The Advanced Race Guide and underpowered races


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Did underpowered monster races like goblins and kobolds get beefed up in the ARG? I really like the idea of playing a lot of these bestiary races but they seem so profoundly underpowered!

Grand Lodge

They didn't get any stat bumps if that's what you're asking. I didn't take a close look at their new abilities and alternates and don't have my pdf on this box so can't speak to those.


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I hope not -- there are enough of them already... before you know it they'll be trying for citizenship or something if they get more bumps.

The only bump a goblin or kobold desires is one on the head from an earthbreaker.


Says a clown and a monkey :(


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Hey if goblins and kobolds were so great, they wouldn't die so fast to adventurers and they wouldn't be so crappy.

It's almost like they are that way on purpose...

But I wouldn't expect great thoughts from a ghoul, I mean those things eat brains, not think with them.


I'd step in to defend the little goblins, having played one in a Kingmaker game, but I doubt the clown would care that I was successful in one of his games. :)

Scarab Sages

Goblins are underpowered? Not if you play a Dex based character. +4 Dex man, +4!
They're also sneaky beyond all reason. (+4 small +4 race +2 Dex bonus)

Shadow Lodge

they don't get stat bumps but they do get new feats, racial trait options, and archetypes that really make them shine. Goblins get a setting neutral write up of the dogslicer and the horsechopper as well as a crap load of feats for fire play as well as a pyro alchemist and biting focused barbarian. The kobolds really got some fun stuff including alternate racial traits that make them more dragony (gliding wings, energy resistances, etc.), feats to beef these up to stuff like fly speeds & breath weapons, some cool new gear, a gunslinger archetype that just oozes kobold, and a blood line just for kobolds that is like a cross between dragons and a trapsmith.

Shadow Lodge

Choon wrote:

Goblins are underpowered? Not if you play a Dex based character. +4 Dex man, +4!

They're also sneaky beyond all reason. (+4 small +4 race +2 Dex bonus)

yeah that all walks out with a +10 stealth mod before you even roll the dice which is always fun. I ran Mogmurch during jade regent and he had better stealth then all 3 of the rogues in our party with no ranks and an armor check penalty ^-^.

Contributor

doc the grey wrote:
Choon wrote:

Goblins are underpowered? Not if you play a Dex based character. +4 Dex man, +4!

They're also sneaky beyond all reason. (+4 small +4 race +2 Dex bonus)
yeah that all walks out with a +10 stealth mod before you even roll the dice which is always fun. I ran Mogmurch during jade regent and he had better stealth then all 3 of the rogues in our party with no ranks and an armor check penalty ^-^.

That's also a +10 regardless of your level; if you get a Goblin Rogue with 1 rank in Stealth, then you're looking at a total of +14 at 1st level. Goblin stealth-based characters are insanely competent at their job.


Azten wrote:
I'd step in to defend the little goblins, having played one in a Kingmaker game, but I doubt the clown would care that I was successful in one of his games. :)

No offense to you but being the best out of that bunch is a bit of a slap in the face.

Damnation by faint praise if you will.

Though that was a fun goblin I only agreed to it because I knew that you needed a handicap to put you even with the rest of them.

Dark Archive

So can anyone tell me more about these racial archetypes? Any interesting ones for gnomes?

Contributor

Abraham spalding wrote:
Azten wrote:
I'd step in to defend the little goblins, having played one in a Kingmaker game, but I doubt the clown would care that I was successful in one of his games. :)

No offense to you but being the best out of that bunch is a bit of a slap in the face.

Damnation by faint praise if you will.

Though that was a fun goblin I only agreed to it because I knew that you needed a handicap to put you even with the rest of them.

In my experience, precluding a statement with "no offense ... but" usually means you're being offensive. : /


I'm used to it by now. He'd rather say we were handicapped then admit the group was good.

Shadow Lodge

GnomePaladin wrote:
So can anyone tell me more about these racial archetypes? Any interesting ones for gnomes?

Umm the short answer is yes! the archetypes are awesome and full of flavor and as a gm make me want to build horrible things to throw at my party and wonderful characters to roleplay.

Some fun ones that I loved is a hobgoblin monk archetype, a summoner arch for half-orcs called Blood God Disciple, an archetype for clerics of evil outsider worship, a halfling monk arch, a tiefling magus arch that lets you mutilate yourself for better summons i believe, the aforementioned goblin and kobold stuff, and as for gnomes there's a gunslinger arch that lets them make their guns into crazy steampunky kind of contraptions I just started reading. If you are a fan of fluff and crunch that intermarry for your races to really make them pop this book is a great time.

edit: if you have more in particular either name them here or check the ARG product board as many people have already talked a bit about the stuff there.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Azten wrote:
I'd step in to defend the little goblins, having played one in a Kingmaker game, but I doubt the clown would care that I was successful in one of his games. :)

No offense to you but being the best out of that bunch is a bit of a slap in the face.

Damnation by faint praise if you will.

Though that was a fun goblin I only agreed to it because I knew that you needed a handicap to put you even with the rest of them.

In my experience, precluding a statement with "no offense ... but" usually means you're being offensive. : /

Of course I was being offensive -- I was talking, however the offense wasn't directed towards him as I said.


I consider the other three pf that game to be like-minded friends, Abraham. Which means it was an insult to me as well.

Gnoll Monk
Human Cavalier
Human Sorceress
Goblin Oracle

I was not the strongest of that group.


bump


Sorry but goblins are far from being under-powered. Kobolds maybe but not goblins. After watching a group of goblin ninjas at equal CR to APL nearly destroy a group of PC's makes me think they are just as good a racial option as anything else. Sure if you play the goblins as mindless psychos then they will be quickly dispatched. Give them even a tiny bit of organization and they can be deadly.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, goblins are crazy good. Kobolds could have used a bump, but I figured alternate racial traits would provide that. Sounds like they will!


Given that we get the numerical weight of each race and a huge list of abilities in the Race Builder section all you need to do with the lower powered races is bring them up to the rest of the party or bring the rest down to the lowest using the point totals.

As an alternative all you really need to do is dump the "Sneaky Rider" ability (6 points) and let the player pick other abilities with the 6 point refund it would give. (Within reason/ DM approval of course.)

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

This may be a stupid question, but what exactly is an "underpowered race?" What makes a race underpowered?

Dark Archive

gbonehead wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but what exactly is an "underpowered race?" What makes a race underpowered?

If it's build adds up to less than the 10pt standard.

Dark Archive

CrackedOzy wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but what exactly is an "underpowered race?" What makes a race underpowered?
If it's build adds up to less than the 10pt standard.

Da. Half-Orcs and Humans are certainly underpowered.

Wait, what?


*laughs* To think I got some flak along the lines of 'Bah, that's overpowered' when asking to play a Sylph in an AP (a whole whopping 6 RP, with at least one of the abilities being wasted or becoming redundant).


gbonehead wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but what exactly is an "underpowered race?" What makes a race underpowered?

Generally speaking, bonuses that don't benefit it much and a lack of synergy between its bonuses that lead to a failure to be especially good at any particular role.

Kobolds are an unusual example because their massive stat penalties make them actually bad at a lot of things, but a better example of the usual way a race ends up underpowered compared to other races might be the sylph (pre-ARG, since I'm told they get some rather good options in the ARG.)

Strictly speaking, a sylph should add up to the same number of points as the ifrit and the oread. However, unlike those two it lacks synergy between its abilities - its Elemental Affinity ability doesn't apply to any class that its ability scores are well-suited to, so either it's getting no effect from one of its major racial abilities or it's taking a class its ability scores are poorly suited to. Pre-ARG, a sylph is not strictly speaking a bad wizard, nor a bad sorcerer - but on the whole, it's going to be worse at either than a human, while an oread can find particular builds and concepts where it excels. One good use for racial archetypes in my opinion is to help compensate for this; for example, while it would normally be mechanically unsound to build a sylph druid (due to lack of useful bonus stats and a penalty to the always-valuable Con) the ARG introduces an above-average sylph druid archetype that helps to compensate and make the sylph druid competitive.

edit: Hah, that was posted while I was typing. Glad to see other people thinking along the same lines.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Okay ... I guess I kind of see, but I see two completely different explantions, I think.

1. Some of the core races don't add up as equal to other of the core races.

2. Other, non-core races are less powerful than core races (or other races they're being compared to).

#1 sounds like a variation on the "martial/caster disparity" arguments except with races substituted in, and I suspect the answer is the same as it always has been: "sure, the core races aren't perfectly equal. So what?"

#2 on the other hand, I don't get. Of course other races are going to be more or less powerful than core races, or each other, even at identical CRs; CR is just an approximation, not a universal law. Why would we need to do anything about kobolds being underpowered or sylphs not being equal to ifrits? This confuses me.

Since anyone using a non-core race as a PC race is running off the tracks anyways, why don't they just throw another build point or two on there if they feel the race is underpowered?


gbonehead wrote:
1. Some of the core races don't add up as equal to other of the core races.

This was one of the biggest complaints about the beta test - abilities had been weighted so that all the core races were 10 points, even when that meant so-so abilities cost more than really good ones. I assume from your post that this has been changed so that abilities are weighted better, even if it means the core races aren't equal in points?

Dark Archive

Kobolds are terrible. They really don't have much of anything that makes them decent for a PC race.

They are only 5 race points, but play even worse than that. Their skills bonuses are more suited for NPC use. Attribute bonuses are terrible of course.

Spoiler:

+2 Dexterity, –4 Strength, –2 Constitution: Kobolds are fast but weak.
Reptilian: Kobolds are humanoids with the reptilian subtype.

Small: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to
their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on
their combat maneuver checks and to Combat Maneuver
Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.

Normal Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Kobolds can see in the dark up to
60 feet.

Armor: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.

Crafty: Kobolds gain a +2 racial bonus on Craft
(trapmaking), Perception, and Profession
(miner) checks. Craft (traps) and Stealth are
always class skills for a kobold.

Weakness: Light sensitivity.

Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking only Draconic. Kobolds
with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following:
Common, Dwarven, Gnome, and Undercommon.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Bobson wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
1. Some of the core races don't add up as equal to other of the core races.
This was one of the biggest complaints about the beta test - abilities had been weighted so that all the core races were 10 points, even when that meant so-so abilities cost more than really good ones. I assume from your post that this has been changed so that abilities are weighted better, even if it means the core races aren't equal in points?

Oh, don't misunderstand ... I'm not trying to offer explanations; I'm the one who asked what being an "underpowered race" meant. As near as I can tell, there's two completely different explanations - I was just repeating what I think the two explanations given to me have been.

BYC wrote:

Kobolds are terrible. They really don't have much of anything that makes them decent for a PC race.

They are only 5 race points, but play even worse than that. Their skills bonuses are more suited for NPC use. Attribute bonuses are terrible of course.

** spoiler omitted **

I'm confused. What's your point, that somehow the ARG should have made kobolds as powerful as a standard, core PC race? Why would it do that? Kobolds have always been weaker than PCs. So have trout. I can't see why the ARG would make kobolds as powerful as PC races any more than I can see why the ARG would make trout as powerful as PCs.


gbonehead wrote:

#2 on the other hand, I don't get. Of course other races are going to be more or less powerful than core races, or each other, even at identical CRs; CR is just an approximation, not a universal law. Why would we need to do anything about kobolds being underpowered or sylphs not being equal to ifrits? This confuses me.

Kobolds are a special case - they're pretty blatantly put forward as a "joke option" that's just bad all around.

The thing with sylphs, though, is basically pushing it to a larger question of "is having underpowered options a problem?"

I'm going to digress a little here to address that larger question. A lot of people like to go "Well, I'm not a filthy powergamer, it's not a problem for me! I like concepts!" The thing is, for a real "filthy powergamer", it's not a problem either. If sylphs are mechanically weak, someone who only cares about being as powerful as possible just won't play sylphs and won't have any problem. There are also some players who genuinely just don't care whether their character can get things done or not, but they're a pretty small minority. Most players are in the middle - they don't really care about squeezing out every bit of possible power, but in general terms they'd rather their character be powerful than ineffective.

The effect of making a race underpowered is to penalize players who go "This race looks neat! I get such cool ideas from their backstory!" and are then disappointed when the character doesn't turn out as well as they imagined. I've seen it happen a fair amount, and I try to help other players tweak their characters to get them running the way they want, but ideally a player won't be penalized for looking at a race offered as playable and getting a neat idea out of it.

tl;dr: if a race is presented as being playable and on par with the other major playable races, it should actually be on par with the other playable races. If a race is presented as on par with the other playable races but it's not, that's lying to the player, and it's going to be the players who aren't "powergamers" who fail to spot it and get punished.

Dark Archive

Goblins are overpowered then? They are 6 race points. Take your pick.

Spoiler:

+4 Dexterity, –2 Strength, –2 Charisma: Goblins are fast, but weak
and unpleasant to be around.

Goblinoid: Goblins are humanoids with the goblinoid subtype.

Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size
bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1
penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus
on Stealth checks.

Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed
of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Skilled: +4 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth checks.

Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence
scores can choose from the following: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome,
Halfling, and Orc.

Everything goblins have actually are useful to build a PC race. Kobolds do not. Maybe kobolds are jokes, but I was hoping they were just good trap rogues/rangers or sorcerers. Their archetypes are a sneak attack gunslinger, and kobold bloodline for sorcerers. The bloodline is traps related with abilities to detect magic traps and set magic traps without spells. Perception skill bonus is good. The Craft is okay. The Profession is bad. I hate they get that huge of penalties for attributes. -2 STR sucks, but I can deal with that. -4 is huge, on top of a -2 CON.

Sczarni

Just because a race is in there doesn't mean it was meant for Players. A lot of this book CAN be used for players, but it is also designed to provide more fun and unique NPCs for GMs.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Benly wrote:
gbonehead wrote:

#2 on the other hand, I don't get. Of course other races are going to be more or less powerful than core races, or each other, even at identical CRs; CR is just an approximation, not a universal law. Why would we need to do anything about kobolds being underpowered or sylphs not being equal to ifrits? This confuses me.

The effect of making a race underpowered is to penalize players who go "This race looks neat! I get such cool ideas from their backstory!" and are then disappointed when the character doesn't turn out as well as they imagined.

Okay ... so what you're saying is it's a trap race, kind of like a trap feat.

I understand what you're saying (kind of like I've always understood what the people in the "trap feat" camp have been saying), but I just don't agree; I don't see any reason that balance has to be the law.

You're absolutely right that if someone chooses a less powerful race, they will have a less powerful character. On the other hand, in many, many games this is irrelevant. Not in every game, and not for every player, but in the cases where I've seen attempts at perfect balance, the result has been banality. I'd rather have it be the case that not every choice is optimal.

Now, it's a valid point, perhaps, that if that's the way it is on purpose (which it is, as has been stated over and over by the designers), then maybe there ought to be a better indication that's not as powerful. Maybe. I'm still not convinced, any more than I'm convinced all level 3 spells are equal or all martial weapons are equal, and none of those have a "user warning" attached to them.


If you DM allows for improved natural attack, your goblin barbarian with cap of biteychompchomp (ok thats not the real name) can deal 3d6 per bite..that's pretty good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In the case of the sylph, I have something to say. I'm okay with the fact that sylphs, oreads, ifrits, and undines are all generally weaker than the core races. However, I dislike that the sylphs are so much worse than the other three. As was said earlier, their stats don't synergize with their abilities and their abilities don't work well with each other. The other three elemental races have excellent internal synergy (or at least good). I'll leave the suli out of this, since they're not really a good comparison for anything.

Dark Archive

Ifrit and oreads are good.

Sylphs and undines are okay.

My point with kobolds is mainly they could be better, and not be good/overpowered. I dislike the extra painful STR penalty as well as the skill bonuses they receive.


gbonehead wrote:
Not in every game, and not for every player, but in the cases where I've seen attempts at perfect balance, the result has been banality. I'd rather have it be the case that not every choice is optimal.

It's actually quite possible for every race to have a distinct niche or two without being "the best race". Oreads are a good example. If you want to build the best possible melee cleric, you won't necessarily end up picking oread, but if you do their domain boost and good stats for the build make them competitive for the role.

I'm not saying every race should be the best, but they should at least be competitive choices.


So..Kobold Sorcerer Bloodline Arcane Trickster..sounds pretty fun actually.

Lantern Lodge

There a RP option to effectively remake the Dragonwrought cheese feat from Races of the Dragon? Add a +3 to all mental stats for kobolds?

Sczarni

Everyone is kind of right, but look at the Aasimar for example. Its one of the higher point races, but the truth is its not really that awesome. Yes it has 2 positive stats but no negative, BUT they are both mental. Yes it has a higher spell like ability, BUT how often will that be useful? If done right with the options set fourth for you any of those races can make a pretty nice character. They aren't meant to be 100% powerhouses and since they can't be used in PFS just add a few points to the kobold and get GM approval...


Castarr4 wrote:
In the case of the sylph, I have something to say. I'm okay with the fact that sylphs, oreads, ifrits, and undines are all generally weaker than the core races. However, I dislike that the sylphs are so much worse than the other three.

If the Ability Score Modifier is changed from Standard to Flexible (simply losing the negative modifier), then the Total Cost increase is:

Ifrits: 6 to 8

Oreads: 6 to 8

Sylphs: 6 to 8

Undines: 7 t 9

I hope that helps a little.


BYC wrote:
Kobolds are terrible. They really don't have much of anything that makes them decent for a PC race.

As much as I love love love love love kobolds, yes they are statistically gimped.

As they're a major race in my homebrew world I bumped them up to PC stats (+2 DEX and CON, -2 STR; "why does a race that does constant physical work have a CON penalty?" I thought), gave them a few adjustments to their abilities to bring them up to par (removing their light weakness for one).

Now granted if you're talking PFS that's not an option, but for a home game it works. I dont play PFS so it's not a big issue for me ;) Even then, I'd be half tempted, just because I like them so much.


You know, when a race's motto is basically "superior numbers or run!", I would certainly expect them to be weak individually.


scary harpy wrote:
Castarr4 wrote:
In the case of the sylph, I have something to say. I'm okay with the fact that sylphs, oreads, ifrits, and undines are all generally weaker than the core races. However, I dislike that the sylphs are so much worse than the other three.

If the Ability Score Modifier is changed from Standard to Flexible (simply losing the negative modifier), then the Total Cost increase is:

Ifrits: 6 to 8

Oreads: 6 to 8

Sylphs: 6 to 8

Undines: 7 t 9

I hope that helps a little.

But the points have nothing to do with what he was talking about. Either way, ifrits, oreads, and sylphs are all theoretically equal on points, but the oread and ifrit are much more powerful races because their ability scores synergize with the classes that their elemental affinity affects and the sylph's ability scores don't.


I am sensing much dissatisfaction concerning the Kobold.

What I am not reading is your solution.

IF the light sensitivity weakness is lost, the Total Cost increase is:

Kobold: 5 to 6.

If the Ability Score Modifier is also changed from Greater Weakness to Standard (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int?), then the Total Cost increase is:

Kobold: 6 to 9

While not optimal, it is somewhat improved.

(I picked Int at random. What do you think would be a good mental stat for the Kobold?)


scary harpy wrote:

(I picked Int at random. What do you think would be a good mental stat for the Kobold?)

I bumped up their CON to +2, since they're industrious little fellows, and reduced their STR penalty to -2. If you'd rather have a mental boon than everything boosting physical stuff, I'd agree Int probably works best, with Wis as a secondary choice (they're a practical people). I don't see kobolds (other than the sorcerers and chieftains) as particularly charismatic on average.

Dark Archive

Orthos wrote:
BYC wrote:
Kobolds are terrible. They really don't have much of anything that makes them decent for a PC race.

As much as I love love love love love kobolds, yes they are statistically gimped.

As they're a major race in my homebrew world I bumped them up to PC stats (+2 DEX and CON, -2 STR; "why does a race that does constant physical work have a CON penalty?" I thought), gave them a few adjustments to their abilities to bring them up to par (removing their light weakness for one).

Now granted if you're talking PFS that's not an option, but for a home game it works. I dont play PFS so it's not a big issue for me ;) Even then, I'd be half tempted, just because I like them so much.

I would just make it -2 STR, -2 CON, +4 DEX. That makes them playable like goblins. They still have poor skills and light sensitivity (which seems weird, I don't recall them having that before in previous editions).

Shadow Lodge

Well the non-core races were made before the idea of balancing them as PC's was put forward. Kobolds are traditional first level PC fodder, as are goblins. They were not meant to balance with core-races.

As pointed out, some non-core races synergise, but again they were not designed specifically to fill a role. The beauty of the ARG is that if it doesn't fit your concept then you can change it. Sylphs and other elemental races have a fairly fixed formular, which by chance rather than design is optimised for certain builds.

There are "custom" builds for standard pathfinder, but all the optional racial traits are subject to GM approval as the "Racial Subtypes" suggest. If I'm GM in a Forgotten Realms and I want to define Shield Dwarves and Gold Dwarves I can make fixed trait options that vary from the core races.

It will be interesting to see what filters through to PFS.


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Kobolds seemed like they could be interesting now due to the racial feats they can get that give them mini-dragon like abilities. It's atleast cool for flavor.

I want to be a Draconic bloodline Kobold sorcerer who takes those feats and uses the words of power system. He will be Dovahkiin.

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