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It sucks the flavor and variety out of the game.
And allows the players to add it back in. In the first editions weapons all did the same damage, so the flavor was the only difference between attacks.
But if that doesn't work for you, seriously, use these rules.
The exotic weapons that came earlier in the day of 3rd edition had less flash than later ones.
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even if exotic weapon prof gave you ALL of them, I am not sure it would be worth a feat from a pure mechanical stand point beyond the falcata.
DDO made exotic bastard sword and dwarven axe worthwhile by giving them glancing blow quality that gave a small chance to make an attack roll against any adjacent enemies for fractional damage...with supporting feats to apply weapon effects and more damage and more percentage. Not sure you can do something like this for a table top tho. Even still, the falcata was the exotic of choice in that game. So...basically what we need to do is make all the exotics line up with the falcata.
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So I am curious, what if the whole catagory of "Exotic" vanished? What if we just killed the whole need for "Exotic Weapon" feat?
What would be the real impact on the game? Would it be so bad?
What if the Exotic Weapon proficiency also granted additional bonuses to the weapon? hit perhaps or maybe initiative bonuses when wielding it?
IMO, the only 3 weapons that may possibly be worth a feat are:
Falcatas, Nets, Whips
That said, I believe Falcatas are overrated and you probably have better (and much cooler) stuff to spend that feat on.
Nets are awesome, but since they target touch AC, they can be very useful even if you're not proficient.
I like whips, but they require a somewhat long feat chain to actually work. (Not something rare in PF, unfortunatelly)
Basically, IMHO:
EWP:(Falcata) is boring as hell. It increases DPR, but doesn't allow you to do anything cool or different. I'd never spend a feat on this for the same reason I don't ever pick Weapon Specialization. It feels like my character didn't get anything new.
EWP:(Net or Whip) is okay if you pursue the appropriate feat chains. These weapons do give you a few new options in combat and can make your character feel more unique, instead of being just another longsword/falchion/scimitar/falcata on the battlefield.
So, yeah, most exotic weapons could be martial weapons without any problem. Bastard Sword among them.
And now I want to make a whip-and-net Dawflower Dervish fighter... I wonder if it's viable...
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The only reason I would ever use a bastard sword is if I got proficency for free through favored weapon like I am playing an inquistor of ragathiel. a bastard sword is better than a morningstar. I don't take exotic weapon proficency ever.
even if exotic weapon prof gave you ALL of them, I am not sure it would be worth a feat from a pure mechanical stand point beyond the falcata.(nods)
So how about something like this as a feat?
"Feat-Weapons Master
Starting at level one, and then 3 levels after that, you may become proficient in one more weapon of your choice."
It wouldn't be unbalanced, I don't think, but it would be a lot more fun.
I like it. Though I'd base it on BAB instead of class level.
I like it. Though I'd base it on BAB instead of class level.even if exotic weapon prof gave you ALL of them, I am not sure it would be worth a feat from a pure mechanical stand point beyond the falcata.(nods)
So how about something like this as a feat?
"Feat-Weapons Master
Starting at level one, and then 3 levels after that, you may become proficient in one more weapon of your choice."
It wouldn't be unbalanced, I don't think, but it would be a lot more fun.
I like that idea if it were based on BAB as Lemmy suggests.
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Yuh know, I might be a total Heretic(tm) but every Barbarian I've ever played has taken Exotic Weapon Prof., Bastard Sword. Every time.
I don't mind spending a feat on something that makes me feel kool.
I also don't mind beheading orcs one handed.
I also have jumped off the top of a castle, one hand gripping a potion, the other swinging my b. sword at harpies - hoping for blood, expecting failure.
Just FYI.
A bit of extra blade, must pay feat.
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Well it could be made balanced to old long, by being 1d8 when it is used one handed.
Correct; the exotic proficiency is ONLY so you can use the weapon in one hand. Because as a one handed weapon, it's better than every other one-handed weapon in the core game.
Warhammer is better when it crits, bastard creeps ahead when crits don't come up.
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If you wanna make a bastard sword kind of cool, you could make it an exotic longsword that is treated as being two-handed for the purposes of strength and power attack modifiers when wielded in 1 hand. Suddenly, the longsword is no longer the laughing stock that it is. Nay, suddenly it (and by proxy its brother the waraxe) would be the best 1 handers around, and you wouldn't even need to have a bigger die size.
/random idea
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Correct; the exotic proficiency is ONLY so you can use the weapon in one hand. Because as a one handed weapon, it's better than every other one-handed weapon in the core game.Warhammer is better when it crits, bastard creeps ahead when crits don't come up.
Scimitar is better than Bastard Sword (it has twice the crit range, doesn't cost a feat, can be 1-handed or 2-handed, has a higher damage output at higher levels due to critical %, and most importantly can be 1 or 2 handed as needed without wasting a feat). I'd say Longswords are better two (again because of feat tax making it worthless). I'd even be willing to bet that clubs are better than bastard swords (clubs can be wielded in 1 or 2 hands without a feat, are free, and have a range increment which allows you to throw them, and as of ultimate combat you can carry fragile clubs to inflict bleed damage with).
The problem with the bastard sword (and many other exotics) is simple. Feat tax for poor to moderate weapons. It's like saying "here is an option that is worth $0.50 more than its $1.00 cousins, but to use it you must spend $3.00 worth of taxes". Nobody who understands the mechanics is going to take it because +1 to average damage is not worth a feat, especially when options that don't require the feat are strait up better.
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If you wanna make a bastard sword kind of cool, you could make it an exotic longsword that is treated as being two-handed for the purposes of strength and power attack modifiers when wielded in 1 hand. Suddenly, the longsword is no longer the laughing stock that it is. Nay, suddenly it (and by proxy its brother the waraxe) would be the best 1 handers around, and you wouldn't even need to have a bigger die size.
/random idea
I would say maybe one or the other. Assuming 18 str, the bastard sword would give you 2 extra damage...which would put it's DPR in the same range as the falcata.
I kinda like the PA idea tho. It makes more sense. You can't really generate more power one handed as two that represents the 1.5 str bonus for THF...but the bastard sword is more massive so giving it the better PA bonus makes a good deal of sense.
Scimitar is better than Bastard Sword (it has twice the crit range, doesn't cost a feat, can be 1-handed or 2-handed, has a higher damage output at higher levels due to critical %, and most importantly can be 1 or 2 handed as needed without wasting a feat). I'd say Longswords are better two (again because of feat tax making it worthless). I'd even be willing to bet that clubs are better than bastard swords (clubs can be wielded in 1 or 2 hands without a feat, are free, and have a range increment which allows you to throw them, and as of ultimate combat you can carry fragile clubs to inflict bleed damage with).
The problem with the bastard sword (and many other exotics) is simple. Feat tax for poor to moderate weapons. It's like saying "here is an option that is worth $0.50 more than its $1.00 cousins, but to use it you must spend $3.00 worth of taxes". Nobody who understands the mechanics is going to take it because +1 to average damage is not worth a feat, especially when options that don't require the feat are strait up better.
There are some very narrow situations where it's a good choice. Like if you're a tengu and get proficiency with all sword-like weapons, you might as well use it instead of that longsword you were going to use anyway.
There's also... well I think that's it. Yeah, bastard swords kinda suck.
Or the character you have in mind picked one up during training one day and liked it?
It's not all about math guys. It's about the concept too. You can still make a really badass character with a bastard sword. It's not all about the numbers all the time. I've made plenty a character with "subpar" weapons and still been one of the more effective party members and great in social situations. Not everyone wants to wield a scimitar or a falcata :P
One thing I don't like about exotic weapon proficincy is you can't take it at level 1 with the 3/4 bab classes and my full bab characters usually focus on bows or other martial weapons to choose from. I don't like the idea of oh I am third level and now my character changes to an entirely different weapon and stlye that he had no training in before.
You don't need to sacrifice mechanics for flavor, it's pretty easy to have both. Just use a longsword and describe it as a bastard sword; you aren't going to miss the single point of damage, but you'd definitely miss the feat wasted on it.
Not every weapon is created equal, look at the morningstar, it's better than pretty much every other simple weapon (except the spear, which is about equal), cheaper, bigger damage code, more damage types, and it's still considered simple.
Or the character you have in mind picked one up during training one day and liked it?My paladin choosing a bastard sword and shield does not change the fact that the bastard sword is a poor choice.
Still, I understand optimization, but not every character should be a scimitar wielding damage machine. They don't all have to be as long as they keep up.
Or the character you have in mind picked one up during training one day and liked it?
It's not all about math guys. It's about the concept too. You can still make a really badass character with a bastard sword. It's not all about the numbers all the time. I've made plenty a character with "subpar" weapons and still been one of the more effective party members and great in social situations. Not everyone wants to wield a scimitar or a falcata :P
No, it's not about concept. It has nothing to do with concept. As Aratrok points out...
You don't need to sacrifice mechanics for flavor, it's pretty easy to have both. Just use a longsword and describe it as a bastard sword; you aren't going to miss the single point of damage, but you'd definitely miss the feat wasted on it.
This is exactly what I would do as well. There is almost no real difference between a longsword and a bastard sword. A longsword can be wielded in 1 hand and can be wielded in 2 hands. Heck, if you have someone in your group who's really anal about weapons, then you probably already know that the longsword is exactly what D&D describes as a bastard sword (or even a greatsword).
Bad mechanics is not a punishment for a concept. Concepts should not be punished. You should not be punished for roleplaying. You should not have to go without because X historical weapon hasn't been printed yet. You should not have to go without because Y historical weapon has horrible mechanics. If you want a tetsubo, just grab a club, great club, morning star, or 2-handed morning star (2d6/x2, piercing/bludgeoning) or some other large bludgeoning weapon and call it a day. In the same way, if Paizo (or some other publisher) puts out mechanics that are goofy or just really bad (such as in the case of the bastard sword) you could just grab a similar but mechanically functional weapon (such as a longsword) and call it a day.
Funny how everything old becomes new again. This is exactly how we used to do it a long time ago. The first books didn't have the wide range of weapons/armor/etc so we just picked something close, re-named it, and "called it a day".
I think that bastard sword hits a great sweetspot. If you use it marshally it is a two hander if you take the feat you get a bump to damage die. I think this fits very nicely for the standard sword and board type.
Falcatas fit a different spot not as much damage on every hit but a big bump on crits.
If you don't want to use it one handed don't take the feat.
Given the historical weapon it is trying to fill in for I think it is good just as it is.
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I think that bastard sword hits a great sweetspot. If you use it marshally it is a two hander if you take the feat you get a bump to damage die. I think this fits very nicely for the standard sword and board type.
Meh. If Weapon Specialization wasn't Fighter only there would be no reason to take bastard sword proficency. All it does is increase your damage range by two. Weapon Specialization increases every damage roll by two.
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Hasn't aged well as it is one of the 1st exotic weapons from 3.0. Exotics tweaking the crit range of a weapon or the crit modifier seem to be the way to go. 3.5 some builds abused tripping or whatever but it seems harder to do in PF.
I ;ike the suggesiton that EWP:bastard sword gains you a bigger dice and you can treat it as a two handed weapon for power attack. Traditioanlly exotics were better in one way (bigger dice, threat range/multiplier, special ability etc) but new ones like the katana get the traditional buff and a minor ability like deadly as well. Older weapons don't keep up with power inflation.
Simple way around this: change EWP to an untyped trait. That's about what it's worth for some weapons.
People get excited about the scimitar, but it's not that hot. Compared to the humble longsword, you lose a point of damage in exchange for 5% extra crits. So to get that point back, you need a +19 damage bonus or some funny effects like shocking burst or a critical feat. In one hand, +19 means something like 22 Str, WpnSpec, +6 PA, +3 weapon, Weapon Training 2 and Prayer, ie a 9th level fighter. Until that point, it's worse. And to beat the Bastard Sword, you need +41 damage bonus.
I have seen many real life versions. Not just including the silly stuff and the Renaissance Fairs but in museums. Some examples can be a bit longer and heavier but factually the most common difference is the handle of the sword is extended slightly allowing more leverage and/or forces to be put into a blow. I know I'm not telling anyone anything new ;) but I think that with some slight mods to stats it could have been placed back into the Martial category. In AD&D it was my primary weapon and now it's a wasted feat. Tragic IMO. It also saddens me that weapon speeds were done away with. They could be brought back with penalties or bonuses to initiative based on the weapon maybe. IDk Any thoughts?
You've seen the same hand and a half swords as me then. And I agree, the weapon speed rules really made it worthwhile going dagger and other fast weapons. It used to be a fearful thing seeing your opponent whipping out two daggers to face you, now you just laugh.
Meh. If Weapon Specialization wasn't Fighter only there would be no reason to take bastard sword proficency. All it does is increase your damage range by two. Weapon Specialization increases every damage roll by two.
You can take both feats, if you want. EWP is also available at first, weapon spec. you have to wait until 4th to get. Also, if you are large, or regularly become large, it swtiches to 2d8, or an averge of 9, vs 2d6 or an average of 7.
So, if you want to do sword and shield, but don't want to do shield bashing, and don't want the falcata for some reason, and you can become or already are large, or are planning to train out of it at 4th, it isn't a terrible choice.
Faint praise and all that.
I could also see adding the following feat:
Bastard sword expert: You have learned how to use the bastard sword one handed with the same power that other people perform two handed.
Prerequisites: Bastard sword proficiency, weapon focus (Bastard Sword), weapon specialization (Bastard sword)
When wielding the bastard sword one handed, you treat your damage bonus to strength and power attack as if you are wielding the bastard sword two handed.
I think that bastard sword hits a great sweetspot. If you use it marshally it is a two hander if you take the feat you get a bump to damage die. I think this fits very nicely for the standard sword and board type.Meh. If Weapon Specialization wasn't Fighter only there would be no reason to take bastard sword proficency. All it does is increase your damage range by two. Weapon Specialization increases every damage roll by two.
Spending a feat on Weapon Focus and wielding a Longsword would be just as good as spending a feat and wielding a bastard sword in one hand. Weapon specialization isn't even necessary. :\
The +5% hit goes a lot farther than +1 average damage. That being said, there is one situation where bastard swords get better results and that's when you're enlarged out of your mind. An eldritch knight using Giant Form II might get a bit more mileage out of a bastard sword, but even then it's probably not worth the investment.
EDIT: For those with feats to burn, Weapon Focus + Power Attack = +2-3 damage at 1st level with nothing lost, and +5% to hit when you don't wanna Power Attack.
Simple way around this: change EWP to an untyped trait. That's about what it's worth for some weapons.
People get excited about the scimitar, but it's not that hot. Compared to the humble longsword, you lose a point of damage in exchange for 5% extra crits. So to get that point back, you need a +19 damage bonus or some funny effects like shocking burst or a critical feat. In one hand, +19 means something like 22 Str, WpnSpec, +6 PA, +3 weapon, Weapon Training 2 and Prayer, ie a 9th level fighter. Until that point, it's worse. And to beat the Bastard Sword, you need +41 damage bonus.
I think scims and falchions are considered so hot, because if you have a few great sessions of rolling, they really shine. Especially when paired with sneak attack.
I think scims and falchions are considered so hot, because if you have a few great sessions of rolling, they really shine. Especially when paired with sneak attack.
What? All melee weapons sneak attack for exactly the same damage. Critting doesn't increase your sneak attack damage.
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I think that bastard sword hits a great sweetspot. If you use it marshally it is a two hander if you take the feat you get a bump to damage die. I think this fits very nicely for the standard sword and board type.Meh. If Weapon Specialization wasn't Fighter only there would be no reason to take bastard sword proficency. All it does is increase your damage range by two. Weapon Specialization increases every damage roll by two.Spending a feat on Weapon Focus and wielding a Longsword would be just as good as spending a feat and wielding a bastard sword in one hand. Weapon specialization isn't even necessary. :\
The +5% hit goes a lot farther than +1 average damage. That being said, there is one situation where bastard swords get better results and that's when you're enlarged out of your mind. An eldritch knight using Giant Form II might get a bit more mileage out of a bastard sword, but even then it's probably not worth the investment.
EDIT: For those with feats to burn, Weapon Focus + Power Attack = +2-3 damage at 1st level with nothing lost, and +5% to hit when you don't wanna Power Attack.
My EK generally use the BS...but even then, it is only a difference of 3 damage on average. For a spell that kicks in at level 17 (although you can use undead form 3 for huge form sooner). On a side note, you can enlarge person yourself for even bigger damage dice as giants are humanoids and enlarge person is not a polymorph effect for a slight bigger boost in damage (but mostly for reach). In anycase, it is something that comes up REALLY late game, and I pick the BS because I like them mostly. My favorite sword in real life is a BS. But mechanically, yeah complete dud.
I think scims and falchions are considered so hot, because if you have a few great sessions of rolling, they really shine. Especially when paired with sneak attack.What? All melee weapons sneak attack for exactly the same damage. Critting doesn't increase your sneak attack damage.
If something crits quite commonly, and you add sneak to that... It is very effective.
Of course sneak is not multiplied.
Taking a x3 weapon really pays off for a sneak attack if you get the 20, not so much if you never see a 20, but get plenty of 18s, 19s, etc.
There is a reason to take EWP: Bastard Sword or similar. If your character is only proficient with single weapons, might as well spend the feat on exotic rather than martial.
But yes, very marginal usefulness.
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I only take them if my PC is an evil offspring of a single mother.
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I think the approach to give an exotic weapon something beside dmg/crit stats is a intressting approach to make EWP more intresting.
You have it with the elven curved blade which gives a bonus to resist sunder.
Maybe with the Bastard sword something like "If you use a Basterd sword in one hand and nothing in the other hand, the BS count as 2-H weapon" (which makes it an intresting weapon for e.g. magus) or "you can use 2H Weapon restricted feats (like shield of swings) with a bastard sword even if you wield it one handed"
What about things like half elfs do they get the interesting use of bastard sword through the racial optoin that gives them weapon proficency.