Iirc, for rogues, Twf > str when full attacking with SA, but str >>> twf when not. So it depends on how ogten you get full attack SAThat's the general belief, but much of the time it simply isn't true. A finesse / TWF is generally -5 or so to hit behind a strength build, and that just puts too much of a damper on their damage.
(-2 to hit from TWF, -2 from having to wield 2 agile weapons as opposed to a single +3 weapon, and +1 from a feat that could've been used for Weapon Focus)
That's why the paladin is the perfect poster child for TWF, he gets a huge bonus to damage but still gets to keep his attack up.
Not sure I agree. If using agile weapons, you can really use strength as a dump stat, but dex can never be a true dump stat for a rogue. For a str rogue having Str 20/Dex 16 at level 10 or so seems decent, while a dex rogue can have str 8/Dex 24 or so. Having 8 dex means you're far too fragile (and slow on initiative).
Basically, TWF is far more SAD than THF.
I'd like to suggest Vivisectionist Alchemist using feral mutagen as an option :) 3 attacks per round with sneak attack and the ability to boost dex by 4 should make the list i would hope. :)
Also a good candidate for the agile amulet of mighty fists.
Dotting, Looks awesome!
Dotting, Looks awesome!
Should I be worried the next time you show up to play? lol! But seriously, nice job.
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I'd like to suggest Vivisectionist Alchemist using feral mutagen as an option :) 3 attacks per round with sneak attack and the ability to boost dex by 4 should make the list i would hope. :)
Also a good candidate for the agile amulet of mighty fists.
Good idea. I'll look into that. I've yet to fully investigate the options regarding Dex-boosting classes (Urban Barbarian and Alchemist specifically) but it looks promising. Will add to the build and class sections soon.
Also, just bought the Advanced Race Guide PDF, so I will probably be spending most of today looking through it to see if there are any new Finesse-boosting options.
I'd like to suggest Vivisectionist Alchemist using feral mutagen as an option :) 3 attacks per round with sneak attack and the ability to boost dex by 4 should make the list i would hope. :)
Also a good candidate for the agile amulet of mighty fists.
I suggested that in the previous thread and the beginning of this one. Somehow my suggestion for that w/ Agile AoMF turned into a "be a monk!" entry. Even though monks, dex, or str based, suck...
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I suggested that in the previous thread and the beginning of this one. Somehow my suggestion for that w/ Agile AoMF turned into a "be a monk!" entry. Even though monks, dex, or str based, suck...I'd like to suggest Vivisectionist Alchemist using feral mutagen as an option :) 3 attacks per round with sneak attack and the ability to boost dex by 4 should make the list i would hope. :)
Also a good candidate for the agile amulet of mighty fists.
I'm an idiot. Sorry, you did suggest this earlier and Alchemist is on my to-do list. I just don't know the Alchemist class as well as some of the others on this list, so I am doing a little more homework before adding to the guide.
My bad :)
Hey love the guide and have been drawing some ideas from it.
I think Goblins might make for good dex based trippers. Two reasons +4 to dex and a new racial trait from ARG which gives them a primary bite attack with which you can get another free trip attack (albeit at -5).
I think I'd start out with 2 levels of maneuver master monks then dip into Urban Barbarian for crazy DEX bonus and then continue on with Lore Warden. Could look something like this:
MMM 1 Imp Trip Finesse
MMM 2 CR
LW 1 Dervish Dance Fury's Fall
UB 1 Dex Rage
LW 2 Expertise Dodge Crane Style
LW 3
LW 4 Greater Trip Crane wing, maybe retrain DD if you have agile weapon
Assuming a 22 DEX at level 7 this buddies AC sans buffing when raging is 25 or 26 depending on Wis without armor so you can tack on Mage armor. His CMB for tripping is 28 and he gets 2 free trips on a Full attack one at minus 2 and one at minus 5. His to hit without equipment is +15 and he deals 1d4+8 with a simple scimitar. However you'll have to find a way to acquire more rage rounds a day and the build likely will not perform with a low point buy as you really want to to start with at least 17 DEX before race adjustments.
From Level 7 on you can consider duelist more barbarian or fighter levels. More barbarian levels would btw also grant you a bite attack while raging which would make the build work with other races as well.
The only really big issue I see is that you can not trip large folks.
I'm going to be playing a kitsune lore-warden in a level 6 game starting in a few weeks. I did something close to your lore-warden build. I can post how it goes if anyone is interested.
My build:
Strength 10
Dexterity 18
Constitution 14
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 9
Charisma 13
feats:
Weapon Finesse
Two Weapon Fighting
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Fox Shape
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Wielding Kukris.
Dotting, Looks awesome!Should I be worried the next time you show up to play? lol! But seriously, nice job.
Who let the DM's out of their cage again? :)
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I admit this is a pretty serious thread-necro, but I'm back to playing Pathfinder after spending a year running a campaign in a different system. My players and I finally started the last act of a campaign that I've been running since 2008 - started in 3.5, then adapted the PF beta rules, now playing a hybrid 3.5 + PF campaign - and two of the star PCs are finesse fighters.
I found my finesse guide while I was going through my optimization archives. I'm sure it's sorely out of date at this point, but if there's still interest, I'll resume work on the finesse guide, especially in anticipation of the finished Swashbuckler class and the promised "Dex-to-damage with weapon of choice" feat that was mentioned during the Swashbuckler playtest.
Thoughts and opinions? Will this help anyone if I bring the guide up to date?
I'm thinking about including an "Optional/Non-PFS" section that includes Dreamscarred Press stuff. Path of War especially supports finesse fighters in a serious way - a straight Dex-to-damage feat which is not dependent on the maneuvering/ToB-esque system. I ran that past my players and they all wanted that feat in my current campaign, as do I, and since you can buy the pdf with that feat for a pretty low price, I thought I might draw some attention to it for those who want finesse to be awesome in home games.
Plus, any build advice that applies to DSP's dex=damage feat will probably carry over to PFS-legal once the ACG drops and we have an official dex=damage feat.
The other thing that comes to mind for the "optional" section is Mythic Adventures, since Mythic Weapon Finesse also goes straight dex=damage.
I'd also be taking suggestions for more Core+ finesse builds that work in PFS or campaigns that use a similar books-allowed list.
TL;DR: I'm back after a looooooong hiatus, does anybody want me to bring the Finesse Guide up to date?
Current link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bp4Q2cJ-7BXfj94byBuAB7T53ihTO08Ku1PSa2M JFkg/edit?usp=sharing
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If you do update it, there are some great things to add that are missing. Piranha Strike is a alternative to Power Attack for light weapons. It is inferior to power attack, but it doesn't require that 13 str wiich is good for point buy.
Also, there is no mention of the Brawler archetype for fighters, that is one of the most effective finesse builds possible.
The ACG Swashbuckler is designed for finesse and will be the go to class for finesse builds once the ACG is released. You should really look at the playtest document if you haven't.
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If you do update it, there are some great things to add that are missing. Piranha Strike is a alternative to Power Attack for light weapons. It is inferior to power attack, but it doesn't require that 13 str wiich is good for point buy.
Also, there is no mention of the Brawler archetype for fighters, that is one of the most effective finesse builds possible.
The ACG Swashbuckler is designed for finesse and will be the go to class for finesse builds once the ACG is released. You should really look at the playtest document if you haven't.
Yeah, I planned to go into a lot of detail about the Swashbuckler. I followed the ACG playtest and the Swashbuckler forum discussions.
I thought I mentioned Piranha Strikes, but it's been over a year, so I could have imagined that. I'll add in Piranha Strikes.
Thank you for info about the Brawler. Those damage bonuses look like they're just the thing to make TWF do viable damage.
If there's anything else that I should add to the guide please let me know.
Fix anything that is about crane wing being good, useful, or holy.
That's on the to-do list. Sad that Crane Wing apparently can't be anything other than OP or too-nerfed-to-be-useful.
Keep the suggestions coming, I will update as time permits.
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It's been a busy week, but the guide now contains Brawler goodness and a clarification of how the Dex Magus compares to the Strength Magus.
I also crossed out all of the Crane Wing stuff for now. I never got to see exactly how powerful it was before the nerf, but it doesn't seem to be worth the feat slot post-nerf.
Also added some to-dos, including ACG classes, prestige classes, and base classes I hadn't yet considered or detailed.
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For PCs that rely on fighting defensively, crane style is still useful and probably a must (like Duelist and Aldori Swordlord PrCs and the fighter archetype).
There is also a corner case for the rest two feats if you have feats to spare, as it has been ruled that if the attack that you used crane wing for is a miss, you can use crane riposte. So it is not utterly useless, just overnerfed.
Thanks for the info. I hadn't really given it enough thought yet to decide if there was still a place for it, or builds that still wanted it.
When I get a chance, I'll write a section on the pros and cons of the new Crane style. My old text is still crossed out because that was written based on the old Crane style chain.
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You are welcome.
Urban Barbarians should probably be green at least, their ability to combine tons of Dexterity with great saves, spell sunder, strenght surge, come and get me and other great powers makes them very effective Dex-based characters.
Also, I think that you do not mention natural attacks at all. It is easy to get at least 3 of them and they are better than TWFing (full BAB and (almost) no feat investment, only downside the small crit threat range). With an agile AoMF you can make an effective natural attacker, especially if he has Pounce or a lockdown mechanism.
A properly build Beastmorph Vibisectionist alchemist with an agile AoMF (the Skinwalker race is best at this) is a prime example, qualifing alchemist as green at least too.
If you have any sample builds, or at least, build skeletons, I'd love to see them, as I don't yet know the ins and outs of these classes or the builds that would make them good finesse combatants. I will include them in the guide with credit to you and I'll be able to add the feats and abilities that enable the builds to work into the color-rated lists with some analysis.
On that subject, at some point I'm going to go through the thread and add the names of everyone who has suggested stuff to me onto a "credit goes to..." or "thanks to..." list, as a good deal of the guide has come from suggestions provided on these message boards.
Piranha Strike states "This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.". That means the -1/+2 for one weapon becomes -1/+1 for both weapons on a TWF. It does not say "reduced only on off hand". That kills its usefulness for TWF and Natural Attack builds.
/cevah
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Piranha Strike states "This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.". That means the -1/+2 for one weapon becomes -1/+1 for both weapons on a TWF. It does not say "reduced only on off hand". That kills its usefulness for TWF and Natural Attack builds.
/cevah
The way I've been reading it is that it was meant to match the wording of the Power Attack feat and the wording of the damage bonus for having a high Strength score.
The official text of Strength reads "Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus."
The official text of Power Attack reads "This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
Most of the rules and optimization discussion that I have seen assumes that only off-hand is reduced when adding Strength and Power Attack, and I had assumed that Pirhana Strike worked the same way. It does seem to be some murky ground - specifically, whether or not the slight change in the wording of PS was intentional or if it was intended to work in the same way that PA does.
I admit I could be wrong, but I have been inclined to assume it was intended to work the same as Power Attack. I'll add a disclaimer/warning about my possible misreading of the feat to the guide.
And if you (or anyone) can point me to official errata or game designer comments backing up either interpretation, that would be awesome, too.
Thanks!
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Updated the classes and builds section a bit to add some info about the revised ACG playtest version of the Swashbuckler and Slayer.
If anyone would like to contribute analysis or specific build lists directly to the guide, I would be open to adding sections from other writers into the guide with credit to your forum name (or whatever name you would like to be credited as). I can't play or test everything, especially since right now I'm mostly GMing home games and generally don't get the opportunity to play PFS outside of convention games.
Piranha Strike states "This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.". That means the -1/+2 for one weapon becomes -1/+1 for both weapons on a TWF. It does not say "reduced only on off hand". That kills its usefulness for TWF and Natural Attack builds.
/cevah
The way I've been reading it is that it was meant to match the wording of the Power Attack feat and the wording of the damage bonus for having a high Strength score.
The official text of Strength reads "Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus."
The official text of Power Attack reads "This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
Most of the rules and optimization discussion that I have seen assumes that only off-hand is reduced when adding Strength and Power Attack, and I had assumed that Pirhana Strike worked the same way. It does seem to be some murky ground - specifically, whether or not the slight change in the wording of PS was intentional or if it was intended to work in the same way that PA does.
I admit I could be wrong, but I have been inclined to assume it was intended to work the same as Power Attack. I'll add a disclaimer/warning about my possible misreading of the feat to the guide.
And if you (or anyone) can point me to official errata or game designer comments backing up either interpretation, that would be awesome, too.
Thanks!
The wording is identical between the two feats:
This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
So if the argument is that the language of Piranha Strike means both weapons receive a reduced bonus when TWF, then that same argument must apply to Power Attack. This isn't true, though. We know that PA while TWF results in a sum of 1.5 STR bonus (1 from main hand and .5 from off hand) and effectively 1.5 PA bonus (+2 from main hand and +1 from off hand). TWF is essentially equivalent to THF in these regards, except the bonuses are spread over two attacks instead of one.
Since Piranha Strike is identically worded, it stands to reason that it functions the same way. The 50% bonus reduction only applies to the off-hand attack.
Yep. Worded the same. Guess we have been playing PA as RAI and not RAW all this time. I agree they should act the same as they have the same wording. Problem is that the wording, as written, makes both horrible for TWF.
/cevah
In your guide, you say "Rogue: I would ask if World of Warcraft created this expectation that Rogues ought to be dual wielding damage maniacs, but I don’t want to start another TT vs. MMO flame war."
Well, I played a "dual wielding damage maniacs" rogue back in 1st edition, well before WoW. With a +5 shortsword in the main hand and a +2 Longtooth (dagger that acted as a shortsword for small characters like my halfling) in the off hand & dex high enough to cancel two weapon fighting penalties, he would sneak into position for +2 to hit from behind and 4x backstab on both weapons. DPS king of melee here.
There is a build with the Horizon Walker PrC (link) that had Domain Mastery and Extra Rogue Tricks to get incredible bonuses from it. I am talking attack and damage both at insane values. This makes any weapon insane.
/cevah
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The Flag Bearer feat states that you can carry a banner or flag for basically any group you belong to and other members of that group within 30 feet get +1 to attacks, damage, and saves against fear and charm, including the flag-holder. The only downside is that it requires a 15 Charisma, which is a bit of an investment. Sadly, the best classes and builds to take advantage of this are Bards, who already perform, which doesn’t stack. Still...somewhere, someone will make this work. It’s a legitimate option.
This isn't entirely correct.
The Bard's Inspire Courage gives a morale bonus against charm and fear effects, but a competence bonus for attack and damage. As such, the bardic performance bonus to attack and damage and the Flag Bearer feat would stack.
So is inquisitor just not a good class for finesse builds? I noticed it was missing from the guide.
No better/worse than the Paladin I think, though honestly I don't believe they should be considered a good choice either. You're always playing behind in feats so generally you want classes that get more unless you're a class that specifically benefits from a dex build (Magi with Spell Combat and Alchemist/Barbs with the very cheap Agile Amulet).
For the Alchemist and Barbarian it's worth noting that both of them can get easy access to Pounce through the Beastmorph archetype and Greater Beast Totem respectively. Very important in order to ensure you're getting all of those delicious full BAB attacks in every time you strike an enemy.
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Well, I played a "dual wielding damage maniacs" rogue back in 1st edition, well before WoW. With a +5 shortsword in the main hand and a +2 Longtooth (dagger that acted as a shortsword for small characters like my halfling) in the off hand & dex high enough to cancel two weapon fighting penalties, he would sneak into position for +2 to hit from behind and 4x backstab on both weapons. DPS king of melee here.
I dual wielded in 1st/2nd edition too. I remember a Fighter with Grand Mastery in daggers and a 23 strength from a girdle. Multiple attacks with a 2 speed factor -Dex and enchantment would shred almost everything. Enemy mages never got off spells because their high level spells had long casting times.
Yep. Worded the same. Guess we have been playing PA as RAI and not RAW all this time. I agree they should act the same as they have the same wording. Problem is that the wording, as written, makes both horrible for TWF.
/cevah
No, I'd agree the wording may be ambiguous, but it does not clearly mean what you claim. Your claim is that if you make an off-hand attack, then any attack you make receives only the 50% bonus. While that is one way to interpret the language, it is not the only way. It can also be read to mean only that specific attack is restricted to the 50% bonus. So there are two possible readings.
However, we unequivocally know what the intent of the PDT is: it is the latter not the former reading. There is no doubt about this. So, while the RAW might technically have two interpretations available and certainly could be made more explicitly clear (like many, many rules - that's the nature of language), there should be absolutely no doubt whatsoever how these feats function.
Arguing otherwise simply creates confusion where none exists. There are arguably two possible readings but context, examples, and other rules language makes it absolutely clear that only one of those readings actually has merit. Go with the reading that actually has merit.
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In your guide, you say "Rogue: I would ask if World of Warcraft created this expectation that Rogues ought to be dual wielding damage maniacs, but I don’t want to start another TT vs. MMO flame war."
Well, I played a "dual wielding damage maniacs" rogue back in 1st edition, well before WoW. With a +5 shortsword in the main hand and a +2 Longtooth (dagger that acted as a shortsword for small characters like my halfling) in the off hand & dex high enough to cancel two weapon fighting penalties, he would sneak into position for +2 to hit from behind and 4x backstab on both weapons. DPS king of melee here.
There is a build with the Horizon Walker PrC (link) that had Domain Mastery and Extra Rogue Tricks to get incredible bonuses from it. I am talking attack and damage both at insane values. This makes any weapon insane.
/cevah
I guess I just had different experiences. I didn't meet that many dual-wielding characters that weren't Rangers in 2e, but I've played more 3e than 2e by a wide margin. The first time I saw Rogue as "The DPS class" by default was in WoW. Before that I had always seen Rogue as the "Backstab/Sneak Attack and then find somewhere to hide" class since pre-3e backstab be enabled after a combat starts. I had assumed the tightly defined combat roles came from video games.
Either way, I can just cut that line in the next update.
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I'll probably do another big update after the Inner Sea Combat PDF is available to non-subscribers and I can take a peek to see if there's anything that looks interesting. Sounds like the Ustalavic Duelist archetype shows a bit of promise.
As far as some of the builds I haven't mentioned yet, there are a lot of them that I don't have experience with or knowledge of yet, but I'm trying to focus on the classes and builds where spending a feat slot on Weapon Finesse and pumping up Dexterity instead of Strength is a defensible choice to the hardcore optimization crowd, DPR olympics, etc., which means that builds that I'm rating green or blue and spending a lot of text on need to be able to compare favorably to "Falchion Fred" or AM BARBARIAN. My yardstick for "should this be blue?" is "Is this build at least 90% as good as Falchion Fred or AM BARBARIAN?" and green is generally "is this build good enough to not be completely outclassed by Falchion Fred and AM BARBARIAN?"
I've left off Paladin and Inquisitor so far for the same reason I've left off most Ranger and Cavalier stuff - there are some scary-good static bonuses that you can double up on with Two-Weapon Fighting, but a lot of them are restrictive enough that it would be hard to justify that as your main trick or default fighting style - Favored Enemy (or the x/day replacement ability that the Guide archtype gets), Smite, Bane & Judgment, Challenges, etc., seem to me like very good nova/burst choices that would leave a finesse warrior significantly behind the curve whenever they weren't nova-ing (or fighting their favored enemy in the case of Rangers).
It might be worth it to add different sections on various general groupings of strategies, but a lot of those, to me, look like they fall into the general category of "Win init, then nova", which means that they'll have to compare to blasters and Magi to make sure that the non-sustainable burst damage doesn't end up falling significantly behind a blaster-caster or Magus in damage potential or endurance.
Well, that, and I'm honestly still catching up on missing almost two years of Pathfinder while I was busy running campaigns in other games, and currently keeping up with my home group, who are playing PF with 3.5 books allowed and finesse-boositng house rules in a 15+ level campaign.
Hey, FacePo, nice guide!
I was wondering if you think WF Mounted Combat is viable and what build you would recommend. I was thinking Roughrider would be sweet with really high Dexterity levels because they get to use their Ride level as their mount's effective AC twice a day + a reroll, wouldn't you say that's worth a try?
Many thanks!
What is this swashbuckler class? I understand it's not out in any of the books yet, so no page in the d20 site. Can you direct me to some links as to what this is?
As for the guide, seems overall solid. I would argue that a rogue with the swashbuckler archetype (a lot of things named swashbuckler) and improved two weapon feinting, giving you sneak attack every round. This way you get weapon finesse and two combat feats as rogue tricks, putting you together with the fighter until level 7 with feat progression, AND you have evasion, which screams finesse fighter. I haven't studied this option further, so I don't know, but I think it can lead somewhere. This option can be great in a high skill adventure.
Unarmed attacks and natural attacks are light.
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Your guide incorrectly states that the improved combat maneuver feats chain off of combat reflexes. Trip, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Feint, Reposition, and Steal all chain off of Combat Expertise, which has 13 Int prerequisite. Bull Rush, Drag, Sunder, and Overrun chain off Power Attack. No combat maneuvers chain off combat reflexes.
EDIT: Looks like you only got this wrong in one place ("How to do better than damage" number 1). In the later recommendations section it seems to be correct.
I've just noticed this guide for the first time on Broken Zenith's page.
A couple notes - Power Attack can be gained without prerequisites with a two level Ranger dip, either from the Two-Handed Weapon combat style (like every other ranger, the best style chain is the one that seems most counter-intuitive given your stats) or one of the Faithful combat styles from Inner Sea Combat.
Urban Barbarians make incredibly good Dex fighters, assuming they are built to get dex-to-damage without having to spend money on an agile weapon (because you want a +2 Courageous Furious weapon ASAP). No other class can come close to the Dex score of an Urban Barbarian in a controlled rage. Here's a build I made by way of Aldori Swordlord PrC. It could be simplified a fair bit by just Dervish Dancing I'm sure.
Also just found this guide... An option that I am surprised to not find mentioned at all is slashing grace... A little more open-ended than Dervish Dance in weapon choice but less damaing and requires three feats total. Planning on using it to shore-up an investigator who has, for story reasons, a negative strength score...
