Bard. Spells will be *very* useful, and will let you be much more prepared for the unexpected.
You don't need a Perform skill of choice. None of the abilities of the bard that you'll probably be using require it, other than Versatile Performance. A bard with 0 ranks in any Perform skill is fine.
Archaeologist is a nice fit for this as well. You can deal with traps (important for treasure seekers!), you get rogue talents, you get spells, and you get a wonderful selfbuff in the form of Luck.
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If there is some feature somewhere that let's you use bard song as a sleep spell, that would be a wonderful touch to use with a professor bard.
Lecture them to sleep.
The Sandman archetype has Slumbersong, but it requires you to fascinate them first. So, not exactly boring them to death, more mesmerising and leaving them in a trance.
Sunbeam, that's the Archivist archetype.
Which is actually a professor!
There is an alchemist archetype devoted to crypt delving and treasure hunting. I don't know if the mechanics are actually any good as I'm on my phone, but you might check it out. I think it sort of "rogues up" the alchemist.
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Totally agree that Oratory can be a very cool performance - as can all of the perform skills, if you think about them in the right way. My problem with perform in general here is that I just don't see this guy as a performer at all, really - he makes a living tracking down obscure ruins and artifacts for high-paying patrons. Rogue or bard could fit that, and the bard option would focus on his knowledge skills, spells, and ability with weapons if needed.
Oratory is also great for telling stories of your adventures. :)
That said, if going Archaeologist, you need no Performances (though you also won't be giving your buddy bonuses).
Well, ok, so if I go Archaeologist bard, what is a good setup for feats/weapons? Keeping in mind I can't *just* be ranged, as there are only 2 of us.
Personally? I'd grab Weapon Finesse, then focus on the Archery Feats. Go primary ranged but have an (eventually Agile) Rapier or something like that for emergency melee.
That'll handle the situation, though considering how Feat starved Archer Bards are even without it, it pretty much necessitates being Human.
Go for the Bard the rogue is much weaker of a class and actually gets less skills. A Bard has a big advantage in skills because of Bardic Lore. By putting a single point into every knowledge by 12th level you will be at least +10 every knowledge skill. That works out to the equivalent of an extra 60 skill points.
For a treasure hunting Bard go for the Archeologist Archetype and you will do better against traps than a rogue. This will also give you some rogue talents as well. The Archeologists Luck is also incredibly versatile because it applies to both combat and skills. This also means you don't have to worry about performance because you don't have Bardic Performance or Versatile performance.
Play a human and use the favored class bonus for extra spells. Use the extra feat for combat maybe picking up a proficiency with scimitar and weapon finesse aiming for Dervish Dance.
STR 12, DEX 18 (20 with Racial), CON 15, INT 15, WIS 14, CHA 16
With those stats you could multiclass...
A seeker sorcerer would be one good way to start, as you'll get spells and trapfinding/disable device.
Ranger (Trapper)/Wizard/Eldritch Knight gets a lot of different class skills, trapfinding, spells, and decent combat ability.
Just a couple thoughts...but spells, to me, are going to be really important for artifact hunting and dungeon delving.
The archaeologist did not get Disable Device on purpose.
Bard Archeologist seems almost patterned after Indiana Jones style play, which sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
I guess I haven't totally ruled out multiclassing yet, either. Right now I'm working through the Archaeologist thing to see how my skills etc. would work out.
Would you mind elaborating on what you mean with regard to spells being important? I mean obviously they're great, but specifically for artifact hunting/dungeon delving -- which spells do you see as being indispensable? I'm having a difficult time deciding right now, aside from some clear must-haves like Grease and Expeditious Retreat.
Stuff like spider climb, invisibility, almost all of the divinations, levitation, comprehend languages, teleport spells, identify, water breathing....just off the top of my head. Of course you can try to do a lot of it with skills, but it's a heck of a lot more effective with spells most of the time.
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Here is my suggested build. With only 2 players I think you will be in melee more often than ranged. You do not have a meat shield to hide behind. I put the level four stat boost to INT for more skills and the increased knowedges.
BARD CR 3
Male Human Bard (Archaeologist) 4
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 31 (4d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Scimitar +9 (1d6+5/18-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +8 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Shortbow, Composite (Str +1) +9 (1d6/20/x3)
Bard (Archaeologist) Spells Known (CL 4, +8 melee touch, +8 ranged touch):
2 (2/day) Minor Image (DC 15), Invisibility
1 (4/day) Expeditious Retreat (DC 14), Disguise Self (DC 14), Charm Person (DC 14), Grease (DC 14), Cure Light Wounds (DC 14)
0 (at will) Open/Close (DC 13), Know Direction (DC 13), Read Magic (DC 13), Message, Light, Ghost Sound (DC 13), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Sift
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Dervish Dance, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar, Weapon Finesse
Traits Armor Expert, Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +9, Appraise +9, Bluff +7, Climb +6, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +16, Disguise +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (Engineering) +9, Knowledge (Geography) +9, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Local) +9, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Nobility) +9, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Linguistics +8, Perception +10, Perform (Dance) +8, Sense Motive +6, Sleight of Hand +9, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +11, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven
SQ Archaeologist's Luck +1 (7 rounds/day) (Ex), Bardic Knowledge +2 (Ex), Clever Explorer +2 (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex)
Combat Gear Masterwork Scimitar, Masterwork Shortbow, Composite (Str +1), Mithral Chain Shirt; Other Gear Handy Haversack (empty), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Cure Light Wounds
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Archaeologist's Luck +1 (7 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/7
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 0/50
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Archaeologist's Luck +1 (7 rounds/day) (Ex) Gain Luck bonus to attack, damage, saves, and all skills.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Bardic Knowledge +2 (Ex) Add + 2 to all knowledge skill checks.
Clever Explorer +2 (Ex) Half time to use disable device.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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Vagabond Child essentially gives me a total of +4 to Disable Device (+1 trait bonus, +3 trained as it becomes a class skill). Sort of a poor man's Skill Focus. At first I wondered if I could find other traits that would be more useful (since the Archaeologist already gets a nice boost in this area), but the more I look at that, the more I like it.
It really is pretty much made of win for an Archaeologist.
For some reason I missed that bards get Invisibility at spell level 2. Great!
Yeah, they get some nice 2nd level Spells. Glitterdust is probably my favorite. :)
I understand the awesomeness of Dervish Dance + scimitar, but I don't think I'll go that route. A scimitar just doesn't fit the image I have in my head. Of course, I don't quite know yet what does. :)
Rapier or short sword and buckler maybe? It's a classic and would help your AC. It's not optimal from a damage dealing perspective, but very survivable.
But that potentially frees up all 3 feats. I remember reading somewhere that some folks consider Weapon Finesse a 'trap'. I guess if you're doing damage keyed off Str, that is the case, and as my Str wouldn't be half bad to begin with, I wonder if I could find some other way of doing damage.
Weapon Finesse isn't bad at all. Just grab an Agile Weapon (weapon enhancement that adds Dex instead of Str to damage) and maybe Piranha Strike (Power Attack for finesse fighters) and you're damage can be quite respectable.
It'll never be as optimal as the high Strength guy's, but then your AC will be significantly higher.
It's funny - bards seem starved for feats, but on the other hand there aren't a ton of feats that seem totally required. If that makes sense. Maybe I'm just overwhelmed with the feat selection.
Well, if you want to do the switch hitter thing there's Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.
If you want to focus on Dex-based melee, you can grab Arcane Strike, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Finesse.
Spell Focus of some sort is also valid if you wanted to focus on casting.
Oh, and I've been wondering about that floating +2. If instead I left Dex at 18 and bumped Cha up to 18 as well, that would make my spell DCs a bit better, which I'm always paranoid about when playing a caster. Is it more advantageous to keep the Dex bonus for AC and other things?
Depends on what you're aiming for. If focusing on raw combat power and buff spells, go with Dex 20, if you want to do more casting that people get saves vs. then the Cha might be more useful.
Good choice on not choosing dervish dance!
I recommend a half-elf or gnome for Archaeologists. The +1 rounds of bardic performance a level really help out, especially when you grab Lingering Performance. My half-elf bard had ~33 rounds of Luck at level 4, which was enough to *always* have it up.
Plus, low light vision is pretty useful for this sort of thing, and if you were going dervish dance, may as well go half-elf instead of human to not have to pick up the Martial Weapon Prof with your feats.
Plus they're immune to ghoul's paralysis!
Bards have done fine without them before, they do fine without them now ;)
Good choice on not choosing dervish dance!
I recommend a half-elf or gnome for Archaeologists. The +1 rounds of bardic performance a level really help out, especially when you grab Lingering Performance. My half-elf bard had ~33 rounds of Luck at level 4, which was enough to *always* have it up.
I think this would be a mistake. Having only two memebers of your party your spells are going to be a lot more important than your Bardic Music buffs.
As a 4th level human Bard you'd have 13 Rounds of Bardic music, that would get you well past 1 enounter, and probably most of the way through another. Then if you consider at 4th level you have access to the Heroism spell, which is better than Inspire Courage and lasts 40 minutes at 4th level, and consider as a Human you will get bonuses to the number of spells know, making it more likely to take Heroism (and alter self for the times you need Low-light or Darkvision)
if you were going dervish dance, may as well go half-elf instead of human to not have to pick up the Martial Weapon Prof with your feats.
You wouldn't really be gaining anything here. You'd lose your bonus human feat anyway.
So going Half-Elf you'd gain Low-Light vision and some bonuses to saves vs limited spells, and gain extra rounds of bardic performance. You'd be losing a feat (if you didn't go dervish), a skill point per level, and a spell known per level. Personally I think that's a horrible trade. Add on top of that, if you used your human feat to for Extra Performance, you'd be better off than a Half-Elf until level 7, which oddly enough is when a human would get an extra level 2 spell known as a favored class bonus and could take Heroism.
So when you really look at it, if you give up human for half-elf, you're trading spells known, an extra feat, and a skill point per level for low-light vision.
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I think this would be a mistake. Having only two memebers of your party your spells are going to be a lot more important than your Bardic Music buffs.
As a 4th level human Bard you'd have 13 Rounds of Bardic music, that would get you well past 1 enounter, and probably most of the way through another. Then if you consider at 4th level you have access to the Heroism spell, which is better than Inspire Courage and lasts 40 minutes at 4th level, and consider as a Human you will get bonuses to the number of spells know, making it more likely to take Heroism (and alter self for the times you need Low-light or Darkvision)
Uh...Archaeologists don't gain Bardic Performance they gain Luck instead, which only ever effects the Bard himself, and doesn't go up in rounds as you level (unless you're using the Gnome or Half-elf FC stuff). Read up on what you're giving advice on.
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Any level 4 bard can have Heroism and Alter Self. At level 4, the human bard with their overpowered favored class bonus can finally start taking extra level 1 spells known. At 7th level, then they can take level 2 spells. It's a horrible idea to wait to use those extra spells known to get the spells you need.
Heroism is only better than inspire courage if you don't have inspire courage. And that's not because Heroism is a bad spell. So for an Arch, it's great.
To get enough rounds for Luck, the human bard will have to take Extra Performances if he wants it up all the time, not to mention Lingering Performance.
So what is the human arch gaining? Some extra spells that can't be your highest level ones and that you'll do fine without, and one extra skill point per level. That bonus feat is wasted.
The half-elf arch? He gets LLV (don't have to spend your very limited spells per day on this!), a nice bonus that stacks with all others to the most important skill in the game, skill focus or a weapon proficiency (hello Falcata), bonuses to saves vs some of the most important spells in the game.
Oh, and pointy ears. Can't forget those.
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Is it stretching too much to say that Arch. Luck gets an additional 2 rds/day with each additional level gained by the character?
Yes, it is stretching too much. It was never intended to last as long as Bardic Performance, per the people at Paizo.
Someone at Paizo did suggest that it being a flat number was a mistake, but the suggested fix was Level + Cha Mod rds per day, not anything making it equal to a normal Bard.
This makes Lingering Performance really good for Archaeologists.
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If you're really going for the Indiana Jones feel, consider picking upp firearms proficeincy and the snag a whip. There are feats to allow you to wield either your whip or sword with out getting attacks of opportunities. You can pick up deadly aim to increase your damage with both I believe, as the whip does count in some instances a ranged weapon, you can snag a scorpion whip to inflict leathal damage. Another idea would be to take a level of Spellslinger. With that, you can drop a spell that you're not planning on using to add an effect to your arcane gun, and you can pick up a few useful level 1 arcane spells that will be useful at your current level as well as later on.
3 Archeologist Bard/ 1 SpellSlinger-Wizard (HP 3d8+12 +1d6+4 = 38)
12 14 15 15 16 18
15 Str
18 Dex
18 Con (+1 for level, +2 Racial)
14 Int
12 Wis
16 Cha
Int or Wis you can switch out depending on whether you want higher skills or perception. If your not worried about DCs for your few Wizard skills as you'll likely focus on boosting spells then consider the higher wis for perception and saves Traits: Vagabond Child. I don't know where this trait is, but if it does do what everyone on the boards are saying, then by all means pick it up. Also pick up the trait that increase your caster level with the Spellslinger class. It'll help with durational effects.
Assuming human
Bns Feat Weapon Finesse
1st level Serpent Lash - If you succeed on a disarm or trip against one opponent, you may get a free disarm or trip against an adjacent opponent
3rd level Whip Mastery - no attacks of opportunity, may deal normal damage or nonleathel damage with a whip regardless of the enemies armor bonus
@ 5th level pick up a combat feat as the rogue talent and snag both Poewer Attack and Deadly Aim.
Bonus Feats
Gunsmithing from the spell slinger
Firearm proficiency from the spell slinger
Exotic Wpn (Whip) from Bard
@ 4th level @ 5th level
Melee Whip +6 1d3+2(+5 with +1&Agile) Melee Whip +6 1d3+4 (+7)
Advantage (Reach, Trip, Disarm)
Melee Dagger +6 (1d4+2) Melee Dagger +6 1d4+4
Range Dagger +6 (1d4+2) Range Dagger +6 1d4+4
(Arcane Gun +1) +7 (1d6+1 + 1d6 energy) @ 5th level +2 damage
Advantage : range touch in 20ft, add elemental damage by sacrificing a spell, last 1 minute per level of spell sacrificed
Note, does not include any bonuses from bardic abilities
Wiz spells: Burning Disarm, Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike, Moment of Greatness, Fabricate bullets.
Opposed Schools, Abjuration, evocation, illusion, necromancy.
Saves: Fort + 5
Refl + 7
Will + 5
I removed a post and a reply to it. Don't be a jerk.
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Pathfinder Delver isn't bad at all for what you seem to be aiming for, as 20 levels, I'd go Bard (Archaeologist) 14/Pathfinder Delver 6 (7+ aren't really worth it, IMO). Eventually getting all the way to 5th level spells.
And yeah, I'd go for 3rd level spells as soon as possible Good Hope and Haste are both far too good to pass up. After that you could go Pathfinder Delver for a while, then return to Bard. Maybe alternate a bit.
I would not try to fit a third class in there. More than two is almost always a bad idea unless it's required as a multiclass prerequisite.
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I think Reactionary is definitely a good choice for the build, but need another one...
I am indeed in the market for whip-related feats, but not seeing a whole lot that sem very useful, outside of Combat Expertise + Improved Trip, etc.
I'd grab Prehensile Whip. It's cool and flavorful and presumably what Name Violation is talking about.
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Awesome, thanks! I spend so much time poring over the feats I sometimes forget to check out traits. Also I don't have the Armory, so I wouldn't even have thought about that.
You're very welcome. Always glad to be of assistance. :)
And when doing character building stuff with Feats or Traits I almost always go to the PFSRD for that very reason. I mean, I'll look at a particular book if I know what I'm looking for, but for random searching, you can't beat the database with everything.
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I love the SRD - it just never occurred to me that there were that many other traits to consider!
Yeah, there are a lot of them.
So, I'm settling in on some things with this character. I want to make use of that 20 dex, so I'll grab some ranged feats as well as Weapon Finesse, and use a rapier for melee, and a shortbow at range. The whip will be just a utility thing, as I don't think I can afford the feats.
Remember to grab an Agile Rapier when you can. Dex to damage is a wonderful thing.
Feats will be as follows, I think:
1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (human bonus)
3 - Quick Draw
4 - Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse - rogue talent via Archaeologist)
Looks good, for the most part.
The only thing I'm sort of uncertain about there is Quick Draw. Since we are a 2-player party, though, I imagine we will be in and out of melee quite a bit, and I figured it would be handy to get a quick shot off, or toss a dagger, or something, and then switch to rapier for melee.
I'd honestly skip Quick Draw for now. I mean, you can already drop things as a Free and draw as part of a move, so all you're losing out on is a Full Attack action...which is meaningless to you at this point (one attack only, remember?). I'd grab either Arcane Strike (increases damage, works on both the bow and the sword) or Rapid Shot (if you want to focus on the archery) instead.
I'm wondering about TWF... rapier plus dagger seems very cool... but I'm not positive I'll really be able to pull it off effectively.
Yeah, it's really not a good idea for this build. Grab a buckler instead. Great AC booster in melee, doesn't interfere with archery.
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Bard and rogue are the first that come to mind but a fighter-magic user like the magus is also classic (at least before arcane spell failure). A magus with a rapier would be pretty cool and with a crit range of 18-20 it's pretty good for crits with your spells. Although if your wife is going to be a monk then playing either a bard or an oracle would make sense for both diplomacy/bluffing and also healing.