're right that the spell needs some specificity.
Hmmm... a circle that is 6 inches around is about 2 inches across. Does this mean the character can "excise" a lock from a chest or door in a round? The spell can be used on hardness 10, which includes weapon-grade steel. It seems like, with a few minutes, a character can cause a lot of chaos.
Maybe the spell should have an object hp damage limit?
I would first of all as a GM adjucate that the spell can only cut as deep in a round as it can cut in a line. Cutting something with a hardness of 10 then would allow you to cut a line 1 inch deep and 1 inch long in one round. Through a thing with a hardness of 5, you could cut 3 inches long and 3 inches deep. That makes it fairly balanced in my opinion and I would allow it. A good axe is going to do just as good in most cases on wood and less and for small things like locks or cell bars, its a one shot lock pick/get out of jail.
Given enough time, you could use it to cut deeper if you angled your cuts right, but by the time you are high enough level to do that, there are better spells to use.
For damage, I would change it from what it reads there. I think it should be 1d6 +1 per 2 levels to a maximum of 10.
The spell have a concentration duration. To concentrate a spell one should spend a standard action. On combat it can only be used on the first round, as soon as the caster casxt it, or (with GM adjudication) on AoOs. But then he will spend his next rounds just maintaining the spell. For combat it's fine.
Outside combat is the thing... But the spell states that the max cutting deepness is six inches. He could not cut six inches one round, and next round cut more six inches deep, no room for the fingers. So yeah, a chest or wood door is no problem for him (but traps are for this), but if you want to stop him outside, use foot-thick stone doors.
I would just disallow that spell, and let the cerebral investigator learn sift and solid note as a sop. Tell me his bloodline, and maybe I can re-name and re-flavor solid note to fit.
I would allow the spell as it leads to funny non-combat situations.
An adamantine dagger/hammer would probably do the same thing most of the time (with a decent strength).
At low levels a lvl 1 spell known is important, and later the effect seems laughable.
An incombat use leaves me worried a bit, but I doubt the sorcerer would like to go into melee.
I would just disallow that spell, and let the cerebral investigator learn sift and solid note as a sop. Tell me his bloodline, and maybe I can re-name and re-flavor solid note to fit.
Voidgazer. He's a Star Elf.
An incombat use leaves me worried a bit, but I doubt the sorcerer would like to go into melee.
This player is not very interested in combat, so that does not worry me. Instead I'm thinking about the out-of-combat ability to poke holes in stuff.
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Greetings I am the author of the spell.
The casting time makes it pretty useless in combat compared to other spells (its a full-round action before you can do anything). It requires concentration to maintain the duration (so your limited to what else you can do while doing this). Unlike break or shatter it has no range, so your walking up to an area that could be trapped or subject to an ambush.
After dealing damage to a creature it should have read discharged.Dark Mistress ruling is the one I would use when it comes to how much it can cut.
"My concern is not over how I anticipate the spell being used in game, but all the clever ways it can be used that I don't anticipate."
This is a drawback to my designs. I tend to like rules that are open to clever new uses, that take the power away from the rules and put the power back in the hands of the GM (this comes from my time designing for Arcana Evolved). I always simply suggesting telling the player I will rule cleaver new uses in the spirit of the spell not by the letter of the rules. This spell's spirit was simply to create a useful cutting tool.
Finally my suggestion to help allow the use of this spell is as a GM you don't control a players actions but you do control the environment and the outcome of those action. If a GM did not want something cut by it he simply made the hardness 11 or higher. Magically Treated stone, steal, iron or masonry, as well as standard mithral or adamantine.
Hope that helps.
I can't find a description for voidgazers, but the name and star elf is enough. Voidstuff!
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Components V, S
Effect one chunk of nothingnessThis spell functions like solid note, except that instead of solidifying sound, it instantiates the void. You give temporary reality to a piece of nonexistence and can hang it, suspended, wherever you wish within range, allowing you to use it as hook, pulley, door blocker, or anything else your imagination desires. The exact appearance of the voidstuff depends on your gestures.
And so on. Basically, since it's a gap in the universe -- no mere vacuum! -- nothing real can move through it, unless it exerts enough force to disrupt the spell. As such, voidstuff is unaffected by gravity, yet can be used for physical effects. I think that adding a somatic component and making the player try to draw the object in the air is a fair trade-off for access to another class's spell.
This spell is also a full round action to cast, as opposed to a standard action. If you are going to put more time in a spell, it should be better.
Greetings I am the author of the spell.
The casting time makes it pretty useless in combat compared to other spells ...
After dealing damage to a creature it should have read discharged.
Dark Mistress ruling is the one I would use when it comes to how much it can cut."My concern is not over how I anticipate the spell being used in game, but all the clever ways it can be used that I don't anticipate."
This is a drawback to my designs. I tend to like rules that are open to clever new uses, that take the power away from the rules and put the power back in the hands of the GM (this comes from my time designing for Arcana Evolved). I always simply suggesting telling the player I will rule cleaver new uses in the spirit of the spell not by the letter of the rules. This spell's spirit was simply to create a useful cutting tool.
Finally my suggestion to help allow the use of this spell is as a GM you don't control a players actions but you do control the environment and the outcome of those action. If a GM did not want something cut by it he simply made the hardness 11 or higher. Magically Treated stone, steal, iron or masonry, as well as standard mithral or adamantine.
Thanks for responding! It's a cool spell. Here's a bit of my game philosophy:
As a gamer, it is important to me that character success be tied to player choices (plus chance) thus respecting player free will. This can conflict with the fact of refereed games that all actions are resolved by DM fiat, in some proportion.As a DM, I am cautious about game elements that rely heavily on me to determine their effectiveness. In my opinion, this gives me more power at the expense of players' power. That is, if a game element requires less adjudication, then results of its application are more due to player choice. If if a game element requires more adjudication, then results of its application are less due to player choice.
This is not to say that I reject DM-adjudicated game elements, but that I weigh the balance of flexibility and player free will when deciding what elements to include.
Here is my first stab at a revision specific to my campaign:
Cutting Flame (Revision 1)
As written except;
•Flint and Steel is a reusable material focus, not an expended component
•Duration is Concentration up to rounds/level
•Attended objects get a save
•The length of the cut per round is given (in inches) by:
.........Caster Level + 6 – hardness........
By third level the flame can cut stone. By fifth level it can cut steel. At 10th level it can cut mithral.
I can't find a description for voidgazers, but the name and star elf is enough. Voidstuff!
And so on. Basically, since it's a gap in the universe -- no mere vacuum! -- nothing real can move through it, unless it exerts enough force to disrupt the spell. As such, voidstuff is unaffected by gravity, yet can be used for physical effects. I think that adding a somatic component and making the player try to draw the object in the air is a fair trade-off for access to another class's spell.School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Components V, S
Effect one chunk of nothingnessThis spell functions like solid note, except that instead of solidifying sound, it instantiates the void. You give temporary reality to a piece of nonexistence and can hang it, suspended, wherever you wish within range, allowing you to use it as hook, pulley, door blocker, or anything else your imagination desires. The exact appearance of the voidstuff depends on your gestures.
ooh, he might like this. I'll propose it.
bump for feedback
That looks like a conversion of the Wheel of Time d20 blade of fire or touch of fire, almost word for word. No wonder it's so powerful for 1st level. Definitely cut to 1 round per level and stagger the material being cut, as per the original suggestion.
It's a magic blowtorch. I don't really see a problem....
I might also add some caveat like the spell fizzles if it hits an arcane lock or a hold portal, and/or it can't work on fire resistance above 10 or some such.
Can the spell cut the wall around those things? What should the spell do to a mundane lock? Can I cut around the hinges of an adamantium door? How should the spell interact with a chain at 1st level? Should it be the same at 5th level? What about a portcullis? I want the spell to be useful, I just want to think a bit about things will play out. I appreciate your input.
We once got around a door with Wail of the Banshee by using Stone Shape on the wall next to it.
•Duration is rounds/level
•The length of the cut per round is given (in inches) by:
.........Caster Level + 6 – hardness........
Do you think tying hardness to level slows down the usefulness too much, or is the spell still good if I make this change?