Its amazingly good more so if your one of the few non fighter classes with an at that gets weapon training like the sohei.
The fighter gets huge bonuses, in little tiny pieces. A nickel here, a dime there, a bit over yonder.
This is just part of the "bit".
Also, the more attack you can stack the better off you are because the more of your alternative attacks that hit, the more damage you to.
You are at -0/-5/-10/-15
the better and better you can kick up those -'s on the rest of them, the more and more damage you can do.
-S
One of the things is that they are a unique bonus. If you give up the ability they're tied to, it's a bonus that can't be gained. +2 isn't huge, but it's a difference. Hitting with later attacks makes a huge difference in DPR.
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So, am I missing something? is this items that good?
It stacks with everything. That's extremely relevant at later levels.
And, at a flat cost of 15k, it's cheaper than adding +2 to a weapon even as early as having a +1 weapon. So it's a cheaper +2 than almost any other +2 to both hit and damage in the game once youv'e grabbed a +2 Strength Item and a +1 Weapon.
So it's cheap and irreplaceable. A Fighter who gives it up will eventually be +2 behind permanently, with no ability to ever catch up, and by high levels isn't getting much of anthing for that 15k that's even in the same ballpark, advantage-wise.
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I still don't feel the benefit mixes well with other similar magic items for its price.
It's better than greater bracers of archery and cheaper, and all the othe rites that increase the effect of a class ability do it by at most 5 levels ( robes of arcane heritage: +4 to bloodline, monks belt: unarmed strike and AC benefit as 5 levels higher) . But gloves of dueling are effectively 8 levels higher. Counting as two increases to weapon mastery.
It's a lot, and I don't believe the limitation that "well it's only useful to characters with the weapon training class feature " is rational, of course they're the only ones that'll get it, just like sorcerers with a bloodline are the only ones that'll ever buy the robes.
I still don't feel the benefit mixes well with other similar magic items for its price.
So wait until a point in your adventurer's career when that +2 becomes worth the price, or he just has so much money to burn that they do not care.
The gloves are not only flat-out amazing for the benefit they provide to any character with weapon training, they are ridiculously inexpensive for what they provide.
They invalidate the other fighter archetypes that don't get weapon training. I could make say...an Archer Fighter. Except, he lacks weapon training, so he's going to end up at -2 attack and damage with his bow compared to a vanilla fighter that chose bow as his first weapon training, but retained the flexibility of having 3 others as well.
That's just messed up. Taking the specialized archetype made you worse at your specialty than generic fighter is.
Lets look at this from another perspective.
Lets say you want to power attack and use combat expertise in the same round as a fighter.
The penalty for this will be:
-2 (first level)
-4 (fourth level)
-8 (eighth level)
-12 (twelfth level)
-16 (sixteenth level)
-20 (twentieth level)
That's all your BAB. But heck lets see how we can 'nickel and dime' this away with bonuses.
Trait: Offensive defense (reduces combat expertise penalty by 1)
EWP: Madu (reduces combat expertise penalty by 1)
Greater weapon focus/specialization (+2 bonus)
Close weapon group +4 bonus
Gloves of dueling +2 bonus
Weapon +5 bonus
We've just 'reduced' the penalty to -5. For that -5 we have +6 to AC, +27 to damage and our CMD is up by +15 (disarms and sundering) -- which means at level 20 we have a CMD of 41 against disarms and sundering and a CMD of 26 against everything else, before we account for things like deflection bonus, strength modifier, and dexterity modifier (or favored class options).
They invalidate the other fighter archetypes that don't get weapon training. I could make say...an Archer Fighter. Except, he lacks weapon training, so he's going to end up at -2 attack and damage with his bow compared to a vanilla fighter that chose bow as his first weapon training, but retained the flexibility of having 3 others as well.
That's just messed up. Taking the specialized archetype made you worse at your specialty than generic fighter is.
I understand your point, but i consider it exaggerated.
You do not take unbreakable or tactician for their damage outpost, nor armor master, shield master or tower shield specialist. I believe the bad archetype still are bad and the good ones still are good even without the glovs of dueling, afther all, The vanilla fighter worked just fine without the.
Well, the ones that get rid of weapon training and anything resembling it (+ attack and damage, basically) for defensive or other stuff, like Unbreakable, my comment doesn't apply. I was talking solely about the archetypes with a "weapon training replecement" that mechanically is still the +4 by level 17, but of a different name. And thus not compatible with the gloves.
All I'm saying is, gloves should function with all of those as well. I'm not asking for the specialized archetypes to even be better. Just equal. Is that so much to ask?
Yeah it should be -- makes the point even easier too. Brain fart.
I agree with you. Hopefully any DM would see how foolish that is and houserule. But RAW, that's how it is. And a lot of people here do seem to play in PFS.
In any case, the internet has no space constraints, so an errata or FAQ fixing it officially would be awesome.
I think other have already shown that the Gloves are TOO good. The best house rule (IMHO) would be to just disallow them from the game. Expanding who can use them just increases the number of characters that will feel that they have to take them so that they are not sub par.
Here I have two 15th-level archers.
The first is Dayer Rann, built for the highest attack and damage rolls one can sensibly obtain with a fighter. The second is his brother, Deacon Rann, built for versatility and "special tricks." The latter does not have gloves of dueling. The former does.
I'm not seeing that much difference between the two. Perhaps someone can do the DPR calculations for me (I'm no good at math) and can numerically demonstrate for me the importance of gloves of dueling?
Feel free to compare their other attributes as well.
I think other have already shown that the Gloves are TOO good. The best house rule (IMHO) would be to just disallow them from the game. Expanding who can use them just increases the number of characters that will feel that they have to take them so that they are not sub par.
This is an over reaction. Just change them to be like every other class bonus item in the APG, the fighter is considered 4 levels higher for the purposes of weapon training.
I think other have already shown that the Gloves are TOO good. The best house rule (IMHO) would be to just disallow them from the game. Expanding who can use them just increases the number of characters that will feel that they have to take them so that they are not sub par.This is an over reaction. Just change them to be like every other class bonus item in the APG, the fighter is considered 4 levels higher for the purposes of weapon training.
That would be reasonable. Personally I think they are pretty flavorless items and would not be missed if they did not exist. I also dislike the Monk's Robe for the same reason, but I don't ban it.
Now, I am fully aware that there are a lot of staple items that could be considered "flavorless", (for example, cloak of resistance) but I would not advocate getting rid of them. Honestly they are needed. But there is no harm in trying to reduce the number of necessary, but bland, items. Combining all of the stat enhancers into two items is a step in that direction. Making a cloak of protection that combines resistance and a deflection bonus to AC would also be a good idea and free up a ring slot for something more interesting.
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Personally I think they are there to keep up.
Everybody says fighters rock cause weapon training is always on.
True.
But why should Pally's, Barbarians, Rangers be able to burst past fighters at all?
They gey TONS of other stuff.
Pally with Cha Headband+Divine Power and books can get +8/10 to hit, +26 damage AND AC
Barbarians (Rage+ Reckless abandon+Furious Weapon) get +12 to hit and +10/16 to damage (raging brutality)
Rangers can get +10 to hit and Damage (instant enemy+Improved Quarry) vs anything.
With the gloves fighters get +6 to hit and damage (+8hit, +10damage if they spend 4 feats)
So the Maximum to hit and damage a fighter does Is outdone by all other core melees in certain circumstances?
Why should it? The fighter gets bugger all else.
The others?
Pally- swift self healing, spells, Divine Bond (yet another thing he can stack), Massive saves.
Barb- SUPER FEATS CALLED RAGE POWERS. Superstition, Witchunter (more damage vs nearly everything), Str Surge, Pounce, CAGM.
Ranger- tons of skills, pet Wolf trip buddy, spells, earlier entry to feats BEFORE the fighter
Let fighters keep the.gloves..it's.all they got
Here I have two 15th-level archers.
The first is Dayer Rann, built for the highest attack and damage rolls one can sensibly obtain with a fighter. The second is his brother, Deacon Rann, built for versatility and "special tricks." The latter does not have gloves of dueling. The former does.
I'm not seeing that much difference between the two. Perhaps someone can do the DPR calculations for me (I'm no good at math) and can numerically demonstrate for me the importance of gloves of dueling?
Feel free to compare their other attributes as well.
First off, I love your two build seeing as how my fighter archer is similar to fashion.
2. Deacon does not need agile maneuvers to do his trickshot. Using a bow to attack automatically uses your Dex.
3. blind-fight is not needed at all. If its for getting ricochet shot deed, its a waste of the feats to do a shot the monk zen archer can do automatically. Its not worth it. Your wafting the feats to do a situational shot that won't happen enough to warrant the waste of feats.
4. No clue for dpr.
5. Buckler can't be used when fighting with bow. You can use buckler when not in combat for those surprise rounds, but after that your shooting your bow, can't get benefit if buckler.
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The gloves are that good, not only for the +2/+2, but also for the +4 vs disarmed, sunder, effects to lose weapon.
Your referring to my 2 guides on TWF and mixing them up.
The Glove of Storing is for the Ranger guide (or any other char who can't twf as a standard action) so he can 2hand a scimitar, then pull a kukri when he twf's
My fighter guide explains the glove of storing is not needed.
If.your optimizing for TWF as a Fighter then you should be using either
Two Weapon Warrior
Dawnflower Dervish
Mobile Fighter
All 3 of which can TWF and move. They should use Duelist gloves.
Here I have two 15th-level archers.
The first is Dayer Rann, built for the highest attack and damage rolls one can sensibly obtain with a fighter. The second is his brother, Deacon Rann, built for versatility and "special tricks." The latter does not have gloves of dueling. The former does.
I'm not seeing that much difference between the two. Perhaps someone can do the DPR calculations for me (I'm no good at math) and can numerically demonstrate for me the importance of gloves of dueling?
Feel free to compare their other attributes as well.
VS AC 40 USING RAPID SHOT FOR BOTH (Also disregarding crits)
Dayer Rann
hit chance per attack: 80%/80%/55%/30%
Average Damage: 25.5
80%+80%+55%+30% = 245%
(2.45)(25.5) = 62.475 DPR
Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 60%/60%/35%/10%
Average Damage: 17.5
60%+60%+35%+10% = 165%
(1.65)(17.5) = 28.875 DPR
Granted, that's a fairly high AC, but it doesn't get -much- better for Deacon Rann at different ACs.
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Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 60%/60%/35%/10%
Average Damage: 17.560%+60%+35%+10% = 165%
(1.65)(17.5) = 28.875 DPR
Granted, that's a fairly high AC, but it doesn't get -much- better for Deacon Rann at different ACs.
Let's toss the Gloves on there (yes, I know, not legal, I'm making a point here), so we're comparing the same character:
Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 70%/70%/45%/20%
Average Damage: 19.5
70%+70%+45%+20% = 205%
(2.05)(19.5) = 39.975 DPR
That's almost half again as much DPR right there, and he can get it by ditching a single point of AC.
VS AC 40 USING RAPID SHOT FOR BOTH (Also disregarding crits)
Dayer Rann
hit chance per attack: 80%/80%/55%/30%
Average Damage: 25.580%+80%+55%+30% = 245%
(2.45)(25.5) = 62.475 DPR
Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 60%/60%/35%/10%
Average Damage: 17.560%+60%+35%+10% = 165%
(1.65)(17.5) = 28.875 DPR
Granted, that's a fairly high AC, but it doesn't get -much- better for Deacon Rann at different ACs.
Why AC 40? That's the AC of a CR 24 monster (give or take)! Why not do the math for AC 30, the expected AC of your traditional CR 15 monster, which is what these guys will most likely be facing.
Dayer Rann
hit chance per attack: 95%/95%/95%/80%
Average Damage: 25.5
95%+95%+95%+80% = 365%
(3.65)(25.5) = 93.075 DPR
Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 95%/95%/85%/60%
Average Damage: 17.5
95%+95%+85%+60% = 335%
(3.35)(17.5) = 58.625 DPR
The gloves are still a difference of 11 DPR, which is still significant. It isn't the be all, end all, but it a difference.
None of this helps finesse fighters. As far as I can tell, the only finesse fighter that can use the gloves is the Aldori Swordlord archetype.
Thanks,
Kodger
Huh? These gloves help a finesse fighter just as much as they do any other standard fighter.
VS AC 40 USING RAPID SHOT FOR BOTH (Also disregarding crits)
Dayer Rann
hit chance per attack: 80%/80%/55%/30%
Average Damage: 25.580%+80%+55%+30% = 245%
(2.45)(25.5) = 62.475 DPR
Deacon Rann
hit chance per attack: 60%/60%/35%/10%
Average Damage: 17.560%+60%+35%+10% = 165%
(1.65)(17.5) = 28.875 DPR
Granted, that's a fairly high AC, but it doesn't get -much- better for Deacon Rann at different ACs.
Why AC 40? That's the AC of a CR 24 monster (give or take)! Why not do the math for AC 30, the expected AC of your traditional CR 15 monster, which is what these guys will most likely be facing.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm just used to looking at level 20 characters, so I use AC 40 out of habit. I didn't feel like redoing the calculations after I realised it didn't make too much sense to use AC 40 in this case (out of laziness). It was clear enough from the numbers that there was a significant advantage in the damage department for Dayer Rann.
It's nice to see the actual numbers that you produced though.
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Huh? These gloves help a finesse fighter just as much as they do any other standard fighter.None of this helps finesse fighters. As far as I can tell, the only finesse fighter that can use the gloves is the Aldori Swordlord archetype.
Thanks,
Kodger
I believe he's referring to the way the free hand fighter is screwed on this deal.
Yeah, so those examples kinda prove the point. Vanilla Fighter is better at the specialized combat style than the archetype made to support it. Not equal. Better.
Again, simple solution. All those weapon training replacements that still boost attack and damage but got a different name, because designers like to feel like they're creative or something, count as weapon training. Bing. Done. Simple.
My DM is allowing the gloves to boost the archer fighter. I mean it "is" the same ability just only applies to one thing.
Why AC 40? That's the AC of a CR 24 monster (give or take)! Why not do the math for AC 30, the expected AC of your traditional CR 15 monster, which is what these guys will most likely be facing.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm just used to looking at level 20 characters, so I use AC 40 out of habit. I didn't feel like redoing the calculations after I realised it didn't make too much sense to use AC 40 in this case (out of laziness). It was clear enough from the numbers that there was a significant advantage in the damage department for Dayer Rann.
Not entirely unfair either. The bestiary lists unbuffed ACs. In an actual game, monster ACs can get very, very high. For example, erinyes are naked but can wear masterwork studded leather with absolutely no hindrances, making their AC +3 higher. A pit fiend has an AC of 38, but has a spell-like ability that buffs himself to AC 42. Most intelligent monsters can quaff a potion of mage armor and that brings them to base AC+4. That's before fighting defensively, or using any feats. A standard pit fiend can -- with negligible effort -- get his AC to around 50. Monsters in the bestiary are listed with their basic statistics, and then have a rather large amount of treasure to load up with. Pit fiends, in fact, have 134,000 gp worth of treasure on average.
Hell, your typical marilith has 64,000 gp worth of treasure, and all she is listed with in her entry are a few masterwork longswords. Only a fool would expect to actually encounter a marilith with only masterwork longswords. You'd be lucky if each of them was only +1 longswords with 64,000 gp worth of treasure belonging to a monster that leads demonic armies as a general. Oh heck no. Maybe 6 +1 vicious longswords, or maybe 6 +1 longswords, a cloak of resistance, some masterwork or better studded leather armor, etc.
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Gloves of Dueling are one ugly item. They go up to your elbow, and are green.
Very unmanly.
Why AC 40? That's the AC of a CR 24 monster (give or take)! Why not do the math for AC 30, the expected AC of your traditional CR 15 monster, which is what these guys will most likely be facing.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm just used to looking at level 20 characters, so I use AC 40 out of habit. I didn't feel like redoing the calculations after I realised it didn't make too much sense to use AC 40 in this case (out of laziness). It was clear enough from the numbers that there was a significant advantage in the damage department for Dayer Rann.Not entirely unfair either. The bestiary lists unbuffed ACs. In an actual game, monster ACs can get very, very high. For example, erinyes are naked but can wear masterwork studded leather with absolutely no hindrances, making their AC +3 higher. A pit fiend has an AC of 38, but has a spell-like ability that buffs himself to AC 42. Most intelligent monsters can quaff a potion of mage armor and that brings them to base AC+4. That's before fighting defensively, or using any feats. A standard pit fiend can -- with negligible effort -- get his AC to around 50. Monsters in the bestiary are listed with their basic statistics, and then have a rather large amount of treasure to load up with. Pit fiends, in fact, have 134,000 gp worth of treasure on average.
Hell, your typical marilith has 64,000 gp worth of treasure, and all she is listed with in her entry are a few masterwork longswords. Only a fool would expect to actually encounter a marilith with only masterwork longswords. You'd be lucky if each of them was only +1 longswords with 64,000 gp worth of treasure belonging to a monster that leads demonic armies as a general. Oh heck no. Maybe 6 +1 vicious longswords, or maybe 6 +1 longswords, a cloak of resistance, some masterwork or better studded leather armor, etc.
Nearly all the GMs I've gamed with do not account for equipment on most monster characters (and sometimes, not even their buffing spell-like abilities). I chock it up to not having enough high level games with which to make them more familiar.
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Nearly all the GMs I've gamed with do not account for equipment on most monster characters (and sometimes, not even their buffing spell-like abilities). I chock it up to not having enough high level games with which to make them more familiar.
It is a common theme among newbie GMs. So common, in fact, that the 3.x DMG specifically addresses it during the chapter on how to run a good game; including noting that treasures should be used by badguys when the opportunity arises, and that badguys should traditionally have treasures that are suitable to those badguys. You aren't likely to find tons of flammable goods in the treasury of an evil fire elemental. And if there is a +1 sword amongst the treasure, then by golly the hobgoblin leader should be using it! :P
A long time ago, I too made many of these common mistakes. In my first few years of GMing, a lot of it was trial and error, and listening to the wisdom of other GMs. I made the mistake of forgetting or just neglecting to use the actual capabilities of monsters, ignoring their strengths and tactical advantages, and I've seen both myself and other GMs who made laughing stocks out of high level enemies by running creatures like balors with the finesse and guile of a pair of bumbling ogres. Swoop in and attack, attack, attack, no buffing, no tactical retreating, no items, blah-blah.
I've long since learned better, and have actually refused experience points for encounters with these sorts of mistakes as a player. I'm not really interested in getting spoon fed XP and treasure and false sense of victory. I'd rather run from an encounter than steamroll something that should have eaten us for breakfast, regurgitated us, and then eaten us for lunch. I do my utmost best to try and lend what experience I have gained GMing over this past 1.2 decades; because other GMs helped me and I want to carry that on. I feel like if I help others avoid the same mistakes and stumbling blocks I've encountered, even those who are fresh and new can reach the same level of experience faster.
I stress to people I advise for GMing: "The GM is NOT always right". That phrase should be burned, boiled in acid, crystalized, smashed up, ground into tiny flour-like fragments, and cast into the bowls of the abyss. It is the absolute best way to make sure a GM never learns another useful thing about being a GM, and is almost like a just add water mixture for creating a horrible GM. Really good GMs look, listen, and adapt. Our mistakes teach us, and with those lessons we can share that wisdom. To tell us we are always right is to tell us we make no mistakes; and to do so is to ensure our own failure as GMs.
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I’m sorry that I was unclear. I meant that fighter archetypes, of the sort that tend to produce finesse fighters, generally give up weapon training as such. I had Free Hand Fighter and Mobile Fighter in mind.
Nobody has made this mistake yet, but a rogue’s weapon training is not a class feature.
Thanks,
Kodger
I’m sorry that I was unclear. I meant that fighter archetypes, of the sort that tend to produce finesse fighters, generally give up weapon training as such. I had Free Hand Fighter and Mobile Fighter in mind.
Free hand fighter gets a slightly cut-down version of it (it was errata'd to +1 at 5th level, increasing every 6 levels to cap at +3 instead of +4).
For items the fighter turns to get gimped, when it's class specific. Most benefits the fighter gets us for their feats and weapon use.