We have a monk that's telling me, that with snatch arrow he can catch a heavy crossbow bolt and throw it back as attack, doing damage like the crossbow. Wtf?? That doesn't make any since, the feat says thrown weapons can be returned. Any advice?
Arrows and bolts are not classified as thrown weapons. They are projectile ammunition for ranged weapons.
Furthermore, ammunition does not equate to being a thrown weapon. This is reinforced by the fact that shurikens are specifically described as being thrown weapons with the exception that they can be drawn as ammunition.
What they are trying to pull is essentially like trying to throw bullets at someone - it doesn't work like that.
Using Throw Anything, they could throw it, but it would NOT do full damage. Throw Anything allows you to negate the attack roll penalty for throwing an improvised weapon, but the object itself is still treated as an improvised weapon. Therefore, you'd have to find something of roughly the same size/weight for damage, and its range increment would be only 10-ft.
Since an arrow or bolt is a lightweight stick with a pointy bit on one end, you could rule that it is roughly equivalent to a dart or a javelin sized for a tiny creature. However, since an arrow or bolt is not designed to be thrown (whereas a dart IS), it's range increment would still be 10-ft for being an improvised weapon and it may even do less damage. I'd say 1d2 to 1d4 damage is about the most it could do thrown (i.e. that's a rather poor return on their economy of action unless it's made of a special material or some such).
Hmm, I have an alchemist with gloves of missile snaring and throw anything. I might have to try that.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Even with Throw Anything the damage the arrow or bolt would be treated as an improvised weapon. That means damage is based on a 'tiny' improvised weapon and the crit range is 20/x2.
Edit: I would probably let him 'recycle' any magical bonuses on the arrow since it didn't hit it's target. So a +1 flaming bolt would still be +1 flaming when he threw it :D
Maybe he was thinking of the 3.5E psionic feat Return Shot, which did essentially what he's describing.
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He would need the Throw Anything feat but this is quite accessible to monks so.... he may be right.
How would Throw anything solve it?
Snatch Arrows still states that only thrown weapons could be used for return fire as an immediate action.
Now if what you are alluding to is that he catches it, waits his turn and then throws it, that is fine. But I can't see how he could do it as an immediate action during the attackers turn.
Snatch Arrows (Combat)
Instead of knocking an arrow or ranged attack aside, you can catch it in mid-flight.Prerequisites: Dex 15, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use.
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.
Throw anything:
Throw Anything (Combat)
You are used to throwing things you have on hand.Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
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Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
An improvised thrown weapon is still a thrown weapon, so one could argue that snatched arrows can be immediately thrown back at the attacker as a free action.
Similar to what others already stated, 1d3/1d4 P dmg, 20/x2 crit, 10-ft. range increment, and -4 penalty to attacks unless you have the Throw Anything feat seems appropriate to the improvised weapon rules. Dennis' idea of 'recycling' a thrown snatched arrow's magical properties is a spiffy idea that I'm gonna steal. :)
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We have a monk that's telling me, that with snatch arrow he can catch a heavy crossbow bolt and throw it back as attack, doing damage like the crossbow. Wtf?? That doesn't make any since, the feat says thrown weapons can be returned. Any advice?
Use common sense. A bolt/arrow cannot be propelled anywhere close to the speed of a crossbow/bow. Draw a line in the sand and say it's just not effective.
But not a thrown weapon
But the object in questions ( arrow ) *is* crafted to be a weapon.
It's crafted to be ammunition not a weapon. Try throwing a bullet at a home invader instead of firing it from an actual weapon. Let us know how that goes for you. ;)
It's crafted to be ammunition not a weapon. Try throwing a bullet at a home invader instead of firing it from an actual weapon. Let us know how that goes for you. ;)
You show me the home invader that can catch the bullets I'm shooting at him when I'm invading, and I'm not going to underestimate anything he can do.
EDIT: Then as I'm luckily escaping the property in my soiled drawers, his wife pops onto the porch shouting gibberish and waving a piece of sushi. Right about the time the rubbery black tentacles are ripping my home-invading self into gobbets of flesh, I'd be thinking roleplaying: 1, real-world physics: 0.
I would say it is an improvised weapon. Throwing it might or might not require the Throw anything feat.
I would put it's damage at 1d3
- Gauss
Wow, monks just can't catch a break for nothin....
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Arrows say this:
Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows.
The rules also say this:
An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So, an arrow thrown back is going to be treated as a dagger of it's size for damage (most likely medium, so 1d4) + str, crit on a 20, and have a range increment of 10' and a max range of 50'. It would also be treated as improvised, and thus a -4 to hit, unless you have feats to adjust.
So, if your archer is greater than 50', the arrow will never make it, and if it is less, it is about 1/2 damage unless the character has a ridiculously high str.
KI Arrow would allow him to throw the arrow back up to 100 ft doing his unarmed damage
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So... can you throw back an alchemist bomb with Snatch Arrows? Seems like you can.Very last sentence of the alchemists bomb ability:
"An alchemist's bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else."
So, you can, but if the Alchemist has snatch arrows to, you would just be re-arming him.
You could throw the bomb back, it just wouldn't explode. It would be like throwing a vial of water or other inert substance, likely to no effect
What if the Alchemist has snatch arrows?
Father and Son game of catch the bomb?
You mean if someone threw his own bomb back to him?
Since Deflect Arrows only works once per round, when the Alchemist throws the bomb back the other would not be able to catch it.
So, that's a good reason to never try to throw the bomb back.
I wonder what the improvised weapon stats would be on an inert alchemical bomb. :P
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Wow, monks just can't catch a break for nothin....
Oh they can catch a break, they just can't throw it back in the same round.
So... can you throw back an alchemist bomb with Snatch Arrows? Seems like you can.Very last sentence of the alchemists bomb ability:
"An alchemist's bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else."
Bombs use the Throw Splash Weapons special attack. Splash weapons are ranged weapons so the Monk can snatch it, but they break on impact so the Bomb still goes off. The Deflect Arrow feat allows you to avoid the damage, but anyone standing nearby would get splashed.
So, wouldn't the act of catching the bomb then immediately render the bomb inert? (making it not blow up in his face as per normal splash weapons).
Sorry, more inclined to believe that the alchemist rules are meant to be that only the alchemist can activate the bomb, not that the bombs have some FoF tag that deactivates them if anyone other than the creator touches them with their hands.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would definitely let a monk return fire with a splash weapon.
@HippieKilla - That's debatable.
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.You can instead target a specific grid intersection.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8.
I suppose you can argue the first sentence "explodes on impact" covers it. "Impact" is usually synonymous with 'hit' which happens when you make a touch attack which should deal primary damage to the target. This is an interrupt that prevents that. It didn't miss, it didn't hit, nor are you targeting an intersection, the attack was interrupted. I'd say that splash weapons don't go off when you snatch them. This also very much fits with the 'theme' of Snatch Arrows and is cool.
When the rules (somewhat) support it, it's not broken, and it's cool.... then why wouldn't you run it that way?
Ok... definitely a gray area, not something I would ever argue over at the table for certain, but food for thought.
If someone with Snatch Arrows can catch a bullet in a manner that doesn't injure them, they should not have much problem catching a flask full of liquid without it shattering in their hand.
If it was a flask of acid, they could throw it back as an immediate action.
If it was an alchemist's bomb, it's now inert but they could throw it back as an improvised thrown weapon (stats subject to GM) as an immediate action.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, wouldn't the act of catching the bomb then immediately render the bomb inert? (making it not blow up in his face as per normal splash weapons).
Sorry, more inclined to believe that the alchemist rules are meant to be that only the alchemist can activate the bomb, not that the bombs have some FoF tag that deactivates them if anyone other than the creator touches them with their hands.
I think the intent it to prevent passing the bombs around the party and attacking others with them. How you jive that with Snatch Arrows and returning fire is up to you :D
... The fighter archer class ability st 19th level, does exactly this. The archer can catch the aerie and then fire it back.
@Dennis B
From a RAW perspective, the Deflect Arrows Feat states that when you would normally be hit with an attack you may deflect it so you take no damage.
As the thrower, I would argue that if my target used deflect arrow (or snatch arrow which is a continuation of the deflect arrow feat) the feat language supports that I still hit my target, he just doesn't take any damage. Therefore anyone around the target should be subject to the splash damage.
However, I agree that the hit vs miss determination is pretty vague and can be argued in either direction.
Or maybe I'm just biased because my current character is a Bomber...
From a theme perspective, being able to catch the bomb is fitting. But put yourself in the Throwers shoes. Just as the rule somewhat supports being able to catch it, it also somehwat supports that it hit but dealt no damage to the target. If this came up in my game I think I'd go with whomever was the PC. If the PC deflected it to save his companions from getting splashed I'd allow it. And If the PC threw it to nuke some evil monks, I'd let the splash damage go off.
Also, regarding bombs becoming inert, I think you are spot on with your assessment. The RAW states the bomb goes inert if used by anyone else. It'd be a hard sell to convince me that someone throwing the bomb is not using the bomb.
Arrows say this:
Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows.The rules also say this:
An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.So, an arrow thrown back is going to be treated as a dagger of it's size for damage (most likely medium, so 1d4) + str, crit on a 20, and have a range increment of 10' and a max range of 50'. It would also be treated as improvised, and thus a -4 to hit, unless you have feats to adjust.
So, if your archer is greater than 50', the arrow will never make it, and if it is less, it is about 1/2 damage unless the character has a ridiculously high str.
Like you posted, "An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon". Melee weapons are used in close quarters, not thrown, at which time they become ranged weapons. So yes snatching that arrow out of your quiver and stabbing the dirty orc in the gut, the arrow would do dagger damage as you ram it into his body. But to effectively throw an arrow with enough force to truly do the damage? That still remains the question. But I could agree with what some of you here have stated in regards to the damage being either a d2 or d3.