To the OP, I believe you would need to clarify with your player what exactly the character believes.
Gods exist. I refuse to worship any of them.
Supernatural beings exist. They fail to meet the definition of ‘god’.
Supernatural beings do not exist. There is a scientific explanation for everything even if we do not know it yet.
Supernatural beings do not exist. Reports of their existence are false.
su‧per‧nat‧u‧ral
impossible to explain by natural causes, and therefore seeming to involve the powers of gods or magic
Now, remember, in PF "spellcraft" is a skill. Magic is predictable, explainable and perfectly natural. In PF, gods and magic, are not in fact supernatural.
Gods in Golarion are Outsiders that grant spells to mortals. That is the fundamental thing that sets them apart from angels.
Really, comparing Golarion gods to gods on earth is silly. We don't even have a solid definition of what a God on earth is. Seriously, try coming up with a definition. Now, does your definition include the flying spaghetti monster?
The term "Atheist" does not accurately translate into Golorian. You need to decide what it actually means first.
Personally, I think the devs should have come up with a different label for what they are calling Golarion Atheists. Using the word but giving it a very different definition is just confusing.
Okay, once again, it's time for me to go into annoying preacher mode. No, not about religion.
#$(%*#ing damn stupid, fracking laptop. I had a whole shpiel in response to this that was just deleted because instead of backspacing what I had written my palm was resting on the touchpad and it made me retreat a page in my Browser. ARRGH. I hate laptops!
EntrerisShadow, I want you to repeat this until it's engraved into your brain:
Control-A, Control-C.
Control-A, Control-C.
Control-A, Control-C.
...
As you're typing your message, every now and then - for example, whenever you pause for thought - you hit Control-A, Control-C.
Learn it. Know it. Do it. Live it.
And for a REALLY long message, I would even go so far as to suggest that you type it into a text editor and save it to disk. Often.
One day, you'll be thankful for forming habits like these.
(Mind you, I hate laptops too, for the same reason.)
Wouldn't that be "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from divinity" in such a setting? :)
Well said MagiMaster.
su‧per‧nat‧u‧ral
impossible to explain by natural causes, and therefore seeming to involve the powers of gods or magic
Now, remember, in PF "spellcraft" is a skill. Magic is predictable, explainable and perfectly natural. In PF, gods and magic, are not in fact supernatural.
Point.
I'd just like to point out that every form of bringing someone back from the dead is "divine" magic. So you might not want to die anytime soon, because as one of the people has already described on here, the gods in galorian are basically superpowered toddlers that haven't taken a nap lately.
That said, I don't think they're going to be bringing his soul back from the dead anytime soon
Who says to have to believe in the miracle to benefit from the result?
One can see things from a scientific/statistical point of view that others see as a miracle. Go back a few hundred years and CPR would have been thought of as a miracle. Go back a few thousand years and you would be thought of as a Shaman, wizard or maybe even a God (should you have the charisma stat to play it up).
[spoiler]
which is genetic and nobody chooses it,for the record.
I do not agree completely but that's off topic so I created a thread, if you're interested.
If this spreads I blame you :P
Interestingly enough, we regularly use PF and other roleplaying games as sort of a way to play with both political matters and gender roles. But, to each his own. I guess it's kinda Star Wars vs. Battlestar Galactica. :)
PS: Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean your way is "worse".
Because in Galorian the gods ARE real, and they grant the powers to bring you back. And has already been pointed out they have bad tempers.You can't compare it to cpr because you can do it on your own. If you want to compare it to real life it's like using the shock pads they use at hospitals to perform cpr without any electricity. Last time I checked yelling "clear!" and putting it to someone's chest does nothing if the electric company doesn't feel like giving you any power.
One could argue that a cleric could lay on hands, yell "clear" and the Diety may or may not give his vessel any power. Let's face it...the dieties are the clerics power company and you better pay the bills!
You are missing the point. Imagine if you were to step back in time and perform CRP a thousand years ago. That would serious blow someone's mind. One might assume they have divine power or they might be a god.
I think an atheist would be a perfectly fun addition to any group so long as they could play it well and have an explanation for why they think this way. The explanation need not even be logical or make sense because there are all sorts of thing that do not make sense. Like The Smurfs movie.. why would anyone like that??
This is a game after all
*edit What the what? My icon just turned into a smurf. LOL, how the hell....
One could argue that a cleric could lay on hands, yell "clear" and the Diety may or may not give his vessel any power. Let's face it...the dieties are the clerics power company and you better pay the bills!
You are missing the point. Imagine if you were to step back in time and perform CRP a thousand years ago. That would serious blow someone's mind. One might assume they have divine power or they might be a god.
I think an atheist would be a perfectly fun addition to any group so long as they could play it well and have an explanation for why they think this way. The explanation need not even be logical or make sense because there are all sorts of thing that do not make sense. Like The Smurfs movie.. why would anyone like that??
This is a game after all
*edit What the what? My icon just turned into a smurf. LOL, how the hell....
Lol I liked the smurph. And I'm not disagreeing in the least. I think this would be an awesome character to play.
I'm just saying that his gm might be a rather heavy rper and in that case you might reach a point where the gods stop rendering major services in his aid because he's claiming that either they're not gods or not worthy of being worshipped and as far as I've seen anything about gods in any universe, real or not, they're gonna be cheesed off at that.
Edit: Yay mine is too! :)
Are smurfs atheists? They're like anarchocommies after all, and those aren't known for their religious fervor!
Atheism is defined by a strict disbelief in any divine being. If your 'atheist' acknowledges the existence of the divine, then he is by definition not an atheist.
The writers would beg to differ:
The district guard is known as the Graycloaks, a unit
drawn exclusively from declared nonbelievers who
reject the divine authority of any god. Though most
Graycloaks admit gods exist and clearly have power, they
do not accept that these beings are anything more than
unusually powerful angels or genies or are in any way
worthy of worship.
I would also add that, since the "gods" of Golarion are not omniscient, imho, it would be up to the cleric [et al] to decide whether to wield the power granted to them to heal or otherwise aid a Golarion atheist, up to, and including, rez.
Edit: also, Smurf.
I would also add that, since the "gods" of Golarion are not omniscient, imho, it would be up to the cleric [et al] to decide whether to wield the power granted to them to heal or otherwise aid a Golarion atheist, up to, and including, rez.
Edit: also, Smurf.
I'll give you they're not omniscient. It's also pretty common to keep an eye on your more powerful clergy and 12th level is starting to get up there. You're well beyond the norm at that point. You're at the point of "a couple of us could flatten a moderate sized city, so we might be worth keeping an eye on"
I also submit that if you're getting powers from them means you hiding from them is going to be difficult.
*real-world atheist talking*
If he wants to play a character who denies the existence of the PF gods who actively involve themselves in mortal affairs and occasionally visit, he's going to be playing a character who is in willed denial of observed phenomena and calling it an atheist. Now, I can't control what you do at your table, but I would find that incredibly offensive, since it echoes a real-world view held by some religious folk that atheists are just "too blind to see God around them" (whatever that means).
If there's anyone at the table who is an atheist in real life, at least check with them before allowing that character into my game. I wouldn't allow that character in any more than I would allow someone to play a black character with an int of 4 or a gay character with a str of 6 who whines when he gets hit. Offensive stereotypes are offensive, and nobody should be having real-world feelings hurt over this game.
That said, if he just wants to play an atheist but has no idea how to make that concept work, I'd suggest following: "Gods and us are wrought from the same stuff, they're just more powerful. I see no reason to worship a being that is every bit as fallible as I am. Fear, yes. Respect, maybe. But worship? Not unless they can prove to me that they're somehow different from the most powerful mortals."
You're basically taking away the divinity of "gods" with that ideology, which is as close to real-world atheism as you're going to get in Golarion.
Better watch out, OP--this guy finds that character offensive.
I'm new to playing in Golarion, but in Forgotten Realms I had a long standing wizard who was a fairly ardent atheist. It wasn't that he was dumb or thick headed, it was just that he didn't find anything about the "Gods" to be anything other then really powerful creatures. In fact in his studies he found that many mortals went on to become "Gods". With that in mind, there was no way he was going to worship the ground some powerful being walked on. From that point forward it became his mission to become a "God". I mean if Mystra (or however it's spelled) could do it so could he.
That's how I picture most "atheists" would work in Golarion as well. It's not that they necessarily don't believe in the Gods, they just don't find a difference between them and powerful angels/demons/dragons/ and the hundreds of other super powerful beings.
|
Who says to have to believe in the miracle to benefit from the result?
One can see things from a scientific/statistical point of view that others see as a miracle. Go back a few hundred years and CPR would have been thought of as a miracle. Go back a few thousand years and you would be thought of as a Shaman, wizard or maybe even a God (should you have the charisma stat to play it up).
Yep. Penicillin is only 130 or so years out of the miracle stage.
1. The gods exists, sure. But what have they done for me? Or you? F*** the Gods, I'm in it for myself.2. I've seen mortal men fell entire swaths of orcs with a flick of the wrist and a fireball to the face. As far as I'm concerned, gods are just better wizards.
3. The Rahadoum Way. Worshiping the gods bring nothing but pain and misery and only furthers war and closed-mindedness with each other. I follow my own laws of morality and shall not be beholden to some immortal.
Example #1 would be a misotheist, not an atheist. (Although, personally, since it is still somebody who recognizes the role and divinity of god or gods, I'd still call that person a theist. Just a theist with a giant chip on his shoulder.)
#2 is the closest to actual, real-world atheism---although it still recognizes that gods exist and have an immense power, and would therefore not qualify. But it is about as close as I could understand somebody in Golarion being to a nonbeliever.
It's sad how people misuse the term atheist so often and in so many ways. The people of Rahadoum aren't atheists, really. There is a term for what they are, but I forgot it. Also, I am agnostic myself (just saying before anyone asks).
Given that we live in a world of Holocaust denial, Young Earth Creationism and Lunar Landing Conspiricies I think that Golarion should be allowed its whack-job atheists.
Let the player be a hard line atheist that insists there is no such thing as gods and make it clear to him that you will pelt him with evidence to the contrary and expect him to come up with semi-rational arguments to allow him to hold on to his atheism in the face of a physical manifestation of Serenrae commanding him to repent his wickedness.
Explain away all manifestations of divine power as swamp gas and weather balloons.
"Weren't you dead until that cleric raised you?"
"Nah. Just a weather balloon."
"But that doesn't make any sense! You were dead!"
"I know, it can be hard to tell the difference, but it's logical to assume the event was most probably a weather balloon. We have to remain rational."
I'll give you they're not omniscient. It's also pretty common to keep an eye on your more powerful clergy and 12th level is starting to get up there. You're well beyond the norm at that point. You're at the point of "a couple of us could flatten a moderate sized city, so we might be worth keeping an eye on"I also submit that if you're getting powers from them means you hiding from them is going to be difficult.
That's a fair point. I'd probably move the "direct attention" up a few levels, tho. At 12th, I'd assume that a lesser servant of the god would be serving as a "filter", automatically approving most requests, but passing "up the change of command" any questionable requests.
Unless a player, or GM, has a problem with the use of divine magics on members of a different faith, then I don't see there being much of an issue with using the same magics on a Golarion atheist, certainly not if doing so furthers the plans of the god, church, or cleric. Just being able to pay for the cost of a high level spell, such as rez, would probably be sufficient for most religions.
Basically, I think of it as a non-issue. An interesting RP component, but little more.
Also, Smurf.
|
I could totally see a character in Golarion being an atheist. Just because you call these immensely powerful extra-planar beings "gods" doesn't make them so. They live for an unbelievably long time, but they can be killed. They're sometimes petty, wicked, and downright cruel. They may possess power far beyond our own, but it is not limitless, nor is it entirely out of our grasp (thanks to the Starstone).
The "gods" of Golarion could very easily be explained as simply being powerful, extra-planar beings attempting to impose their will on others, but just because they and others call them gods doesn't make it so.
If there is anything "god-like" in Golarion, it is probably nature, or the will of the planes themselves. I have no indication that any given plane has ever been destroyed, and clerics and druids can derive their power from a seemingly unknowable and bottomless well of magical energy that has direct goals and ambition without having an actual physical body, so in that sense you could make them claim that the Planes are deific in and of themselves, but even then it isn't clear as to whether or not they have a will of their own, or if these attributes are simply ascribed to them by practioners of their magic.
I.E., one would think that a druidic master of Fire would be destructive and rash, but it's entirely possible that such a person would only wield their flames as a last resort and be quite peaceful and tame. Could they, in fact, be drawing their power from Sarenrae? Are the elemental domains unaligned? Do they have any sort of will of their own, or are they simply manifestations of magic?
I could see being atheistic in Golarion quite easily. I could see it just as easily as being an atheist on Earth.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Strictly speaking an Atheist doesn't believe that gods exist. That actually can work in Golarion since the gods take a direct hand in affairs so rarely that the only evidence of them is their clergy. One can simply assume they are a kind of wizard or sorcerer, they just cast magic differently perhaps the power of their belief is the catalyst rather than the power of the gods. Oracles don't need gods to cast so-called "divine" magic after all. Now PCs are exceptional and an Atheist PC might very well encounter a god or goddess in their lifetime at which point they may want to revise their stance.
An anti-theist is one who accepts that the gods exist, but doesn't believe them to be divine in any way. Just powerful outsiders who happen to be able to use mortals to conduit their agendas on Golarion. To a peasant a King might as well be a god, to an ant a man might as well be a god. Power does not equate to being worthy of worship. Again PCs are exceptional and upon meeting a god the PC might want to revise their belief or spit in that gods eye and say: "You're just a bully." They aren't wrong.
An agnostic would believe the gods exist, but doesn't really have one they venerate above the others. A Chelish fisherman might pray to Gozreh for calm weather when on his boat, pray to Erastil when his family is in strife and pay lip service to Asmodeus when the House of Thrune is looking to closely into his business. In the same way a PC could pray to Cayden when he's hung over, pray to Besmara when he's about to go a-pirating and pray to Pharasma as he's lying bleeding on a dungeon floor. What happens to such a character when they die probably is a product of the character's alignment and their behavior, more than their peity.
Strictly speaking an Atheist doesn't believe that gods exist. That actually can work in Golarion since the gods take a direct hand in affairs so rarely that the only evidence of them is their clergy. One can simply assume they are a kind of wizard or sorcerer, they just cast magic differently perhaps the power of their belief is the catalyst rather than the power of the gods. Oracles don't need gods to cast so-called "divine" magic after all. Now PCs are exceptional and an Atheist PC might very well encounter a god or goddess in their lifetime at which point they may want to revise their stance.
An anti-theist is one who accepts that the gods exist, but doesn't believe them to be divine in any way. Just powerful outsiders who happen to be able to use mortals to conduit their agendas on Golarion. To a peasant a King might as well be a god, to an ant a man might as well be a god. Power does not equate to being worthy of worship. Again PCs are exceptional and upon meeting a god the PC might want to revise their belief or spit in that gods eye and say: "You're just a bully." They aren't wrong.
An agnostic would believe the gods exist, but doesn't really have one they venerate above the others. A Chelish fisherman might pray to Gozreh for calm weather when on his boat, pray to Erastil when his family is in strife and pay lip service to Asmodeus when the House of Thrune is looking to closely into his business. In the same way a PC could pray to Cayden when he's hung over, pray to Besmara when he's about to go a-pirating and pray to Pharasma as he's lying bleeding on a dungeon floor. What happens to such a character when they die probably is a product of the character's alignment and their behavior, more than their peity.
I think your point might or might not be relevant depending on what the PC defines as being a god. It might very well be the case that a powerful PC has had direct contact with one of the Gods, and he can still easily be an atheist. The reason this is so is mainly due to the fact that you have to look at what the PC would define as God. In this neodreamweaver makes a good point.
I will say that your definitely misusing the typical use of the term anti-theist. An anti-theist is usually an atheist who takes it a step further and is against organized religion and theism in general (I tend to lean towards this position, but that's neither here nor there). It isn't a person who believes in a god, but doesn't believe their divine.
interesting discussion,
Just to add a bit more to it, heres the dictionary definition for God.1.(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being
2.(in certain other religions) A superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity
- a moon god
- an incarnation of the god VishnuI do like that they got Vishnu in there =)
anyways I often find in these discussions that people always resort to 1 as what a god is, whether for the pathfinder setting it is 2 that really comes into play.
For an atheist character you could work with these definitions, an atheist could work with definition 1, because in the pathfinder world there really is no supreme being/beings that exists as far as I know, therefore the atheist could fit into the game quite easily, by all means he could say I don't worship or follow any dietys, I don't want to encourage them. He can accept that large and powerful beings exist, even respect them, hell even be a follower of one or several, its simply a matter of the character seeing them as part of the world and the natural order of things while believing that no true god in singular or multiple actually exists just beings of incredible power, they may live, they may die, they may be replaced.
Now also remember, pathfinder is suprisingly flexible when it comes to this, by all means it is specifically allowed for a Cleric not to follow any gods, but a concept instead. theres actually a few games out there that use this where you play as a god with power over a single concept and need to be creative in how you apply that power over different situations.
Hell I designed a game a while ago where characters played dreams and nightmares who had powers related to the concept of their being.
If the PC's look at definition 1, then they very well might be complete atheists in Golarion. If they are using definition 2 they'd probably be theists.
It all comes down to perspective.
but the devil killed him.
So I guess that makes Asmodeus the supreme god.
This does not follow. If I kill Gandhi, do I become a pacifist?
This does not follow. If I kill Gandhi, do I become a pacifist?but the devil killed him.
So I guess that makes Asmodeus the supreme god.
Thats not a good comparison you know. pacificist is a label not a station. Supreme God is a station not just a label. You cannot inherit a label (besides names really). You can inherit stations.
Subtle difference in whether something can be passed on or not
Ok... So if I kill a holder of the Nobel peace prize... Or the president...
Gaining the power of your foe is not implied by the act of killing them. No more than a commoner would become a level 20 sorcerer if he got lucky and put in the finishing blow.
This is a great discussion, and applicable to the Marvel or DC universes as well. In the Avengers, Captain America is directly faced with two gods and denies them in the Quinjet.
Anyway, my vote goes for the PF atheists who believe that gods are simply more advanced beings with greater powers, not a truly divine being as religion perceives gods in the real world.