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Did someone say 'trivializing the game'?
BARBARIAN PRETTY SURE THIS AM WRONG THREAD FOR THIS PARTICULAR CONCUSSION.
Hey I'm ok with it for monsters. Its like 4v1 that way monster is the under dog.
I think your problem there is encounter design. Always have minions yo. At least to ensure cannon fodder for the martials.
Did someone say 'trivializing the game'?BARBARIAN PRETTY SURE THIS AM WRONG THREAD FOR THIS PARTICULAR CONCUSSION.
I think you mean 'discussion', my dear. I understand that's difficult for you to differentiate.
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NO, BARBARIAN AM SAYING WHAT BARBARIAN MEAN JUST LIKE BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS DOING.
THIS AM NOT RIGHT THREAD FOR BARBARIAN BEAT HYPOTHETICAL GOD CASTY UPSIDE HEAD REALLY HARD. DUH.
I think you mean 'discussion', my dear. I understand that's difficult for you to differentiate.Did someone say 'trivializing the game'?BARBARIAN PRETTY SURE THIS AM WRONG THREAD FOR THIS PARTICULAR CONCUSSION.
AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM DIFFERENT BARBARIAN, AND AM AGREE WITH "AM BARBARIAN." BARBARIAN AM SMASH SO HARD THAT NOT-BARBARIANS AM HAVE "CUHN-CUSS-SHUNS." AT LEAST, IF NOT-BARBARIANS NOT TURN TO PANCAKES FROM BARBARIAN SMASH.
AM SAY CASTY TAKE "IHN-TELL-UH-GINTZ" DAMAGE LIKE BARBARIAN TAKE DAMAGE. MAYBE CASTY TAKE TOO MUCH "IHN-TELL-UH-GINTZ" DAMAGE, SO AM BECOME BARBARIAN LIKE OTHER BARBARIANS? BUT, AM BE TOO SMART FOR PERSON WITH "CUHN-CUSS-SHUN" TO DO, SO AM FIND CASTY BE AM BARBARIAN "IHM-PAHS-IH-BULL."
(AM SORRY FOR LANGUAGE, AM NOT HAVE "EH-JOO-KAY-SHUN" LIKE "AM BARBARIAN," SO AM USE TALKY-MAN BOOK TO READ FROM, BUT AM STILL SMASH LIKE "AM BARBARIAN!")
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Archery is the best combat style in PF because of 3 reasons:
-You don't have to move as much as melee does. This means with decent positioning you can almost always full attack, which is huge. Besides you don't really need to worry about opponents being out of range, so flight/well positioned enemies are much less of a problem.
-When melee advances to engage the enemy they become the enemy's primary targets. If your fighter/barbarian/paladin is fighting a colossal abomination with 300+ hp and str 40+, auras and whatnot up close they are risking their hide and there's actually a good chance they'll be turned into shish kebab (especially if the DM decides he wants said abomination to focus one of them) a properly played archer should never find himself near such a creature unless surprised, and can put it down in 2-3 rounds while his melee friends provide a meat shield.
-Since archers don't need armor as much as melee types do, they can save up money to buff their damage even more. Yes, it's always good to have decent AC but the fact is a properly played archer usually doesn't need AC40+, while his melee counterpart surely does at a certain point. Archers sure need great initiative though, luckily their primary stat is dex.
Once that's out of the way one should ask if clustered shots is "too powerful" in the context of basically removing one of the most glaring drawbacks of the archery style so early. And in that context the answer is probably yes, since melee is already at a disadvantage and inherently riskier than ranged combat, especially considering how the feat seems out of line compared with other feats meant to limit/remove DR.
Then of course one can argue that in a game with wizards/clerics/druids running around nerfing a good martial option isn't the way to go.
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Well you can already solve DR coldiron and silver by just paying a relatively small amount of money for a bundle of 50 arrows of each.
So that just leaves DR Alignment and Adamantine. And in my experience you don't fight too many things that have these in the same day. And by the level you do, you probably have enough smites per day on a paladin.
Hey I'm ok with it for monsters. Its like 4v1 that way monster is the under dog.I think your problem there is encounter design. Always have minions yo. At least to ensure cannon fodder for the martials.
I do that when I run for sure I use minions but It would be nice if I could use a monster 2 levels above the party's CR right out of the box and it last longer then 2 rounds. I have made pretty elaborate encounters and made highly difficult encounter that felt like real end bosses but oh the prep work. So much time spent tweaking details. They should really make encounters instead of beasts for the bestiary. OR maybe a book of pre put together encounters so I can grab one and go when I need too. but i'm off topic.
I say Clustered shot is OP cause its better then like every other feat out there. (except leadership but leadership isn't that hard to deal with.)
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paladins also have a really great archetype that grants them bonus feats so yes i did count paladins under the umbrella term classes that gets bonus featsAgain, my Paladin begs to differif your not playing something that gets bonus feats you probably shouldn't be playing an archer anywayNot by much, plus if you're not playing a fighter or ranger that feat is way more valuable.because the feat saves you time and hassle and also doesn't set you back massive amount towards getting a +5 bowThe opposite is also true: why waste a feat when you could just spend some money?
It's a matter of taste. It depends on which resource is more scarce and you need the most: money or feats.
My base model Paladin with no bonus feats begs to differ.
Because if you don't have all 15 feats you won't be any good at it?
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Considering the fact that that the bow's enchancement does not pass to the arrow anymore, I don't see an issue with it. It is now somewhat of a tax feat. I say "some what" because it is actually useful, and something people would take anyway unlike combat expertise which people tend to take only to get to other feats.
Considering the fact that that the bow's enchancement does not pass to the arrow anymore, I don't see an issue with it. It is now somewhat of a tax feat. I say "some what" because it is actually useful, and something people would take anyway unlike combat expertise which people tend to take only to get to other feats.
I just think there is a better way of handling it. I mean it is far better then the rest of your options.
Actually I know what would help with this. We could check out the DPR Olympics for archery. Compare average DR for monsters at various levels. Then we could see the effects with it and without it. Then we could run some statistics to see how much of an effect it has.
So What would be to much of an effect? If it increased DPR by say 30% vs creatures with dr or maybe 50%? (which seems way to much for a feat to me.) what would be the fair amount for you guys? at what point would you say THIS IS TO GOOD FOR A FEAT.
See to me doubling seems Way WAY to strong for a single feat to add. Even if it is under certain circumstances. imagine if all feats worked that way. Oh yeah my 15 feats equals 1500% increase in damage. YOWZA hold on that is not typically double let me do some math. ok so if you dealt 2 damage and it was doubled for every feat you have it would be it would be 32,768.
Right it does vary but When it his its desired target its damage increase is much higher then any other feat.
Lets look at it another way. would you agree that for a monsters CR the DR they give it is factored into its CR? This feat almost completely negates that aspect of the monsters defense.
Is the ability in and of itself OP maybe not but compared to every other feat Its definitely very strong. Too strong I would say.
I think the problem we are having is where we want to draw the line at what is too strong for a single feat. Let me see where your line would be. What is to much for a single feat to do but at the bare minimum? at one point is it just a bit to much? like say weapon specialization giving +10 instead of +2.
Considering the fact that that the bow's enchancement does not pass to the arrow anymore, I don't see an issue with it. It is now somewhat of a tax feat. I say "some what" because it is actually useful, and something people would take anyway unlike combat expertise which people tend to take only to get to other feats.I just think there is a better way of handling it. I mean it is far better then the rest of your options.
Actually I know what would help with this. We could check out the DPR Olympics for archery. Compare average DR for monsters at various levels. Then we could see the effects with it and without it. Then we could run some statistics to see how much of an effect it has.
So What would be to much of an effect? If it increased DPR by say 30% vs creatures with dr or maybe 50%? (which seems way to much for a feat to me.) what would be the fair amount for you guys? at what point would you say THIS IS TO GOOD FOR A FEAT.
The DPR Olympic math assumed that the enhancement ability to bypass DR transferred to the arrow. I could go back and run it again based on the new FAQ. Personally I don't like the new FAQ so whether or not it does to much depends on how someone feels about the enhancement not being able to be passed to the arrow for DR purposes.
I'm going to use the fighter numbers as an archer because I wont have to deal with smite or a ranger's subjective burst damage, once I find the archer fighter used in the first DPR thread.
well power attack also gives a penalty to hit. a pretty good penalty really. your lower attacks are effected quite a bit by it.
well pummeling style is close for sure it does still make you have to use unarmed which is almost always worse. Its also melee so its harder to full attack. Still I think it is a strong feat selection if your going to use unarmed but its not quite as good as clustered shot. Just because of the nature of ranged attacks vrs unarmed. there is plenty of reasons ranged is better then unarmed but people have already listed those.
Also surely pummeling style is not where you draw the line on too strong for a feat?
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I got 78.30 without clustered shots, and assuming the fighter is withing 30 feet for a 10th level fighter.
Assuming DR 5 the DPR drops down to 60.90
Assuming DR 10 the DRP drops to 43.5
If you apply cluster shots vs DR 5 the DPR is 73.3 since it only applies once over the entire round.
If you apply cluster shots vs DR 10 the DPR is 68.8 since it only applies once over the entire round.
So against DR 5 that can not be overcome there is about a 12 point increase from clustered shots.
For DR 10 the difference is about 25.
Basically the higher the DR the more clustered shots matter, but if not for this FAQ it was a "nice to have", and less of a necessity. How necessary it is depends on the GM and party composition.
edit:"cluster shots" should be "clustered shots"
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well power attack also gives a penalty to hit. a pretty good penalty really. your lower attacks are effected quite a bit by it.
well pummeling style is close for sure it does still make you have to use unarmed which is almost always worse. Its also melee so its harder to full attack. Still I think it is a strong feat selection if your going to use unarmed but its not quite as good as clustered shot. Just because of the nature of ranged attacks vrs unarmed. there is plenty of reasons ranged is better then unarmed but people have already listed those.
Also surely pummeling style is not where you draw the line on too strong for a feat?
I don't really care for pummeling style either, but more because of how easy it is to jack up a PC with it. I know I can just not use it, but I don't have an in-game reason not to. Most PC's dont depend on DR to survive so clustered shots is not so bad against them.
Now that I think about it, maybe the new FAQ is not really good justification for clustered shots.
Ideally I would prefer something like penetrating strike for everyone, not just fighters. I think that would be more reasonable than clustered shots. It would let the archers negate some DR, but not let them laugh at it.
well power attack also gives a penalty to hit. a pretty good penalty really. your lower attacks are effected quite a bit by it.
well pummeling style is close for sure it does still make you have to use unarmed which is almost always worse. Its also melee so its harder to full attack. Still I think it is a strong feat selection if your going to use unarmed but its not quite as good as clustered shot. Just because of the nature of ranged attacks vrs unarmed. there is plenty of reasons ranged is better then unarmed but people have already listed those.
Also surely pummeling style is not where you draw the line on too strong for a feat?
I don't really care for pummeling style either, but more because of how easy it is to jack up a PC with it. I know I can just not use it, but I don't have an in-game reason not to. Most PC's dont depend on DR to survive so clustered shots is not so bad against them.
Now that I think about it, maybe the new FAQ is not really good justification for clustered shots.
Ideally I would prefer something like penetrating strike for everyone, not just fighters. I think that would be more reasonable than clustered shots. It would let the archers negate some DR, but not let them laugh at it.
That I agree with. And thank you for running the numbers. It doesn't look like it had the effect quite as large as I had in mind but I doubt much else from a single feat would effect DPR that much. Penetrating strike seems like the better way of doing it.
Piercing DR is only relevant if there is DR. I checked Bestiary 1 and found the following:
1) CR 7: 8 monsters with serious DR (better than DR x/magic), 24 (!) without
2) CR 10: 3 vs. 7
3) CR 13: 4 vs. 5
4) CR 16: 2 vs. 2
5) CR 19: 1 vs. 2
I picked CR 7 as a starting point because there are many monsters at this value and Clustered Shots requires BAB 6. The +3 increment saved me some work while it still should be able to show the development over the course of levels: Monsters are more likely to have DR, but it's far from a given. Because some creature (sub)types tend to be free of (serious) DR: Dragons, giants, animals, magical beasts etc..
Maybe it's just B1? So I dived into B5, randomly picked CR 16 and... found 5 vs. 5. Also keep in mind class levels often don't add DR - if the GM takes a low CR monster and upgrades it, I assume the result is less likely to have DR than a monster from a Bestiary.
Back to Clustered Shots: If the feat adds +50% DPR (very generous assumption) vs. an average foe with DR, but you assume only a 50% chance of serious DR, it's effectively just +25% DPR. Still a lot, but one magnitude worse than +50%.
Don't get too hung up on situational bonuses. Blind-Fight is something you can pick up on level 1, without any prerequisites, and it gives you +50% DPR vs. foes with total concealment (50% miss chance turns into 50%^2 = 25%). It's just that these situations are rare...
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Because if you don't have all 15 feats you won't be any good at it?notice how i said get the most out of it not that you wouldn't be any good at it but without them your missing out on a significant dpr boost
There comes a point where more damage is overkill. *shrugs* She does great without 15 feats.
well power attack also gives a penalty to hit. a pretty good penalty really. your lower attacks are effected quite a bit by it.
well pummeling style is close for sure it does still make you have to use unarmed which is almost always worse. Its also melee so its harder to full attack. Still I think it is a strong feat selection if your going to use unarmed but its not quite as good as clustered shot. Just because of the nature of ranged attacks vrs unarmed. there is plenty of reasons ranged is better then unarmed but people have already listed those.
Also surely pummeling style is not where you draw the line on too strong for a feat?
Getting effective benefit from Clustered Shots requires multiple attacks, which implies Rapid Shot, which imposes a penalty. If you really want the most out if it, Deadly Aim as well, which scales like Power Attack if I'm not mistaken... So that means getting the best result requires a higher penalty than 2h Power Attack melee. Manyshot is what adds to it without any penalty.
If 15 feats were the minimum, archer paladin wouldn't be as good as it is. That's an extremely overblown expectation for sure. Rangers only just get 15 in total (and Endurance as a freebie), and they're not necessarily spending them all on combat stuff. Neither are they necessarily weak for not spending it all on those feats (I'm playing a skill ranger with plenty of potency in combat, and I'm not missing too much as a result for not taking combat feats at every level. In Reign of Winter as well).
For ranged builds to function you basically only need; Point-blank shot (or not if you can bypass the prerequisite for Precise Shot), Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot (which only bow users get). Clustered Shots is probably now also required just because of DR issues being a much bigger thing. That's 5-6 feats, which isn't too bad since you only need Precise Shot and Rapid Shot to actually function with a ranged build. The rest is mostly gravy. Paladins get to enjoy a whole slew of additional things outside of their feats to make them work, so this is even better for them, and they probably don't need Clustered Shots as badly either.
That I agree with. And thank you for running the numbers. It doesn't look like it had the effect quite as large as I had in mind but I doubt much else from a single feat would effect DPR that much. Penetrating strike seems like the better way of doing it.well power attack also gives a penalty to hit. a pretty good penalty really. your lower attacks are effected quite a bit by it.
well pummeling style is close for sure it does still make you have to use unarmed which is almost always worse. Its also melee so its harder to full attack. Still I think it is a strong feat selection if your going to use unarmed but its not quite as good as clustered shot. Just because of the nature of ranged attacks vrs unarmed. there is plenty of reasons ranged is better then unarmed but people have already listed those.
Also surely pummeling style is not where you draw the line on too strong for a feat?
I don't really care for pummeling style either, but more because of how easy it is to jack up a PC with it. I know I can just not use it, but I don't have an in-game reason not to. Most PC's dont depend on DR to survive so clustered shots is not so bad against them.
Now that I think about it, maybe the new FAQ is not really good justification for clustered shots.
Ideally I would prefer something like penetrating strike for everyone, not just fighters. I think that would be more reasonable than clustered shots. It would let the archers negate some DR, but not let them laugh at it.
Manyshot gives a good boost to DR. How much depends on things such as the extra damage from deadly aim and the strength bonus applied to a bow. It's possible for it to get 7+ for the sample fighter I used. At higher levels it goes up.
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well requires rapid shot as a preq too I think. but deadly aim is its own feat and you still can still benefit quite a bit from CS without it.
If opponent has dr 15 it adds 15 damage to every attack you make past the first. at level 20 deadly aim adds + 12 to all attacks so one attack less is effected and a higher bonus Plus no -6 penalty. For one feat with 2 requirements to get it and lets face it if your an archer your getting those two feats anyways.
My big issue I think is it can make some dm's change their encounters. Oh I can't use that it won't last a round. And that really bothers me that one feat could have that much of an (no pun intended) impact.
Anyway I have about said all I can think of about it. I think it is clearly a very strong option. It gets significantly better the better your opponents defenses are and makes any kind of DR irrelevant. I don't like It I feel there is better ways of doing the same thing feats like that work to unbalance the system. If you say its already un-balanced system then then nothing is going to be OP to you so their is no point in arguing it.
I wasn't arguing for it anymore just noting Manyshot.
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I wasn't arguing for it anymore just noting Manyshot.
It wasn't in response to your post it was just an after thought.
Clustered Shots
helps you penetrate dr with out using special arrows that costs gold. So lets look at the gold cost of penetrating DR.
DR for damage types
DR/P cost 1gp for 20
DR/B cost 2gp for 20
DR/S cost ??? i did not find any slashing arrows. So can't penetrate with out Clustered Shots.
DR for materials
DR/silver cost 3 gp for 20 (or 41 for 20 if the +2 for ammunition is for each arrow)
DR/cold iron cost 2gp for 20
DR/Adamantine cost 1201 gp for 20 (i would use durable arrows here 61 gold for each arrow instead and they can be used more then once )
Dr from magic and alignments
DR/magic a +1 weapon costs 2000 gp and you will get this any whey
Dr/alignments 18k for 50 arrows of one alignments (they also add +2d6 dmg) So it's not only to by pass DR
You could also use Blanch
Adamantine 100gp for 10 arrows
Cold iron 20 pg for 10 arrows
Silver 5 gp for 10 arrows.
See how much gold you save by using this feat. Also note that this feat is worse for you then using the right arrows.
lets get 100 of the normal arrows 5+10=15 gp
also for the material ones. i use the adamant blanch. 1000+200+50=1250 gp
So we are up to 1265 and can bypass all materials and all dmg types except slashing.
I will count the magic DR thing for free because you will get a +1 bow.
the holy and so one arrows gives +2d6 dmg as well. That makes the pricing different. But we know that a +1 weapon thing can add +1d6 extra dmg. the dmg is specific for holy arrows. But that doesn't matter a lot because you only use them when they have full effect.
Counting them as full price. so 18002.5 gp for 50. You probably don't get need more then 3 different types. so lets set the price at 54007.5k.
if there where arrows that only removed DR/alignment and not added DMG they would probably be +1.
then it would be 8002.5 for 50 arrows. 24007.5 gp
So you could say that this feat is worth around 25272.5 to 55272 gp.
With this you can over come any DR that is not slashing.
So one feat that can save you more then 50k gold. Sounds great right.
The thing is. most of the cost is from the alignment thing.
A +5 weapon by passes all alignment dr, The archer will also get the +5 bow and spend 50k on it.
So a fighter can get one weapon for 50k and one feat "Weapon Versatility" to over come all DR
An archer can buy arrows for 50k to over come all except slashing.
the archer will spend 50k to get a +5 bow.
A archer will have to pick a lower level bow to overcome DR/alignment. or pick one feat.
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So if we look at the fighter with a +5 weapon and Weapon Versatility feat. he will overcome all DR
If we look at the archer that has a +5 bow and a Clustered shoot. He will still be hit by DR. So 5 or 15 DR per turn instead.
If this feat would not exist Archers would have to buy arrows to overcome alignment DR 50 costs 18k. that would be money that the fighter could spend on something ells.
Clustered-Shots is a feat tax for archers now that you can't get dr penetration from your bows bonus.
The only gold cost that is relevant for arrows is Adamantine that you can blanch and they cost 10gp for each arrow and alignment that cost 360 gp for each arrow.
So the feat gives an archer lower amounts of book keeping. if you still think it's to strong.
Have it work like this in your home game.
It can only penetrate dr/alignment if you use a +5 bow.
TLDR
its a feat tax.
Keep in mind that Clustered Shots is more valuable for a Crossbow character than a Longbow/Shortbow character since there is a lot more different types of Arrows than there are Bolts, which means the options for Crossbow characters (i.e. Bolt Aces) for penetrating DR aren't anywhere near as good or effective.
This is true for aspects other than overcoming DR, such as Trip Arrows, Bleed Arrows, and so on, and I'm baffled that there aren't identical options for Crossbow characters.
Personally, I blame Lord of the Rings; most specifically Legolas, since such characters overshadowed the concept of Crossbows being potentially cool or viable for Pathfinder.
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Keep in mind that Clustered Shots is more valuable for a Crossbow character than a Longbow/Shortbow character since there is a lot more different types of Arrows than there are Bolts, which means the options for Crossbow characters (i.e. Bolt Aces) for penetrating DR aren't anywhere near as good or effective.
This is true for aspects other than overcoming DR, such as Trip Arrows, Bleed Arrows, and so on, and I'm baffled that there aren't identical options for Crossbow characters.
Personally, I blame Lord of the Rings; most specifically Legolas, since such characters overshadowed the concept of Crossbows being potentially cool or viable for Pathfinder.
As far back as I can remember, crossbows were really only useful for folks who weren't proficient with regular bows, which kinda mirrors real life where the big benefit of crossbows are that they require far less training to use well. Granted, bolt ace and the crossbow mastery feat reduce the big drawback with crossbows, but it basically amounts to taking the same feats as a regular archer "plus one more."
EDUT: But if you like the flavor, hey, you do you. Nothing wrong with that.
I suppose with the new "FAQ" on bows Clustered Shot got more powerful. I had an archer player go through all of Rise of the Runelords when I GMEd it and never take the feat because it was considered sub-optimal...
Same player played a Brawler through Mummy's Mask and with Pummeling Charge, Pummeling Strike and Rhino Charge it was a far more effective damage dealer than the archer.
Melee will out damage archers if both get full attacks. The advantage archery has is that you almost always get your full attacks, and you dont have to worry about difficult terrain which can stop most charging builds. Even with a pounce build you can be tripped or disarmed on way in.
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if you want to get dex to damage crossbows are the only ranged weapon other than guns that can do itKeep in mind that Clustered Shots is more valuable for a Crossbow character than a Longbow/Shortbow character since there is a lot more different types of Arrows than there are Bolts, which means the options for Crossbow characters (i.e. Bolt Aces) for penetrating DR aren't anywhere near as good or effective.
This is true for aspects other than overcoming DR, such as Trip Arrows, Bleed Arrows, and so on, and I'm baffled that there aren't identical options for Crossbow characters.
Personally, I blame Lord of the Rings; most specifically Legolas, since such characters overshadowed the concept of Crossbows being potentially cool or viable for Pathfinder.
As far back as I can remember, crossbows were really only useful for folks who weren't proficient with regular bows, which kinda mirrors real life where the big benefit of crossbows are that they require far less training to use well. Granted, bolt ace and the crossbow mastery feat reduce the big drawback with crossbows, but it basically amounts to taking the same feats as a regular archer "plus one more."
EDUT: But if you like the flavor, hey, you do you. Nothing wrong with that.
Mmm...true, and while it's generally a not insubstantial amount of damage, I really haven't found it necessary to have sexy to damage. I guess it cuts down on the MADness a little.
I think the biggest problem with the feat is that it eliminates a weakness that doesn't feel unfair to begin with. In a balanced game some builds can be stronger or weaker against specific opponents and if archers struggled against elementals for example (DR x/-) that doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Its not like you only meet such enemies.
On the other hand stuff like Fickle Winds or sundering the archers weapon are effective tactics, but easily take the fun out of the game as they flat out deny the archer to use his favorite style at all. So in essence its too binary between standing there full-attacking enemies and doing barely anything at all. Damage reduction would be the gradual balance tool that slightly changes a characters usefulnes in one direction or the other and might allow the STR based bararian to shine, while not completely negating others (unless it is really high of course).
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Mmm...true, and while it's generally a not insubstantial amount of damage, I really haven't found it necessary to have sexy to damage. I guess it cuts down on the MADness a little.
Ok, so that was obviously autocorrect not liking "dex," but that was funny. I think that's how I'm going to refer to "cha to damage" from now on.
Also figured out how I didn't notice, because my first thought on seeing "sexy" was "Wait, I could've sworn I paid attention to make sure autocorrect didn't eat it?" It didn't autocorrect after I finished "dex," it autocorrected after I finished "to." Slick program.