I am trying to build a gunslinger for a new game I am in. Starting LV-6, human. I want to do the two-weapon fighting with revolvers (the tech of the game is World War 1 era). I did take the Mysterious Stranger archetype for story reasons, and or GM did give us some sweet starting cash to come in with nice weapons.
The Pistols are named "Smites the Wicked" and "Punishes the Guilty."
Smites the Wicked has Holy.
Punishes the Guilty has Shocking Burst.
The story behind the guns is that the character stole the guns originally, she doesn't know why, she just did. Soon after, she starts seeing the world differently, and then takes up a V for Vendetta/Zorro/Robin Hood approach to things.
My biggest concern, as with most people building a gunslinger, is feat progression. What are some decent builds for a TWF Gunslinger? Right now, I have 5 feats to play with, unless i do a level 2 fighter, level 4 gunslinger, then it will be 7 feats to play with. Should I multi for the extra feats?
Starting to pull my hair out here!
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As the topic is pretty complex and has already been answered at numerous occasions, I suggest you searching the messageboards for "gunslinger", "builds", "optimization", and "TWF" with "pistols".
Basically, you want Rapid Reload (double-barelled pistol), TWF/ITWF, the feat to reload without provoking attacks of opportunity, weapon cords, a double-barelled weapon as your off-hand and one glove of storing, otherwise you can't full-attack each round.
I've tried sifting through all the gunslinger threads i could find, but I kept getting lost in the whole "are they overpowered" argument. In fact, I'm still sifting through them as I wait for replies to this thread.
I would heartily suggest against the Mysterious Stranger archetype. While it sounds fun, you can play The Man With No Name without it, and then regain the class feature that the Mysterious Stranger loses:
GUN TRAINING.
Seriously. Reread gun training. There is no class feature that's worth losing +Dex on the damage roll and less misfire problems. Do not take Mysterious Stranger. Take Pistolero, or even just stay a standard Gunslinger. Just don't do Mysterious Stranger unless you can find some fun reason that I can't.
Vanaran make excellent TWF gunslingers. It is very easy for them to reload.
Thanks for your help. Yeah, I had overlooked the Gun Training, thanks for the heads up.
The GM ended up letting me customize the mysterious stranger a bit. The tech of the guns in his setting has advanced beyond misfiring being a major issue, so he let me nix the Stranger's Fortune and keep Gun Training. It'll help against the Tommy Gun wielding Paladins.
If your set on using the revolvers I would say go archetype Pistolero and possibly dip fighter for the mentioned weapon training and the feats. Currently I'm in a shackles game with a goblin pistolero and he is wrecking fools.
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Take Pistolero not Mysterious Stranger.
As suggested above take 2 levels Alchemist in the Grenadier Archtype (so you get Precise bombs for free and poison stuff is lame) and make sure you take Vestigial arm for reloading. Having revolvers will definitely not make this AS big of a deal, but it still will help.
I recommend 2 Weapon Fighting, Rapid Reload (Pistols), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Clustered Shots. Obviously if you take 2 levels in Alchemist (the only way you will be able to fire BOTH pistols after reloading) you'd have to wait on Clustered Shots but it will be worth it IMO.
Does your GM know that with just your 2 weapons you have blown the Wealth By Level out of the water? I mean your 2 weapons alone are 34000 gold! That is over TWICE the suggested Wealth By Level, and leaves you ZERO for armor and saves...
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Take Pistolero not Mysterious Stranger.
As suggested above take 2 levels Alchemist in the Grenadier Archtype (so you get Precise bombs for free and poison stuff is lame) and make sure you take Vestigial arm for reloading. Having revolvers will definitely not make this AS big of a deal, but it still will help.
I recommend 2 Weapon Fighting, Rapid Reload (Pistols), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Clustered Shots. Obviously if you take 2 levels in Alchemist (the only way you will be able to fire BOTH pistols after reloading) you'd have to wait on Clustered Shots but it will be worth it IMO.
Does your GM know that with just your 2 weapons you have blown the Wealth By Level out of the water? I mean your 2 weapons alone are 34000 gold! That is over TWICE the suggested Wealth By Level, and leaves you ZERO for armor and saves...
Are you certain that he shouldn't go with vivisectionist? an extra 1d6 on a TWF full touch attack against a flat-footed opponent is always nice.
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See I struggled with that when I just helped my buddy make his character, and it will just be 1d6 IF he meets X requirements. I guess its more of a player choice, but I didn't think it would be worth it because what are the odds he is going to get a flat footed touch attack thats a full round action to where he can TWF with pistols that have a range of 20 ft? You'd have to get jumped by guys that were right next to you...and if thats the case they aren't even flat footed.
He may get 1d6 extra every so often, but having the bombs that deal 1d6+Int modifier can be a nice altternative if he gets a group of guys he wants to toss a grenade in.
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Can someone post the legal RAW way to TWF with guns without growing an extra arm? I've read it before, but I've also had trouble finding it. I want to Favorite the post so I can always refer to it. :)
From what I remember the technique just needed weapon cords, but I'm not sure if you can take a swift action in the middle of your full attack action. Also, I'm not sure if you can fire all the iteratives with your primary hand before recovering your weapon in your offhand and then firing all of those TWF/ITWF/GTWF iteratives.
I think it works like this (not 100% certain if this is RAW legal):
A) two pistols on weapon cords, primary hand weapon in hand and loaded, secondary hand weapon dangling from cord.
B) fire primary hand, reload with second hand.
C) repeat firing your primary hand for all iteratives.
D) drop primary hand gun as free action, and retrieve secondary gun as swift action.
E) fire secondary hand weapon, reloading with the now free primary hand.
F) repeat firing your secondary hand for all TWF/ITWF/GTWF iteratives.
G) You are done, and in the position to repeat the next round by making your current (secondary hand) the primary hand since it is now the one holding a gun.
EDIT: btw if you are doing this without misfire chance your damage is obscene. I originally had this plan with my gunslinger build but decided it would be (1), too powerful, and (2) other players and GMs would call cheese and try to stop the above TWF actions from happening. (GMs can by RAW say, "oh, that's too many free actions in a round".)
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Can someone post the legal RAW way to TWF with guns without growing an extra arm? I've read it before, but I've also had trouble finding it. I want to Favorite the post so I can always refer to it. :)
From what I remember the technique just needed weapon cords, but I'm not sure if you can take a swift action in the middle of your full attack action. Also, I'm not sure if you can fire all the iteratives with your primary hand before recovering your weapon in your offhand and then firing all of those TWF/ITWF/GTWF iteratives.
I think it works like this (not 100% certain if this is RAW legal):
A) two pistols on weapon cords, primary hand weapon in hand and loaded, secondary hand weapon dangling from cord.
B) fire primary hand, reload with second hand.
C) repeat firing your primary hand for all iteratives.
D) drop primary hand gun as free action, and retrieve secondary gun as swift action.
E) fire secondary hand weapon, reloading with the now free primary hand.
F) repeat firing your secondary hand for all TWF/ITWF/GTWF iteratives.
G) You are done, and in the position to repeat the next round by making your current (secondary hand) the primary hand since it is now the one holding a gun.
That seems about right. However, make sure your DM doesn't attempt to sunder the weapon cords, as they have 0 hp. Also make sure he doesn't consider reloading a gun a 'finer action', as weapon cords may interfere with such actions. Do you plan on having these cords attached to you and your weapons at all times?
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The weapon cords option is cheese and depends on how your GM wants to let that function. I have already said that reloading a gun as a free action is a finer action in my games.Some people may consider an extra arm to reload 'cheesy', but at least you have to invest 2 levels in order to do so.
Its not "cheesy" IMO. Its clever. You need a free hand to reload so you get one. Sorry but a 1s investment allows me to circumvent something the game designers went out of their way to put in print? Eh. Thats "cheesy".
If you really want crazy, throw in a level of witch [...] and use your hair or beard to reload =).
Oh wow. That's awesome. Now I want to make a super-sterotypical Western gunslinger who reloads his pistols with his giant mustache.
I would heartily suggest against the Mysterious Stranger archetype. While it sounds fun, you can play The Man With No Name without it, and then regain the class feature that the Mysterious Stranger loses:
GUN TRAINING.
Seriously. Reread gun training. There is no class feature that's worth losing +Dex on the damage roll and less misfire problems. Do not take Mysterious Stranger. Take Pistolero, or even just stay a standard Gunslinger. Just don't do Mysterious Stranger unless you can find some fun reason that I can't.
Mysterious Stranger actually isn't a bad choice in several builds, especially the Paladin / Gunslinger builds and similar choices.
In the long run, the Mysterious Stranger trades consistent damage for consistent stability; you can prevent your guns from misfiring quite often if you're investing in Charisma (and you should be) without having to spend grit. Not to mention that the Mysterious Stranger is MUCH better as the weapon generalist; you'll note that the abilities they gain (including Charisma to damage rolls) don't limit the Mysterious Stranger to a specific weapon. That means that the Mysterious Stranger can carry a much wider array of weapons and be good with all of them then a standard Gunslinger is.
I'm not saying that the Mysterious Stranger is the best option, but it isn't terrible; there are some serious benefits to taking it. I actually have a player that uses it quite well in one of my current games.
ya I was wondering when someone would mention using alchemist to use 4 hands... My main question is does this now use multiweapon fighting instead of two weapon fighting? If so how does that work and how does Improved/greater multiweapon fighting work? does it even exist anymore?
Really am curious as I plan to try to make a four armed Ranger/alchemist sometime.
Does your GM know that with just your 2 weapons you have blown the Wealth By Level out of the water? I mean your 2 weapons alone are 34000 gold! That is over TWICE the suggested Wealth By Level, and leaves you ZERO for armor and saves...
He's never really worried about that in any of his games. He also could give two craps about weapon proficiencies as well. Pretty much as long as you can make good story out of it, this guy will allow it.
sorry for double posting, but I have another question. Does targeting the torso deed increase the threat range of the weapon or does it modify it? If it increases it, it does not stack with Improved Critical as it expands it. If it modifys it, then effects like Improved Critical would change this to a 16-20? I'm confused by the wording so any clarification would be great!
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Multi-attack is specifically for natural weapons. You want Multiweapon Fighting from the Beastiary, and again that is a -2 main hand and a -6 for each additional hand reduction just like Two Weapon Fighting. Only need to take it once.
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
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If you really want crazy, throw in four levels of alchemist (with two vestigial arms) and a level of witch. That way you can shoot four revolvers at the same time and use your hair or beard to reload =).
Unfortunately, vestigial arm will not allow you make additional attacks through a 3rd and 4th revolver. In addition, I believe that Prehensile hair can only be used up to 1 minute per witch level, and must be used in 1-minute increments. This means that with 1 level of witch, you'd only be able to make use of your hair for 10 consecutive combat rounds in a day.
GM will allow weapon cords. He's very into the simple solution to everything. Next question: How many rounds can I go without a reload assuming TWF with 12 shots (twin 6-guns)? Basically, I want to play up the idea of strafing and ducking for cover. The tech of the game would allow for a speed-loader, possibly...
Oh, and I also have an M1911 in my boot, complete with silencer (for avoiding those pesky cave-ins if I ever need to shoot something underground).
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If you really want crazy, throw in four levels of alchemist (with two vestigial arms) and a level of witch. That way you can shoot four revolvers at the same time and use your hair or beard to reload =).Unfortunately, vestigial arm will not allow you make additional attacks through a 3rd and 4th revolver. In addition, I believe that Prehensile hair can only be used up to 1 minute per witch level, and must be used in 1-minute increments. This means that with 1 level of witch, you'd only be able to make use of your hair for 10 consecutive combat rounds in a day.
With Multiweapon fighting you could use 3-4 firearms. Is that what the developers of the game designed it for? Nope. They've stated time and time again it wasn't created to give you the ability to dual wield 2 Great Swords, but they didn't specify so as printed its fair game. If you can't kill what you are fighting in 10 rounds with 4 firearms a blazin then there may be a CR problem.
GM has allowed weapon cords. He is very into the simple solution to everything.
NEXT QUESTION: How many rounds can I go before having to reload, assuming 2 revolvers (12 shots total) with TWF and Rapid Shot? If my math is right, 3 rounds, then a full round to reload (unless I have Rapid Reload or a speedloader), or is two full rounds?
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With Multiweapon fighting you could use 3-4 firearms. Is that what the developers of the game designed it for? Nope. They've stated time and time again it wasn't created to give you the ability to dual wield 2 Great Swords, but they didn't specify so as printed its fair game. If you can't kill what you are fighting in 10 rounds with 4 firearms a blazin then there may be a CR problem.
All that Multiweapon fighting does is reduce the penalties for fighting with 3 or more weapons -- if you can fight with 3 or more weapons in the first place. Vestigial Arms however don't qualify as such:
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
It seems like you're implying that the Multiweapon Fighting feat grants additional attacks. It doesn't.
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GM has allowed weapon cords. He is very into the simple solution to everything.
NEXT QUESTION: How many rounds can I go before having to reload, assuming 2 revolvers (12 shots total) with TWF and Rapid Shot? If my math is right, 3 rounds, then a full round to reload (unless I have Rapid Reload or a speedloader), or is two full rounds?
Considering that Revolvers are an Advanced Fire Arm, they normally require a move action to reload to its full capacity (6 bullets per gun). With rapid reload, it becomes a free action.
Considering that Revolvers are an Advanced Fire Arm, they normally require a move action to reload to its full capacity (6 bullets per gun). With rapid reload, it becomes a free action.GM has allowed weapon cords. He is very into the simple solution to everything.
NEXT QUESTION: How many rounds can I go before having to reload, assuming 2 revolvers (12 shots total) with TWF and Rapid Shot? If my math is right, 3 rounds, then a full round to reload (unless I have Rapid Reload or a speedloader), or is two full rounds?
Sweet. I may see if a speedloader is proper for the tech of the game, that way we can play with the idea of she can reload as a free action with the tool, but she doesn't have the feat, so if she loses the tool, she's a little bit screwed.
But if I don't need the feat (assuming the speedloader is available) it would be fun to play through a scenario where the GM takes advantage of the fact that it's gonna take me longer to reload. Maybe the tool breaks, or gets pickpocketed away form me, or I simply don't have time to grab it before rushing to the battle that woke me up from a dead sleep.
Buddy of mine is foregoing rapid reload and instead has rapid shot twf and quickdraw while wearing a brace of 6 loaded blackpowder pistols at a time, and hoping to reload after or between combats at a rate of two pistols per round with alchemical cartridges.