|
Can someone check my build? For Pathfinder Society
Two Weapon Rogue
Level 1 Human
Rogue 1
STR 11/1
DEX 18/17 Adj 20
Con 10/0 +1 HP a level Human
INT 10/0
Wis 14/5
Cha 8/-2
Weapon Finesse & Two weapon Fighting at level 1 ( I wanted to wait till level 2 to pick up Rogue Finesse but I have no idea what I am walking into. Parenthically what should I get in its place if I decide to risk it?)
Skills
Acrobatics
Appraise
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Knowledge Local
Perception
Stealth
Sleight of Hand
Weapons: Short Swords & Daggers
Thanks in advance for the help.
John
|
Drop the 20 in dexterity, it's not worth it.
Personally, I wouldn't go into PFS with a 10 constitution character if someone paid me. That's the kind of thing that gets you one-shotted.
At first level you have 9hp and you die at -10, meaning one crit and your character is done for.
If you want to do a finesse build, I would lower your dexterity investment to a 16+2, saving you 7 points, as follows:
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
With weapon finesse and a set of masterwork short swords you're still pulling off a single attack at +5 or two attacks at +3/+3; moreover, you even hit for 1d6+1 as opposed to 1d6 when you can't manage to sneak attack (and it will frequently not be possible; I play a vivisectionist and sometimes I go entire fights without getting the chance to do so).
As for traits, I notice you haven't picked any. Did you want to go for the standard Reactionary, or maybe Armour Expert so that you can eventually wear a mithral breastplate? There are also options to grab other knowledge skills or get +1 to your weak saves.
Don't forget if you want to disable devices at first level you need thieves' tools or you take a massive penalty. That's 30gp of your budget right there. You should also be bringing splash weapons to the fight for the inevitable swarm encounter.
For feats, Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting are fine for this, but you may find yourself frustrated with Two-Weapon Fighting at this point in time because your hit won't be that high at the moment. Other options, if you want to delay that and go for a single weapon right now, include Improved Initiative, so that you frequently get to go first; Toughness, so that you don't have to worry nearly so much about living all the time; Iron Will or Great Fortitude are also great for padding your weak saves.
Remember also that even if you're dumping charisma, you have Diplomacy and Bluff as class skills. Take advantage of that and your 9 skills/level, because frequently, that +3 will be the highest Diplomacy at the table. If there's somebody higher, you can still aid another.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the more I look at this I'm convinced that you should save Two-Weapon Fighting for third level and grab something more practical at first. Grabbing Improved Initiative and Reactionary with an 18 dexterity will give you +10 to initiative at first level, meaning frequently going first; with a dagger in a spring-loaded wrist sheathe, you'll be able to pop one and throw it in the surprise round or in your first round of combat at a flat-footed opponent, and then draw your weapon for combat.
The chance to get a full attack at this low level that also provides sneak attack is *low*, and you should take a single sneak attack over two non-sneak attacks any day, especially because flanking will bump you up to +7 to hit. Once you get two masterwork weapons, and possibly pick up Weapon Focus with them at level 2 from your rogue talent, then you'll have a much easier time hitting with both of them at once; likewise, you might find a friendly wizard who will summon flanks for you.
For the purpose of weapons, pick one type and stick with it once you get Weapon Focus. If you go short swords, use two short swords. If you go daggers for ease of throwing, don't bother with anything bigger. +1 to hit is much better than +1 damage.
*Super-special hint* Learn to use Delay! It is your best friend for getting in sneak attacks. If you're moving before the other guy, and the other guy is going to set up a flank anyway, delay your turn until his and then flank. A high initiative score gives you the choice of when to move, and that is tactically very valuable.
|
|
Wow thank you so much. Sorry that my numbers were slightly off I have been reworking the numbers back and forth all night with pen & paper so I think they smudged, also I am on the back end of my day ready to go home and sleep.
I really have no idea what I am walking into with PFS and so I guess the consensus is that HP is good. Also I generally play Paladin or the like types and so my ideal of a glass cannon is probably not appropriate to someone in melee.
I know the consensus is against TWF rogue or really for anyone after the poor showing in the DPR olympics but honestly the aesthetics made me want to play it so much that I have to give it my best.
Let me just reiterate the ideas stated so that I can be sure I follow.
Drop dex to 18 after adjustment
Add con/HP
Pick up thieves tools (I forgot so mucho gracias)
Pick traits ( I had looked at them but yeah then I went back to doodling)
Hold off on TWF until level 2 then get Rogue Finesse? Less frustrating and no misallocated feat.
Improved Initiative > Toughness?
Plan out character till 12ish?
Again thank you so much Mergy & James.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I were to plan out a character like this to level 12, I would go with the following feats and talents:
1 Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
2 Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Dagger)
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions/Trap Spotter
5 Iron Will
6 Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick (Pressure Points/Wall Climber) <-- If you don't have Ultimate Combat, just pick another rogue trick you like
7 Toughness
8 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
9 Lunge
10 Rogue Talent: Crippling Strike/Skill Mastery
11 Improved Critical (Daggers)
12 Rogue Talent: Opportunist/Unwitting Ally
Also, look into the scout archetype from the APG. It allows you to get a sneak attack on a charge starting at level 4 (not TWF, but still a single sneak attack versus a nothing), and at level 8 you'll be able to sneak attack on any round where you move more than 10 feet. The price is giving up uncanny dodge, but that's why we're getting your initiative up so high.
If you have the Adventurer's Armoury or you have a friend who does, spring-loaded wrist sheathes with daggers inside are your best friend. Throw a dagger in the surprise round when everyone is flat-footed, and then swift action draw another. You may eventually want gloves of storing, but these are great for low levels.
|
|
I don't really know what PFS is other than some adventure path, so its not silly question for me.
PFS is Pathfinder Society. Which is an Organized Play organization, meaning you can go anywhere in the world where it's being done and use the same character.
It also means you may be playing with entirely different people and characters every time you play.
|
|
PFS is Pathfinder Society. Which is an Organized Play organization, meaning you can go anywhere in the world where it's being done and use the same character.It also means you may be playing with entirely different people and characters every time you play.
I see, then it would have been a silly question if I had known that :) Sounds pretty cool though.
With that in mind, I would suggest the OP to go for a rogue build that is less reliable on others helping him get sneak attacks.
Good suggestion. As you said, the scout is a great way to do this. I also never thought of combining it with Cleave, but that's smart tactics. Great Cleave would actually make for a good capstone, especially if you're also giving each of your targets 2 strength damage when you hit them.
|
|
Wow thank you everyone still trying to absorb. I need to sit down and crank out the actual work and stop playing with the numbers. I really just want to stick with a single class rogue. I know the numbers may indicate that X is greater than Y and reliability would be handy but I kinda want to have to work for it.
That being said, I had read the Scout Archtype before and disregarded it. Going back and reading it "Holy Metal Batman." Is the consensus that the charge ability is superior to uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge? It seems to be the case though I have never been the beneficiary of uncanny dodge. Is that something that I could wait to make a decision till 4th level?
I am going to go crank this out. I really appreciate everyone helping me with this. A lot of things I will use and if I do not use it trust me that when I am lying there bleeding out I will remember all the people that told me to do other than I did and will curse my stubborn streak.
I will update when I have a (semi)final build. Also I should make a different character just in case.
Replace "Rogue" on your character sheet with "Alchemist (Vivisectionist)".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unfortunately, neither Scout + Cleave nor Stand Still + Reach work.
Cleave requires a standard action to use, meaning that "Scout's Charge" can't be combined with it. Meanwhile, the "Skirmisher" ability specifies that it only applies to the first attack in a round. So neither one is going to let you Sneak Attack/Cleave multiple opponents.
Stand Still only applies to enemies "moving through your adjacent squares," not "threatened squares." So it doesn't do anything with a reach weapon. Even if it did, Lunge wouldn't work since it only applies until the end of your turn. It is very rare that an opponent will provoke an attack of opportunity by moving on your turn.
I do agree on Uncanny Dodge, though. While a regular Rogue is in great danger of being flanked (due in part to their own need for flanking), a Scout's "Skirmisher" ability lets them stay on the outer edge of combat, moving around to target weaker foes while still getting a good Sneak Attack in every round. It is particularly nice with Spring Attack. Unless you are fighting hordes of other Rogues or enemies who all invested in Outflank, you will probably get more use out of the Scout abilities than Uncanny Dodge.
|
|
Unfortunately, neither Scout + Cleave nor Stand Still + Reach work.
Cleave requires a standard action to use, meaning that "Scout's Charge" can't be combined with it. Meanwhile, the "Skirmisher" ability specifies that it only applies to the first attack in a round. So neither one is going to let you Sneak Attack/Cleave multiple opponents.
Stand Still only applies to enemies "moving through your adjacent squares," not "threatened squares." So it doesn't do anything with a reach weapon. Even if it did, Lunge wouldn't work since it only applies until the end of your turn. It is very rare that an opponent will provoke an attack of opportunity by moving on your turn.
I do agree on Uncanny Dodge, though. While a regular Rogue is in great danger of being flanked (due in part to their own need for flanking), a Scout's "Skirmisher" ability lets them stay on the outer edge of combat, moving around to target weaker foes while still getting a good Sneak Attack in every round. It is particularly nice with Spring Attack. Unless you are fighting hordes of other Rogues or enemies who all invested in Outflank, you will probably get more use out of the Scout abilities than Uncanny Dodge.
Good call. I didn't parse Cleave and skirmisher together, but you're correct, they don't work together.
|
|
Con isnt actually a huge deal in PFS, if you play well and use effective armor choices you can handle pretty much anything that comes your way with Con 10-12.
This right here is not correct.
You can never have enough hit points, and if you're not being knocked near negatives in some fights in PFS, your GM is softballing the encounters.
|
My standard advice for anyone making a Rogue.
#1 reason people end up with rogues that are not playable.
They build them like rogues. I know it sound stupid, but it is true. When you do a point buy for rogues make your point buy like your. A fighter then use the rogue class. If your going to use Ranger/Rogue type build you build as a ranger not a rogue.
#2 Do not dump Con below a 14. And get in melee combat. You are not as much a paper tiger as people make them out to be. As you gain levels AC means much less. Unless there focused on AC and that brings it's own problems. You are only 1 hp avg. lower then any full BAB class. For the avg. fighter with a 18Str and 16 Con 2HP a level lower.
#3 Fighters have the to hit. They need every feet, and ability they can get to ingress there damage.
Rogues have the damage, They need every feet, and ability they can get to ingress there to hit.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have hit negatives in around 1 in 3 end boss encounters (so pretty much once a level), and narrowly avoided bleeding out on 3 seperate occasions (-9 to -11 hp with 12 Con), but I fight as a front liner, if the OP actually plays as a rogue and not a fighter with sneak attack he should be fine on not dropping into negatives anywhere near as much.
Honestly Con is nice at level 1 to avoid the crit 1 shot, I like to think the risk of death makes my PCs life interesting (I have enough prestige for 2 raise dead spells right now and the associated restorations to remove the negative levels).
So you've narrowly avoided bleeding out three times with 12 con, and in your previous post you said that a 10 constitution would be okay?
*Huh?*
My lowest constitution characters are 12 constitution: one is a paladin (so d10 hit dice) and uses a reach weapon; the other is a dhampir (so 14 con to 12) and he took Toughness at first level to make it up.
Health. It's what makes you not die.
|
|
Thank you everyone for the advice. I guess you ask one question and get a lot of answers. I think I am going to try the Skirmisher build though I guess I have to live to level 4 first. I have to pick Traits and Skills but that can wait until after I take a nap. I am sure that given the numerous people and viewpoints that were shared everyone will ultimately be disappointed to some degree but the end product is much better with all of your help.
STR 14/5
Dex 16/10 (18 ADJ)
Con 14/5
INT 12/2
WIS 12/2
Cha 7/-4
1st level improved initiative & Weapon Finesse
2 Rogue Talent Weapon Focus Short Swords
3 Two weapon fighting
4 Rogue talent Resiliency
5 Iron Will
6 Rogue Talent Ninja Trick (Pressure points)
7 Toughness
8 Rogue Talent Combat trick (improved two weapon fighting)
9 Lunge
10 Rogue Talent Oppurtunist
11 Improved Critical (short Swords)
12 Rogue Talent Crippling strike
Strategy to get as much sneak attacks as possible. Attack with spring loaded wrist sheathes daggers from range if I cannot sneak up. Abuse Delay/initiative till front line fighters are positioned then go for the flank.
If I missed something I only got 3 hours sleep so it is understandable. Again thank you everyone for your help.
|
|
I like the build. The neat thing here is that you actually have quite the decent strength as well; that means carrying capacity shouldn't bring you down and you should be confident at achieving a light load. Grab a crowbar to break things open and work off that strength as well.
I notice you're talking about using daggers at range if you can't sneak up. You'll have until second level to decide, but there are equal arguments for going dual short swords or dual daggers. Short swords will on average do one more point of damage per hit, while daggers you can throw and conceal with sleight of hand. Pick the one you like and stick with it (although even if you go with short swords, daggers in wrist-sheathes are a great way to always be prepared).
I notice you've gone with Opportunist as your first advanced rogue talent; however you happen to be without Combat Reflexes, which means you will not always be able to take advantage of this talent. Meanwhile, Crippling Strike is just a great debuff you can continually stack on an enemy, sometimes until he is paralyzed. Each sneak attack is a stacking -1/-1 debuff to the enemy, and if you can get initiative off with two daggers in your hand, you can stack up to 8 strength damage on a single enemy, along with 4 dexterity damage from Pressure Points.
Actually, come to think of it, Quick-Draw might not be an awful idea.
Just out of curiosity...if going the daggers route vs. short swords would the benefit of going with the Knife Master archtype outweigh the loss of trapfinding & the ability to disable magic traps?
All in all fairly similar to my PFS rogue build; although I did struggle with taking up a feat slot for Weapon Finesse or simply taking it as a talent at 2nd level. If you plan to run the First Steps series to get you to 2nd level I think you can get away with taking TWF at 1st level; providing you keep your strength at 14.
|
|
First off a huge thank you to everyone for the literally overwhelming amount of help with this. I think I may be ok. I have not ever spent so much time on a character and am truly hoping that I do not get downed in one shot. I think I talked one of my friends who is a gamer into coming with me so I have someone to watch my back but we will see.
Secondly Whakapapa I think that is a great build. If I really new what I was going into I could consider that path. Since Pathfinder Society will probably be very fluid I want to have as much utility as I can and I feel that includes trapfinding. Honestly we will see. I spent a fair amount of my work time looking at that build. I have no idea what I am going into with this so feel that I need to be conservative.
Rogue 1 Human
STR 14/5
DEx 18(adjusted) 10
Con 14/5
Int 12/2
Wis 12/2
CHA 7/-4
Feats Improved Initiative + Weapon Finesse
Traits Reactionary + Resilient (Resilient is kinda meh so I will take suggestions nor could I find the one for +1will)
HP 11 (8+2con +1favored class)
Speed 30
AC 17 (3 Studded Leather 4 Dex) I hate it but can't think of a way to start with better.
Initiative +10 ( 4 Dex +4 Improved Initiative +2 Reactionary)
Fortitude +3
Reflex +6
Will +2
BAB +0
CMB +2
CMD 16
Skills
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Knowledge Local
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Equipment
Daggers (10) too many or not enough?
Short sword
Sap
Studded Leather
Backpack
Bedroll
Chalk
Flint&Steel
Grappling Hook
Lamp Common
Pouch Belt
Rope Hemp
Signal Whistle
Thieves Tools
2 Wrist Sheathe Spring Loaded
54.5 LB out of 58 Lb Light Load
I feel like I have no equipment but I have no horse and have no idea how tight this will be.
1st level improved initiative & Weapon Finesse
2 Rogue Talent Weapon Focus Short Swords
3 Two weapon fighting
4 Rogue talent Resiliency
5 Iron Will
6 Rogue Talent Ninja Trick (Pressure points)
7 Toughness
8 Rogue Talent Combat trick (improved two weapon fighting)
9 Combat Reflexes
10 Rogue Talent Oppurtunist This may go the other way trading for crippling strike since it stacks so well with pressure points.
11 Improved Critical (short Swords)
12 Rogue Talent Crippling strike
I really have to see how things work out. I am greatly indebted to everyone.
Wow...
My Rogue went Str-Cha-Dex.
He hits big with his sword and big with the laaaayyyydies.
Depends on what you want from PFS I suppose, but I could never force myself to play a low CHA rogue. My Rogues are all rogues.
Since daggers are your only ranged weapon 8-10 makes sense; but don't neglect picking up a bow at some point; a composite short bow will take advantage of your strength bonus just as the daggers will and you'll get better range & slightly better damage.
The low CHA does give me pause; hopefully a bard will show up at the table to take on the role of party face.
Finally taking a few ranks in Use Magic Device will allow you to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds; which can help save your hide if you're healer is napping!
|
|
I like it; I'm also happy to see that despite dumping charisma you're still putting skills into Bluff and Diplomacy. You'll never be the best at it, but you'll be able to hold your own right from level 1.
The trait for +1 will if you would prefer that to fortitude (they're both good, by the way) is Indomitable Faith. I would also stress looking into seeing if you can fit in Trap Spotter, just because it gives you extra chances to not be blown up. I suppose it depends on how the GMs at your PFS handle traps, however. Resiliency is also a great talent.
For your second level you should definitely start working on UMD. Get yourself a masterwork UMD tool and put points into it until you have a reasonable chance of curing yourself after a battle.
I don't know why you hate a 17 AC at first level, because that's pretty middle of the road. Since you're going to be going first, we can hope that you've taken out an opponent before anyone gets an attack in on you. Remember that if the enemy is flat-footed and no one is blocking you, you had might as well just throw a dagger rather than put yourself at risk in melee. If you play smart you will hopefully not get whacked too hard.
Instead of a lamp, bring a sunrod. It's a lot easier to use (basically a long-lasting flare), and it means you can keep your hands free if you find a way to secure it, or just throw it into a dark room. If you're feeling too heavy, switch your hemp rope for silk, and see if you can afford a potion of cure light wounds, because sometimes the only guy with healing ability goes unconscious, and then you're stuck.
10 daggers should be enough, by the way. Slowly turn them masterwork, or I suppose start with the short sword if you have decided on focusing on that weapon.
EDIT: With the weight you save buying silk rope instead of hemp, get a sling. It's a free 1d4 blunt ranged weapon, and the bullets cost 0.1gp for 10 of them. As a bonus, you can add your strength to the roll, so it will actually outdamage a shortbow, and it will outrange your daggers if you need to fight at range.
|
|
Always take a buckler...sometimes you just need more armor, and having a shield you may be able to enchant to null crits or increase armor is always a good thing!
Keep in mind that rogues are not proficient with shields. What I do is wait until I can afford a masterwork buckler, because then there's no AC penalty. A buckler will also apply a -1 to the attacks made with that arm, and if you attack with the arm you lose your shield bonus, so it is only something to consider for a two-weapon fighter, not mandatory equipage.
|
|
I'm just saying wait until you can afford the masterwork version, because without it you're taking a -1 to everything.
Not to mention that on TOP of that, Weapon Finesse states that you subtract your shield's AC penalty from your attack roll, so wearing a non-masterwork buckler will actually reduce this character's attack by 2. Not worth it, not for a single point of AC.
|
|
Thank you again to everyone for your help.
James, I have never really played a Rogue before so there are probably facets to it that I am not considering. I do not consider him a face, when i think about him I picture:
British Accent " Unkempt shoulder length hair frames a sallow faced man with pockmarked features and a surly expression set in stone on his face. Short in stature and long on attitude. His snaggly teeth are probably as jagged as his temper. Bearing a short sword on his hip we but carrying a plethora of Daggers hidden abut his person."
I wanted to be sneaky and scary by action and attitude not by dice rolls. The kind of guy that no one wants to turn their back on.
Hope that answers it.
Yes Buckler (masterwork) or Darkwood Shield when I can afford anything. I am slightly under 50 GP so cannot afford a potion of light wounds now.
Nickaxel, I had to look up gang up and remember thinking about it when I read the APG. Really depends at this point. I have to see how things advance and I expect things to be very fluid.
Yes I do not want to dump CHA even just one more point in it would help tremendously but I can't work the numbers anymore than I already have. I think it is imperfect but the best that I can do.
Ok rewrote character sheet on a fresh one.
Changed for Indomitable Faith (missed it cause it was under religion.) From resilient.
Added Sunrod took away Lamp
Added Sling and Ammo 10
Changed rope from Hemp to Silk
My wife knitted me a new dice bag for luck so hopefully that is all I need. Going to go do yard work and then reread my class, relevant skills from Core and combat/additional rules. I have not played in over six months and it won't hurt.
Again thank you everyone. Hopefully tomorrow late evening I will be able to announce success.
|
|
Actually, if you do have two scenarios under your belt, you probably have enough cash for
A) a masterwork dagger or shortsword
B) a darkwood heavy shield and masterwork chain shirt
That will give you an attack at +5 (1d6+2/19-20), +7 when flanking; you'll also be sporting a mean 20 AC.
Just keep the shield usually in your bag once you pick up TWF; it may come in handy every once in awhile, but for now it's definitely way more survivability than just having an empty hand.
|
|
I pretty much used everyone (involuntarily) as a flanking buddy. Acrobatics helped a lot. I caught 2 AoO but they did not stick. I may have to reevaluate that when they do.
I picked up the equipment reccomended. Helped a lot in the second Scenario.
Worse thing was my dice are out of shape (Confirmed Atheist who never met a dice superstition that I did not like.) I did not miss by a D4 or D6 I generally missed by D10. So two rolls seem much more attractive.