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I haven't seen anyone link to the
Also, my 2 cents regarding the does-Eldritch-Heritage-work-for-Wildblooded debate:
1. Seems fine, RAW-wise. Reasonable people may disagree.
2. Wild-blooded options are balanced, not more powerful.
For example, Wild-blooded Fey [Sylvan] is probably the most 'powerful' option, and it's not that great: THREE feats and CHA13+ to get an animal companion one level down from your character level. Decent, but certainly not game-breaking.
regardless of how the rest of the debate goes, it seems clear to me that you cannot get an animal companion with eldritch heritage (and i know there are some who disagree- usually because they need it to work for some ultimate power build they're devising). the sylvan animal companion specifically (and in no other words) says it "counts as your bloodline arcana" and then modifies it to say "and also replaces laughing touch" (the 1st level bloodline power); since there is no feat/ability/etc that lets you take a bloodline's arcana you cannot get this ability without taking the class. that said, if you're gm will let you do that take it on every character you make from now on (it would be worth it).
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that said, if you're gm will let you do that take it on every character you make from now on (it would be worth it).
I disagree. Usually not worth it. For some character concepts a weak animal companion might be worth three feats and 13+ CHA, but usually not.
The very fact that reasonable people disagree about whether this is, or is not, legal suggests that the RAW is not clear.
For those who want to VOTE on it I posted a poll here.
With the new feat chain that grants basically the same thing, I think the point about eldritch heritage sylvan is moot. You get the same thing for three feats. Not a broken combo.
regardless of how the rest of the debate goes, it seems clear to me that you cannot get an animal companion with eldritch heritage (and i know there are some who disagree- usually because they need it to work for some ultimate power build they're devising). the sylvan animal companion specifically (and in no other words) says it "counts as your bloodline arcana" and then modifies it to say "and also replaces laughing touch" (the 1st level bloodline power); since there is no feat/ability/etc that lets you take a bloodline's arcana you cannot get this ability without taking the class. that said, if you're gm will let you do that take it on every character you make from now on (it would be worth it).
I'm not so sure about that. I see it "Counting" as the arcana in that the Sorcerer also gives up her Arcana as well as Laughing Touch to gain the power, but that doesn't make it an Arcana in and of itself.
On the other hand, that does seem like a cheap way to get an Animal Companion for anyone but a Fey Sorcerer, If you consider two Feats, a two-level minimum wait, and a decently high Charisma to be cheap.
I say let the GM decide.
So everyone who is OK with non-sorcerers using Eldritch Heritage to take bloodline powers from the wildblooded sorcerer archetype is OK with an arcane bomber wizard taking Sneak Attack as if a vivisectionist alchemist instead of the Bomb ability, right? After all, Sneak Attack replaces the normal Bomb for a vivisectionist alchemist just like the wildblooded bloodline powers replace the normal bloodline powers for a wildblooded sorcerer... [/sarcasm]
Just following the same "logic." As I said, you can houserule it, but you're still allowing a character to gain the benefit of an archetype in a class that they have no levels in.
So everyone who is OK with non-sorcerers using Eldritch Heritage to take bloodline powers from the wildblooded sorcerer archetype is OK with an arcane bomber wizard taking Sneak Attack as if a vivisectionist alchemist instead of the Bomb ability, right? After all, Sneak Attack replaces the normal Bomb for a vivisectionist alchemist just like the wildblooded bloodline powers replace the normal bloodline powers for a wildblooded sorcerer... [/sarcasm]
Just following the same "logic." As I said, you can houserule it, but you're still allowing a character to gain the benefit of an archetype in a class that they have no levels in.
Look at the rules again:
Arcane Bomber
At 1st level, the arcane bomber gains an ability nearly identical to the alchemist’s bomb ability.
Eldritch Heritage
Select one sorcerer bloodline.
Arcane Bomber's rules specifically state that the ability is only similar to that of the Alchemist (and indeed is different in practice), while Eldritch Heritage is flat-out stated to be the actual Bloodlines of a Sorcerer.
Which brings me back to the "If they wanted that restriction, they'd have said so" point. Look at the restrictions of the feat chain as they are. Particularly the Level requirements (3rd for base, 11th for Improved, 13 for Greater) and this statement:
This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have.
There is exactly one restriction involving the Wildblooded Archetype, and the statement I just quoted is it. The Level requirements already keep a player from using the feats to get their own Bloodline Powers early, so the only possible uses for that sentence are to keep a Sorcerer from using the feat to have both the Vanilla and Wildblooded powers of their Bloodline at the same time or, now that I'm thinking about it, from squeezing in all the powers from both Bloodlines of a Crossblooded Archetype.
Had the writers wanted to exclude the Wildblooded variants in their entirely, that was the time to do it. But they didn't, despite writing a rule that was written with the Archetypes in mind.
I have to agree that it would have to be labeled a foreseeable oversight to not say that the Wildblooded mutated bloodlines were not allowed with Eldritch Heritage (if indeed that was the intention).
You are right to point out that one of the key things you should look at when trying to surmiss a writer's intention is the foreseeability of the interpretation of their words.
That said, I also think that while the potential confusion was foreseeable, they could have overlooked it given that the Feat and the Wildblooded Archetypes are new concepts.
Could it be that you need to be a Wildblooded Sorcerer to access mutated bloodlines?
I think the answer could be yes from a RAI point of view. From a RAW point of view, mutated bloodlines and unmutated bloodlines are all bloodlines. There was a time when I would have said RAW always wins - save the ridiculous. However, I have been disabused of the notion (not that I think that is a good thing, but it is what it is).
Actually, I prefer to look at things from RAI. And in this case, I'm looking at the very concepts of the Pathfinder Sorcerer, the Wildblooded Archetype, and the Eldritch Heritage feat.
In Pathfinder, a Sorcerer is a person who has the power of a supernatural ancestor or great mystic influence hidden in their very DNA. One day, their power manifests, and they choose to master and/or expand that power for whatever reason.
But what happens when they don't? If a young wizard manifests a mystic lineage, but doesn't want to give up his studies? What if a Fighter in trainng wants to continue his weapon mastery? Or a Monk initiate prefers to perfect her physical body and mind? The power inherent in their blood, and the changes that come with it don't just go away.
That, to me is what the Eldritch Heritage feat symbolizes: Someone who has this supernatural lineage, but otherwise prefers to rely on the skills/studies that they are already familiar/proficient with. Just because your great-grandaddy was a Dragon doesn't always mean you are automatically cut out to be a spellcaster (the occasional Fus Ro DAH notwithstanding, o Dragonborn).
Which brings us back to Wildblooded. There is no particular reason a given Sorcerer is Wildblooded any more than a given Sorcerer is of a particular Bloodline. Both the Sorcerer and the Eldritch Heritaged character are both born that way.
So why c/w/shouldn't a Wildblood Bloodline be a part of an Eldritch Heritage? Why would you think a Linnorm's Humanoid descendants can only be Sorcerers once their power manifests (as opposed to a Chromatic/Metallic Dragon)?
Hell, the only rules offered to dispute that question dont even apply to the situation.
Personally I don't see any difference between wild bloodlines and subdomains. They replace a few things, but otherwise count in all ways the same as the parent ability, including accessibility. Just like a druid can take the cloud subdomain, eldritch heritage can give access to a wild bloodline.
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All I can say is Oh my god, who gives a crap. It's ambiguous at best and has no impact on game balance whatsoever. Is there a reason to call it this way other than the sadistic joy of saying no?
If being naturally wildblooded is where access to the mutated bloodlines comes from then so be it, you are right.
If being wildblooded and then focusing as a wildblooded sorcerer is where access to the mutated bloodlines comes from then you are incorrect.
My thing is that Wildblooded is specifically stated to be a Mutant bloodline. You don't train for that, you're born into it.
The difference is that sub domains aren't archetypes. While I agree that its not over powered RAW its not just another bloodlines its an archetype. EH only allows sor bloodlines not sor archetype powers.
That is not what that rule is about. That rule is saying: "If you wanna take levels in this character class, and use an archetype, you have to go all the way. No picking only the parts you like." It is explicitly (i.e. said right there in the rulebooks) about taking levels in a class, which EH does not do. You do not become a Sorcerer or take a level in the class when you take EH. You get no Spells, no Bloodline Feats, no Bloodline Arcana, no Class Skill bonus (unless it was already a Class Skill in your class).
EH says "Pick a Sorcerer Bloodline." Archetype or not, a Wildblooded Sorcerer is still a Sorcerer, and Wildblooded Bloodlines are still Bloodlines.
RAW ambiguous? Rule 0 applies!! Just don't try to convince me you can Eldritch Heritage into Sylvan, please don't make that argument. As a GM I allow EH feats into wildblooded bloodlines, but not Sylvan.
Oh, and, Ravingdork, this was made with a 20 pt build, but, I'd like your opinion on it nonetheless :
Arvandian, Knight of the Thorn Grove
It's a pretty MAD crazy character and I love the concept. Nature loving Fey blooded dual nodachi wielding half-elf. What's not to love? (besides horrendous penalties to hit...should probably work on that)