You are going to have to prove that a fingernail clipping is worth more than one gold. (It's a great thing to house-rule, though.)
Edit: added "clipping", noted house rule excellence
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You are going to have to prove that a fingernail clipping is worth more than one gold. (It's a great thing to house-rule, though.)
Edit: added "clipping", noted house rule excellence
Depends on what kind of part the designers come up with in their ruling.
If a certain focus is needed then Eschew Materials doesn't matter. Saying that you need the finger of a tarrasque in order to cast the spell will apply to everyone.
You could probably write it up more like Scrying than like a traditional material component, if you're going for that. That'd be unambiguous.
And to think I was worried about the abuses when one of the wizards in our Kingmaker AP picked up 'limited wish'. pondering the uses of simulacrum with regards to ruling a kingdom just opens up all kinds of interesting things for an enterprising/evil ruler. Kidnap key figures, replace them with simulacrums and BAM! you instantly control say...the underworld. or spy on other kingdoms. Or start conflicts within other countries. there are many copies....and so many many ways to abuse 'em!
And to think I was worried about the abuses when one of the wizards in our Kingmaker AP picked up 'limited wish'. pondering the uses of simulacrum with regards to ruling a kingdom just opens up all kinds of interesting things for an enterprising/evil ruler. Kidnap key figures, replace them with simulacrums and BAM! you instantly control say...the underworld. or spy on other kingdoms. Or start conflicts within other countries. there are many copies....and so many many ways to abuse 'em!
Very true. A friend of mine and I were discussing what we would do if we were a 20th level wizard in the real world. The end result generally always comes down to ruling the world, often behind the scenes. With no other spellcasters to oppose you, there is nothing anyone in the real world could actually do to stop you. It'd be a small miracle if they even knew who was pulling the strings behind the scenes.
I think that Mr. Quick actually hit on the real reason why simulacrum was invented in the first place. Concepts like that are thematically cool.
To be honest, I don't think that the crafting thing is a big deal because at level 17 a wizard can create a demiplane that is timeless, go in and craft all he likes and come back the same day with whatever he wants to have. Sure he will be older, but what does it matter? According to his friends, he just made an epic level sword or whatever in a matter of minutes.
And crafting tons of things is only useful if you can sell them. Many merchants don't like to pay full price for items, and have limited amount of Gold to purchase them with anyway. People seem to take a simplistic view on retail but as a pursuit it can be really difficult, especially if you don't know the trade. Your character may be able to do many things, even if he has extra hands, but eventually you will have to choose.
All they have to do is write it up like the Resurrection spell. It doesn't matter if a Cleric has Eschew Materials, he is still required to have a portion of the persons body whom he is going to resurrect.
Again, perfectly reasonable for a house ruling.
However.
There is a major difference in flavor and effect between Resurrection (in which you bring a soul back from the realms of the dead, and thus basically need to clone the original body) and Simulacrum (in which you create an illusion to imitate someone).
I want to emphasize, shallowsoul, that you're ideas are all very valid... insomuch as they apply to a home campaign. They just don't have any direct effect on the game as written.
Furthermore, the greatest (well, sort of) abuses of this spell have little to nothing to with your ability to make healbots/crafting monkeys/nearly-impossible-to-recognize servants that replace key figures in a government. It comes from making infinite wish (or infinite miracle, which is even more powerful) machines. And it's so, horridly easy to do at 11th level.
EDIT: I suppose I wasn't clear - at all - in making my point. My point is that simulacrum, like many spells, requires very careful adjucation on the part of the GM. They need to know what they want to do with it and need to be careful how they handle it. Do you want a simulacrum to not be able to craft? Fine. Do you want it to lose certain spell-likes? Probably okay (though I'd let 'em keep a weakened and/or illusory version, so demons could still try to summon demons... but it would be a shadow conjuration type effect instead, for example). Do what you'd like, but explain the changes before you implement them, and don't do so on the arbitrary notion that "I've got to limit the players!" Really, it's all about the balance of fun. Are all your players having fun? If so, why not let them go to town? Are you having fun? If not, you might want to either talk to them, make some heafty adjustments, or let your current game go (and have more fun in doing so). Really, it comes to the GM-player-player* dynamic, and fun, which is key.
With that in mind, most things are not really that big of a deal unless you've got jerk players (or jerk GMs). In which case you might want to find new people to hang out with.
* This is not a typo. I'm indicating the dynamic between the GM and the players and the players and themselves.
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Ok, so what level would a spell need to be that a) Imbues a construct/simaculum with free will and self awareness and b) frees constuct/simaculum from its master's control? I just have this image of such a spell, wizard come home and all his craft monkeys are aware they're illusions and aren't under his control, and are rather angry...
Just idly thinking. Not a 'screw the players' thing, but I'd wonder if anyone would research such a spell.
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All they have to do is write it up like the Resurrection spell. It doesn't matter if a Cleric has Eschew Materials, he is still required to have a portion of the persons body whom he is going to resurrect.Again, perfectly reasonable for a house ruling.
However.
There is a major difference in flavor and effect between Resurrection (in which you bring a soul back from the realms of the dead, and thus basically need to clone the original body) and Simulacrum (in which you create an illusion to imitate someone).
I want to emphasize, shallowsoul, that you're ideas are all very valid... insomuch as they apply to a home campaign. They just don't have any direct effect on the game as written.
Furthermore, the greatest (well, sort of) abuses of this spell have little to nothing to with your ability to make healbots/crafting monkeys/nearly-impossible-to-recognize servants that replace key figures in a government. It comes from making infinite wish (or infinite miracle, which is even more powerful) machines. And it's so, horridly easy to do at 11th level.
EDIT: I suppose I wasn't clear - at all - in making my point. My point is that simulacrum, like many spells, requires very careful adjucation on the part of the GM. They need to know what they want to do with it and need to be careful how they handle it. Do you want a simulacrum to not be able to craft? Fine. Do you want it to lose certain spell-likes? Probably okay (though I'd let 'em keep a weakened and/or illusory version, so demons could still try to summon demons... but it would be a shadow conjuration type effect instead, for example). Do what you'd like, but explain the changes before you implement them, and don't do so on the arbitrary notion that "I've got to...
I'm just telling you what James Jacobs said so once it's in play you can't slap the house rule brand on it. Designers make things RAW.
Simulacrum never gain experience. I translate that as they have no ability to learn. They know exactly what they knew when created and never anything more. Meaning if they get new information they have no ability to retain it. They could literally meet the same person every few seconds (a bit like that scene in 50 first dates when they're in the mental ward). IMO this makes the spell useful, but not overly powerful. You can still have craft monkeys assuming they knew how to make X when they were created. If you find a new formula/method they'll never be able to make it without constant instruction.
My 2C
I'm just telling you what James Jacobs said so once it's in play you can't slap the house rule brand on it. Designers make things RAW.
Yet many many people on this board claim that James Jacobs's opinions are no more binding than any house rule, since he is not among the official 'rulesboys'...
Simulacrum never gain experience. I translate that as they have no ability to learn. They know exactly what they knew when created and never anything more. Meaning if they get new information they have no ability to retain it. They could literally meet the same person every few seconds (a bit like that scene in 50 first dates when they're in the mental ward). IMO this makes the spell useful, but not overly powerful. You can still have craft monkeys assuming they knew how to make X when they were created. If you find a new formula/method they'll never be able to make it without constant instruction.
Careful with that one... not being able to retain new information would equal an inability fo follow a conversation, or even remember what Master asked to be done.
Simulacrum never gain experience. I translate that as they have no ability to learn. They know exactly what they knew when created and never anything more. Meaning if they get new information they have no ability to retain it. They could literally meet the same person every few seconds (a bit like that scene in 50 first dates when they're in the mental ward). IMO this makes the spell useful, but not overly powerful. You can still have craft monkeys assuming they knew how to make X when they were created. If you find a new formula/method they'll never be able to make it without constant instruction.Careful with that one... not being able to retain new information would equal an inability fo follow a conversation, or even remember what Master asked to be done.
Good point. Perhaps a caveat that they remember masters instructions, but only about 30 seconds of any other information.
Good point. Perhaps a caveat that they remember masters instructions, but only about 30 seconds of any other information.
Simulacrum never gain experience. I translate that as they have no ability to learn. They know exactly what they knew when created and never anything more. Meaning if they get new information they have no ability to retain it. They could literally meet the same person every few seconds (a bit like that scene in 50 first dates when they're in the mental ward). IMO this makes the spell useful, but not overly powerful. You can still have craft monkeys assuming they knew how to make X when they were created. If you find a new formula/method they'll never be able to make it without constant instruction.Careful with that one... not being able to retain new information would equal an inability fo follow a conversation, or even remember what Master asked to be done.
makes them sound like zombies.....
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How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?
I know what some people do with the spell. The go flipping through the books and build themselves a Sim from scratch. James Jacobs also said that this spell doesn't let anyone start flipping through the bestiaries and pick what they want.
Simula crum
School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 12 hours
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered
rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
Range 0 ft.
Effect one duplicate creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The
duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It
appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the
real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats,
skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels
exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check
when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is.
A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with
a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise
check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute
command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be
exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to
become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If
reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow
and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring
at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical
laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
It's going to have to be someone that the PC's know about which will be down to the DM to create, or a creature that is actually there.
This is another example of a DM controlled spell and doesn't need to be presented as a "check out these Simulacrum builds".
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Good point. Perhaps a caveat that they remember masters instructions, but only about 30 seconds of any other information.
"Hi there! My master made me so I could make items. I love my master he is good and smart and- SQUIRREL!"
"Hi there!"
I'm just telling you what James Jacobs said so once it's in play you can't slap the house rule brand on it. Designers make things RAW.Yet many many people on this board claim that James Jacobs's opinions are no more binding than any house rule, since he is not among the official 'rulesboys'...
There's also folks like myself (who are perhaps a bit too anal compulsive about this stuff). To us, isn't RAW until it's RAW. Release an errata if need be, but if a FAQ contradicts the RAW, then it'll be the RAW that is followed; because that's what's in our books, and that's what's on the SRD. Any feelings I had to the contrary of this were pretty much erased with Sean K. Reynolds deciding to put flurry of blows in a blender with icecream and spinach puffs and putting it on puree; and then suggesting this was the rules all along!
:P
How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?
Probably the same way he gives class levels he doesn't have, feats he doesn't have, skills he doesn't have, racial qualities he doesn't have, etc.
I'm just telling you what James Jacobs said so once it's in play you can't slap the house rule brand on it. Designers make things RAW.
I presume you are, of course referring to this post, or perhaps this post, however, I present you with this post in which James Jacobs himself refutes that premise... based off the simulacrum spell. He clearly explains that 3.X's tendency to require the developer to interpret as an arbiter was an unfortunate conceit.
The long and short: James is clearly giving his opinion, not canon in those posts. As James has (and others have) said on more than a few occasions, he's the canon authority for Golarion as printed/published by Paizo (to the point that he actually outweighs printed stuff), but in terms of absolute rules (for Pathfinder in general) or for your home games, he's got about as much weight as one GM talking to another.
I mean, here he's explaining that Simulacrum (much like Awaken, Reincarnate, Miracle, and Wish) require heavy GM adjucation, and here he explains that it's really open for interpretation. Here he espouses the idea that it's up to a GM to keep it from being abused, while here he suggests outright changing the mechanics of the spell from Core to make a good story.
If you want harder answers from him:
Simulacrum and Clone don't let you cheat death. (this, despite the fact that a published 3.5 adventure in a product that James helped write/create has that exact premise - that simulacrums are immortal)
Simulacrums need food, water, and the like to "survive" and are otherwise react as normal, living creatures. (despite the exact same adventure as above, this is again negated and ignored)
So, James isn't perfect. His word is Golarion canon, but, according to his own words, he's totally fine if you run it differently at home. I mean, that's pretty clear, and completely great. He's giving some guidance and suggestions, but pretty obviously isn't demanding that we play that way (or even suggesting that his suggestions are the best suggestions!).
Also, why, precisely, does the spell need to be someone you know? Nowhere in the spell description you posted is it indicated that a player needs to know someone to create a simulacrum of it.
EDIT: Okay, after reading it several times, I see your point. You're saying you can't create a simulacrum of something you don't know exists. This is true! ... but a PC with 1 (one!) rank in knowledge history knows about, say Tar Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, the guy literally the entire country of Ustalav never shuts up about who's powerful enough to smack around a goddess and kill her without breaking a sweat. And a half-power him would be a pretty sweet servant.
One 11th level wizard from Ustalav later, and the GM's got some work to do statting up a creature. You don't have to know the stats of something to make a simulacra of it. Again, referencing the links I noted above, creating a simulacra of a dead person is a great way to interrogate a dead person... according to James! So you can get lots of things you never knew about via this spell.
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Probably the same way he gives class levels he doesn't have, feats he doesn't have, skills he doesn't have, racial qualities he doesn't have, etc.How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?
No because you can't. The spell is based off of something that already exists.
I think the disconnect with the spell comes when people think they are building something new. If you know of a fighter in town that exists then you can create one of him, which is up to the DM if said fighter exists.
You can't just create anything or anyone you want without their being an original.
Probably the same way he gives class levels he doesn't have, feats he doesn't have, skills he doesn't have, racial qualities he doesn't have, etc.How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?
No because you can't. The spell is based off of something that already exists.
I think the disconnect with the spell comes when people think they are building something new. If you know of a fighter in town that exists then you can create one of him, which is up to the DM if said fighter exists.
You can't just create anything or anyone you want without their being an original.
Sir, you're attacking phantoms.
Ashiel isn't saying that you create a composite new creature. He is responding to your question "How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?" That wizard doesn't have any fighter feats or weapon or armor proficiencies. If he's an elf, he doesn't have a human's traits. If he's making a troll, it's unlikely that he's a troll himself.
Point being: the magic gives a super-realistic semblance of life to statues of ice, snow, and ruby dust. It allows make a super-life-like spell effect that behaves identically to the exact creature as if it were a lower-level version. It is not the wizard applying his limited knowledge to making a copy that kind of looks like the target a bit.
EDIT: Also, bonus points to Matthew Morris! Up is a phenomenal and excellent movie. (They've built one of the best love stories in eight minutes, I've seen in years in a movie. Daaaaaaaaaaaaang.)
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Probably the same way he gives class levels he doesn't have, feats he doesn't have, skills he doesn't have, racial qualities he doesn't have, etc.How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?
No because you can't. The spell is based off of something that already exists.
I think the disconnect with the spell comes when people think they are building something new. If you know of a fighter in town that exists then you can create one of him, which is up to the DM if said fighter exists.
You can't just create anything or anyone you want without their being an original.
Sir, you're attacking phantoms.
Ashiel isn't saying that you create a composite new creature. He is responding to your question "How would your Wizard, for example, be able to give it's creation certain feats that he himself don't even have?" That wizard doesn't have any fighter feats or weapon or armor proficiencies. If he's an elf, he doesn't have a human's traits. If he's making a troll, it's unlikely that he's a troll himself.
Point being: the magic gives a super-realistic semblance of life to statues of ice, snow, and ruby dust. It allows make a super-life-like spell effect that behaves identically to the exact creature as if it were a lower-level version. It is not the wizard applying his limited knowledge to making a copy that kind of looks like the target a bit.
EDIT: Also, bonus points to Matthew Morris! Up is a phenomenal and excellent movie. (They've built one of the best love stories in eight minutes, I've seen in years in a movie. Daaaaaaaaaaaaang.)
That is the point I am trying to make. What has been said proves even more that you need an original to actually exist.
I have had people actually cast the spell and hand me a half level character that they made from scratch. I asked when and where they saw the original because I haven't had the PC's come across this person. I even had someone try this and use their background as a way to bypass the restriction. They had it all planned from the beginning. They told me their father was a high level wizard who had all the crafting feats. I flat out said hell no.
Eschew materials (which is a feat open to wizards) ONLY counts for trivial cheap components, it does not allow you to ignore expensive or rare components like the diamond dust for stoneskin. It's a reasonable interpretation to include pieces of powerful creatures or characters in that category as well.If that was put into the rules sorcerers could still make them. They don't need materials.Yeah. Eschew Materials makes it a moot point. :P
Last I checked, I can ignore the material components requiring bodies or portions of bodies unless they have an expressed gp value greater than 1. In fact, sorcerers do this every time they cast spider climb.
That is the point I am trying to make. What has been said proves even more that you need an original to actually exist.
I'm confused. Was there someone suggesting otherwise? Simulacrum creates a copy of something. If a wizard makes a copy of a creature with item creation feats, then you get a creature with item creation feats. For example, if the party's druid has Craft Magical Arms & Armor, and you simulacrum the Druid, you now have a 1/2 level druid with Craft Magical Arms & Armor.
What are you talking about? ?__?
Last I checked, I can ignore the material components requiring bodies or portions of bodies unless they have an expressed gp value greater than 1.
Exactly. But... what is the cost of a toenail clipping? A random one would be worth nothing perhaps. But that of a Troll or the queen would be worth a lot more than one gold piece if Simulacrum needed them, precisely because the spell would need them.
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Eschew materials (which is a feat open to wizards) ONLY counts for trivial cheap components, it does not allow you to ignore expensive or rare components like the diamond dust for stoneskin. It's a reasonable interpretation to include pieces of powerful creatures or characters in that category as well.If that was put into the rules sorcerers could still make them. They don't need materials.Yeah. Eschew Materials makes it a moot point. :P
Last I checked, I can ignore the material components requiring bodies or portions of bodies unless they have an expressed gp value greater than 1. In fact, sorcerers do this every time they cast spider climb.
Point to me where it says this. I haven't seen a chart that list out body parts and their prices.
If you were a cleric and you had Resurrection you would still need a part of the person even if you had Eschew Materials.
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Ok, so what level would a spell need to be that a) Imbues a construct/simaculum with free will and self awareness and b) frees constuct/simaculum from its master's control? I just have this image of such a spell, wizard come home and all his craft monkeys are aware they're illusions and aren't under his control, and are rather angry...
Just idly thinking. Not a 'screw the players' thing, but I'd wonder if anyone would research such a spell.
GURPS had spells to create 'illusory' servants, and one story we had dealt with an illusion-craftsmage whose minions had gotten out of control in this fashion.
We also had a game where the duplicates created by a mirror of opposition happened to include a duplicate of a wizard who knew how such a mirror worked, and that if he ever succeeded in defeating his real world self, he would cease to exist, so he just teleported away and began his own life...
I love that sort of story, where the 'holodeck program' or 'golem' or whatever wakes up and decides that it doesn't want to be a disposable minion any longer.
3.X had spells like awaken undead and awaken construct that could do similar things, and there've been spells that allow summoned creatures to break their masters control, so it's definitely got precedent.
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Point to me where it says this. I haven't seen a chart that list out body parts and their prices.
If you were a cleric and you had Resurrection you would still need a part of the person even if you had Eschew Materials.
Well
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.So I suppose if a negligible cost is greater than one gp there might be a problem with eschew materials. But luckily even if negligible cost is all the money in the universe the spell component pouch has got you covered.
Not really. Again I am going to use the Resurrection spell. You are not assumed to have a piece of the person you need to cast the spell and it is not automatically in your spell component pouch.
All Eschew Materials does is negate spell components that are not listed in the spell. If it says you need the claw of a gold dragon then that is what you have to have even though there is no price for that item.
I removed some posts. If you don't like a thread, just click the hide link. Posting to tell everyone how wrong they are for having a thread is Not Helping.
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Ok, so what level would a spell need to be that a) Imbues a construct/simaculum with free will and self awareness and b) frees constuct/simaculum from its master's control? I just have this image of such a spell, wizard come home and all his craft monkeys are aware they're illusions and aren't under his control, and are rather angry...
Just idly thinking. Not a 'screw the players' thing, but I'd wonder if anyone would research such a spell.
Read about Florimel in the Harold Shea books by Spague De Camp. She is the inspiration for the simulacrum in D&D 8or at leas I thought so, De Camp was cited as one of the inspirations for the game in the AD&D GM guide).
She is a simularum that was made real in the third book of the series (The castle of iron).From JJ posting a simulacrum has a independent mind and self awareness. he (or she) simply can't disobey his creators commands. That is one of the reason why I would be extremely careful when giving orders to one of them if there are personality conflicts. He is not loyal, he is obliged to obey your orders, so he can try to pervert them like any other creature forced to obey you while retaining his personality.
It is an example made some time ago about summoning evil (or good) outsiders:
- you summon a good outsider to save some child in a burning orphanage, he will go and fly though the window, bring the children out as safely as possible, possibly casting some cure spell on them if he has free actions or using what powers he has to reduce heir fears
- you summon a demon to save the same children in the same orphanage, he get in smashing a wall, grab them roughly and enjoying the chance to scare them, if possible he will be very glad to get them a few nasty burn. nothing life threatening as it would be against his orders, but leaving a nice, permanent scar.
So making a simulacrum of a efreeti has most of the problems you will get with extorting wishes from a bound efreeti. Unless you limit yourself to the "normal" power of a wish there is a risk of him distorting it.
You can manage that better than with a bound efreeti as you can give him more restricted and complex orders, but there still be some risk of wish distortion.
Point to me where it says this. I haven't seen a chart that list out body parts and their prices.
If you were a cleric and you had Resurrection you would still need a part of the person even if you had Eschew Materials.
Well
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.So I suppose if a negligible cost is greater than one gp there might be a problem with eschew materials. But luckily even if negligible cost is all the money in the universe the spell component pouch has got you covered.Not really. Again I am going to use the Resurrection spell. You are not assumed to have a piece of the person you need to cast the spell and it is not automatically in your spell component pouch.
All Eschew Materials does is negate spell components that are not listed in the spell. If it says you need the claw of a gold dragon then that is what you have to have even though there is no price for that item.
Look, man, you're going about this the wrong way. You're insisting that a post by James - who in the post clearly states the opposite - is a canon law for how to make a simulacrum spell function.
Further, you're incorrect. Let's take the really, really common spell: Fireball. Look right there in the "components" list, it notes right next to the material components "bat guano", but clearly a sorcerer doesn't need a pouch since they get Eschew Materials even though the bat guano is called out in the spell description. It doesn't work the way you're claiming, currently.
IF, on the other hand, you are talking about your home games: then it does work that way, when you're in charge. And that's great! It's a fabulous house rule to make! That's why James says he does it that way (and clarifies it's in his own, personal games).
EDIT: additionally, you're comparing a divine spell to an arcane spell, and even otherwise identical spells don't function the same (Simple example - arcanists suffer spell-failure for armor check penalty, while divine caster's don't, but require their divine focus. None of which is evident in the spell description itself, but is discussed in basic magic rules and the spellcasting for each of the classes. But it's the same spell. Very different requirements and mechanics.)
Reference perversion of orders: sure. That's one (of many) different ways that GMs can work over their players. Solars' miracles, however, not so much, as miracle doesn't work that way.
(Also, ordering a simulacrum to love you, agree with you emotionally and mentally, and follow your orders to your intent to the best of their knowledge in good faith, and, most importantly, never pervert your orders, will fundamentally undermine any attempts on their part to do otherwise. It's imperfect, but it covers most everything you could run up against.)
Tricky part about that set of orders is "human nature", aka "familiarity breeds contempt". For the first while they will obey - adding in the impossible to control elements of ambition and emotion won't work, not in the long term.
Treat your mini-onions well, earn and keep their respect and reward their unbreakable loyalty will add a LOT of intangible value to them. Treat them like cannon fodder and your loyal guards may conveniently find ways to slack off. People are *real* creative when it comes to making busy...
As far as binding and/or creating an intelligent creature is concerned, you should always give him the order to follow Asimov's laws (adapted towards "me" instead of "a human being"). If you treat badly a bound creature, make her die before the end of the spell.
Concerning simulacrum, as Diego rossi said, there is plenty of campaigns where one of the protagonist is a simulacrum. Some with their master still alive, other with the master dead, and either way it is clear they have creative thoughts and free will (save the "must obey master's command" part).
As far as binding and/or creating an intelligent creature is concerned, you should always give him the order to follow Asimov's laws (adapted towards "me" instead of "a human being").
Eh, Assimov seemed pretty eager to point to the flaws in his own set of Laws of Robotics. They aren't foolproof. Nothing truly is. Which I think is Diego's point. Still, it's not a bad idea (per se), it's just not truly foolproof.
If you treat badly a bound creature, make her die before the end of the spell.
Gah! That's pretty dark, man!
Concerning simulacrum, as Diego rossi said, there is plenty of campaigns where one of the protagonist is a simulacrum. Some with their master still alive, other with the master dead, and either way it is clear they have creative thoughts and free will (save the "must obey master's command" part).
I don't know. Making a simulacrum an actual PC is a hard pill to swallow. I mean, they can't heal on their own, they're kind of forced to obey their master's commands, and they aren't real people. They're magical effects. One nice, solid Antimagic Field and/or Mage's Disjunction later, and *poof*, there goes the campaign in a puff of magic^.
I'm also not entirely sure that's what Diego was saying, though. I think he just mentioned that there was a book with a character whom he believed was the basis for the Simulacrum spell.
^ I was tempted to say "in a puff of logic", but I realized it's actually just magic.
I meant a NPC (BBEG even in some cases), not a PC by saying "protagonist".
For example a simulacrum of a dead archmage who took his master's place and plans to correct his flawed existence to become a "real" being by siphoning enough lives blah blah blah ...
However a simulacrum who traded his capabilities (aka levels) to get a "spark" of existence can make a nice PC story.
Gah! That's pretty dark, man!
It may be considered evil (depending on the victim), but that philosophical point is off topic :). However you'll know why it is recommended when you've made a sworn ennemy of a succubus (and have an imaginative GM).
As for Asimov's laws, if your GM wants to get back at you by twisting your words he will have to bypass those laws, and many won't bother, that is the point.
I was merely pointing out that a sim have creative thoughts and free will. Enabling them to craft and/or rule is another matter.
That does not apply to called outsiders.
I don't know. Making a simulacrum an actual PC is a hard pill to swallow. I mean, they can't heal on their own, they're kind of forced to obey their master's commands, and they aren't real people. They're magical effects. One nice, solid Antimagic Field and/or Mage's Disjunction later, and *poof*, there goes the campaign in a puff of magic^.
I wanted to point out that Simulacrum is an instantaneous spell, and thus dispel magic, disjunction, and antimagic field have no effect on them beyond turning off any of their spell effects. It doesn't destroy them or cause them to wink out; much in the same way that they do not destroy undead or golems.
Very true. A friend of mine and I were discussing what we would do if we were a 20th level wizard in the real world. The end result generally always comes down to ruling the world, often behind the scenes. With no other spellcasters to oppose you, there is nothing anyone in the real world could actually do to stop you. It'd be a small miracle if they even knew who was pulling the strings behind the scenes.
my players *already* built themselves a massive horde of zombies as their main army, then 'camped' them around a city/outpost they built to help control the roads between Fort Drelev and the village of Tazelford. they haven't started the war of the river kingdoms yet (the rushlight tournament is about to start), but when it does...watch out!
All that aside, spells like Simulacrum can be used in so many underhanded ways I can't even list them all...distractions, diplomatic incidents, spying, controlling organizations from within, using them to help coordinate armed forces and/or ruling a far flung empire (put simulacrums of yourself as advisors in every city you conquer and have them help to make sure your kingdom is run EXACTLY as you want it!).
to tell the truth, the idea of having simulacrums crafting magic items never even occured to me. doing so would seem a waste of the potential inherent to the results of the spell. Incidentally, I wonder if you could fleshwarp a simulacrum? that's got a few interesting permutations...
Very true. A friend of mine and I were discussing what we would do if we were a 20th level wizard in the real world. The end result generally always comes down to ruling the world, often behind the scenes. With no other spellcasters to oppose you, there is nothing anyone in the real world could actually do to stop you. It'd be a small miracle if they even knew who was pulling the strings behind the scenes.my players *already* built themselves a massive horde of zombies as their main army, then 'camped' them around a city/outpost they built to help control the roads between Fort Drelev and the village of Tazelford. they haven't started the war of the river kingdoms yet (the rushlight tournament is about to start), but when it does...watch out!
All that aside, spells like Simulacrum can be used in so many underhanded ways I can't even list them all...distractions, diplomatic incidents, spying, controlling organizations from within, using them to help coordinate armed forces and/or ruling a far flung empire (put simulacrums of yourself as advisors in every city you conquer and have them help to make sure your kingdom is run EXACTLY as you want it!).
to tell the truth, the idea of having simulacrums crafting magic items never even occured to me. doing so would seem a waste of the potential inherent to the results of the spell. Incidentally, I wonder if you could fleshwarp a simulacrum? that's got a few interesting permutations...
I'm not sure what flesh-warping is, but if it works on the original creature type, it should work on simulacrums as well. They are copies of the creature, but the copies can be affected by other things as well. A similacrum of a human can be turned to stone with flesh to stone for example.
I'm not sure what flesh-warping is, but if it works on the original creature type, it should work on simulacrums as well. They are copies of the creature, but the copies can be affected by other things as well. A similacrum of a human can be turned to stone with flesh to stone for example.
fleshwarping was described in 'inner sea magic'. essentially you dunk some poor schlub in a vat of chemicals, chant some magic at 'em and (assuming they survive) they come out of it stronger in one area and much weaker in two other areas. plus - you can give them mutations and/or special abilities and attacks. it'll work on any corporeal creature (including undead), but if the 'subject' dies during the procedure then it's a wash.
assuming your simulacrum survives the chem bath, I can't see why fleshwarping wouldn't work on 'em. now, as to why you'd even want to flesh warp a simulacrum in the first place, I can't answer. But this is something I can see at least one member of my player group wanting to try...because I have weird players who like doing bizarre things to my campaign.
I don't know. Making a simulacrum an actual PC is a hard pill to swallow. I mean, they can't heal on their own, they're kind of forced to obey their master's commands, and they aren't real people. They're magical effects. One nice, solid Antimagic Field and/or Mage's Disjunction later, and *poof*, there goes the campaign in a puff of magic^.I wanted to point out that Simulacrum is an instantaneous spell, and thus dispel magic, disjunction, and antimagic field have no effect on them beyond turning off any of their spell effects. It doesn't destroy them or cause them to wink out; much in the same way that they do not destroy undead or golems.
Surprisingly, you're correct about Mage's Disjunction. I hadn't really thought about that aspect of it (and had recalled erroneously, apparently, that it was permanent, not instantaneous). My bad on that.
However the simulacrum is a magical effect - specifically an illusion. Much like a magical sword isn't destroyed, but the magic is suppressed, an Antimagic Field, based on the wording, should suppress the illusion for the duration of the field. At which point we're strongly into GM-regulated territory. There is no RAW for what happens when an ice statue focus for which the simulacrum is based is destroyed (not a difficult task within an Antimagic Field - virtually any hard, sharp object repeatedly bashed against it will do, especially by a fighter of sixth level and up!).
One may argue that the illusion isn't annulled based off of the instantaneous duration - but a sword doesn't have a duration for its magic, nor does an incoporeal creature (and creating them would be an instantaneous effect). Yet incoporeal creatures wink out in an Antimagic Field, as do swords' magic. Simulacra aren't constructs, outsiders, or undead. True Seeing reveals their true form. As far as I can tell, they would continue to radiate "illusion magic" to detection spells. All this would indicate that an antimagic field shuts them down (based entirely on the concept of what an antimagic field does, I admit: there's no RAW one way or the other, though I'd say RAI - not RAW - is that it would do so).
Even if a GM would wish to use it, the character in question will never gain levels or heal damage (outside of a special ritual). Further, as mentioned before, they'd be entirely under the command of an NPC - every action can be dictated.
All told, it's still not a good idea. Unless the GM wishes to waive most of these issues. In which case, why use Simulacrum.
BUT: it's a moot point, as that's not the point of the post I was responding to, and I admit my error on the spells. :)
Also, fleshwarping should work (in theory, based off of the idea that simulacrums respond identically to creatures for most purposes), but then you have some major questions arise, such as if it works, is it the magic illusion image that's warped, the ice and snow, both, or neither (as in, does it add flesh to the simulacrum that's now warped)? If it does effect the snow/ice and/or illusion, fleshwarping just became much stranger.
I'm not sure what flesh-warping is, but if it works on the original creature type, it should work on simulacrums as well. They are copies of the creature, but the copies can be affected by other things as well. A similacrum of a human can be turned to stone with flesh to stone for example.fleshwarping was described in 'inner sea magic'. essentially you dunk some poor schlub in a vat of chemicals, chant some magic at 'em and (assuming they survive) they come out of it stronger in one area and much weaker in two other areas. plus - you can give them mutations and/or special abilities and attacks. it'll work on any corporeal creature (including undead), but if the 'subject' dies during the procedure then it's a wash.
assuming your simulacrum survives the chem bath, I can't see why fleshwarping wouldn't work on 'em. now, as to why you'd even want to flesh warp a simulacrum in the first place, I can't answer. But this is something I can see at least one member of my player group wanting to try...because I have weird players who like doing bizarre things to my campaign.
Weird things eh? Well, my younger brother played a kobold sorcerer who became a lich to oversee some stuff for a very, very long time. He wanted a family, so he decided to create one. He didn't make his family members with simulacrum spells, but instead set to creating entirely new people via arcane magic. I forget the actual method we ended up using, but today I would have suggested making them sentient constructs using the Intelligent Item rules. That would have been enough to give them everything he desired in a family. Longevity (undead lich + construct family), their own minds (fully functional Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma), their own bodies (fully functional Strength, Dexterity, if not Constitution), and free will (complete with Ego score).
Since Intelligent constructs could can class levels, he could even teach them sorcery or something, and they could advance themselves normally. We never went into it very far, since that game ended due to scheduling differences with some of the other players.
Weird things eh? Well, my younger brother played a kobold sorcerer who became a lich to oversee some stuff for a very, very long time. He wanted a family, so he decided to create one. He didn't make his family members with simulacrum spells, but instead set to creating entirely new people via arcane magic. I forget the actual method we ended up using, but today I would have suggested making them sentient constructs using the Intelligent Item rules. That would have been enough to give them everything he desired in a family. Longevity (undead lich + construct family), their own minds (fully functional Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma), their own bodies (fully functional Strength, Dexterity, if not Constitution), and free will (complete with Ego score).
Since Intelligent constructs could can class levels, he could even teach them sorcery or something, and they could advance...
that's...inventive! And very strange.
I can't entirely blame my players for weirdness tho. i've thrown many a GM for a loop with my tactics. like...my celestial bloodline sorcerer getting into an aerial dogfight with a green dragon (and winning!). taking down a horde of charging bugbears with poison toads. Catching a red dragon monologuing...and hitting him with a decanter of endless water on geyser mode....then there was the time when I zapped an elder blue dragon with feeblemind AND magic jar, and beat his spell resistance AND he flubbed both saving throws. Oh the joy I had that day with my brand new edgar suit!
sadly, I rarely get the chance to play anymore. I mostly run games for our group.
that's...inventive! And very strange.
I can't entirely blame my players for weirdness tho. i've thrown many a GM for a loop with my tactics. like...my celestial bloodline sorcerer getting into an aerial dogfight with a green dragon (and winning!). taking down a horde of charging bugbears with poison toads. Catching a red dragon monologuing...and hitting him with a decanter of endless water on geyser mode....then there was the time when I zapped an elder blue dragon with feeblemind AND magic jar, and beat his spell resistance AND he flubbed both saving throws. Oh the joy I had that day with my brand new edgar suit!
sadly, I rarely get the chance to play anymore. I mostly run games for our group.
Heh, tell me about it. I'm pretty much 24/7 GM around here too. I love to play, but nobody else wants to GM; though it does seem like a lot of my players request that I run a GM-PC along with them, so sometimes I do. Gives them someone in the party they can always interact with, I suppose. I guess they've grown accustomed to ability to not metagame or show favoritism (I attribute this quality to when I was a little kid who played checkers or chess against myself). I had one player speak very fondly of a tiefling malconvoker I ran during a long-running game of ours.
EDIT: Also, speaking of quirky spells like Simulacrum, Planar Binding is another one of those that's really powerful and borderline abusive (it would be abusive if Wish wasn't nerfed into the ground :P), but is fun for the GM as well. During the same game with the malconvoker I mentioned before, I had planned for her to bind a succubus minion. So when 3/5 of the players couldn't make the game (a pair of brothers who were going to be out that night, and another who had to take a family member somewhere that day) one of the days, I handed the stats of the succubus and the succubus' summoned minion over to the players; and ran a side-adventure where our usual PCs sat out, and they got to play as the Succubus and Vrock in an espionage mission against the Dark Brotherhood.
One of the players was my brother (the one with the kobold sorcerer) and the other was a guy I love like a brother (who had been playing a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian). Both of them had a blast and were excited to get to be the monsters for a game. They got to play around with stuff like at will greater teleport, shapeshifting, demonic brutishness (succubus made for a good controller/sneak, vrock was adequate muscle). The sorcerer player played the Vrock and felt like a badass, and the barbarian player played the succubus for a delightful change of pace. Next session, they probably spent 20 minutes talking about how awesome the previous session was to the guys who didn't make it (I didn't mind, as 20 extra minutes of setup was fine with me as a GM, and I did enjoy listening to them :P).
EDIT 2: Speaking again of weird stuff...
I know I've mentioned on this board an NPC I had once whose familiar was his wife. She had a permanent alter self based ring that kept her in humanoid (human) form. She was still his familiar, but she just appeared to be an above average Intelligence woman with beautiful features who had married the wizard. It wasn't until several sessions later that the effect got dispelled during a battle and she turned into a raven; causing the party to go "(O.o) wha!?".
Likewise, a similar ring is in use by an NPC in one of my campaigns. The Queen of this one nation has been infected with a curse that continues to deal ability score damage similar to a disease. Due to the nature of the curse, the cure requires casting remove curse and remove disease subsequently or it isn't removed. The queen has thus been secreted away in her royal chambers where only her Husband and their secret adviser can access her. Her secret adviser goes by the name "Whisper", and handles things off the record (such as hiring the adventurers to investigate leads concerning the queen's poisoning that the royal guard cannot investigate without alerting those responsible to being on to them). Whisper is also a lover to the Queen and occasionally the King as well. The thing that makes Whisper particularly strange is that she is actually a Drider who uses magic items to change her appearance and form.
Then I also have a character who has a pair of mothers. One of her mothers is a blacksmith. The other is a mage-pirate who took a liking to the the other and took what she wanted like pirates do. So the character was a bastard child of a pair of women, and her other mother (or "father") is out roaming the seas somewhere.
oh dear, don't get me started on planar binding. luckily for me the necromancer hasn't figure out yet the implications of her grabbing the Eye of Abbadon off Vordaki the lich. she grafted it to her head and has the ability to summon/bind daemons once a week. instead of wreaking all KINDS of havoc with that power, she's mostly stuck to just using the scrying power to spy on neighboring kingdoms.
incidentally, specialist wizards get frighteningly nasty past level 10. the party necromancer has maxed out feats to let her summon/control/buff her massive horde of undead. But lets be honest here - any specialist wizard is going to be fairly tough once they hit double digits.
oh dear, don't get me started on planar binding. luckily for me the necromancer hasn't figure out yet the implications of her grabbing the Eye of Abbadon off Vordaki the lich. she grafted it to her head and has the ability to summon/bind daemons once a week. instead of wreaking all KINDS of havoc with that power, she's mostly stuck to just using the scrying power to spy on neighboring kingdoms.
incidentally, specialist wizards get frighteningly nasty past level 10. the party necromancer has maxed out feats to let her summon/control/buff her massive horde of undead. But lets be honest here - any specialist wizard is going to be fairly tough once they hit double digits.
So very, very true. It's a whole different ballgame past 10th level. I think that's why so many people have a hard time going from low to high levels. They kind of just expect the numbers to get bigger, but the game expands and opens up. Waaaaay up. My players had a blast trying to bring down a wizard guild. God did that make for a million XP worth of awesome encounters. The party went from trying to topple the guild, to hiding out from the guild (after a number of guildmages found them via scrying and teleported a bunch of mages who began spamming fireball spells at the party's location). Good thing the party abjurer won Initiative and readied resilient sphere to bubble them when the balls were incoming. :P
Private sanctum became a favorite for the PCs, as it kept them from getting destroyed during their downtime, or in the middle of trouble. Middle of trouble was generally the worst case. So you're sitting there fighting a giant or something, and the next thing you know, somebody is floating above you throwing summoned monsters at you. He's not the giant's friend, but he's definitely not yours either!
By the time they got to where they wanted to attack the guild itself, the party had to wade through a ton of conjured or called demons, devils, elementals, simulacrums, a few traps, mage tricks, in-battle plane hopping, and so forth. They finally ended with them fighting a BBEG that was gated into by the elder mages using circle magic to boost their effective caster level to goofy proportions to summon some sort of demon overlord; which served as the final boss for the very long plot arch. They overcame him (barely), destroying what was left of the evil mage guild, and freed the city they ruled over.
On the subject of undead, has you player considered a mage-prime/cleric-alternate/mystic theurge by chance? Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge can hit 9th level arcane casting, 7th level divine casting, and can control 120 HD worth of undead (128 if you've got a +1 CL ioun stone). Not super useful at high levels, but more HD is always nice. :P