| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
?
Can you stick all the usual "intelligent item" crap, such as special purpose, telepathy, and generally just actual intelligence, in a golem?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose one could give an intelligent item authoritative control over a non-intelligent golem then jam that item inside the golem's body and seal it up. Neat idea.
Craft Construct is an item creation feat. Golem creation even shows market price and caster level of the golem. The golem is in fact a construct magic item.
Craft Construct (Item Creation)
You can create construct creatures like golems.
Prerequisites: Caster level 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.
Benefit: You can create any construct whose prerequisites you meet. The act of animating a construct takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its market price. To create a construct, you must use up raw materials costing half of its base price, plus the full cost of the basic body created for the construct. Each construct has a special section that summarizes its costs and other prerequisites. A newly created construct has average hit points for its Hit Dice.
Golems are magic items, complete with caster level and construction bits. The catch is they are magic items that are also creatures, which makes them continue while in AMFs and immune to Disjunction.
Flesh Golem Construction
The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal humanoid corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.
CL 8th; Price 20,500 gp
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCraft Construct, animate dead, bull's strength, geas/quest, limited wish, creator must be caster level 8th; Skill Craft (leather) or Heal DC 13; Cost 10,500 gp
Same as magic items. Intelligence can be added to any magic item. Thus you can make an intelligent golem using the magic item rules.
EDIT: I wonder if this is indirectly in response to my commentary on making intelligent golems here on the boards. *curiously ponders*
|
Just because its construction requires Item Creation feats does not make it an item. All the text outside of the prerequisites stipulate that they are creates you create, not items.
Mind you I'm not opposed to the idea, heck is happened in the Gargoyles cartoon so why not, I'm just saying by RAW you can't do it, but it would be an easy argument to make to any rational DM.
Just because its construction requires Item Creation feats does not make it an item. All the text outside of the prerequisites stipulate that they are creates you create, not items.
Mind you I'm not opposed to the idea, heck is happened in the Gargoyles cartoon so why not, I'm just saying by RAW you can't do it, but it would be an easy argument to make to any rational DM.
No no, it does not merely require an item creation feat it IS an item creation feat.
EDIT: How are they not magic items? They have a caster level, construction requirements, are created as magic items, require a magic item creation feat that does nothing except create constructs, and so forth. It is in fact a magic item that is also construct.
|
|
You could argue that it's both, but I think the fact that they appear in the bestiary and not under magic items distinguishes them as creatures, not items. Intelligent items are just items, golems are something in between but seem to land on the "creature" side while intelligent magic items are on the item side, respectively.
*edit- I'm just talking RAW here, not disagreeing on a personal or conceptual level.
You could argue that it's both, but I think the fact that they appear in the bestiary and not under magic items distinguishes them as creatures, not items. Intelligent items are just items, golems are something in between but seem to land on the "creature" side while intelligent magic items are on the item side, respectively.
*edit- I'm just talking RAW here, not disagreeing on a personal or conceptual level.
I'm talking RAW as well. You create golems using an item creation feat. That means golems are items. In fact, they even have a market price. Their magic item entries are included with the creature entries. They are in fact magic items that are also creatures. Since they are magic items as much as they are creatures, you can add Intelligence to them as any other magic item.
I'm not disagreeing on a personal or conceptual level either. They are magic items. They are created as magic items with an item creation feat. Golems are items as much as they are creatures. As creatures, they are conveniently animate in AMFs and cannot be dispelled (though their Supernatural and Spell-like abilities DO shut down in such fields). On what grounds can you say that they are not magic items, when they are created with a magic item creation feat and possess the qualities of magic items -- including construction requirements, market price, and caster levels? EDIT: Incidentally, intelligent magic items are constructs according to the Intelligent Item rules.
EDIT: As an example, you decide you are going to create a Iron Golem. It has a market price of 150,000 gp, and a creation cost of 80,000 gp. You can meet all the usual prerequisites or ignore them due to your sexy spellcraft modifiers. So you decide that you want to make him, her, or it, Intelligent. You increase the base price of the Iron Golem to 150,500 gp, and create it with a 10 in Int, Wis, and Charisma, but no additional abilities. The golem has an 18 Ego due to being worth between 100,000 and 200,000 gp.
There's also this, btw:
"Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. "
Next question:
Are there any guidelines or limits on what the "special purpose" of an item can be? Could I craft an item and make its "special purpose" be:
"Defend all servants and interests of (My PC)." ..?
|
I'm not sure you would want an intelligent golem anyway. As an intelligent item, it has a chance of going rogue. Plus, unlike normal intelligent items, an intelligent golem would be able to run off and never be heard from again. If it's a shield guardian, it could probably mind control you like a normal intelligent item.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about I just craft the golem to hold my own soul. Immortality without dealing with the whole lich thing.
A Dozen Unusual Phylacteries sounds like a product that is right up your alley.
This thread needs to die. For personal reasons. <<;
I like the idea, but it's touching too closely to a personal project. I hate to work on something and then be told by friends "Oh, that sounds just like ________." Takes the wind out of one's sails, if you know what I mean.
Intelligent item INSIDE a golem, though? GOLDEN. A golem that uses an intelligent sword that is actually its master? Awesome!
This thread needs to die. For personal reasons. <<;
I like the idea, but it's touching too closely to a personal project. I hate to work on something and then be told by friends "Oh, that sounds just like ________." Takes the wind out of one's sails, if you know what I mean.
Intelligent item INSIDE a golem, though? GOLDEN. A golem that uses an intelligent sword that is actually its master? Awesome!
Pardon? You want us to stop the thread because this is similar to something you were already thinking about? I'm surprised you're not used to that sort of thing already. We are living in the 21st century. There are billions of people. Many have access to the internet. It is such that you can have some sort of bizarre tiny error caused by obscure program X installed on the same obscure repackaged OS as obscure program Y and you can google it and get at least 3 other people having the same problems and info on how to fix it.
One might think that out of billions of people, who can communicate with one another directly or indirectly, that we might have similar ideas from time to time. :P
|
|
This thread needs to die. For personal reasons. <<;
I like the idea, but it's touching too closely to a personal project. I hate to work on something and then be told by friends "Oh, that sounds just like ________." Takes the wind out of one's sails, if you know what I mean.
Intelligent item INSIDE a golem, though? GOLDEN. A golem that uses an intelligent sword that is actually its master? Awesome!
Pardon? You want us to stop the thread because this is similar to something you were already thinking about? I'm surprised you're not used to that sort of thing already. We are living in the 21st century. There are billions of people. Many have access to the internet. It is such that you can have some sort of bizarre tiny error caused by obscure program X installed on the same obscure repackaged OS as obscure program Y and you can google it and get at least 3 other people having the same problems and info on how to fix it.
One might think that out of billions of people, who can communicate with one another directly or indirectly, that we might have similar ideas from time to time. :P
Hahaha I wouldn't be surprised if there was already a thread on this somewhere...
I scoured the forums, couldn't find anything.
According to the rules, intelligent items act on your turn. If I make a staff intelligent, can it activate itself (fire spells using charges) independent of me on my turn?
If I give it Special Purpose, "Defend (me)," then give it "Item can detect any special purpose foes within 60 feet," then give it "Item can cast a 1st-level spell 3/day," can I stick Faerie Fire in it and have it light up any hostile invisible foes within range without me ever having to make a spot check or take an action?
Because that's hawt.
I scoured the forums, couldn't find anything.
According to the rules, intelligent items act on your turn. If I make a staff intelligent, can it activate itself (fire spells using charges) independent of me on my turn?
If I give it Special Purpose, "Defend (me)," then give it "Item can detect any special purpose foes within 60 feet," then give it "Item can cast a 1st-level spell 3/day," can I stick Faerie Fire in it and have it light up any hostile invisible foes within range without me ever having to make a spot check or take an action?
Because that's hawt.
I'm pretty sure it has to be a specific type of foe. Not just anyone who's an enemy of you, I think, but otherwise more or less correct.
I scoured the forums, couldn't find anything.
According to the rules, intelligent items act on your turn. If I make a staff intelligent, can it activate itself (fire spells using charges) independent of me on my turn?
If I give it Special Purpose, "Defend (me)," then give it "Item can detect any special purpose foes within 60 feet," then give it "Item can cast a 1st-level spell 3/day," can I stick Faerie Fire in it and have it light up any hostile invisible foes within range without me ever having to make a spot check or take an action?
Because that's hawt.
Generally yes they can act on their own but they have their own senses (default range 30 feet, not much), own Perception (defaults to Wisdom modifier, again, not much). Unless their creator implemented them with blindsense or see invisible they will have hard time helping you with invisible enemies.
This thread needs to die. For personal reasons. <<;
I like the idea, but it's touching too closely to a personal project. I hate to work on something and then be told by friends "Oh, that sounds just like ________." Takes the wind out of one's sails, if you know what I mean.
Been there, suffered that (I mean about the pain of working on something and then someone starting a thread about it or presenting archetype/class/magic item/spell/monster that does the same). Damn mind-probing plagiarists!
Intelligent Construct Armor with a Lich's Phylactery hidden inside....hmmmmm
So if an intelligent item can cast spells on its own without using the wielder's actions, what happens when it casts a spell with the range personal? Does it effect the wielder or the item?
I'd say personal effect targets item (as an intelligent item it is both item and creature). Otherwise everyone and their dog would run around with intelligent items capable of casting shield and true strike 3 times per day for mere +2,900 gp to the item cost.
Intelligent Construct Armor with a Lich's Phylactery hidden inside....hmmmmm
So if an intelligent item can cast spells on its own without using the wielder's actions, what happens when it casts a spell with the range personal? Does it effect the wielder or the item?
Or you make the phylactery the intelligent item! Special purpose "survive."
I'd say personal effect targets item (as an intelligent item it is both item and creature). Otherwise everyone and their dog would run around with intelligent items capable of casting shield and true strike 3 times per day for mere +2,900 gp to the item cost.
If an intelligent item can cast spells on its own without using the wielder's actions, it effectively makes any spells it casts Quickened. I'd say that all of the 3/day spell abilities would be worth the item cost then.
If the item cast the spell itself, does it need a sufficiently high ability score to cast the spell?
Or you make the phylactery the intelligent item! Special purpose "survive."Intelligent Construct Armor with a Lich's Phylactery hidden inside....hmmmmm
So if an intelligent item can cast spells on its own without using the wielder's actions, what happens when it casts a spell with the range personal? Does it effect the wielder or the item?
That's what Sauron did. The one ring was basically an intelligent phylactery. It housed the spirit of Sauron, making it impossible to kill him while it existed. Since in D&D terms it would have been magically re-inforced and probably forged out of the hardest metal known, it would have had a hardness somewhere around 30-40 (making it impossible to destroy by most means in the E6 that was LotR :P), and a kickass Ego score.
I'm pretty sure it has to be a specific type of foe. Not just anyone who's an enemy of you, I think, but otherwise more or less correct.
If it's purpose is to kill, sure. There's a "defend" purpose in the list though. I guess if the special purpose is to "defend" then the "detect foes" simply doesn't work at all? (asking..)
Generally yes they can act on their own but they have their own senses (default range 30 feet, not much), own Perception (defaults to Wisdom modifier, again, not much). Unless their creator implemented them with blindsense or see invisible they will have hard time helping you with invisible enemies.
So you're saying that this:
"Item can detect any special purpose foes within 60 feet"
..doesn't work if the item's senses don't include the range and the ability to see the target? If so, what good is the special power? If it's purpose is to Slay Evil, but it doesn't have permanent Detect Evil on it, then it can't do what it's supposed to do. I figured the power would trump that.
I'm pretty sure it has to be a specific type of foe. Not just anyone who's an enemy of you, I think, but otherwise more or less correct.If it's purpose is to kill, sure. There's a "defend" purpose in the list though. I guess if the special purpose is to "defend" then the "detect foes" simply doesn't work at all? (asking..)
Hm, upon rechecking it, I believe you are correct Beej67. I merely misunderstood. Yes, it seems that if your intelligent creation's purpose was to protect you or some other thing chosen by you at its creation (such as say, your daughter) then it does seem that detecting those hostile to the object of that protection would be appropriate.
This is actually an excellent example as to why you might want to create an Intelligent golem. Make an Intelligent golem with the special purpose of protecting someone from harm (say your daughter). The golem escorts your daughter around, and detects those who would bring direct harm to the golem's ward. Perfect bodyguard.
This would be exceptionally keen if you rigged up a golem or animated object that was medium size, and gave it the ability to use disguise self. That would allow you to create an android that projected a hologram around itself, similar to the robot training dummy from Force Unleashed. It could pass for human, and thus travel about as your child's personal bodyguard and nanny. :)
Ooo, or a beenie hat with a twirling flashy light that only lit up (used fairie fire) any time an invisible foe approached you.
Or with the Lich idea have his phylactery actually BE the golem. Then make it intelligent with the special purpose of protecting it's master from harm which would also include protecting itself. Then put armor on it. Hrm. Or maybe make it a shield guardian. ...with armor.
|
One bit of info that might help clear up the argument is that Clockwork Servant from Bestiary 3 has special text for creating an"awakened" servant. The mental stats gain look about on-par with an intelligent item.
A link that hopefully works, as mobile devices make posting difficult sometimes.
Ooo, or a beenie hat with a twirling flashy light that only lit up (used fairie fire) any time an invisible foe approached you.
Or with the Lich idea have his phylactery actually BE the golem. Then make it intelligent with the special purpose of protecting it's master from harm which would also include protecting itself. Then put armor on it. Hrm. Or maybe make it a shield guardian. ...with armor.
The BBEG for my tabletop campaign, I believe, will basically be a wizard who rides around inside a sentient Adamantine Golem; like a mecha-armor. Ironically, the idea is not inspired by Gundams, but by the hidden armor in the Baldur's Gate series. :P
This would be exceptionally keen if you rigged up a golem or animated object that was medium size, and gave it the ability to use disguise self. That would allow you to create an android that projected a hologram around itself, similar to the robot training dummy from Force Unleashed. It could pass for human, and thus travel about as your child's personal bodyguard and nanny. :)
Fantastic idea.
Ooo, or a beenie hat with a twirling flashy light that only lit up (used fairie fire) any time an invisible foe approached you.
That's a useful trick on any intelligent item. And a flat out bargain for the ego cost and 10k.
Or with the Lich idea have his phylactery actually BE the golem. Then make it intelligent with the special purpose of protecting it's master from harm which would also include protecting itself. Then put armor on it. Hrm. Or maybe make it a shield guardian. ...with armor.
Suddenly the beast bonded twin soul improved familiar homunculus witch doesn't look quite as gross. :)
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
While we're compiling weird intelligent item questions..
"Item can teleport itself 1/day"
Lets say I've got an intelligent item, and I'm in a polymorph form such that my gear has been subsumed into my form during the transformation, such as beast shape or dragon shape. Can the item "teleport itself" out of my form and into my hand?
While we're compiling weird intelligent item questions..
"Item can teleport itself 1/day"
Lets say I've got an intelligent item, and I'm in a polymorph form such that my gear has been subsumed into my form during the transformation, such as beast shape or dragon shape. Can the item "teleport itself" out of my form and into my hand?
Good question. FAQ'd it.
The flesh golem in carrion crown was an intelligent magic item. I'd say roll a d100 when crafting and if you get 1(or 100, which every you prefer) have it come out intelligent.
Angol Ceredir turned his shield guardian amulet into an intelligent magic item, thereby granting his golem a limited form of intelligence in a roundabout way (since the amulet always "possesses" the amulet, it can control the golem at all times).
The golem may or may not be considered a magical item in its own right, but game developers have already confirmed that the controlling amulet most certainly IS a magical item, so the above works quite well within the RAW.
I was quite surprised to find that anyone with the crafting feats could make an intelligent magical item. In v3.5, you needed to be 15th-level before that became possible, but it seems that limitation was done away with in Pathfinder.
Angol Ceredir turned his shield guardian amulet into an intelligent magic item, thereby granting his golem a limited form of intelligence in a roundabout way (since the amulet always "possesses" the amulet, it can control the golem at all times).
The golem may or may not be considered a magical item in its own right, but game developers have already confirmed that the controlling amulet most certainly IS a magical item, so the above works quite well within the RAW.
I was quite surprised to find that anyone with the crafting feats could make an intelligent magical item. In v3.5, you needed to be 15th-level before that became possible, but it seems that limitation was done away with in Pathfinder.
Ya this made some of the players at my table frown they claimed that int items should be rare something you come across once In a Adventure Path. So when I showed up with a wizard that could dish them out to the party they was a little disappointed. At one point I felt like my character would go mad with all the voices in his head so I started playing him as a mad man.
Well, yeah, the core crafting rules also allow a 3rd level mage to become a lich. The 'bypassing prereqs' thing combined with the 'taking 10' thing really goof the math up. I think any game that allows custom crafting at all (and all intelligent items are by definition custom crafted) pretty much has to start with assumptions about either "we capitulate to monty haul" or "we establish X and Y house rules to keep it in check."
My only intent is to understand and explore the rules as written, to see where they lead me. Currently dropping 11200 on auto-farie-fire-no-save-on-all-foes seems like a pretty neat place to land.
Erm, no. The "bypassing prereqs" thing combined with the "taking 10" thing are exactly what the math is meant to do.
The intent is that if you've paid for the feat, you basically can make any item your spellcraft result +10 would allow. But more importantly, what the GM would allow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, what about a group of Power Ranger golems? They ride around inside and fight using the golem, and then use Fabricate to merge together into a more powerful Golem and all control a separate aspect.
Turn 'em into villains, it'd be fun.
Heh, call it TrollVon.
Nah Cheapy, the math goes out the window, because if you properly min/max your spellcraft roll plus ten, you can craft CL 20 crap when you're first learning Fireball, bypassing the spell prereqs you clearly don't know anyway. It's like Quiddich - it's a highly complicated game, in which all the fantastically variant rules are meaningless because the guy who catches the yellow tennis ball auto-wins.
And I'm saying that's intentional, as varied sources show, within the bounds of the first rule of the game.
I didn't say it wasn't intentional. :)
Anyway, that's a derail we can feel free to drop since its rather pointless and has been covered elsewhere ad nausium. My point was merely that the core rules allow quite a bit of crap that you'd never come across on an adventure path, or if so only rarely, like 5th level mook bad guys with gate candles. All I'm saying is that using the loot or bad guys in the adventure paths as a litmus test for the limitations of the rules is a bad idea, because there's a major disconnect in them once you start talking about item creation. And since this is an item reaction thread..
Do recall, PFS threw custom items out for a reason.
It's like Quiddich - it's a highly complicated game, in which all the fantastically variant rules are meaningless because the guy who catches the yellow tennis ball auto-wins.
Viktor Krum disagrees.
You know, when I pointed the rules for crafting out to my GM, he immediately nixed it for my wizard. Naturally, when he was playing in my game, he tried to argue I was being unfair when I nixed it for his Theurge as well.
If the item cast the spell itself, does it need a sufficiently high ability score to cast the spell?
Nope, because here, the "cast" word does not mean actual casting process but activation of built-in ability that works closer to (self) use activated spell imbedded into item. Also rules allow for creation of items with low ability scores and high level spells without noting higher required ability scores.
If the item cast the spell itself, does it need a sufficiently high ability score to cast the spell?Nope, because here, the "cast" word does not mean actual casting process but activation of built-in ability that works closer to (self) use activated spell imbedded into item. Also rules allow for creation of items with low ability scores and high level spells without noting higher required ability scores.
What if the intelligent item is a Staff? It can cast the spells stored in it, right? It would need a relevant ability high enough to do so I suppose?
That's what Sauron did. The one ring was basically an intelligent phylactery. It housed the spirit of Sauron, making it impossible to kill him while it existed. Since in D&D terms it would have been magically re-inforced and probably forged out of the hardest metal known, it would have had a hardness somewhere around 30-40 (making it impossible to destroy by most means in the E6 that was LotR :P), and a kickass Ego score.Or you make the phylactery the intelligent item! Special purpose "survive."Intelligent Construct Armor with a Lich's Phylactery hidden inside....hmmmmm
So if an intelligent item can cast spells on its own without using the wielder's actions, what happens when it casts a spell with the range personal? Does it effect the wielder or the item?
We've had this discussion before, Ash: Sauron=/=lich.
:P
Heh, call it TrollVon.
Nah Cheapy, the math goes out the window, because if you properly min/max your spellcraft roll plus ten, you can craft CL 20 crap when you're first learning Fireball, bypassing the spell prereqs you clearly don't know anyway. It's like Quiddich - it's a highly complicated game, in which all the fantastically variant rules are meaningless because the guy who catches the yellow tennis ball auto-wins.
Sigh.
Catching the Snitch just (a) ends the game and (b) nets your team an extra -- I think it was -- 150 points.
You can catch the Snitch and lose.
Heh, call it TrollVon.
Nah Cheapy, the math goes out the window, because if you properly min/max your spellcraft roll plus ten, you can craft CL 20 crap when you're first learning Fireball, bypassing the spell prereqs you clearly don't know anyway. It's like Quiddich - it's a highly complicated game, in which all the fantastically variant rules are meaningless because the guy who catches the yellow tennis ball auto-wins.
Sigh.
Catching the Snitch just (a) ends the game and (b) nets your team an extra -- I think it was -- 150 points.
You can catch the Snitch and lose.
Yeah, but only if you're down by a huge amount of points and then actively choose to end the game instead of prolonging it to have a chance at winning. Any seeker worth a crap who was about to catch the snitch down 160 would bat it away to prolong the game and hope his pals scored some more.
In other words, it happens about as often (effectively never) as anyone ever failing a spellcraft check to craft something in Pathfinder, even on items vastly higher than their own level requiring spell prereqs they won't have for years. Which was my point. *wink*