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| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is there any chance that anyone in the Paizo staff could, as a blog post, free eratta pdf, FAQ answer, etc., compile an official list of Pathfinder skills and whether you can take 10 or take 20 on each of them?
Crude example:
Skill | Take 10? | Take 20?
Disable | Yes | Opening locks only
Escape Artist | Yes | Yes
Perception | Yes | Finding traps only
Knowledge (Arcana) | Yes | No
Please God yes. I was greatly discouraged to see that after a dozen people FAQ'ing it, the last Take-10 thread got marked as "does not require an answer". Well... as many GMs and players are confused on the issue (particularly with the Knowledge/Loremaster interaction) an answer would sure be nice.
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I got the Take 10 list: Everything but UMD.
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The possibility to Take 10 is not skill dependant, it is situational.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
The whole discussion is what it mean "not in immediate danger or distracted". For someone breathing is distracting and you can't (in practice) ever take 10, for some other people noting less than a 15' guy trying to hack you is distracting, so you can take 10 in any situation when outside of combat. Most people use a middle ground and asses the single situation to see if you can take 10 or not.
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
@Diego - I understand. However, that doesn't make the Bards Loremaster ability make any more sense.
Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally.
..snipped for relevance..
The last sentence leads be to believe that the default for any character is to roll Knowledge skill checks.
Taking 20 is also easy. Can you safely perform the action 20 times without take-20? Then you can take 20.
Edit: That's what I get for leaving the thread open for an hour before replying...
I think the usual take-10 restriction can just about be boiled down to in-combat vs. not-in-combat.
As for Lore Master, that sounds off. I've never seen anything else that suggested you couldn't take 10 on a knowledge roll.
There is nothing in the Take 10 section or the description of the Knowledge skill that says taking 10 is not allowed. Compare the Knowledge skill to Use Magic Device - UMD specifically says you can not Take 10. Knowledge says nothing like that.
Its entirely possible that the bards Lore Master ability is in error - after all, Paizo also gave us the Prone Shooter feat, which removes the penalty on ranged attack rolls when firing a crossbow or firearm while prone. Except there is no attack roll penalty when firing a crossbow while prone. The feat does nothing.
It wouldn't be the first time Paizo made a totally useless ability.
Guess I can always tweak the Loremaster ability to allow them to Take 10 even under stress, but it would be nice to have an official ruling.
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Laithoron, James Jacobs has ruled so here.
Thanks Joana, I appreciate the linkage.
Its a very weird and situational ability, especially with how it interacts with the fact that you can't reroll knowledge checks.
It only does anything in combat, so you can take 10 to identify the thing that attacked you out of the shadows. So if the bard gets ambushed a kobold, you take 10. The wizard rolls, gets a 1 and doesn't know what it is.
However after the combat the wizard can't look at the body and go "Oh.. now that its not trying to stick a spear into me i know its a kobold. " he's failed a knowledge check and can't reroll it.
Best way to handle this and any rules in this game or any RPG you are going to DM is to figure out your personal stance on the issue and make your players aware of it day 1. Remind them that at the end of the day you are the law of the game and you do not want to waste game time debating rules. Sometimes it is a good idea to type these rules out that are controversial and present them to your players as a refferance.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Laithoron, James Jacobs has ruled so here.
Just quoting this post in case anyone missed it. (I was actually going to link the same thing!)
Remember, folks: the rules already tell you how to figure out when you can T10 or T20. Paizo staff has better things to do than to write an explicit list of things that you already have the formula to come up with yourself.
Laithoron, James Jacobs has ruled so here.Just quoting this post in case anyone missed it. (I was actually going to link the same thing!)
Remember, folks: the rules already tell you how to figure out when you can T10 or T20. Paizo staff has better things to do than to write an explicit list of things that you already have the formula to come up with yourself.
See, this is why it annoys people.
The rules are not NEARLY as clear as you'd like to make them out to be. Its one paragraph filled with vague generalities and guidelines, not hard and fast rules.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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See, this is why it annoys people.
The rules are not NEARLY as clear as you'd like to make them out to be. Its one paragraph filled with vague generalities and guidelines, not hard and fast rules.
Oh, I absolutely get that they're not 100% clear (I also think they're not supposed to be). But some aspects of them are clear, and asking for clarification on the parts that are clear (yet, interestingly, not on the parts that are fuzzy) is just silly.
The OP wanted a "Which skills?" list. The rules are not unclear as to which skills can or cannot be used wit T10 or T20.
Now, if the OP had asked for clarification on what constituted a threat or distraction, or what constituted sufficient penalty for failure to prevent T20, then we could have a discussion, because that is unclear.
But when a mechanic says you can use it when you make skill checks, you've got to assume it's all of them unless otherwise specified, not that there's a secret list that needs to be disclosed.
That part of the T10/T20 rules is not the unclear part.
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Now, if the OP had asked for clarification on what constituted a threat or distraction, or what constituted sufficient penalty for failure to prevent T20, then we could have a discussion, because that is unclear.
I apologize for not being entirely clear. What you posted (in the quote) was, sort of, my intent. And I showed that in the "crude chart" I provided. I realize, now, I could have been more explicit in my request, but I thought the chart would have demonstrated what I was looking for more accurately.
I got the Take 10 list: Everything but UMD.
...and Swim checks in stormy water.
One thing that I would also like clarified:
In both 3.0 and 3.5 it is explicitly stated in each editions PHB that a bard can not take 10 when using Bardic Knowledge. In the Pathfinder Core Rulebook this statement is missing. I don't know if that was intentional or not but it seems to be causing some of this "take 10" confusion. If you assume that the 3.0 and 3.5 limitation carries over into PF then the Lore Master class ability make sense, otherwise it does not.
The entire skill was re-written. Now it functions like standard knowledge checks.