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Long story short our party ran up against a few cocooned things. the sorcerer dropped a fire ball in to this web and the web lit on fire instantly burning up the cocooned prisoners. I specifically told the Sorc to have a care where she drops that fire ball. now we discover that the cocooned things were people. what the heck am I supposed to do now?
that is murder in my mind. but people are responsible for there own actions and as a paladin I understand that not every body is lawful good. but how do I resolve this with out PVP or Lawful stupidity.
the thing is the sorc has run into this before and knew damn well there were bodies in the cocoons,
Either quit adventuring with said Sorcerer or seek regular Atonement for continuing to associate with her, RAW.
Out of game, make it clear to the other player that this really isn't acceptable. If s/he stops doing stuff like this, fine. Otherwise you may need to get a different character or a different group...
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Were the people in the cocoons alive prior to fireballing?
first time it has happened, the sorc is getting bored with his character so he got a little, meh.. about stuff saturday.
Well if the sorcerer has run into this before and knew they were people then yeah they are possibly guilty of murder and possibly committed an evil act.
Compare to modern situation you are a in a SWAT team and a killer has hostages in the room tied to beds and under sheets. One of the team throws a grenade into the room killing the bad guy and the people in the beds, very bad.
Now change that up and let the SWAT member know that the people under the sheets from studying this killers past behavior are likely already dead or are so screwed up mentally and physically that they will never have a good day again and the grenade might just be a mercy killing for them.
It goes from an evil act to a more neutral one, but either way the guy didn't listen to his teammate so can not be counted on in tough situations and there are probably laws against killing the cocooned people in whatever society you live in.
So yeah can't trust sorcerer that is major problem, and they probably didn't care about the cocooned people and it was an evil act.
Plus much better spells then fireball 9 out of 10 times, they need to look at spell lists and be more creative.
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I had a paladin in a new group. This group...was not being very friendly (they had two characters prepared for me to choose from and play - "The B~~%%" (paladin) or "The Slut" (sorceress).
Yes. Those were the names they had for characters for me.
Anyway, we were fighting vampires, and my character (given the way things started off, there was no way I would play a character the group considered "fair game" in this group...so I picked the paladin) handed one party member my mirror to use. After the fight, the character wouldn't give back the mirror.
"What're you going to do about it?" the player said with a smirk. "You're a paladin, you just have to sit there and take it, or you'll fall."
Well. I was fine, at this point, with burning bridges. I simply smiled and said "I will arrest you, and drag you back to town to stand trial for theft. If you resist, I will be forced to subdue you. If the rest of the party wants to assist a thief, I would be forced to defend myself from their misguided defense of a criminal. Or you could give me my 10 gp mirror back."
My paladin got her mirror back. I was informed by the GM that "his game already had too many players". Heh. Like I would want to come back and play with this group of jerks again anyway. But...that is always an option. there's a point at which you are probably going to be forced to say "Choose, guys. Either this murdering sorceror is your friend...or the soldier of righteousness."
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Plus much better spells then fireball 9 out of 10 times, they need to look at spell lists and be more creative.
For the love of God can we not turn every thread that even tangentially mentions mages into a spell optimization discussion?
Well I would make sure that the cocooned things were in fact live prisoners. If they were in a huge spider nest and there's no guarantee how long they were there, then they could likely be dead or not even people but baby spider pouches. She may have done you a favor.
Otherwise, yeah its tough as a paladin to maintain group cohesion when the other players aren't also LG and get bored or decide to antagonize the paladin. Play it as your character would and explain to the players that you have to do what you would in-character. Hopefully everything will work out.
It's fair to assume that non-squirming cocoons are basically dead. I mean, realistically, people aren't wandering into spider lairs, so these are catches, and spiders aren't going to catch 50 people, keep them all alive and feed a little off each one - not to mention that anyone in a cocoon is going to die of thirst after a couple days.
So unless a giant wave of spiders invaded a town and cocooned everyone in sight and you got there the very next day, assuming that there might be live ones in the cocoons is a bit of a stretch on your part. Were the cocoons squirming? Were they making muffled 'help me' noises?
You berate the sorcerer for carelessness and explain your line of reasoning. But given that your group is risking their lives to presumably eliminate a nest full of people eating giant spider things, prioritizing cleaning out the nest over saving any (unlikely) survivors isn't unreasonable. You cannot hold people to your Paladin code, it's supposed to cover what YOU do.
At any rate, death by fireball is a lot cleaner a death than by being slowly sucked dry. Talk about lingering psychological trauma.
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I read situations like the OP and I can't help but think, "This isn't a problematic situation for paladins, this would apply to any good character that was actually good."
How has the rest of the party reacted to the sorcerer's behavior?
(also, as asked upthread, were the coccooned victims still alive?)
Were the people in the cocoons alive prior to fireballing?
yes they were moving, the sorc is a good buddy of mine, so its not a huge deal he is a good guy, technically he has run across cocooned victims before but My character doesn't know that. he convinced me that they were "fire spiders" he rolled a 20 and I rolled a 7 but afterwards there were clearly bodies. he wasnt doing it to be a jerkbear he was just bored and made a bad call.
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I.
Ok, this has nothing to do with what happened in game. You said yourself- the Sorc was bored so they dropped a fire ball.
-> that <- is the problem. What happened ingame was an effect of something that happened OOC, and it needs to be dealt with in said fashion. Getting all up in arms about it IC isn't going to solve the underlying problem.
Guy's being a problem cuz he is bored.
You need to find out if the guy wants to be there, or if he's just interested in anotehr type of game, or what. if this was a singular occasion maybe you just need to have a friendly chat about what is or isn't acceptable behavior to cure boredom.
"but I was bored so I had my character slaughter 20 innocents. yawn. didn't work, still bored."
He's going to continue to be a problem until you fix the problem. Nothing your Paladin can do, can fix it.
II.
But on the off chance he's just bored there's no or little Rp going on (no clue how much or how little you guys RP), I'd recommend against "Ditch the sorc or paladin and keep going). No, this is an excellent opportunity for you to take this wayward sorceror and basically work with and on them for the greater good. IC (if that is the problem) you can work with him to see the problems his snap decision has made.
If he is a sorc I'm betting his int and wis arent' exactly topping the scale, so to speak. Guy needs to learn about actions and consequences and the right and wrong way to do things.
Good doesn't abandon evil to be evil- it tries to teach it the proper way to do things. To bring them over to the good side. (and to take their cookies. why does evil have to have such good cookies?!)
just my .02. or probably my .04.
-S
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first time it has happened, the sorc is getting bored with his character so he got a little, meh.. about stuff saturday.
This is your problem. Sorc player is bored and doesn't care. One of two things you can do really. First, maybe consider taking a break from the game for awhile. I have no idea how long you have been playing this same game. Maybe try a few one shots or even board games. This is great for recharging the batteries and getting you back into the mood to play PF. Second less attractive action is asking the player to leave the group. May be a case of incompatible play styles. Player might not want role play experience but a hack and slash. It happens to even our best friends but I tell you if this is the case get it over with sooner than later.
I talked to him, all is good, no need to leave the group or kick any body out. every thing is okay.
You berate the sorcerer for carelessness and explain your line of reasoning. But given that your group is risking their lives to presumably eliminate a nest full of people eating giant spider things, prioritizing cleaning out the nest over saving any (unlikely) survivors isn't unreasonable. You cannot hold people to your Paladin code, it's supposed to cover what YOU do.
Well said. I would protect faces I know before faces unseen.
It's fair to assume that non-squirming cocoons are basically dead. I mean, realistically, people aren't wandering into spider lairs, so these are catches, and spiders aren't going to catch 50 people, keep them all alive and feed a little off each one - not to mention that anyone in a cocoon is going to die of thirst after a couple days.
So unless a giant wave of spiders invaded a town and cocooned everyone in sight and you got there the very next day, assuming that there might be live ones in the cocoons is a bit of a stretch on your part. Were the cocoons squirming? Were they making muffled 'help me' noises?
You berate the sorcerer for carelessness and explain your line of reasoning. But given that your group is risking their lives to presumably eliminate a nest full of people eating giant spider things, prioritizing cleaning out the nest over saving any (unlikely) survivors isn't unreasonable. You cannot hold people to your Paladin code, it's supposed to cover what YOU do.
At any rate, death by fireball is a lot cleaner a death than by being slowly sucked dry. Talk about lingering psychological trauma.
except they were squriming
I dont really want to discuss his actions. they are irrellevant. I want to discuss how i deal with it in game. how do I react what do I do?
what I did is say that is 1!, and if it happens again there will be consequences. and the loot we got I gave(some gold jewel encrusted rod) to the sorc and said you should donate that to charity to atone. but I leave it up to you.
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
another thing this player is a good friend of mine. he is not a lurch or some bored jerkbear, he wasn't doing it to spite me, he is probally the most bravest handsome man I know. he once saved a baby moose from drowning. it seems to me that folks are assuming he is jerk he is not . every week he bench presses 1000 pounds
I had a paladin in a new group. This group...was not being very friendly (they had two characters prepared for me to choose from and play - "The B~&!&" (paladin) or "The Slut" (sorceress).
Yes. Those were the names they had for characters for me.
Wow. Just wow. Please tell me these guys were 14 year olds who eventually grew out of it.
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Were the people in the cocoons alive prior to fireballing?yes they were moving, the sorc is a good buddy of mine, so its not a huge deal he is a good guy, technically he has run across cocooned victims before but My character doesn't know that. he convinced me that they were "fire spiders" he rolled a 20 and I rolled a 7 but afterwards there were clearly bodies. he wasnt doing it to be a jerkbear he was just bored and made a bad call.
He lied to you and then knowingly roasted helpless humans rather than try to save them and you dont think he was being a jerk? As a person who plays Paladins a bit I would explain to his character why what he did was wrong, request he pay restitution to the families of those he has slain, perform contrition for his sinful acts, and watch him closely.
Any more lapses in judgement would be settled with the sword.
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this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
another thing this player is a good friend of mine. he is not a lurch or some bored jerkbear, he wasn't doing it to spite me, he is probally the most bravest handsome man I know. he once saved a baby moose from drowning. it seems to me that folks are assuming he is jerk he is not . every week he bench presses 1000 pounds
Are we being trolled?
lol
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
another thing this player is a good friend of mine. he is not a lurch or some bored jerkbear, he wasn't doing it to spite me, he is probally the most bravest handsome man I know. he once saved a baby moose from drowning. it seems to me that folks are assuming he is jerk he is not . every week he bench presses 1000 pounds
Are we being trolled?
lol
no I am just being a smart alec. he really is a buddy
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
another thing this player is a good friend of mine. he is not a lurch or some bored jerkbear, he wasn't doing it to spite me, he is probally the most bravest handsome man I know. he once saved a baby moose from drowning. it seems to me that folks are assuming he is jerk he is not . every week he bench presses 1000 pounds
Are we being trolled?
lol
I am the yang to his yin. Like it or not Lawfull Good is not the only alignment out there. Thank God pleasant ville isnt real.
What is the sorcerer's alignment?
I know you're question is "How should my character behave?" but I think you're already doing a good job of that. In fact, with the statement "This is one!" and your suggested donation and atonement, I think you're doing as much as you can possibly do on your own. Anything more than that, and you're going to need the other player's consent.
he wasnt doing it to be a jerkbear he was just bored and made a bad call.That's the real problem here. My suggestion for how to handle this in character involves an out-of-character conversation first.
- Talk to your friend and ask if he's interested in a little limited PvP followed by making a new character.
- If he says "yes" then proceed to have the Paladin deal harshly with the wayward Sorcerer. Your friend might have a really good time playing the his character's slide into evil and ultimate destruction! That can be a fun scenario as long as both players are on board. It can be even better if the GM gets involved and helps the Sorc-player turn his character into a BBEG!
- If he says "no" and would like to keep the Sorcerer, ask what relationship he'd like his character to have with yours.
One of the things that makes the situation difficult is that the other player isn't really engaged in the game. Any in-character roleplaying I do with his character is likely to be ignored, or at least forgotten by the next week's game session. I really don't want to start PvP, but I've been tempted to "sleep" him the next time he tries to kill a helpless victim.
My solution as been to talk to the player outside of game night. He's convinced that his character sucks because of a couple bad calls the GM made, and he thinks he might have more fun with a different character. Since we also have a new player joining, my friend has decided to bring in a new character at the same time the new player joins.
I dont really want to discuss his actions. they are irrellevant. I want to discuss how i deal with it in game. how do I react what do I do?
what I did is say that is 1!, and if it happens again there will be consequences. and the loot we got I gave(some gold jewel encrusted rod) to the sorc and said you should donate that to charity to atone. but I leave it up to you.
Well, first and foremost, I'd be insisting on a "search first and fireball later" policy when it comes to squirming cocoons. You have a reason to disbelieve the character when it comes to that sort of suggestion now.
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
another thing this player is a good friend of mine. he is not a lurch or some bored jerkbear, he wasn't doing it to spite me, he is probally the most bravest handsome man I know. he once saved a baby moose from drowning. it seems to me that folks are assuming he is jerk he is not . every week he bench presses 1000 pounds
I love that last sentence, Lobo. He bench presses for great justice? :D
All in all it sounds like the conflict got resolved. If no one in the party causes the paladin to worry with their actions, what's the point in the paladin having a code? Its there to be tested, and for the paladin to have the chance to show people the error of their ways. If it were me, in game my paladin would not trust the Sorcerer's judgement ever again (unless it was shown to have improved). Out of game I would laugh about the situations and party strife that might ensue.
There's a balance between RP and being a dink. I might play my paladin as wanting the sorcerer to atone for the misdeed, but I would also try not to let it be the source of my paladin witholding help from the sorcerer. When someone's PC is on the line, its generally time to forget the past and work for the good of the group. Good paladins know where the line is.
Well, first and foremost, I'd be insisting on a "search first and fireball later" policy when it comes to squirming cocoons. You have a reason to disbelieve the character when it comes to that sort of suggestion now.I dont really want to discuss his actions. they are irrellevant. I want to discuss how i deal with it in game. how do I react what do I do?
what I did is say that is 1!, and if it happens again there will be consequences. and the loot we got I gave(some gold jewel encrusted rod) to the sorc and said you should donate that to charity to atone. but I leave it up to you.
the entire area was covered in a web that was my plan but my iniaative roll was suckzor so he went first.
Were the people in the cocoons alive prior to fireballing?yes they were moving, the sorc is a good buddy of mine, so its not a huge deal he is a good guy, technically he has run across cocooned victims before but My character doesn't know that. he convinced me that they were "fire spiders" he rolled a 20 and I rolled a 7 but afterwards there were clearly bodies. he wasnt doing it to be a jerkbear he was just bored and made a bad call.He lied to you and then knowingly roasted helpless humans rather than try to save them and you dont think he was being a jerk? As a person who plays Paladins a bit I would explain to his character why what he did was wrong, request he pay restitution to the families of those he has slain, perform contrition for his sinful acts, and watch him closely.
Any more lapses in judgement would be settled with the sword.
First off you dont know me so watch who you call a jerk friend. Second, I am fairly new to PF and had no idea Lawfull Good had to be strict in their justice. Last, I honestly had no idea what were in those cocoons, I knew there was a possability people were in them, I just wanted to keep my party safe. Though the act itself may have been "evil" I had good intentions.
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Wow. Just wow. Please tell me these guys were 14 year olds who eventually grew out of it.I had a paladin in a new group. This group...was not being very friendly (they had two characters prepared for me to choose from and play - "The B~&!&" (paladin) or "The Slut" (sorceress).
Yes. Those were the names they had for characters for me.
I was invited to the group by a gaming buddy. I *think* he just invited me without their okay, and they considered this game to be "boy's night out" and wanted me to leave? I hope they were being as...er..jerks on purpose, because if not, it means they didn't think this was horrible behavior.
they were all in their late 20's to early 40's, I would guess.
Look, if guys want a boy's night out game where everyone is crude, and if anyone plays a female character they're a crazy charicature (the mirror stealing PC was a female charisma caster of some sort played by a guy, and he played her as a nymphomaniac that would try to sleep with monsters mid-fight...), that's fine. Just DON'T INVITE WOMEN TO THE GAME then.
Long story short our party ran up against a few cocooned things. the sorcerer dropped a fire ball in to this web and the web lit on fire instantly burning up the cocooned prisoners. I specifically told the Sorc to have a care where she drops that fire ball. now we discover that the cocooned things were people. what the heck am I supposed to do now?
that is murder in my mind. but people are responsible for there own actions and as a paladin I understand that not every body is lawful good. but how do I resolve this with out PVP or Lawful stupidity.
the thing is the sorc has run into this before and knew damn well there were bodies in the cocoons,
Well...
This could be tricky and dependent on a lot of factors. JSUT becasue there were bodies in there does not mean they were alive, does not mean they were friendlies or allies/hostages...
If there were poison involved or if the spider had been hungry, he may have considered them dead already
Also, Even if he DID knowling chose to sacrifice them to save his own group... one evil act does not make the sorcerer evil by nature.
And regardless of the paladin's beliefs, the sorcerer still has Free will.
If I was the paladin in that situation, I would inform the Sorcerer that I disagreed with his decision, was displeased with his apathy towards others, and that I'd be keeping a closer eye on him to determine any future ramifications to the group.
Adventuring is a dangerous place... the victims had already been captured, webbed, and were being fed on.
Trying to rescue them is the GOOD thing to do... But I don't think it's overly fair to punish another player for 1) not being a paladin... and 2) not getting 100% of the hostages free...
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.
In that case Lobolusk...
I had a paladin in a new group. This group...was not being very friendly (they had two characters prepared for me to choose from and play - "The B~!!~" (paladin) or "The Slut" (sorceress).
Yes. Those were the names they had for characters for me.
Anyway, we were fighting vampires, and my character (given the way things started off, there was no way I would play a character the group considered "fair game" in this group...so I picked the paladin) handed one party member my mirror to use. After the fight, the character wouldn't give back the mirror.
"What're you going to do about it?" the player said with a smirk. "You're a paladin, you just have to sit there and take it, or you'll fall."
Well. I was fine, at this point, with burning bridges. I simply smiled and said "I will arrest you, and drag you back to town to stand trial for theft. If you resist, I will be forced to subdue you. If the rest of the party wants to assist a thief, I would be forced to defend myself from their misguided defense of a criminal. Or you could give me my 10 gp mirror back."
My paladin got her mirror back. I was informed by the GM that "his game already had too many players". Heh. Like I would want to come back and play with this group of jerks again anyway. But...that is always an option. there's a point at which you are probably going to be forced to say "Choose, guys. Either this murdering sorceror is your friend...or the soldier of righteousness."
Sounds like a stack of immature a*holes. It's jackmonkeys like that that make the very few female RPGs player skeptical and drive some of the curious folks away.
When you were handed those two options as player characters, you should have just up and left without a word. It was bound to get stupid.
this is in serpents skull at the vegipygmy's territory in the city of seven spears if that helps. put it in perspective.In that case Lobolusk...** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
yes on both accounts espically the second one my character was wink wink coughing after the encounter.
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Sounds like a stack of immature a*holes. It's jackmonkeys like that that make the very few female RPGs player skeptical and drive some of the curious folks away.
When you were handed those two options as player characters, you should have just up and left without a word. It was bound to get stupid.
Usually that's my choice. Why hang out with people who are jerks? And I would never have stuck around for extended play with these jokers. But this particular day I was sick of turning the other cheek. This day I decided to sit down and throw their idiocy back in their faces.
First I did a revamp of the character, commenting loudly every time I found a rules mistake as I optimized her. Then my character proceeded to kick ass as I unleashed my socially inept geek side and got super OCD on the rules. I...was angry, and I was not kind. I'm sure this cemented in their minds that all women are sluts or b@!*!es, but honestly, I was past caring at that point. And I was very pissed off at my "friend" for putting me in that situation, and not standing up for me against a!$@!!+ry of that level.
"But they're a great group of guys...you just have to get to know them."
No. No I don't.
good for you!
Did you just use the phrase @$$hattery? if you did you are my hero for the day.
That Shiz makes me laugh!
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First off you dont know me so watch who you call a jerk friend. Second, I am fairly new to PF and had no idea Lawfull Good had to be strict in their justice. Last, I honestly had no idea what were in those cocoons, I knew there was a possability people were in them, I just wanted to keep my party safe. Though the act itself may have been "evil" I had good intentions.Were the people in the cocoons alive prior to fireballing?yes they were moving, the sorc is a good buddy of mine, so its not a huge deal he is a good guy, technically he has run across cocooned victims before but My character doesn't know that. he convinced me that they were "fire spiders" he rolled a 20 and I rolled a 7 but afterwards there were clearly bodies. he wasnt doing it to be a jerkbear he was just bored and made a bad call.He lied to you and then knowingly roasted helpless humans rather than try to save them and you dont think he was being a jerk? As a person who plays Paladins a bit I would explain to his character why what he did was wrong, request he pay restitution to the families of those he has slain, perform contrition for his sinful acts, and watch him closely.
Any more lapses in judgement would be settled with the sword.
The story you are telling and that of your friend are not matching up.
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good for you!
Did you just use the phrase @$$hattery? if you did you are my hero for the day.That Shiz makes me laugh!
a$$holery, actually.
I get socially inept. I was the queen of socially retarded until my late 20s. But you can be a social idiot without going out of your way to be a jerk. ::shrug:: Oh well. There's a reason there weren't any women in that game. Maybe some day they'll learn. Probably not, though.
Long story short our party ran up against a few cocooned things. the sorcerer dropped a fire ball in to this web and the web lit on fire instantly burning up the cocooned prisoners. I specifically told the Sorc to have a care where she drops that fire ball. now we discover that the cocooned things were people. what the heck am I supposed to do now?
that is murder in my mind. but people are responsible for there own actions and as a paladin I understand that not every body is lawful good. but how do I resolve this with out PVP or Lawful stupidity.
the thing is the sorc has run into this before and knew damn well there were bodies in the cocoons,
This is easy. Spellcasters are often quite willing to cause collateral damage, and I've run into this during games before. I've let it fly, given scowls, that doesn't solve the trick. The spellcasters do not learn.
The solution is to work out where the people were from (you were out to rescue them I take it, or help a village or such-like), then incapacitate the sorcerer, take them to the village and have them tried by the local authorities for their crimes against the killed residents. It is, or would be considered now, manslaughter. They killed prisoners without concern, they must be tried. You should also give your honest opinion at the trial or town meeting.
It isn't lawful stupid, it is very clear. The sorcerer committed a grave crime and now they must answer for it.
How did the sorcerer know they weren't giant egg sacks ready to pop with killer swarms?
Even if he did know they were living humanoids, why isn't he making good use of his Bluff ranks and high Charisma with the above?
I get socially inept. I was the queen of socially retarded until my late 20s. But you can be a social idiot without going out of your way to be a jerk. ::shrug:: Oh well. There's a reason there weren't any women in that game. Maybe some day they'll learn. Probably not, though.
First, I'm really sorry you had to go through that.
Second, I'm a little surprised by that behavior. Some of my now-unfortunately-past group were the epitome of socially underdeveloped. My girlfriend (now fiance) used to drop in on our games just to sit with me for a while. It was like casting dispel crudeness on the entire room. Language, jokes, innuendo all immediately cleaned up.
Some people... [/threadjack]
IMO the paladin should play this as if the sorcerer did not know there were people in the web (which is partially true anyway). Perhaps you can console the sorcerer because he must be simply racked with guilt for something he had little control over... depending on how serious you all are about the game you could run around as the clueless paladin, or bring up the issue with the other player.
In any case, this is not a paladin only problem. Many groups I have played with have banned evil characters because many people have a hard time playing such a character and keeping the group going. I think this is a very similar problem to keeping the paladin code while partying with characters that are not also lawful good.
But you can be a social idiot without going out of your way to be a jerk.
Do you teach classes? I know a few folks who could stand to learn this way of thinking.
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I would have my Paladin find out who the dead people where and report it to the nearest local authorities.
Even peasant have a weregild price you have to pay both their families and who ever their Liege Lord was if you ccause their death.
So if the Sorc suddenly has to pay a 100 gold to the families of the dead peasants and another 100 gold to their liege lord for the "accidental' death of of some peasants or face being declared an outlaw,, the Paladin can rest at night knowing justice has been served.
And if the dead are of a higher social class, say Mn at Arms of the local Baron sent to see what trouble was going on, the price not only rises but the local Baron not going to be very happy with the Sorc, even after he is paid , not to mention the Restof his Men at Arms.
