Wow this thread has gotten long.
I skipped many pages I admit but...
Bob Sue Kathy and Bill. Your average party.
Bill receives some training and can make a flashlight for $20 after a stop at Johns Light shop for parts.
Bob Sue and Kathy can either buy the flashlight from Bill for $22 ($20 + 10% or $2 for his time) or go to the local adventure-mart and buy it for $40.
What is the discussion?
That Bill should sell it to them for $20 because he made it himself? You still saved $18 why are you complaining? And what do you say to John? He is an even bigger jerk because he must have read some rulebook to a GAME that said he had to sell at fixed price even if he was "some kind of special" who could blow on dust-bunnies and make batteries at no cost. Bill still has to pay full battery price? Wow that John is sure a jerk.
That would be my response to what I read skipping pages.
So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?
And Kathy's heals, could just as well have been healing potions Bob had to buy, so why should Bob complain about paying a fee for heals?
After all, it's a bargain!
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Wow this thread has gotten long.
I skipped many pages I admit but...
Bob Sue Kathy and Bill. Your average party.
Bill receives some training and can make a flashlight for $20 after a stop at Johns Light shop for parts.
Bob Sue and Kathy can either buy the flashlight from Bill for $22 ($20 + 10% or $2 for his time) or go to the local adventure-mart and buy it for $40.
What is the discussion?
That Bill should sell it to them for $20 because he made it himself? You still saved $18 why are you complaining? And what do you say to John? He is an even bigger jerk because he must have read some rulebook to a GAME that said he had to sell at fixed price even if he was "some kind of special" who could blow on dust-bunnies and make batteries at no cost. Bill still has to pay full battery price? Wow that John is sure a jerk.
That would be my response to what I read skipping pages.
So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?
And Kathy's heals, could just as well have been healing potions Bob had to buy, so why should Bob complain about paying a fee for heals?
After all, it's a bargain!
Actually no I wouldn't because that's one way we do it. If we find items we all want we roll to see who gets it. If Jimmy wins it then he could turn around and sell it to Bobby for what ever he wants. Now if Bobby finds the price reasonable he will pay it, if not then he won't.
Actually no I wouldn't because that's one way we do it. If we find items we all want we roll to see who gets it. If Jimmy wins it then he could turn around and sell it to Bobby for what ever he wants. Now if Bobby finds the price reasonable he will pay it, if not then he won't.
OK, I think I got it. Every character has a random chance to profit from their party members, should they choose to do so, but in your party only the crafter is guaranteed a profit.
Way to muddy the waters, AD.
Loot distribution and crafting are two different things. Just because Fighter-Friend struck the killing blow, that doesn't discount all the damage Mr. Wizard did the previous two rounds.
Combat = group effort
Crafting = individual effort
I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.
Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".
You want to play capitalist profiteers...
I'll play a capitalist profiteer.
Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.
You charge me.
I charge you.
Simple. Straightforward. Fair.
I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.
Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".
You want to play capitalist profiteers...
I'll play a capitalist profiteer.
Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.
You charge me.
I charge you.
Simple. Straightforward. Fair.
But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?
AD is going to say that he wasn't playing against his friends when he won, therefore he can keep the additional loot.
Nice.
Now try this on for size - the party Face says "hey guys I'm gonna play in a game with a 200000gp buy-in. If you guys each front me 50k, then I'll have enough to enter. If I win, you guys get your 50k back + 10% interest. I keep the rest.
Assuming Face-man wins big, is he stealing from the party?
I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!
Where?
I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!Where?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with 5% or 10%. Considering that most crafters are casters that rely on a lot of consumables to cover their limited number of spell slots, a small fee to cover the fact that they are using their time to make something for someone else instead of scrolls/wands/potions for themselves is perfectly reasonable. They are, in fact, weakening their own combat ability to strengthen someone else's, and that deserves at least some token recognition. Not to mention that some DM's actually enforce the costs of expensive material components, as well as add research costs to figure out how to craft the item in the first place. I could even see up to 20% under the right circumstances. I wouldn't go above 20%, but even 20% isn't even close to making them pay market value.
A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections. If the others don't want to pay the fee, they can spend their optional feat slots on the necessary feats, and make it themselves.
A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections.
Cleric casts Heal like the Rogue wipes his butt; every day! There is no comparison between charging for class functions and charging for crafting items.
AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?AD is going to say that he wasn't playing against his friends when he won, therefore he can keep the additional loot.
Nice.
Now try this on for size - the party Face says "hey guys I'm gonna play in a game with a 200000gp buy-in. If you guys each front me 50k, then I'll have enough to enter. If I win, you guys get your 50k back + 10% interest. I keep the rest.
Assuming Face-man wins big, is he stealing from the party?
So, for the second time loaba, stop putting words in my mouth. I am flagging this one and I'll flag every one you do this. It is unbelievably rude and irritating to do this, and you do it repeatedly.
I can speak for myself.
A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections.Cleric casts Heal like the Rogue wipes his butt; every day! There is no comparison between charging for class functions and charging for crafting items.
AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!
Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.
Let me break down your arguments.
1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.
2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.
3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.
None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."
Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.
Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.
And..
Let me break down your arguments...
One has to appreciate the irony of someone who flags someone for the very thing they themselves do in the same post (next sentence to be exact). Hmpf!
Let me break down your arguments.
1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.
2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.
3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.
None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."
Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.
Lets Breakdown the Breakdown:
1) The difference lies in the Crafter is providing a service above and beyond the normal adventuring tasks.. Crafter wizard casts spells just as much as Mr Healer casts heals.2) So does the Crafter wizard who researches in the library. aka see #1
3) Re-read SKR's ruling on the RAW behind crafting and WBL. It's on a few pages here, you should be able to find it. Also to adapt a movie reference: Can you show me in the CRB where the rules for how to use the bathroom are? The rules don't prohibit selling, so selling is legal.
Un-numbered 1) The arguments hold up quite well, you're just mischaracterizing them. Also, as repeatedly mentioned Selling to party members is NOT the only IN GAME WAY to increase wealth with crafting. See the Hedge Magician trait as exhibit A in that regard.
Un-numbered 2) "I see you are grappled, Pay me 50gp to grease you or get crushed to death"
*Edit* Bonus points to the first one to guess the movie reference that I was adapting for in #3.
I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.
Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".
You want to play capitalist profiteers...
I'll play a capitalist profiteer.
Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.
You charge me.
I charge you.
Simple. Straightforward. Fair.
But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?
alot of this is also assuming the crafter is a wizard, which I made my crafter be a fighter. fighter's don't really lose much crafting cause they have tons of feats.
I think the point AD is making is that if you start charging for something, why can't someone else charge for something else? if he's not making that argument, how does fee crafting compare to the slippery slope argument? cause i'm sure the guy with the out of combat healing could have most of the group by the balls if he says, "give me 50g or i won't heal you."
The problem I have with the slippery slope argument is that if everyone charges for everything, ultimately everybody ends up equal...
eg.
Ranger charges 50g for tracking
Fighter charges 50g for tripping
Cleric charges 50g for heals
Wizard charges 50g for spells
Everyone ultimately pays eachother roughly the same for what they do, and in the end, the Crafter guy still ends up ahead because he also charges for crafting. The argument just doesnt hold up.
So, for the second time loaba, stop putting words in my mouth.
Who's putting words in your mouth, AD? Based on what you've said previously, casino gambling appears to be okay. There is no inter-party contract there. Is there?
flagging this one and I'll flag every one you do this. It is unbelievably rude and irritating to do this, and you do it repeatedly.
You played the Big Jerk card, AD. That was definitely in the realm of rude and irritating. I guess someone should have flagged that, huh? lol
AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.
Read your own posts, man!
Your argument is solely based on the fact that YOU know the rules in regards to crafting and selling items to NPC's. That's meta-gaming! Your character, in all probability, thinks that buying a custom ordered magic item for less than shop price is a very good thing indeed.
In-character, fee-crafting is a really good deal. Out-of-character, Free-crafting makes sense because you assume the crafter can't refuse your demands and sell the item for more.
Yes, AD, I stand by my statement. You are using the meta-game to justify the best price for your character. In doing so, you're devaluing the in-game time of the crafter PC.
Let me break down your arguments.
1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.
Combat healing is not the same as combat crafting. In fact, there is no such thing as combat crafting.
See the difference now?
2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.
Track costs the Ranger nothing and he's going to do it anyway.
Rogue sneaks for free and he's going to do it anyway.
Are you seeing the trend yet?
3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.
So if there's no RAW, well then it must be bad-wrong for the crafter to value his time and charge for it?
None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."
The bottom line is, again AD, that you just don't want to pay the crafter more than 50%. 'Cause you're cheap and you don't recognize a good deal when you see one. :P
Countering the wizard's 10% crafting fee by charging for your actions in the party is a foolish gambit. My wizards have universally been the one in the party that did the most damage, handed out the most buffs, helped the adventure through scrying/teleporting/door-making, and if necessary could do a fair share of OoC healing thanks to UMD.
If I really wanted, my wizard could make a minion that's as powerful as you (and have, free of charge). Now that every gold that would be given to you for your sword swings can be deducted from your debt to the skeleton's punches, you can provide any normal loot you get to the wizard because of all the stuff he's doing on top of that.
Not exactly a good way to 'get back' at the supposedly greedy wizard.
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I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.
this actually is not necessarily true, i would love to see your archer attack anyone in obscuring mist, through a wall, or while in darkness. a good cleric/wizard will shut an archer down, while a mage has tools to counter those abilities.
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yet again i disagree, seeking bow does not allow you to hit the target unless you know which square to hit. i never talk pvp, i talk BBEG v your archer. my point is that you cant say "archer > wizard in damage potential? because how do you rate save or die in damage? one hit kill?
also wizards have more flexability over any other class as far as having the best potential damage. you might theory craft having 150 dpr, but that dosent mean squat when the BBEG throws up a wind wall.
but anyway... we digressed the thread, back to the topic at hand. if you meta game you are in the wrong. so if you get pissy because i charge you 10% more, then you have already failed at the game imo.
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Um... doesn't everyone just pool party wealth and then discuss how to spend it well?
That's what my groups have always done, and it completely destroys the OP's 'conflict' because he cannot take money from the party, nor can anyone else, instead his crafting feat would be seen as that player contributing to the 'effective' use of the party's funds.
Carefully sharing out the wealth and hoarding your portion just seems to inivite pettiness.
stuff
You have apparently dismissed out of hand my arguments, stating that you have proven that my arguments are not valid, without, in my opinion proving anything.
Perhaps I am misreading your intend (happens on the internet from time to time), but your tone appears to be condesending, ignoring anything that doesn't fit your arguments, chastising me for bad grammar and throwing out strawman arguments.
Have you read the entire thread?
If you had, you should have realized that Selgard, Dragonfire8974 and Adamantine Dragon are the ones that have been leading the free crafting crowd. Selgard has posted that he is not emotionally involved in the discussion, so either Selgard is lying, or you statement that their comments were in the heat of the moment is incorrect.
My generalizaion comment is still valid, because the majority of the free crafting crowd that has posted in this thread and addressed the question have stated "craft for free or get out". Is not the basis of a generalization, that the majority does "x"?. Stating that you can make a call and have a dozen people post things/support your argument doesn't really carry any weight with me. Prove it, have them post support for the free crafting crowd and state that they are doing so because you called them, and it may carry more weight with me.
You've stated you need to charge a fee in order to feel appreciated. . .
You've stated no. . . its your "character" that needs to charge in order to feel appreciated
Actually, it was you who said that as a player I needed to feel appreciated, not I.
I have said that the PC should be compensated for their effort during downtime.And that is all the time I am willing to spend on this post.
I really dont see a problem with what u did. And i dont understand what the complaint other people in this post are making. U are providing a service, at cost to ur character (loss of feats). u are charging almost half what the item costs, taking only a small portion of that money for ur income. As a wizard im guessing u spend it on some of the more expensive spell components (mithril daggers for the wreath of blades spell for example). U dont have to be the crafter, u dont have to offer that service. When i am playing a game and a player spends feats on crafting, i feel compelled to give him extra for the effort. its still less money that im paying, and he gets a benefit from taking a feat tax that he may have lost by not having another feat or multiple feats. U guys want to talk about the players doing stuff to help the group well i think part of that should be helping the crafter.
@dragonfire8974 - it really comes down this, typically the crafter PC is making magic weapon for two reasons.
1. he's making things for himself
2. he planning on offering crafting services to his party companions
Obviously there will be exceptions, but mainly those are the reasons for why the feat was chosen.
In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.
It's really just that simple.
You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.
"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."
That is such a load of crap.
one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.
when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.
I agree in the sense that when an argument is taken to the absurd, it tends to spark an negative response in people. However, it can be constructive in the sense that some people cannot see where an argument breaks down unless it is taken to its extreme. Thats where the emotions come out and the accusations of mischaracterization comes into play.
-I do think, that if someone is having a hard time seeing the other side of an argument, then exaggerating to the absurd can be a valuable tool.
For example, in my previous posts, I took that absurd notion that if the crafter can charge, then the healer can charge argument, and I expanded it even further. The absurd argument broke down when one realizes that if everyone charges for thier service, the charges will equal out (heal for a buff; for a disable device.. ect). Yet, the crafter will still make more because he is doing something above and beyond that of his companions.
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.
In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.
It's really just that simple.
You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.
"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."
I just flagged you for the truth :)
-When you craft and sell at cost, you can then realize that the market for your items just increased to the entire world. You can sell to anybody including your party. Instead of crafting for them, I may just craft for my guild instead as it would certainly be in character for me.
Now when you charge a fee, the marketplace has now dropped down to you and your adventurers. Now they take the priority.
Nothing is stopping me from crafting for someone other than my party, and I'm sure I could find a million in-char reasons to spend my time crafting for NPC's.
Toss some incentive my way, things will change.
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item.
This is another point that is getting lost in the noise. In fact, in my oft-mentioned Second Darkness campaign, where the crafter was charging Cost+25%, the crafter Wizard wasn't packing anymore treasure than anyone else. And even if he was, at the rate that the loot was pouring in, it wasn't noticeable. The guy burned a lot of resources in Teleporting us around, making magic carpets, making people Fly, giving 'em Stone Skin etc, etc.
I'm not talking theory here, kids. I played in a perfectly functional game with a Fee Crafter. I have the shirt and everything.
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.
Everything you said here is basically the reason why I charge. I use consumeables quite a bit, and it helps out.. I also charge a minimal fee of 5% as well.. Barely noticeable considering I just increased his wealth by 45%.
.I could see not charging if everyone pooled thier money into one giant party fund.. and the crafter made everyone what they needed, and consumeables came from that fund. In this system nothing is the individuals.. everything belongs to the group.
A group like this would almost all be Good aligned chars.. which is not how our group is at the moment.
Here's another real-life example from my current group. Last year, we absorbed two players from the GM's old group. One of the new players chose to bring in a Witch PC. Well, once the ground-bound types figured out she could do neat things like Teleport and Dimension Door, we were all like "heck yeah, game on!"
"Not so fast", she said.
The Witch player made it quite clear that she wasn't some kind of Party Taxi Service. Rather, she had her own ideas for what spells she'd like to memorize on a daily basis. She made it clear that she would consider reasonable requests, but that we (the ground-pounders) shouldn't make any assumptions.
You see my point? The Witch player wasn't being a jerk, she was standing up for the rights of her individual PC. Everyone at the table understood exactly where she coming from and there were no hard feelings.
Your PC is not a Party Tool and shouldn't be treated like one. It's the same thing with a PC who has a craft feat. They aren't a Party Resource either.
So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?
1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.
2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.
3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.
None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."
Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.
The first quote and points 1 and 2 the same question, simply dressed up a bit differently. The answer is that the crafter does their part while adventuring with the party, as should everyone else in the group. Adventuring is combat, combat aftermath and traveling back and forth. If everyone starts charging for fulfilling their adventuring role, that it ends up a wash in the long run, with everyone ending up paying out what they collected.
Fee Crafter are looking to be compensated for work that they do during the downtime. The time when everyone else is goofing off, relaxing.
Argument 3: RAW also does not discuss making magic items for other party member at cost. So, if it isn't in RAW, does that mean that crafters cannot make magic items for other PCs at all?
As for the "To make a profit" comment, well, that has never been the reason that any of my crafters have taken any of the crafting feats, however, there are other ways to make a profit. There are the two traits that allow items to be made at 45% rather than 50%. The RAW on selling magic items starts with the word "generally", which to my understanding doesn't mean can only ever be sold for 50%, but rather it means that usually items are sold for 50%, but that there are/can be times when it is sold for more or less.
though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead
An excellent point. The only way to know is to actually play it out. My argument is based on an assumption that if there was no crafter in the group, the contributions over-time would equal out. Now if wizard takes some crafting feats he ends up ahead of the rest.
.It's a reasonable assumption given the difficulties of accurately determining the true cost of party participation.
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Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.
The fact guys is that we're all arguing our own opinions as though we can and should inflict them on our groups.
Its all just "how you think is the most fun way to play. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
If you think charging X% is appropriate talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.
If you think being being charged, or charging x% is absurd, talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.
I'm not really sure why the discussion is still going on unless its really just because everyone enjoys repeating their exact same reasonings over and over again just to hit 2000 posts.
"stealing from the party makes you a jerk"
"no it doesn't it just lets me maintain wbl"
"yeah but taking money from your party makes you a jerk, if you do it so can everyone else"
"yeah but the crafter's contribution is worth more than everyone else's so he deserves more money"
"but stealing from the party makes you a jerk"
we're just rolling through the convo over and over and over again like a broken record.
Truth:
WBL is something that the DM *should* be handling, using as a method to help make sure the party power is adequate for the CR of beasties he's throwing at them. Its not something the PC's *should* be having to even mess with.
Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.
Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting is allowed then its allowed. End of story.
Truth:
No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on.
If me or AD came to a "pro fee" crowd we could either accept it and go with it, craft things ourselves, pay full price, or go home.
Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group into doing things our way would be totally inappropriate.
If Loaba or any of the others on the "pro fee" crowd came to Mine or Ad's game, you'd be expected to either accept it, craft for yourself, pay full price, or go home. Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group would be totally inappropriate.
The only people being told to get out are the folks who come into a group and want to buck and fight the group to get their own way.
-That- is inappropriate.
Regardless of which side you are on, you *have* to be considerate of the wishes of your group. Discuss it. Then be polite, be respectful, and get on with the game.
-S
no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.
I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game
The fee crafters had asked a few times that if the crafter took the feat and only crafted for themselve, would they object. The half dozen or so free crafters that responded said that they would, that they would ask drop the crafter PC, and those are the only ones that I recall addressing the question at all. So, to me, that means that in general, the free crafters will drop the crafter if they do not craft at cost. I have no problem accepting that in your case it was in jest, but that still leaves the others.
I didn't take you to be a "dick" or "prick". Engaged and passionate about the subject, yes.
The biggest frustration that I have had in this thread is/was the derogatory terms towards the fee crafting crowd. When this was brought up pages ago, most of you moderated your terms, which was appreciated.