Most players know a skeleton is hurt by bludgeoning weapons, but a character might not. What kind of a knowledge check would be rolled to figure that out?
Knowledge (Religion, for undead): "A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
The DC is generally 10+CR. If skeletons are common monsters in your campaign, it's 5+CR.
Depending on the party and the GM, the first useful bit of information might be the DR. Or it might be immunity, or undead traits.
Alternately, they could learn by trying to stab one. When they see it's not very effective, they could try another damage type.
10 + CR as indicated in the Knowledge Skill rules.
If skeletons are really common, then the check might be as low as 5 + CR. This low check allows it to even be made untrained, so the fighter (who probably didn't invest in Knowledge (Religion) with his 1 skill point) can know to switch from his greatsword to his greatclub.
Undead are covered by knowlege religion.
Information about undead is generally learned from Knowledge (Religion), yes.
Undead are IDd with Knowledge (religion).
the Knowledge skill actually lists what creature types are related to which skills.
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And for when the monsters have higher CRs, for every 5 points above the DC the Knowledge check is, the PC gets more info -- TBD by the DM.
For your skeleton, I'd say DC 5 for basic Undead stuff and then would give more info at DC 10, 15 & 20. That it has DR/ Bludgeoning I'd put at DC10 and that it is DR5 I'd put at DC 15. But the specifics here are up to each DM.
being said a INT check could be used for a fighter to realize that greatclub druid is doing more damage than he is with his greatsword...another reason not to have a DUMP stat.
I don't even make my players roll on this. It is blatantly obvious that a mace will do more than a slashing or piercing weapon to a skeleton.
More complex undead with DR, certainly K:R.
Yeah, knowledges are used to learn things about monsters.
I have a party with a know-it-all wizard, a actually-knows-everything bard, and a knows-everything-about-monsters inquistor. I basically just give them the freaking monster stat block on all but the rarest of creatures (for example: 31 knowledge religion check - what do Ghasts do?) It is funny and sad. Best part is throwing in modified or rare monsters that look like normal ones but have a few extra tricks, heh.
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And for when the monsters have higher CRs, for every 5 points above the DC the Knowledge check is, the PC gets more info -- TBD by the DM.
For your skeleton, I'd say DC 5 for basic Undead stuff and then would give more info at DC 10, 15 & 20. That it has DR/ Bludgeoning I'd put at DC10 and that it is DR5 I'd put at DC 15. But the specifics here are up to each DM.
If undead are super common in the region, it might even be a knowledge local or something.
The big thing with DR/Bludgeoning is not that they're hurt by bludgeoning weapons, it's that they're not hurt by slashing and piercing weapons. Seems similar, but just because I know I can break bones with a club (which is not really a big secret), does not mean I know that I can barely hurt them with a Rapier.
I've had many GMs that would have you make a perception roll after hitting with a weapon/attack that was subject to DR to notice that the creature you'd just clobbered didn't take full effect. The DC got easier the more times you hit the thing.
In this case of skeletons, it might go something like
PC: I hit the skeleton with my rapier, 1d6+1 damage
(rolls 4, +1 damage = 5 does not overcome DR5/bludgeoning
The DM might say something like "Make a Perception roll"
PC fails: DM says "Ok, who's next ?"
PC succeeds: DM says "You stab it where the liver would be, if it had one. You don't think you actually did any damage."
the fact that the greatsword (literally) isn't cutting it is obvious to any observer
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.(under dr in special abilities)
If undead are super common in the region, it might even be a knowledge local or something.
Knowing that there are undead in the region might be a Knowledge (Local) check, but not how undead work. That is always a Knowledge (Religion) check. It's the same as Knowledge (Local) might tell you that there are minotaurs in the region, but you will need Knowledge (Arcana) to figure out the abilities of the monstrous humanoids. (Local) isn't "tell me about things in this area" so much as it is "Knowledge (Nature) for humanoids". Skeletons are undead and thus need Knowledge (Religion) to determine abilities.
slightly off the topic. I know this was discussed ad nauseum a while back, but what are your thoughts on Remembering what you learned. IE. My rogue does not have religion and fights some skeletons. Doesn't do a lot of damage with his short swords, so he drops them and uses maces and "Wow these work well"
3 sessions later we fight skeletons again. Would you rule that my reaching for my maces right away are meta or not?
the fact that the greatsword (literally) isn't cutting it is obvious to any observer
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.(under dr in special abilities)
Yes, IF you attack them, you notice that.
I was under the impression that the situation was "look, an unsuspecting skeleton. Hmm, should I use my greatsword, or rather get my warhammer out of the backpack?"Knowing that there are undead in the region might be a Knowledge (Local) check, but not how undead work. That is always a Knowledge (Religion) check.
I said if they're extremely common, which is rare enough.
You'd most certainly have heard stories like "You know they just ripped through the guys with swords without even slowing down, but when they met those dwarves with their big hammers..."
For something as obvious as this, I wouldn't even call for a "knowledge undead" roll to realize that hammers are better than dirks at breaking bone.
Do you have +1 BAB? You know how weapons work. :)
Our local groups usually ask, when someone beats the DC, what they'd like to know, offense or defense. It usually works out well.
That's what we do as well. If someone rolled a 16 Knowledge(Religion), they would know it's a skeleton, all undead traits, and get one question which could be "What are it's special defenses?" "It has DR 5/Bludgeoning".
It's the same as Knowledge (Local) might tell you that there are minotaurs in the region, but you will need Knowledge (nature) to figure out the abilities of the monstrous humanoids.Fixed it for you.
Thanks. I always want to make Monstrous Humanoids Knowledge (Arcana) checks for some reason. I blame the crossovers with Magical Beasts...
3 sessions later we fight skeletons again. Would you rule that my reaching for my maces right away are meta or not?
Is it obvious that they're skeletons, very similar to the ones before? Or are these ones maybe wearing ragged strips of clothing, matted and bound to their bones by the mud they crawled out of. How sure are you that it's really a skeleton under there, and not a ghoul?
A pristine set of bleached bones rising out of a crypt could be very different from a battle-worn corpse still sloughing off it's skin as it shambles towards you in the night.
But if they're similar, there shouldn't be any problem knowing that you've fought these things before, and having a good idea of what worked well last time.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I'm a little puzzled by Mauril's statement
This low check allows it to even be made untrained [...]
Since when can a PC make a Knowledge check untrained?
3 sessions later we fight skeletons again. Would you rule that my reaching for my maces right away are meta or not?
I would the rogue have roll a Wis-Check - at least in previous editions the Wis stat was described reflecting what you'd learned and could memorize.
But usually no GM calls for such a roll.Ruyan.
Since when can a PC make a Knowledge check untrained?
Knowledge - "Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover."
3 sessions later we fight skeletons again. Would you rule that my reaching for my maces right away are meta or not?I would the rogue have roll a Wis-Check - at least in previous editions the Wis stat was described reflecting what you'd learned and could memorize.
But usually no GM calls for such a roll.Where does it end? What if it's next session? What if it's in the next room? Or 3 years later? Same roll? Penalties, bonuses?
if something scared the **** out of you, you would most likely either bury the memory of it far into your subcouncious (and even then you could end up doing things without knowing why you do them), or remember it for the rest of your life (baring amnesia and the like).
3 sessions later we fight skeletons again. Would you rule that my reaching for my maces right away are meta or not?I would the rogue have roll a Wis-Check - at least in previous editions the Wis stat was described reflecting what you'd learned and could memorize.
But usually no GM calls for such a roll.
That is silly, characters can learn things without needed to make a check.
My ranger knows much about both goblins (Know: local) and wolves (Know: Nature) but nothing about worgs(Know: Arcana) who look and behave much like wolves and often live with goblins.
Then I would assume that he confuses wargs and wolves, or knows worgs only as "those weird wolf things that goblins raise".
I have a cleric who has ranks in Knowledge:Religion and no ranks in Knowledge:Planes. He still thinks of himself as an expert on fiends though and has a tendency to conflate facts about undead and evil outsiders, and for the first few levels kept trying to channel energy to harm demons. I think that he will eventually take Alignment Channel and just say "I told you so" when people call him out on not knowing what he is talking about.
RPing a character's lack of knowledge skills can be a lot of fun, but DMs who are too draconican about policing for what they think is "meta" is more detrimental to a game than people who meta a little bit.
Seriously? That's a DC 6 check. Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (tactics), Heal, Survival... Craft (taxidermy), Craft (scrimshaw), Profession (butcher), Profession (cook)... pretty much any skill that involves understanding what animals are made of, or that involves any combination of animals-- living or dead-- with sharp things.
Seriously, DC 6. As in you can take 10, with an INT score of 3, to realize that heavy blunt objects are more effective at breaking bones than light, flexible, razor-sharp blades.
@Korimir: Just that it's not true.
Ever seen a butcher breaking bones with a club? Well, I didn't.
If such things as undead skeletons would exist, I bet your greataxe will destroy them more efficiently than a club.
On the other hand, you propably need the right angle and the right momentum to destroy bones walking around. Could be easier with a bludgeoning weapon.
It's just a game mechanic. There's no need for too much real-world analogies here.
Seriously? That's a DC 6 check.
If undead skeletons are common monsters, then yes, that DC 6 Knowledge (religion) check would tell you one useful bit of information about them.
Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (tactics), Heal, Survival... Craft (taxidermy), Craft (scrimshaw), Profession (butcher), Profession (cook)... pretty much any skill that involves understanding what animals are made of, or that involves any combination of animals-- living or dead-- with sharp things.
There is no Knowledge (tactics). Knowledge (nature) doesn't really involve skeletons, at least not ones that walk around.
I don't think someone skilled at healing or providing first aid really encounters that many people who have exposed skeletal structure that's been smashed with blunt weapons.
While survival is about keeping safe in the wild, and skeletons could be encountered in the wild, I don't think knowing monster weaknesses is really what's intended with the skill.
I don't think someone who crafts taxidermy or scrimshaw uses a club or mace to smash through the bones they're working on. Likewise a butcher or cook. I've never smashed a skeleton to pieces with a hammer in my kitchen.
Seriously, DC 6. As in you can take 10
You generally can't take 10 in combat.
realize that heavy blunt objects are more effective at breaking bones than light, flexible, razor-sharp blades.
If you use that logic, then you should use it all the time.
The cook tells you that flexible sharp blades are more effective at cutting flesh than heavy blunt objects. Animals must have DR5/slashing.
The smith tells you that it's hard to cut iron, but easy to dent it. That iron golem must have DR/bludgeoning. Also, you heat metal in a forge before working it, so you should use fire spells.
That white dragon is basically a lizard, and because you know a lot about nature you know lizards are cold blooded. You should use cold spells to slow it down.
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If you use that logic, then you should use it all the time.
That white dragon is basically a lizard, and because you know a lot about nature you know lizards are cold blooded. You should use cold spells to slow it down.
That would actually be quite funny, if the GM was using the always-hilarious perennial 'albino red dragon' bait'n'switch...