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Thanks for confirming!

For the Sword Saint (Samurai archetype), Iaijutsu Strike is an ability that takes a full-round action:

he may choose to use his iaijutsu strike as a full-round action, making an attack roll with his weapon as normal

Can this be combined with a called shot? Here's the relevant text on called shots:

A called shot is a single attack made as a full-round action, and thus can’t be combined with a charge, feats like Vital Strike, or multiple attacks with a full-attack action.

My guess is no, they can't be combined, but I'm bad at understanding the difference between when you can & can't combine actions.

...

Basically, you challenge your foe(s) and they get bonuses to attack you and penalties attacking your allies.

I know this is months too late, but it occurred to me that the Samurai & Cavalier actually fill the role of 'tough frontliner who draws fire' really well. The reference to 'challenge' in the above post is what made me think of it.

The Challenge ability for Cav/Sam allows them to deal extra damage to an enemy - and it also *lowers* the Cav/Sam's own AC, making it easier for everyone (except the challenge target) to hit them.

The various Orders and archetypes give different bonuses (and in some cases penalties) to the Challenge, making the Cav/Sam an even greater threat (and in some cases even more of a tempting target to hit).

For example, Order of the Cockatrice deals additional extra damage to his Challenge target. Order of the Flame gets additional challenges within combat, but at the interesting tradeoff of ever-decreasing AC - meaning he gets more dangerous to enemies as the battle wears on, but also more vulnerable to hits.

The Sword Saint archetype for Samurai deals sneak-attack levels of extra damage on an opening hit, but takes an *additional* -4 AC (on top of the -2 for every Challenge) for a round after doing that opening move.

In all these cases, you've got a full-BAB, heavy-armor-wearing character who can deal attention-getting levels of damage to an enemy - but the very class feature that allows him to deal that damage also encourages *other* enemies to pile on him and stop the threat.

And I'll point out that the Samurai, more than the Cavalier, has several tools (particularly Resolve) that allow him to potentially survive that pile-on.

What I like about this is that it fills the role of a 'tank' without feeling like a gimmick or a video game. It's just a natural consequence of the Cav/Sam's use of Challenge, and it works fantastically for roleplay. The PC focuses all his attention on his challenged foe, and intelligent enemies will notice that he's leaving himself exposed to melee attacks. If it's played well at the table, the Cav/Sam doesn't necessarily need to invest into a bunch of area-denial feats, and he doesn't need to get into stuff like Antagonize either.

The DM being open to the cinematic potential (and playing enemies appropriately) is important here. But the opportunities are great. If a Samurai doesn't end a fight wounded, studded with arrows and having just shaken off a fear spell, he's not doing it right :P

I was looking at Bull Rush Strike more as another thing to do with crits. Using a katana, probably keen at that level, with the confirmation bonuses from both the Samurai class and Sword Saint archetype, would lead to some decent crit chance, and I was thinking it would enhance the image of this character as a master swordsman if he had some utility options in addition to the damage boost on a crit.

BRS seems like a good defensive option for Iaijutsu Strike (get the bad guys out of melee range so they can't retaliate), but depending on battlefield terrain it could come up in other scenarios. So a nice to have thing that allows my character to do some fun positioning when it comes up.

Later on, Great Bull Rush Strike would be nice for giving AoOs to party members as the mooks fly by them too :)

Cornugon Smash + Hurtful is indeed a great combo for this character. My only hesitation there is on relying on it too much. Every time I swing I could potentially be rolling ... let's see, once for the initial attack, then damage, then for the free Intimidate check, then if that passes rolling *again* for Hurtful's attack, then another damage roll ... But yeah, power-wise it's a great option!

Staggering Critical is a good one! I could grab that at 13 and then upgrade it to Stunning Critical at 17.

However, it occurs to me that Staggering Critical could *also* work with Bull Rush Strike. Since the latter is not a 'critical' feat it could trigger on the same strike.

I mocked up some numbers for a lvl 9 Sword Saint (Samurai) with Bull Rush Strike. Since BRS uses the confirmation roll to determine whether and how far you push the foe, here's what I'd be working with:

-Critical Focus (acquired at lvl 8 via Order of Vengeance) +4 to confirm

-Weapon Expertise (lvl 3 Samurai ability) +2 to confirm with katana

-Brutal Slash: if the crit occurs during a Iaijutsu Strike, I get 1/2 my Sword Saint level to the confirm. At lvl 9 this would be another +4

So that's a +6 (+10 on Iaijutsu Strike) to confirm, before we add in the +9 from BAB, say a +5 from Str, and whatever enhancements I might have from a weapon ... say +2? Another +2 from Improved Bull Rush (a prereq for BRS). Oh, Order of Vengeance also adds a +1 to hit challenged targets per 4 lvls vs foes I've encountered in the past 24 hours, so assuming a challenged foe that's another +3 at lvl 9.

So conservatively that's a +24 on the confirmation roll; on Iaijutsu Strike it's more like +31.

Seems decent for lvl 9?
That seems like pretty decent odds of overcoming CMD

I'm putting together a Sword Saint Samurai, and I'm aware of the issues with Iaijutsu Strike.

One of the ways to potentially maximize that strike is to make use of the increased crit chance from wielding a katana and getting a crit confirm bonus as part of the archetype.

Bull Rush Strike is something that can be done with a crit, and it seems neat and flavorful. Your confirm roll exceeds the opponent's CMD, and you push them back, with no need to move with them.

That distance somewhat negates one of the weaknesses of the Iaijutsu Strike, the -4 (or -2 at lvl 10) AC penalty in the following round. It could also be handy in certain situations, just like Bull Rush in general.

My main concern is that Bull Rush might become increasingly difficult to pull off at level 9 and above, when this feat is available. I suspect CMDs inflate pretty rapidly - but beyond that, I've got to deal with larger creatures, 4-footed creatures, and so on.

Delaying Critical Focus by a couple of levels is also a bit annoying.

There's also a requirement for Improved Bull Rush, which I could fit in... but now we're talking a 2-feat investment for this one trick.

So, will Bull Rush scale well, or is it kind of a trap?

Another way to think about it might be like so. Taking this from the section on fear:

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

This seems to describe a situation where a character might cast, say, Cause Fear (to make a foe frightened), and then cast it again to increase that foe to panicked.

Since Archives of Nethys does not say demoralize (from Intimidate) doesn't stack with other fear effects, this seems to leave open a situation where, say, one PC casts Cause Fear and another PC Intimidates a frightened foe to make him panicked.

If that is acceptable, then I would wonder where the Sword Saint's Terrifying Iaijutsu fits in. It's not an Intimidate check, so it's not a demoralize effect. It's an Extraordinary ability, so seems to fit more in the same category as the other things mentioned in the 'fear' article on Archives of Nethys.

So, if two consecutive Cause Fears can raise a target's fear level by one step, two Terrifying Iaijutsus could maybe do the same thing, no?

Additionally, if an Intimidate (demoralize) check after a Cause Fear spell could raise a target's fear level a step, an Intimidate (demoralize) check after Terrifying Iaijutsu could do the same thing.

If there is any other rules I'm missing here (or misinterpreting), please let me know!

you might want to check the rogue archetype thug

That is a great option - even gets some sneak attack (could pair nicely with Warrior Poet/Order of the Blossom?). I have a hard time dipping, though - I hate 'delaying' higher level features, even though I know it's often extremely effective & in many cases mechanically superior!

OK, so checking on AoN I noticed this discrepancy between AoN and the d20pfsrd. Here's AoN on demoralizing (using Intimidate) :

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

And here's d20pfsrd:

You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.

Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Fail: The opponent is not shaken.

So the AoN does not have the following sentence:

"This shaken condition doesn't stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened."

Just looking at AoN, I'd have to agree with Melkiador: it reads as though you can't just demoralize a foe into shaken, and then demoralize again into frightened.

That makes sense to me. After all, we have feats like Disheartening Display which seem tailor-made so that a character can Dazzling Display (demoralize) a creature to shaken, and then Dazzle again to frightened.

But the lack of that sentence about 'not stacking with other shaken conditions' on the official AoN makes me wonder about whether demoralize can in fact stack with *other* shaken effects - such as that provided by Iaijutsu Strike's Terrifying Iaijutsu. (I have to agree with Melkiador again here: Terrifying Iaijutsu is not keyed to Intimidate and seems distinct from the demoralize action.)

So let's say I have Terrifying Iaijutsu and Dreadful Carnage:

Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, Furious Focus, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet as a free action. Enemies that cannot see both you and the enemy you reduced to 0 or fewer hit points are unaffected.

Say I've hit with Iaijutsu Strike and made enemies within 30' shaken for a few rounds. Within that time, I drop an enemy and trigger Dreadful Carnage. Are those shaken enemies now frightened, or can I not combine those?

What about if the actions are reversed: Dreadful Carnage first, then Iaijutsu Strike?

Instead of Enforcer I would suggest Cornugon Smash. It can be used with any melee weapon. It does require you have and be using power attack, but most melee focused martial characters will be doing that.

Definitely got my eye on Cornugon Smash ... plus Hurtful to get a second hit in with Iaijutsu Strike :)

The Sword Saint is a Samurai archetype that adds an ability called Iaijutsu Strike.

At lvl 5, this strike can make foes shaken, as follows:

"When a sword saint successfully hits with an iaijutsu strike, all foes within 30 feet must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the sword saint’s class level + the sword saint’s Cha modifier) or become shaken for 1d4+1 rounds."

So, of course the question is, how can we get this to interact with other things to increase that shaken status to frightened?

Intimidate seems like the easiest route, but I'm not sure how it stacks with that ability. There's a line in the d20pfsrd under Intimidate that discusses the demoralize use of the skill:

"You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened."

That second sentence doesn't seem to appear in my actual rulebook, so I'm wondering if it is an errata that has been added, and if anyone can point me to the source? (I've seen some posts suggesting that that sentence was not in fact errata'd, so I want to be sure.)

The second sentence indeed seems to indicate that you can't demoralize (Intimidate) anyone from shaken to frightened, which at first glance seems to contradict with this section on fear (again from the srd):

"Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead."

But I guess we could reconcile both statements by considering the above statement as saying that fear effects *from sources other than demoralize* are cumulative.

So how do you play this?

If we go with the more restrictive ruling - that you can't by default Intimidate someone from shaken to frightened - then I guess we'd need to get stuff like Disheartening Display, then follow up an Iaijutsu Strike with some form of Dazzling Display to push shaken up a step to frightened.

Otherwise, the Signature Skill: Intimidate feat could get someone frightened with just a single Intimidate check... but that doesn't synergize with Iaijutsu Strike (which isn't Intimidate based).

Wave Strike:

You present a serene facade until you unsheathe your weapon and strike in one fluid motion.

Prerequisite: Weapon expertise class feature or Quick Draw, Bluff 1 rank.

Benefit: If on your first turn of combat you draw a melee weapon to attack an opponent within your reach, you can spend a swift action to make a Bluff check to feint against that opponent.

-------------

Weapon expertise is a class feature of the samurai, so this was clearly made with samurai in mind.

But another rather important class feature of the samurai is challenge - which also requires a swift action, meaning you can't challenge on the same turn as you Wave Strike.

And because Wave Strike specifies "your first turn of combat", you can't challenge *prior* (unless you do so outside of combat somehow).

I suppose you could Wave Strike and then challenge on the following turn, but it seems a bit silly.

What's really unfortunate is that this feat seems intended as a kind of Iaijutsu Strike - but it can't be combined with the sword saint's Iaijutsu Strike, due to the aforementioned conflict with swift actions, and the fact that Iaijutsu Strike can only be performed on the target of a challenge. So again, if you wanted to use both, you'd have to Wave Strike on your first turn, sheathe your sword, challenge, and then Iaijutsu Strike.

Regardless of all that, it's unclear to me how a samurai of any archetype would make good use of this feat. If you're feinting on your first turn of combat, the benefit will be that you get to deny the foe his Dex bonus to AC.

But if it's the first turn of combat, isn't there a chance that the foe will be flat-footed anyway? I mean, if you beat their initiative, they're flat-footed.

OK, so it's useful if you lost initiative. But denying Dex to AC seems like more of a rogue move. Apart from a potentially easier chance to hit, can you think of any other way a samurai could make use of Wave Strike, considering its limitations (first turn, swift action)?

Good points!

I'm glad you brought up the "5 feats in total" thing - I was going to ask if anyone had ever made a list of which feats Weapon Expertise *did* apply to.

I'd guess it would be -

Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Penetrating Strike
Greater Penetrating Strike

But then we could also include other feats that have the above as prerequisites. The only one I'm aware of currently is Deadly Stroke (requires Greater Weapon Focus), but are there any others?

Disruptive is an example of a feat I wouldn't ever consider Weapon Expertise applying to, because of the wording of Weapon Expertise (being weapon-specific). As for whether Weapon Mastery feats were written with a knowledge of the existence of the samurai's Weapon Expertise feature ... maybe they were, but I wouldn't be so sure. I'm sure we can come up with examples of new rules elements that interacted unexpectedly with previous ones, later leading devs to change how those elements were allowed to work in PFS play. I think the Hurtful feat is one example? Not too sure, as I've never done PFS myself.

But this gets into questions about intent, which of course goes beyond the written rules themselves (which we do agree about). The only other thing I can offer here is that, if my hypothetical "broad" interpretation of Weapon Expertise is viewed as taking too much from the fighter, the Ironbound Sword makes such an interpretation look positively timid!

Sure, but then fighter-only feats like Weapon Specialization were also meant to strengthen the fighter. Samurai Weapon Expertise goes against that spirit, too. One interpretation of that ability is that it's intended to allow a samurai to grab the weapon-related feats the fighter has access to. I'm not sure if UC came out prior to the Weapon Mastery feats, but it seems that it did, and had the order of publication been reversed I could see Weapon Expertise having been written slightly differently to allow easier access to those feats. That's just my interpretation, but because I know my GM, I think I could articulate that in a convincing way to her.

Regardless, I see your point of course. RAW, it can't be done.

Ahh, gotcha - those feats aren't just fighter-locked, they're "weapon training" locked. Bummer. I could likely convince my GM to allow it anyway given what I see as the likely "spirit" of Weapon Expertise's description, but rather not go that route. Thanks for the replies!

The Samurai's Weapon Expertise says that "his samurai levels stack with any fighter levels he possesses for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats that specifically select his chosen weapon, such as Weapon Specialization."

Does this mean that I can take a weapon-oriented feat such as Cut from the Air (a weapon mastery feat) as a samurai, or would I need to take the Martial Focus feat first?

Temperans, I just realized that I overlooked one of your earlier posts recommending magic items - some great picks there, thanks!

Speaking of stuff that may or may not combo with Iaijutsu Strike -

Order of the Warrior's lvl 15 ability Strike True (Ex.):

At 15th level, the order of the warrior samurai can use his years of training and focus to make the perfect strike. When he uses this ability, the samurai makes an attack as normal. If the attack hits, it is a critical threat. The samurai must roll to confirm the critical as normal. The attack deals the maximum amount of damage, although additional dice from weapon qualities, sneak attack, and additional dice from a critical hit are rolled normally. The damage from this attack ignores any damage reduction the target might have and also causes the target to become blinded, deafened, sickened, or staggered for 1d4 rounds (the samurai’s choice). Making this attack is a standard action. The samurai can use this ability once per day.

My assumption is that this can *not* be used with Iaijutsu Strike - that is, you can't both Iaijutsu Strike and Strike True in the same action, even when Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action at lvl 10. They're two different extraordinary abilities, and "makes an attack as normal" seems to suggest a regular attack.

What I'm less sure about is the Ronin's 15th-level ability, Chosen Destiny (also "Ex"):

At 15th level, the ronin is the master of his own destiny. Whenever the ronin makes a saving throw against a charm or compulsion effect, he may roll twice and take the better result. In addition, once per day, the ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. He must declare the use of this ability before the roll is made.

Since this is not described as any kind of action, it seems that you *could* use the "treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20" with the Iaijutsu Strike.

That makes intuitive sense, that you can't interrupt an action to start another - but is there a spot in the rules where this is pointed out? (My CRB is the second printing, so it may be missing some later additions, but I can't find where this would be on the SRD)

The "start/finish full-round action" standard action seems to be mostly intended for spellcasters, but I can't find anything that prohibits a spellcaster doing the following:

Round 1 - move action, standard action to begin casting full-round spell
Round 2 - move action, stand action to finish casting full-round spell

The closest I can find is this:

A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action.

However, this seems to describe the vast majority of situations, when you're completing your full-round action during the course of a single round. If this is meant to describe every full-round action, the "start/finish full round action" standard action wouldn't work, since it allows you to move more than a 5-foot step as part of beginning a full-round action.

In the case of Iaijutsu Strike, the sequence "move/standard, then move/standard" doesn't seem prohibited by RAW (that I can find). It doesn't seem particularly overpowered either, since you're still devoting two standard actions to a single attack, and at most getting your full move speed.

Flyby Attack does indeed look possible at lvl 10, when Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action! Just need to get a fly speed :)

Spring Attack doesn't look like it'd work, but I'm not really clear on that. Spring Attack is a full-round action; Iaijutsu Strike is a standard action. I don't think you can do both simultaneously.

Vital Strike seems... unclear. It comes down to precisely what kind of action Iaijutsu Strike is at level 10. Here's what it says:

At 10th level, a sword saint learns to focus faster and is able to make an iaijutsu strike as a standard action

And here's Vital Strike:

When you use the attack action...

A FAQ on the SRD for Vital Strike has the following:

Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?

No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action.

Iaijutsu Strike is called "a standard action".... but is it also an "attack action"? Here's the SRD defining "attack action":

Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don’t cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn’t otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can’t combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren’t attack actions, such as Cleave.

Iaijutsu Strike is listed as (Ex), an extraordinary ability, which is listed separately from "attack action" ... so I guess that settles that. It's not an attack action, therefore Vital Strike doesn't apply.

Yeah, that seems like the most reasonable interpretation. I can't find any place in the rules that nails it down, though - here is the bit from the SRD:

The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

Based on this text alone, the only necessary element that I can see is 2 standard actions in 2 consecutive rounds. It doesn't say anything about move actions - or even if move actions are allowed at all in either of those rounds (though it makes sense that they would be).

Another aspect to this involves maximizing the move/action economy, which is a notorious shortcoming of the Iaijutsu Strike.

In another post (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u056?Sell-me-on-Sword-Saint) user Kazaan expressed the possibility of using the "start full-round action" standard action to this effect. Here's the relevant part:

There's one interesting thing I've noted for Sword Saint. The full-round Iaijutsu Strike can be performed using the Start/Complete a Full-Round Action actions.

With Start/Complete a Full-Round Action, you spend a standard action in one round to "start", then another standard action in the next round to "complete" and the Full-Round Action takes place as part of the "complete" action. The Start/Finish actions explicitly exclude Full-Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Run actions, but Iaijutsu Strike is none of these (it's a Use Special Ability action). So you can move into a good position and issue your challenge in Round 1 and Start Full-Round Action, then in Round 2, you can move into melee range (if needed) and spend your Standard action to Complete and execute the Iaijutsu Strike against your designated target. It makes it a bit easier to execute.

I'm not sure precisely how this sequence would go, but let me give it a shot:

Round 1. See an enemy you want to challenge. Say the target is 40' away, and you've got a 20' speed. Move 20' closer (move action), then issue challenge (swift action), and Start Full-Round Action (standard action).

Round 2. Move 20' to be adjacent to enemy (move action) and Complete Full-Round Action (standard action) to execute Iaijutsu Strike.

Is this permissible? Can you really get 2 move actions and 2 standard actions out of 2 rounds in which you are doing a full-round action, as here?

If so, the next question is, what about other swift/immediate actions? Say the above is legit. In Round 2, can I use a swift action, or does the swift action challenge from the previous round count against it?

If all of this works, then you could use one of your move actions to sheathe your sword at some point, which would be useful in setting up Iaijutsu Strike...

I was thinking Half-orc for the race. The +2 Intimidate was what had me originally build to that style, and Darkvision seems handy. Swap Orc ferocity for Toothy, use the Naginata prior to Iaijutsu Strike, and you threaten a pretty large area if I understand the rules right.

That said a Half-orc can probably grab 1 or 2 of those traits you mention - I had completely missed Steel Skin, so that's a good catch!

But I'm not sure how far to go investing in Intimidate, since the DC to demoralize doesn't seem *too* difficult to beat. For the purposes of the Iaijutsu Strike/Cornugon Smash/Hurtful sequence, it's only crucial that we pass that DC: we don't need to beat it by 10 or 20 to make the foe frightened or panicked; it's enough to make them shaken so we get our second attack from Hurtful. Of course, the extra fear effects are fun. I was thinking of grabbing Intimidating Prowess to add Str to Intimidate checks; it's a stat I'd want to pump anyway.

Some numbers (I'm kind of new at this, so let me know if I've got any of this wrong) -

Going by the above, level 7 is key, since Cornugon Smash + Hurtful is what allows us to make 2 attacks at full BAB. (If we want that a level sooner, it occurs to me I could move PA to lvl 1 and Hurtful to lvl 2, at the cost of some other feat like Weapon Focus or Combat Reflexes.)

At lvl 7, a samurai (Order of the Warrior as baseline) with 18 STR, Ancestral Weapon trait, power attacking at -2, gets a +11 to hit on the Iaijutsu Strike.

Damage would be 4d6+1d8+15 (Iaijutsu Strike, STR, PA, challenge).

A hit allows for a free-action demoralize. At lvl 7, a Half-Orc with MWK Intimidate tool, +1 from Bloody-minded trait, and 13 Cha has a +16 to Intimidate, without any feats like Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus.

If that free Intimidate check works, we get to attack again at that first attack bonus thanks to Hurtful, and do the above damage again (minus the 4d6). If we're allowed to two-hand the katana after the Iaijutsu Strike, damage goes to 1d8+19.

That seems not bad, given at that level we'd otherwise get to full-attack with two attacks, one of which is at -5; this makes Iaijutsu Strike actually preferable to a regular full attack.

The Iaijutsu Strike also gets to force a Will save from every foe in 30' or be shaken, and at lvl 7 grants a +5 on the confirmation roll if it's a critical hit (+2 from Weapon Expertise, +1/2 lvl from Sword Saint's Brutal Slash).

We can improve these numbers - attack, Intimidate check, and demoralize malus - by considering Order of Vengeance, which at lvl 7 grants +2 attack vs challenge targets provided we've encountered their "kind" in the past 24 hours (going up to +3 at lvl 8), and grants 1/2 level on Intimidate (demoralize) checks. At lvl 8, it will begin granting increased penalties on demoralization, and get Critical Focus for free.

On the other hand, Order of the Warrior gives some dramatic, if perhaps less reliable, ways to help: the 2nd level ability grants a +4 to that Intimidate check as a free action (albeit twice a day at lvl 7), and the 8th lvl ability lets you burn resolve to roll an attack or skill 3 times (set it up with a standard action and you can do your triple-roll within a minute). Given that at lvl 8, you'll have 4 daily uses of resolve (plus whatever you've regained via defeating challenge targets), there's no reason not to set this up before every battle in which you think you'll Iaijutsu Strike, to increase your odds of a crit.

(Ronin order abilities look awesome, but don't synergize as well with this setup for Iaijutsu Strike; the 8th level ability could reroll to confirm a crit once per combat, but it's an immediate action, meaning we can't do it in the same turn that we use our swift-action attack from Hurtful.)

Order of Vengeance, then, gives solid bonuses for this sequence all through the early levels, whereas Order of the Warrior provides more defensive buffs and dramatic, if situational, options.

Either way, this is the best I can come up with for Iaijutsu Strike in a pure samurai build.

I know this isn't going to ever be the most optimal thing, but I've been planning a Sword Saint Samurai just to see, and here's what I've come up with - going straight Samurai, no multi-classing. Curious about your thoughts.

IMO there seem to be a couple of main routes here, both keying off Intimidate.

The first one goes for stuff like Dazzling Display, Dreadful Display, Violent Display, and eventually Deadly Stroke. It feels like a bit of a one-trick pony though, and comes online late-ish. It's also very much keyed to the one particular weapon you're using for the Iaijutsu Strike (since the "display" feats all require using that), which complicates things since if you already have that weapon drawn you can't easily re-sheathe it to Strike again.

The second option is more versatile, powerful, and I think safer.

1 ?
3 Power Attack
5 Signature Skill: Intimidate
6 Cornugon Smash
7 Hurtful
9 Furious Focus
11 Dreadful Carnage

The sequence here is:

Fight with naginata (or bow), spot a likely target, move up to it, then challenge.

Next round, Iaijutsu Strike with power attack (to allow Cornugon Smash). Hit triggers those d6s and also allows a free Intimidate. Beat the DC by 10+ and the target is frightened; he'll use his turn to run, possibly triggering AoO.

But before then, Hurtful kicks in, giving you a (swift) attack, also a Power Attack.

Drop him at lvl 11, and Dreadful Carnage scares everybody in 30', possibly frightening.

Now, Furious Focus is a prereq for Dreadful Carnage, but I'm wondering if it can actually be used on the Iaijutsu Strike. It requires you using two hands while power attacking.

If this is not possible on the Iaijutsu Strike itself, what about on the following hit from Hurtful?

And any other thoughts on the sequence here that I might be missing?

Ahh, ok, makes sense. Thanks both!

Say I'm looking at a Samurai build. Order of Vengeance grants Critical Focus as a bonus feat at lvl 8.

Say I stick with that order for a while, eventually taking a feat that is dependent on Critical Focus (Bleeding Critical, Staggering Critical, etc.). But after that point, I switch orders - say to Ronin.

I would lose "all of the benefits from [my] old order", so clearly I'd lose Critical Focus.

But would I also lose Bleeding Critical?

So sword saint is a very flavorful archetype. A lot of people don't like it because they prefer full-attacks, but personally I like it.

Yeah, it's definitely interesting. I think it's easy to look at the signature ability and notice the limitations. But the question shouldn't be "can I do this thing *all the time* in combat?" - it should be "how does this thing measure up against the things I'm trading for it?"

For the Sword Saint, you trade away the mount, mounted archery, banner, and greater banner. Of those, I'd say Greater Banner is probably the most powerful, but the mount could also be used to great effect in the right hands and in the right campaign. In the end, those features are all situational - and so are the Sword Saint's abilities. You probably wouldn't build a character around Iaijutsu strike, just like you wouldn't build a character around the samurai's mount feature. But it's a thematic way to throw some more dice at the bad guy and impose some conditions on the battlefield.

You were comparing DC 10+ rank in intimidate saying its too low, but implied that DC 10+ 1/2 lv+ Cha is fine. But think about it, at level 10 you have 10 ranks in intimidate and say 18 in Cha, the skill unlock DC would be 20 while the lv based DC would be 19. By level 20 its DC 30 vs DC 24. DC based on rank is slower but more consistent without having to rely on you having 30 Charisma.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I was happy with DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + Cha - especially with my character's low Charisma that's not a very high DC. I guess if I were going this route (Sword Saint / Violent Display / Disheartening Display) I'd want to bump up the CHA somehow to make Terrifying Iaijutsu more reliable.

With regard to Signature Skill, I think I'd be more inclined to take it if I wasn't investing in Dazzling Display / Violent Display / Disheartening Display. Both Signature Skill and Disheartening Display allow for an Intimidate-focused character to push enemies beyond shaken. Disheartening Display requires that you use Dazzling Display to do so. That'll eat a full-round action (a standard action if you're Order of the Cockatrice - but honestly, eating a standard seems pretty close to eating a full) or an immediate action via Violent Display, provided you crit. Because it's a dazzling display, it will target all within 30'. Beat the Intimidate DC, and they're pushed into frightened.

Signature Skill requires that you not only make the Intimidate check, but that you beat the DC by 10 or more. On top of that higher bar, it also lets the targets make a Will save. You can target multiple foes with it, but to do so you'd need to use Dazzling Display anyway (at which point, why not go Disheartening Display, since it's easier to pull off and doesn't allow a save).

Or, if you feel like waiting a while for AoE stuff, you could go with Dreadful Carnage instead to pair it with Signature Skill.

Something like the following, maybe:

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Power Attack
5 Signature Skill (Intimidate)
6 Cornugon Smash
7 Hurtful
9 Furious Focus
11 Dreadful Carnage

In this build, you don't get to try the schtick of making an entire room run away from you until lvl 11, but you're not relying on crits for the immediate-action Dazzling Display either.

A Sword Saint in this setup would have some incentive to fight a weak enemy first, rather than walking up to the biggest threat immediately. You'd want to drop one of the weaklings, get your free-action 30' Intimidate via Dreadful Carnage, and hope to beat the DC by 10 or more. Enemies get to try a DC 21 Will save to avoid fleeing, but even if they succeed they're still shaken. After dropping one foe and shaking the room, approach the toughest guy and use one of your 4 challenges for the day with Iaijutsu Strike.

Before that point, Cornugon Smash + Signature Skill means we can get individuals running one at a time as early as lvl 6. Hurtful gives an extra attack; the "within your reach" requirement gives us incentive to us the naginata for the beginning of the fight: once we get to lvl 11, the reach weapon will give us increased chances of being able to attack one of the enemies we've just demoralized with Dreadful Carnage.

Alternatively, Hurtful might just be icing, and if we wanted to build to take advantage of crits we could swap it with Weapon Focus for:

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Power Attack
5 Signature Skill (Intimidate)
6 Cornugon Smash
7 Weapon Focus
9 Furious Focus
11 Dreadful Carnage
12 Dazzling Display
13 Violent Display
15 Critical Focus
17
18
19

So by lvl 13 we can get a chance to intimidate a room full of bad guys not only by dropping one enemy, but any time we crit.

I think I prefer this progression actually, since the earlier levels feel like they'll give some more solid bonuses in the form of Power Attack and Cornugon Smash, plus some utility via Signature Skill, and Dreadful Carnage seems just so fitting (especially for my half-orc concept). Getting Violent Display seems almost a requirement for an Intimidate build using the 18-20/x2 katanas, but it's probably going to be more useful later in a character's career, when you can get a keen weapon.

For the Sword Saint, it occurs to me also that there's nothing preventing you from using your challenge to Iaijutsu Strike and hopefully drop some low-level enemy early on, trigger Dreadful Carnage, and debuffing the whole room while also exposing yourself to less danger given the AC penalty you take.

The last 3 feats might be stuff like Hurtful, Iron Will, Staggering Critical.... I think(?) Critical Versatility could be had by this character, but not entirely sure.

One remaining question is Order. I was originally thinking Order of the Warrior. Taking Order of the Cockatrice is attractive mostly for the free Dazzling Display at lvl 2, giving me room for one more feat. The challenge gives a little boost to damage, which is always nice. The +2 attack bonus vs demoralized targets synergizes beautifully with everything else. Steal Glory seems quite good, and almost worth getting Combat Reflexes into the build, though the Order of the Warrior's 8th-level ability is more versatile and powerful (plus it gives you something else to do with your resolve). The Cockatrice's 15th-level order ability is pretty underwhelming for a character with a +1 Cha mod.

So it's tempting to "dip" Cockatrice for a while and then go Ronin, which has some nice abilities ... but I guess as soon as I switched to the Ronin order I'd lose Cockatrice's Dazzling Display? And if I no longer have Dazzling Display, does that mean I wouldn't be able to use other perks like Violent Display I had picked up afterward?

If not, I don't think it's worth it to go Cockatrice, given the lackluster high-level order abilities. Warrior or Ronin seem like the safer all-round bets, though they don't synergize as well as Cockatrice does for the first few levels...

Thoughts?

As for the two build paths. Honestly if you aren't starting at high level you could keep both options open and see how playing goes first. If you see that you need more damage you can choose to go the Power Attack build, else you could stay the course. You might even think of another path after talking with the other players and the story direction.

Indeed! As you can tell I do really enjoy thinking about the possibilities, but it's good to remember to be flexible. :)

Lots of great points here, thanks everyone.

Looking at Signature Skill, I'm hesitant about the Will save (DC 10 + ranks in Intimidate). I don't have much experience at anything above low-level play, so I'm not quite sure how this scales. If I take it at lvl 5, say, that's a DC 15 save, which doesn't seem too tough to beat. Of course it gets better at higher levels, but so do the enemies' saves.

Speaking of saves, I've been looking at the Sword Saint archetype as an alternate way to get at some of my goals, but I'd appreciate some feedback.

Level 5 Terrifying Iaijutsu can bestow an AoE "shaken" effect (on "all foes within 30 feet", which is slightly more generous than Dazzling Display or Dreadful Carnage's "foes who can see you"), and it doesn't require a separate action - but the downside is that it gives foes a Will save keyed off CHA rather than Intimidate (DC 10 + 1/2 level + CHA mod), and it requires that I hit with an iaijutsu strike, which is a bit finicky to pull off (full or standard action), I can only do so many times per day (challenge targets), and leaves me with -4 AC to boot (-2 at lvl 10). *If* it succeeds, it could be a good way to establish Shaken early, then use Disheartening Display to push those Shaken enemies to Frightened or worse.

The things you give up for Sword Saint (mount, banner) aren't essential to my character concept, but the things you *get* seem difficult to use well. One synergy I see is the lvl 3 Brutal Slash (if you threaten a crit with iaijutsu strike, add 1/2 lvl to confirm) - this could be paired with Violent Display (crit to make Dazzling Display as an immediate action), which, together with Disheartening Display (successful Dazzling Display on an already shaken foe pushes them into the next fear tier) could theoretically get a room full of enemies running ... but there are a lot of "ifs" in that sequence:

1. challenge enemy (katana sheathed), move up to them
2. iaijutsu strike
3. hit to trigger Terrifying Iaijutsu
4. hope a bunch of enemies fail the Will Save (at lvl 7 this would be a DC 14)
5. hope I threaten a crit
6. hope I confirm the crit (Brutal Slash helps)
7. make immediate action Dazzling Display (via Violent Display) on those shaken enemies
8. if the display succeeds, Disheartening Display kicks in and they become Frightened. [Alternatively, I take Signature Skill instead of Disheartening Display and hope that the check beats the DC by at least 10 - if so, it doesn't matter if targets passed their Will save in step 4; they are frightened for 1 round and shaken for at least 1 thereafter.]

Assuming I have this right, it seems like a cool (albeit risky) move, and I could start using it as early as lvl 7 (at which point I'll have 3 daily challenges, not too bad). I can imagine using a naginata (or just a secondary katana) early in a combat against lesser enemies, so my main weapon remains sheathed until I'm ready to iaijutsu strike a challenged foe.

And some of those "ifs" can be resolved with the aid of the Order of the Warrior abilities.

At lvl 7, I'll have DR 2/- vs my target's attacks (goes to 3/- at lvl 8), somewhat compensating for the AC penalty.

Honor in All Things (2nd lvl) grants a +4 morale bonus on a skill check (free action), in case I want to ensure the Dazzling Display kicks off in step 7 above.

At lvl 8, Way of the Samurai (standard action) lets me roll an attack at some point in the following minute 3 times, giving me a better chance to threaten a crit. This costs 1 use of the 4 resolve uses I'd have at 8th lvl.

Weapon Expertise (3rd lvl) also gives a +2 to confirm crits.

Getting a keen katana or a scabbard of keen edges will make all of this more likely as well.

And at lvl 7, the iaijutsu strike is doing 4d6 additional damage; seems like a nice bonus, and would go some way toward triggering Dreadful Carnage later on.

So, *if* all of that seems worth building around, I could do something like the following:

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Weapon Focus (katana)
5 Dazzling Display
6 Violent Display (samurai bonus feat)
7 Disheartening Display

I could swap out Intimidating Prowess for something else (like Power Attack), but getting my STR mod to Intimidate seems like a necessity for ensuring not only that my demoralize/dazzles succeed, but that they extend for a decent duration.

After lvl 7, there's a few different options. I could keep climbing the Dazzling Display tree toward Deadly Stroke, or I could go for Dreadful Carnage.

9 Shatter Defenses
11 Greater Weapon Focus (katana)
12 Deadly Stroke (samurai bonus feat)

or

9 Power Attack
11 Furious Focus
12 Dreadful Carnage (samurai bonus feat)

Here I'm torn. Power Attack seems like a player favorite, and it would open me up to Cornugon Smash and Hurtful later on. On the other hand, lvl 9 seems a bit late to get Power Attack. It also feels like taking the build in a bit of a different direction (and it slightly bugs me that I'd be getting Dreadful Carnage one level later than I could). Dreadful Carnage seems awesome, but if I already have Violent Display I can be handing out AoE shaken statuses via crits - granted, crits are not a guarantee, but I'm just not sure if yet another way to achieve shaken status is the best option.

Shatter Defenses--Deadly Stroke gives some different and interesting options. Shatter Defenses is still unclear to me (I think I just need to check the Bestiary and get a sense of how much flat-footed AC is going to matter), but I know it doesn't help *everybody* in the party: the flat-footed benefit only applies to attacks made by me. The real prize seems to be Deadly Stroke, but for it to trigger I'm relying on crits (Violent Display) or taking a full-round action to Dazzling Display. Deadly Stroke seems best paired with ways to frequently get your targets shaken - via Cornugon Smash or Dreadful Carnage, say.

I could get all of those things by level 20, of course, but I'm not sure of the best order here - or if, say, Deadly Stroke is going to feel weak at lvl 18 or whatever.

I'm working on a Half-Orc Samurai who will focus on Intimidate for a family game and was surprised to see that there are several different directions for making an intimidating character. Not looking for super optimization, but some fun options - and I'm curious how the feats work out in practice. Here are the character's stats at lvl 1:

STR 18
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 12

I plotted out a couple of different feat progressions:

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Weapon Focus (katana)
5 Dazzling Display
6 Shatter Defenses (Samurai bonus feat)
7 Power Attack
9 Furious Focus
11 Dreadful Carnage

This gets me Shatter Defenses and Dreadful Carnage as soon as those become available. Shatter Defenses seems like the best way to make use of Intimidate, and Dreadful Carnage seems thematic and awesome.

But *is* Shatter Defenses that good? The wording seems to say that anyone I've successfully demoralized (or who is otherwise frightened or panicked) is flat-footed to my attacks until the end of my next turn after I hit them. But what if, after the end of my next turn, there are still enemies who are demoralized? Does Shatter Defenses still apply to them, and once I hit them they're flat-footed until the end of my *subsequent* turn as well?

The picture in my head is that, at lvl 6 with the above setup, I spend a full round on Dazzling Display at the start of combat, make a bunch of enemies shaken, and then go to town on them with Shatter Defenses, hoping that I exceeded the DC by enough to make the Shaken effect last.

One problem with the above is that Dreadful Carnage seems to supersede Dazzling Display. (Dazzling Display requires that I burn a full-round action to demoralize everyone in 30'; Dreadful Carnage only requires that I drop a foe. Granted, that's likely to happen later in the battle, but I don't see myself doing Dazzling Display once I can do Dreadful Carnage; they seem somewhat redundant.)

So is there a way to improve the action economy? *Kind* of, but I'm not sure if it is actually an improvement: Cornugon Smash.

Cornugon Smash only requires Power Attack and 6 ranks of Intimidate. At that point I'll have a second attack, so I could hit with the first, demoralize the foe, and hit with the second. Action economy works better than Dazzling Display - except that Cornugon Smash only works on a single target, and it requires that I hit (while power attacking).

Let's see how I would fit Cornugon Smash in here. I want to keep Dreadful Carnage roughly where it is:

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
6 Cornugon Smash (Samurai bonus feat)
7 ?
9 ?
11 Dreadful Carnage

Furious Focus is a prereq for Dreadful Carnage, and I figure it's good to fit it in soon (so Cornugon Smash has a better chance of hitting).

At lvl 7 or 9, I was wondering about the feat Hurtful. It looks like the reverse of Cornugon Smash: instead of getting a free Intimidate on a successful hit, you get a free (swift) hit on a successful Intimidate.

However, the wording of the feat - "When you successfully demoralize an opponent within your melee reach with an Intimidate check" - has me wondering if you can just loop Hurtful and Cornugon Smash back to back. In other words, can you do the following:

-power attack, hit, use a free action to demoralize (Cornugon Smash)
-if demoralize is successful, make a single attack as a swift action (Hurtful)

within a single round? Or does Hurtful require that I make a standard-action Intimidate check?

Regardless of that, the Cornugon Smash route gives *more* chances to attempt Intimidate against individual targets doing stuff that I'd do anyway (i.e., hit them), but I don't benefit from the potential "AoE burst" Intimidate of Dazzling Display, and don't get the benefit of Shatter Defenses (unless I grab Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses later on in the build).

After level 11, I figured I'd get into the critical feats, to make use of the katana's good crit range, something like the following:

12 Improved Critical (Samurai bonus feat)
13 Critical Focus
15 Bleeding Critical
17 Staggering Critical
18 Stunning Critical (Samurai bonus feat)
19 Critical Mastery

That said, if I really wanted to I could drop some of those crit feats to fit in Shatter Defenses as well as Cornugon Smash, Dreadful Carnage, and the rest of it...

But I'm most concerned with the play experience around levels 5-7. Is it better at that point to have Shatter Defenses, or Cornugon Smash? Which is more *fun*?

Great stuff everyone, thanks!

I took some of the advice here and actually discussed it with my wife before we finished up one of our 1-on-1 adventures (she plays and has a couple NPC sidekicks; I GM).

I think just mentioning the fact that I wanted to make combat more exciting got her thinking about ways to do just that, and since we were both on the same wavelength it was a really good time.

I stole some inspiration from the Hobbit movie and set the climactic battle in a more dramatic environment, on some ledges, with some rope bridges connecting various areas. She was able to control the flow of the fight that way, and we both had a lot of fun.

I guess just identifying that it's something you want to work on and then consciously trying to work on it is a major part of getting the results you want. Another life lesson from PF, heh!

I'll need to check out all those links posters have mentioned - again, thanks, and keep the ideas coming!

How do you do it?

I GM in a couple different campaigns, one a published adventure with a group of friends, another a homebrew campaign with just me and my wife.

In both, I often find combat dragging on as dice are rolled and initiative and other conditions are kept track of, hit points deducted... I dunno, it seems like the bookkeeping easily overwhelms the sense of excitement that is supposed to accompany combat.

I admit I'm not the most flashy presenter, and I do have a difficult time getting into the descriptions of actions, especially when I'm also trying to keep a handle on NPC tactics and abilities and all the numbers that that involves.

I mean, you look at the art in the PF books - PCs are doing crazy stunts, monsters are getting all pissed off - it looks like a blast! So how do you get that feeling in your games, beyond "he stabs you for 4 hp"?

I think I've read people recommending that Pathfinder might be better suited to something like E8, given that several class features occur at that point. Never tried it myself, though.

Edit: ... yeah... now where did I hear that...?

Thanks for the replies.

I think I'm going to just go with this made-up feat, since she doesn't love tweaking build points and stuff - that's more of a me thing. :)

I hadn't looked too much into Shielded Fighter - thanks for the link! - but I don't think it will appeal to her. The first granted ability is somewhat restricted, the 5th-level thing doesn't really let her bash more often - like many of the archetypes it doesn't get that interesting until much later on, and our characters typically don't get very high in level in the first place.

If you're concerned about being able to take AoOs in a full 15' radius around you, I don't think you can.

On the other hand, if you're just wanting to whirlwind everybody within 15 feet of you, that can be possible. Couple of methods.

First is what Wiggz suggested - make sure you have Lunge and a reach weapon, attack everybody 10'-15' from you, then take your 5' step so that any foes who were adjacent to you are now 10-15' away, and attack them.

The only problem I can see with that method is that sometimes you might not be in a good position to take a 5' step and attack everybody you want. If you're really surrounded by foes, for example, you will likely end up with some who are still adjacent to you and thus not attackable with your reach weapon.

The other method is to use the Dwarven Dorn Dergar, then Darting Viper. Attack everyone 10'-15' away at reach, then use your swift action to shorten the length of the chain to attack everyone adjacent to you. No 5' step needed. Or, depending on the battlefield, you could plan it out so you begin attacking everyone adjacent to you, lengthen the chain, attack (w/out Lunge), *then* take your 5' and put yourself in range to attack foes who were out of your reach previously.

The problem with this is that it takes at least one feat and maybe 2 (if you're not a Dwarf), and it's pretty situational.

My wife is playing a fighter who wants to go axe-and-board, and I suggested she think about the shield bash line of feats. She's really interested in them, but the problem is that they're all dependent upon two-weapon fighting, and her Dex is 12.

It's just the 2 of us playing (I'm GMing), so when she wondered if we could make up a feat to allow it, I thought about it. Here's what I've come up with:

Stonearm
You use brute strength rather than agility to bash foes with your shield.
Prerequisites: Str 15, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You are treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, but only when fighting with a shield in one hand. In addition, you may use your Strength instead of your Dexterity to qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, but these feats only apply when you fight with a shield in one hand.

I wonder if I should change that second sentence to allow all two-weapon fighting feats to be keyed to Str instead of Dex ... but it might not be necessary, since all of those (such as TW Rend, etc.) already have Imp. TWF etc. as prerequisites?

Anyway, what do you think of this? I'm not worried about this being overpowered, but I want to make sure there aren't any unforseen consequences out there, or other things I should consider.

Is there a Feat which reduces DEX penalties for different armor types, especially heavy armor?

Well, Armor Training will do that...

As for more skills, the favored class bonus can be put into a skill rank rather than an extra hp. Maybe that would be more advisable once he gets a few more levels under his belt.

Working up to Crossbow Mastery seems like a thing to do, but I can't recall how feat-intensive that is.

I like the concept a lot. :)

Awesome! Thanks for explaining all that to me, folks. I didn't picture this guy as a tripper when I started considering the weapon, but it would seem foolish not to add that in to his options if it doesn't take away too much from other things.

Huh, can't see how to edit my post, so sorry for the double.

I'm curious if combat maneuvers can be performed at reach with a weapon. Improved Trip is low-hanging fruit for my build, and I'm wondering if I can use the dorn dergar to trip someone from 10' away. If I CAN, that would sort of make Improved Trip partly moot, since I presume I wouldn't be provoking an AoO anyway unless the target of the maneuver has reach himself.

A Two-Weapon Warrior (fighter) archetype would bring those penalties down to the -2/-2 range, but of course would mean losing all the ranger stuff. Even without 2WW, though, those -4s might not be a big deal, given all the bonuses for favored enemies - plus there's an alternate race trait for Dwarves that gives them +1 to attack vs humanoids of the giant subtype instead of vs goblinoids.

Lots of good points here from everybody, thanks!

The bigger issue as I see it is this part:

teaching someone the system is a surmountable challenge, but it's much harder to do so with a class/race combination like this, that has so little synergy, they're actually detrimental to each other.

As a GM, you have a perfectly reasonable concern about being able to present a game as rules-heavy as Pathfinder in the best possible light with a minimal amount of headaches to a completely new player who has chosen a somewhat suboptimal PC. Dwarves get a lot of situational bonuses (+1 to hit against this, +4 AC vs that, +somethingorother save vs poisons, or is it spells?). Bards have a significant amount of crunch to worry about too, from spells and all the variables that go along with those to keeping track of the rounds per day of performances. Depending on the player, that amount of detail can be a lot of fun to work with, or it can lead to utter confusion and tedium. Make sure he knows what he's in for in that regard

Be up front about your concerns with the player. If you're worried his PC will be suboptimal compared to your group, show him how - but also remember that some players don't care about winning the DPR contests. This player has an interesting concept, and if he's willing to give it a shot despite some mechanical obstacles (which seem not so large anyway IMHO), green-light it - as long as he's ready to take some responsibility for learning, and as long as *you* are willing to walk this new player through the system.

Lunge allows you to attack foes further away in addition to foes closer to you.

Also, remember that you can take a 5' step during a full attack action, meaning during the Whirlwind Attack, increasing your attack area and bringing formerly adjacent foes into range. You don't need Darting Viper for that. In fact, I'm not sure you'd ever need it.

Huh. That's a really good point! And it makes room for more stuff, which is excellent. But also it means that one of the functions of the dorn dergar (that you can use it adjacent and/or at reach) is of less utility than I thought.

That still leaves open one of the other useful parts of the DD, though - that if you grab Dorn Dergar Master, you can wield a reach weapon in one hand, something you can't do with any other weapon that I know of except the whip. But I'm not sure how great that is.

Say I've got Whirlwind Attack and Dorn Dergar Master (plus TWF) in there somewhere. I'm wielding a DD in my main hand and a light weapon in the off hand. Without moving at all, I threaten enemies adjacent to me and 10' away (or out to 15' with Lunge). If I Whirlwind, I'm just using one weapon (I think...?), so the ability to threaten all those squares is kind of moot. If I'm full-attacking, I guess it's cool to be able to attack someone in my face with a light pick and someone over THERE with a big ol' chain. But I could probably also just move 5' while wielding the DD in TWO hands and get the same thing, *and* deal more damage with each hit, *and* apply Power Attack's bonus while avoiding the TWF penalty.

If changing the reach of the Dorn Dergar isn't useful, and wielding it in one hand isn't that useful, then I'm a little sad, since I may as well be wielding some other reach weapon in 2 hands - possibly one with a better crit range, multiplier, or damage dice.

So I'm hoping there *is* some great utility to the dorn dergar that I can make use of!

Nice!

Now, Lunge - it says that feat increases the *reach* of your melee attacks. Say you're attacking with a longsword. You use Lunge. Does this mean that while you're using Lunge, you can't attack foes who are adjacent to you? In other words, does Lunge just turn your weapon into a reach weapon? Or does Lunge allow you to attack adjacent foes *as well as* foes 5' beyond your current reach?

I'm guessing it's the former, which decreases the utility of Lunge somewhat. The plan with the dorn dergar would be to take Whirlwind Attack and then Darting Viper so you could hit *everyone*, 5' and 10' away. If I use Lunge with a dorn dergar used at reach, if I had Darting Viper, I'm guessing I'd be only able to hit foes 10' and 15' away, NOT 5' and 10' and 15' away.

Huh, if this is legal I may get to have some cake & eat it too (in that I really want to play around with TWF at least for a few levels):

1 Combat Expertise, TWF
2 Dodge
3 Mobility
4 - at level 4, retrain TWF to Spring Attack, then take Whirlwind Attack as the lvl 4 feat

The FAQ on the SRD suggests this can work. Whirlwind Attack at level 4, woohoo!

I've been convinced to go the Whirlwind route. Part of it is the difficulty of pulling off consistent Cleaves; part of it is that the Cleave feats all basically do similar kinds of things; part of it is simply that I've never played a character who had Whirlwind Attack.

That plan also leaves me some room to get some other tricks in, like...

5 Darting Viper
6 add back TWF if I miss it
7 Combat Reflexes or Lunge
8 Power Attack (to lead toward Dazing Assault perhaps)

Right, but those dwarf-only cleave feats let you bypass that restriction - Goblin Cleaver lets you cleave Small-sized foes even if they're not adjacent to each other; Orc Hewer lets you do the same vs Medium or smaller foes, etc.

The Dorn Dergar, with the right feats, can be used one handed and can also switch between reach and close. This means you can go Two Weapon Warrior, wield two Dorn Dergars, and with Spring Attack, Cleave Through, Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, and Giant Killer, not to mention cleave and great cleave, you are now a mean murderous machine. Add to that the weapon abilities Impact and Advancing, and now you can take several five foot steps during your turn (Put advancing on both Dorn Dergars and then it's a five foot step for each weapon). Plus, include in that the fact that both weapons can be reach or close during a round of combat, and man oh man you just are now able to hit anyone and everyone within fifteen feet.

You wanna be a real jerk? Combine that with Whirlwind.
There you go.
Oh, and surprisingly that's not a bad weapon or setup for a mobile fighter either. Go human with that wierd blood trait so he can take dwarf feats, or just go straight up dwarf.

I thought about that, but I don't know how the cleaving would work when wielding a dorn dergar in each hand - cleave is a standard action, so you wouldn't be able to use both (except maybe with the lvl 9 ability of a 2-weapon warrior), and the penalties for using both would only go down to -2/-2 at lvl 11 2-weapon warrior. Maybe I'm missing something there, though. It is definitely cool to picture flailing away with two of the things! But if I'm going to TWF with the dorn dergar, my thinking is it would be better to use one in the main hand (at reach) and keep a light off-hand weapon so you threaten every square within 10' - assuming you could position yourself to where that would be an advantage.

Probably the way to really optimize the DD is to use it 2-handed, though, since if you're grabbing Power Attack anyway you would get more mileage out of that feat.

I'm just not 100% sure that's how I want to do it.

I'm really torn between the Cleave route and the Whirlwind Attack route. Some help deciding would be great! Here's the problem(s):

-Both routes would require roughly the same feat investment (if I'm grabbing Dwarf-specific Cleave feats up to Orc Hewer at least)
-I don't want to necessarily be married to the dorn dergar - my original vision for this character was a dwarf wielding a heavy pick in one hand and a dwarven maulaxe in the other, so I'd like to take TWF at level 1 and use the dorn dergar to give me options rather than as the be-all, end-all of the build.

Pros for Cleave:
-Cleave requires Power Attack, which sets me up easily to take a combat maneuver feat like Improved Sunder/Overrun/Bull Rush. That gives me some more tactical options.
-Cleaving is a standard action (unlike Whirlwind's full-attack action), which allows me a move to get into position and still whale on multiple foes.
-Fewer 'wasted' feats climbing this tree (unlike Whirlwind's Combat Expertise, Mobility).
-Each feat taken allows me to do something cool (whereas most of the feats leading up to Whirlwind are passive)

Pros for Whirlwind:
-Potentially easier to use than the Cleave options, since each successive attack doesn't require that the last attack was successful.
-Dodge is a nice passive bonus to AC, which will be low since I'm not using a shield.
-Spring Attack could come in handy, though as a Dwarf it will be arguably less useful than for those with 30' speed.

In theory I could fit in both feat trees, but it's doubtful this guy will get much higher than 10th level, so I want to make sure any cool tricks come online fairly early.

tl;dr - which is better to work toward, dwarf-feat-style cleaving or Whirlwind Attack?

That looks pretty solid. I may downplay the TWF aspect to some extent to work in some of that. Maybe just TWF and Improved TWF will be enough - starting with at 16 Dex, Greater TWF seems really out of reach.

Of course, this build you've posted could be used with any reach weapon - the dorn dergar doesn't bring anything special to the table that, say, a glaive doesn't. That's why I'm tempted to go with some of the options that allow me to make use of its special qualities. Of course, taking those feats would mean delaying Whirlwind Attack, if I go that route.

The primary benefit of Whirlwind Attack, I assume, is the fact that it allows you to apply conditions (like dazed) to many more targets than normal. In terms of sheer hit points, it's probably best to focus on making *one* bad guy completely dead, rather than spreading out damage to lots of them (right?). Of course, its other benefit is unarguable coolness. :)

Hmm, on closer inspection, Cleave Through might be pretty limited - you can take a 5' step after an initial attack hits, and attack another foe with your Cleave if they're now in range - but they have to 'meet all the other prerequisites' - which I'm assuming means the second foe would have to be adjacent to the first?

If I just take Lunge instead, that would probably be an easier way to get me more distance.

Yeah, I'm really liking it.

The Dorn Dergar Master feat is intriguing too, as I'm planning (or trying to plan) a sort of all-over-the-place Dwarven fighter. I want him to be able to TWF with a heavy pick and a dwarven maulaxe, but also be able to get some reach in, and maybe some combat maneuver stuff.

So if I'm getting TWF anyway, I could be swinging the dorn dergar in one hand and keep the maulaxe in the other, and one of my weapons works at reach, while the other can hit adjacent foes. Crazy!

Meanwhile, until then, I could get Power Attack and put together some interesting Cleave combos, potentially - especially when/if I get Cleaving Finish.

I think Whirlwind Attack is just too much to fit in, though. Cleaving Finish, Cleave, and Darting Viper will hopefully give me the cinematic coolness and effectiveness I'm looking for.

Something a little like this...

1 TWF, Power Attack
2 Cleave
3 Cleaving Finish
4 Weapon Focus (dorn dergar)
5 Darting Viper
6 Imp. TWF
7 Imp. Overrun/Bull Rush/Sunder (can't decide yet)
8 Weapon Spec. (dorn dergar)
9 ? Combat Reflexes?
10 ?
11 Cleave Through
12 Gr. TWF

etc. Still working it all out, obviously.

Thanks! I missed those feats, since I don't have DoG.

Looks nice on paper, kinda like the 3.5 spiked chain. d10 damage is fine, a 20/x2 crit is OK I suppose. The real draw is the fact that it can be used with or without reach. I had visions of taking this and working up to Whirlwind Attack to smack everyone within 10'.

Problem is, it's a move action to adjust the length. That's not a big deal at low levels before you get iterative attacks, but I'd guess that at higher levels it becomes annoying. In other words, no smacking everyone within range unless they're all exactly 10' or exactly 5' from you.

So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't? I mean, if a foe moves adjacent to you and you're wielding a glaive, you can always (usually) just take a 5' step and continue attacking at reach. You can even do that and go ahead and full attack if you get iteratives. Taking a move action to adjust the chain length of the dorn dergar would be a waste - you may as well 5' step just like the glaive wielder, and then what's the difference?

I keep looking at this and wondering if it's better to just go straight Fighter.

The real draw for the archetype is the level 9 ability, Doublestrike. It's a standard action to attack once with each weapon.

Sounds nice, but as a standard action you'll probably only use this while you're moving during the round. Plus, since you're by definition not full attacking while you use this ability, you don't get the benefit of Defensive Flurry (AC bonuses) or Twin Blades (your substitute for Weapon Training, basically - bonuses to attack & damage). Seems like it's not especially worth it, but maybe I'm wrong?

Apart from taking the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype, are there any ways to reduce the penalties for TWFing with two 1-handed weapons?