If my party is treating me as thier personal consignment shop, I would expect some compensation for my efforts.
This, to me, is the core of the profiteer argument. "Treating me as their personal consignment shop."
There is a wealth of assumption and expectation rolling around in that comment.
I see nobody answered my question about the fighter asking for a 15% "finders fee" on the mace he picked up.
I find it very interesting that people continue to claim that in game other PCs should be willing to pay a premium to a crafter just because the crafter took a feat when they know with absolute certainty that the crafter cannot sell the item anywhere else for more than half its value. What person in buying a car would agree to pay $1,150 when they know the dealer can't sell it to any other party for a dime more than $1,000? Every one of you defending the crafter profiteering here would sneer at the idea that you'd pay an additional 15% just because you knew the dealer.
It's preposterous.
[
I see nobody answered my question about the fighter asking for a 15% "finders fee" on the mace he picked up.
I did, hundreds of pages ago, but didn't see any answer.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5i8n&page=3?Creating-magical-item-for-the-p arty-small-fee#134
I see nobody answered my question about the fighter asking for a 15% "finders fee" on the mace he picked up.
If you want to open that can of worms with your DM, then be my guest. I expect your Fighter will get the shaft more often than not. Once you start haggling over re-sale price then all bets are off. You'll likely be negotiating from this point forward.
Putting on my meta-game hat, I'll take the locked-in 50% every time.
I find it very interesting that people continue to claim that in game other PCs should be willing to pay a premium to a crafter
Again - you can talk to your GM and start negotiating the buying and selling of magical items. Hope you're playing a Face-type, 'cause you're gonna need lots of people skills now.
they know with absolute certainty that the crafter cannot sell the item anywhere else for more than half its value.
Except the PCs don't know that. But you, the player, apparently think that they do.
loaba, in both cases you are making my point. I absolutely agree that you are opening up a can of worms with the "finders fee" argument. I also agree that if you start nickel-and-diming the purchase of magic items through appraisal checks, diplomacy rolls, bluffs and whatever else you want to try, it might be a very interesting interpersonal interaction, but it is not likely to promote the goal of adventuring.
My point is that this is exactly the same can of worms that you've opened when you try to profit from crafting items for your colleagues. And as proof of that, I might point out that actual title of this very thread.
I am not promoting these other actions. I'm just pointing out the logical equivalency between them and what the profiteers are doing.
The main thing that surprises me is that they claim to be shocked, shocked! that another PC might object to being treated as a profit center in the first place.
LOL, I really am done now. It's clear that there is a very fundamental difference in how people view this, and it's not going to be resolved here. I will just say again, try this in my party, and watch the fun start. Hope you've got plenty of cash to get through the day. 'Cause you'll need it.
This is exactly what I'm saying.. in a system where everyone gets to charge, the crafter (usually a spellcaster) still gets more due to him being able to create items for the party. This is why I find that particular argument fundementally flawed.I forsee alot of spell casters getting a ton of cash here. I also forsee the rogue getting quite abit tossed his way, for every place searched for traps, for traps found, disarmed, and locked unlocked.
...
If the crafter gets to charge, everyone gets to charge. No exceptions. No one gets to come to the table and say 'I can do X. I'll only use it if you pay me". It doesn't matter what X is.
In a group where everyone gets to charge, no one is paying the crafter because no one can afford it. Everyone is indebt up to their eyeballs because the higher you get the more things cost (to use) and the group ends up in endentured servitude *to each other* just to do their jobs.
No one has any gear- including the crafter- because they are spending more to the group than they are getting individually.. Everyone is hosed, no one can kill anyting their CR and the group fails.
The people who charge the PC's for their work are the NPC's.
The PC's are supposed to be working together and helping each other to kill and roll the bad guys.
Putting yourself above the group by saying you deserve more of the cash is just inappropriate. And a way to find out just how upset your group can get. Which is *exactly* what happened in the OP's group.
If one person is charging, then everyone gets to charge. Pretty soon you don't have a party at all.
-S
AD - do you realize that there are two markets in play here? There is the NPC market and the Inter-Party market.
About the NPC Market - if the crafter chooses to inundate the NPC market with random magic items, then he won't make any money. However, nothing precludes him from offering to take NPC commissions during his down-time. At that point they've effectively entered the Inter-Party Market and he can now charge any agreed-upon price.
/ and the GM now has lots of fodder for various plot-hooks related to the undercutting of the local magic item economy.
AD - do you realize that there are two markets in play here? There is the NPC market and the Inter-Party market.
About the NPC Market - if the crafter chooses to inundate the NPC market with random magic items, then he won't make any money. However, nothing precludes him from offering to take NPC commissions during his down-time. At that point they've effectively entered the Inter-Party Market and he can now charge any agreed-upon price.
Only from a metagaming perspective loaba. I am strictly sticking to what my characters would do based on what they actually know about their world.
My point is that this is exactly the same can of worms that you've opened when you try to profit from crafting items for your colleagues.
It's only a can of worms to the meta-gamer who says "ahh, I wanted it at half-retail!"
Except that's outright metagaming AD.
Adventurer's don't have any concept of not being able to make a profit from an NPC. That's rules, not internal world workings.
As far as the adventurer's are concerned, they are just trying to get rid of the gear quickly and are thus taking a loss when dealing with NPCs.
It IS absolutely fair AND TRUE for them to tell their fellow PCs that they are getting a discount, because as far as the WHOLE WORLD IS CONCERNED, they are.
No concept of it? What did your character do, begin with a 3 int?
crafter turns 4k into a 4k item. Goes to the town to sell it.
is stumped. its worth 4k. How odd.
Goes to next town. nope.. still 4k. how odd.
He takes 8k and turns it into 8k. crap, still sells for 8k.
Is the PC daft? This isnt' rocket science here.
PC2 comes to PC1: asks him to make a 4k item.
PC1 says: sure, that'll be 4400 bucks.
PC2 says: ok.
PC1: oh. so i can profit off him but not the guys in town.
he just made 400 bucks more than he can *from any other guy in the gaming universe* other than the guys he's adventuring with.
Thats RAW. Its simple and observeable.
Unless the PC is *literally* an idiot, he can't help but make these simple observations about how the game world works.
The other PC's aren't getting a discount, they are getting taken advantage of only because they are the only beings in the universe capable of giving the PC crafter a direct cash profit. BY RAW.
-S
Only from a metagaming perspective loaba. I am strictly sticking to what my characters would do based on what they actually know about their world.AD - do you realize that there are two markets in play here? There is the NPC market and the Inter-Party market.
About the NPC Market - if the crafter chooses to inundate the NPC market with random magic items, then he won't make any money. However, nothing precludes him from offering to take NPC commissions during his down-time. At that point they've effectively entered the Inter-Party Market and he can now charge any agreed-upon price.
Your character doesn't know that for the sake of simplicity and ease of play, all magic items have fixed retail prices and sell on the used market for half of that value.
Pawn shop is one way to look at a magic item shop. They buy used items.. polish them up nice and sell it at a profit. They make money because they buy low and sell high.
-
This train of thought got me thinking. Lets take a look at this a from a different perspective:Suppose that shop guy had someone in looking for a magic belt but he did not have it for him. Now crafter guy comes in and sells some things, and shop guy says: "Hey, you can make magic belts? How bout you make me a belt so I can sell it to the guy who was in here earlier looking for that item."
By RAW you couldn't sell to the shop for more than cost, but realistically, wouldn't you expect to be paid to provide your services to the shop guy?
If my party is treating me as thier personal consignment shop, I would expect some compensation for my efforts.
The magic item shop probably has such people already in a contract with them. The magic item shop owner might even be a crafter himself. There are probably guild rules and fees as well.
As a DM I don't personally care if players open up a shop somewhere and stock it with items. That isnt adventuring and is outside of WBL. If they want to retire to be owners of a magic item shop then be my guest but that makes them NPCs not adventuring PCs.
I think that getting rich from selling things at full price is alot harder than many think. Alot of the profit would be subsumed into starting and maintaining protections, guild fees, and other overhead. Additionally, they cannot find an item, stock it...and sell it the next day. It could take days, months, or years to sell a given item. Making items is just as problematic. For every item in their inventory they have had to spend money and it isnt making them money while it is sitting there. As a result, a lack of sales would make it harder to make new items.
- Gauss
My point is that this is exactly the same can of worms that you've opened when you try to profit from crafting items for your colleagues.It's only a can of worms to the meta-gamer who says "ahh, I wanted it at half-retail!"
Your repeated accusations of meta-gaming when I have deliberately and repeatedly demonstrated that my interpretation is 100% in-game and based on the world the PCs live in is just getting old and tired loaba.
Your character doesn't know that for the sake of simplicity and ease of play, all magic items have fixed retail prices and sell on the used market for half of that value.
My character absolutely knows what he can sell magic items for loaba. In fact that's ALL he knows about selling them.
You are right that he doesn't know that his bizarre economy is due to game rule simplicity and ease of play. He just assumes that's the way things work. Because... you know... that's how they do. For him.
Your repeated accusations of meta-gaming when I have deliberately and repeatedly demonstrated that my interpretation is 100% in-game and based on the world the PCs live in is just getting old and tired loaba.My point is that this is exactly the same can of worms that you've opened when you try to profit from crafting items for your colleagues.It's only a can of worms to the meta-gamer who says "ahh, I wanted it at half-retail!"
As is your insistence that your PC knows the exact listed value of X item. It's like your PC comes with his own copy of CRB.
As is your insistence that your PC knows the exact listed value of X item. It's like your PC comes with his own copy of CRB.Your repeated accusations of meta-gaming when I have deliberately and repeatedly demonstrated that my interpretation is 100% in-game and based on the world the PCs live in is just getting old and tired loaba.My point is that this is exactly the same can of worms that you've opened when you try to profit from crafting items for your colleagues.It's only a can of worms to the meta-gamer who says "ahh, I wanted it at half-retail!"
You are the only one that continues to use words like "exact" loaba. He knows well enough. 15% is a noticeable "fudge factor" in the prices of things. People notice 15%.
Anyway, so now the profiteer argument relies on PCs knowing with 100% accuracy the value of an item in game.
Pfah... what a waste of time.
Only from a metagaming perspective loaba. I am strictly sticking to what my characters would do based on what they actually know about their world.
I do not agree with that. The rule to which you are refering, states "generaly", not has to sell for exactly 50%. Most use the 50% to avoid the hassles of roling lots of diplomacy checks, and likely in the long run, it would be close to 50%.
Please note that the reason that that rule is in place is a metagame reason.
It is my understanding that it was expected that the PCs would be selling their loot to various merchants, getting various percentages for the items, but as they were not regular shopkeepers, it was riskier to buy from them, as getting your money back or hurting their reputation would not apply to the PCs. That the average of all their selling would work out to 50%.
I *might* grant you that a 1st level PC doesn't know that things are worth half what they are when they sell them.
But then they roll that first goblin, and sell its horse chopper.
And then the second, and that dog slicer.
And then they move up to say orcs.. and roll them, sell their loot too.
By what, 2nd or 3rd level? They are realizing that *no piece of gear that they sell* will *sell for more than 50% of what they buy it for*.
If I go to 1500 shops trying to buy X and sell Y, how many of them do I have to go to, if they all have the same price, for me to say "yanno what, X is worth X and Y is worth 50% of that".
by 5th or 6th level the PC's have bought and sold so many items that they *K N O W* what is gonna happen. That sword they have is gonna sell for half what it would cost them to purchase it.
Otherwise the crafters are metagaming by only having 2k on hand to make that item worth 4k because they really don't know the cost.t eh DM should roll random percentage to see if they spent 2000 or 4000 on the price of mats just in case they were wrong about the cost. cuz they are too ignorant to figure it out for themselves.
ya?
nah.
The PC's are in the business of rolling critters and selling the loot. The higher they get the more likely they are to know exactly how much thigns are worth both buying and selling.
Saying the PC's have no idea the relative worth of the gear they are finding every single day and selling is just being obtuse in an attempt to steeer it back to some sense of fairness for one PC to take another's gold.
I'll say this:
*even if* we assume that the crafter is the only one on earth who knows how much things are worth- its *still* wrong for him to take advantage of that knowledge to rip off his fellow PC's.
He's Still taking in more than his share of the gold.
The fact that your game world is screwy enough that the PC's aren't aware of it doesn't make it right.
Or is the rogue stealing from the party without their knowledge suddenly fully enabled simply due to their ignorance?
Of course not.
Whether the guy asking for the crafter to make him an item knows the "true worth" or not- charging him more than its worth is still taking his money for yourself.
Just stop it. You already got your share of the party pile. Stop trying to take more. You don't deserve it and you didn't earn it.
-S
I understand the concept that a crafter charging "only" fifteen percent on top of the nominal cost of an item seems to be a bargain when compared to the cost at a magic shop.
But that's not an accurate comparison. First of all, it's absolutely incorrect for the crafter to claim that you are getting a "discount." In fact you are the ONLY source of profit in the game world, and the crafter not only isn't selling it to you for LESS, the crafter is actually selling it to you for MORE than they could sell it to any other person on the planet.
If you are OK with being taken for a ride, then fine. But telling yourself that you are getting a "bargain" is just plain wrong. You are getting what the retail world calls a markup. And the only game world result is that your crafter ends up syphoning a larger share of the party loot to themselves, simply by virtue of having chosen one feat instead of another.
But if you don't mind being taken advantage of, then I guess that's cool.
It's a bargain, I can't buy it for less anywhere else either. If I can buy +2 longsword for 4400 gp instead 8000 then I'm happy to. Would I like it for 4000 gp, sure but I'm not going say no to 4400 gp and pay full price in the market out of spite.
I think the issue here is the crafter is getting 400 gp, not big deal to me. That's couple extra scrolls and that helps the party out just as much as my +2 sword does. If I went and paid full price for the sword I do the party more harm than good by wasting gold on something I could have paid less for.
Your repeated accusations of meta-gaming when I have deliberately and repeatedly demonstrated that my interpretation is 100% in-game and based on the world the PCs live in is just getting old and tired loaba.
I don't think that Loaba is the only one who doesn't agree with you having repeatedly demonstrated that your interpretation is 100% in game correct.
My character absolutely knows what he can sell magic items for loaba. In fact that's ALL he knows about selling them.Your character doesn't know that for the sake of simplicity and ease of play, all magic items have fixed retail prices and sell on the used market for half of that value.
Then he knows what he can buy them for as well. And he can compare that price to what his crafter companion is charging.
Fighter - magic belt retails at 4k? Hmm, crafter Friend said he will make it for me for only 2.2k.
He's Still taking in more than his share of the gold
Hmm, haven't we demonstrated that that isn't correct? That if the crafter crafts for free, that the crafter is falling farther behind in WBL?
If you are going to argue that the selling for 50% is in game knowledge, shouldn't WBL also be known?
That is, the PCs will notice that they suddenly stop finding loot at certain times, when they are flush with gold or items, and other times, another distant relative of the crafter has died (just how big is the crafter's family anyways?) and left them a pot of gold.
AD - you're saying that your character knows that a +1 Longsword retails for 2315gp and that the same sword can only be sold for half that value.
Well, yes and no.
You, the player, certainly know that is how it works. But your character really doesn't know that. Not unless you RP each and every buying and selling experience. Most groups I've been in focus the RP on the buying of items. Selling loot is usually handled by the party Face. He comes back with half the value of the sold items. The DM might say something like "you go to X places and move X items for this much etc."
The game assumes 50% because thats the easiest way for them to assign relative cash values as loot for the NPC's as well as everything else.
If you sold your items BY RAW for 25+(d25)% or something then it'd make it alot harder for *them* to balance things.
The same reason things have a static cost in the books not a cost +/- 15%. Static numbers make it easier.
As it happens, it also makes internet discussions easier. Can you imagine trying to discuss inter-class or inter-party balance with a shifting price for magical items? It'd be a frigging nightmare.
"wel of course Class A wins. He got 30% more loot overall because you have weighted dice. They should be more even" or whatever.
The fact is, whether you agree with the rules or not is largely irrelevant. We can have a nice long discussion about how stupid the rules are in some other thread.
For this thread, the RAW is RAW. And assuming the PC's don't know how it works is like assuming a rogue doesn't know about AOO's or whether or not he's likely to succeed in an acrobatics check.
Guys who are in the business of things tend to know those things.
PC's are in the business of rolling critters for loot and selling it.
Saying they have absolutely no idea, absent a skill check, to determine the worth of an item is just trying to unduly tax them.
I mean really:
How many times do you have to sell a sword +1 for X only to go to the shpo and *see your same sword* for sale for 2X before your brain cells connect and say "Holy crap bat man, he's only paying me half!"
Once? Twice? three times? a dozen? pick a number.
Or better yet:
you go checking out the shops.. see the price tag on that sword +1, don't ahve the jink yet, bummer.. you go out and adventure some, find two swords +1.. WOOT you are rich! you go back to town and sell one.. wtf? half? whats this biz about? Yep sorry dude, only half.
Guy breaks down and sells it for half and.. next day its for sale at full price! holy cow!
Even if you assume fighter thinks he's been ripped off, he goes to another shop next time.. same thing happens.
*the same thing happens in every single shop he goes to in the universe* BY RAW
How many times before it clicks? For the wizard? the witch? The bard? the rogue?
Even if one PC is an absolute moron I'm sure the others can help him figure out the math.
You don't have to agree with RAW. but its still RAW. And its what we have to go by, unless you want to open a thread about possible house rules to the (rather silly) D&D economy.
-S
Someone, anyone, answer me this; how does anyone in the party know that the PC crafter cannot sell his newly made magic items at anything less than full-retail?
He's Still taking in more than his share of the goldHmm, haven't we demonstrated that that isn't correct? That if the crafter crafts for free, that the crafter is falling farther behind in WBL?
If you are going to argue that the selling for 50% is in game knowledge, shouldn't WBL also be known?
That is, the PCs will notice that they suddenly stop finding loot at certain times, when they are flush with gold or items, and other times, another distant relative of the crafter has died (just how big is the crafter's family anyways?) and left them a pot of gold.
No one has actually proven anything either way, actually, since its an opinion thread.
WBL isn't known because its an abstract number. Your PC's can figure out how much they actually have (their current total wealth) but they have no method to figure out much they theoretically "should have" at any given level.
(even character level is an abstract really- though spellcasters have a more accurate way to gauge their own relative power than would any given melee person)
Knowing that any given item is worth X is something they can observe.
Doing the math for the group to figure out how much everyone is worth is also something they can observe.
No one can observe WBL because it doesn't exist ingame at all. ALl the group can really say is
bob has less wealth than jim
jim has less than cindy
and Steve has more than them all.
They could sit down and even it all out- but even then that has nothing to do with WBL- its just them evening out their inter-party cash.
WBL is strictly a metagame function for the DM to gauge the relative strength of the party vs the CR of critters he's throwing at them.
The PC's wealth in relation to each other however is easily determined by the PC's.
The PC's might notice they are getting more gold at X time and less at Y but since you get more as you level up and such and the number is always changing they'd never be able to accurately figure out what any given level WBL actually is.
To them, its just a matter of "wow those goblins are rich" or "dang these were the poorest freaking orcs we've ever rolled".
I mean think about our own lives for a moment. No one says "dang I just can't make any money. Maybe I hit my monthly wealth cap."
Which is really what WBL would be. a cap on funds acquired vs any given % of your xp value in relation to where you were in the current "between level" area.
or if you are 50% beteen 12 and 13 you'd have 50% of the WBL in that range.. and tomorrow when you leveled up a lil more you'd get a lil more gold to exactly match it.
I suppose in theory you could find exactly the exact amount of gold per xp value attained every step of the way from 1 to 20. but that would be the extreme weirdness. And would still not allow the PC to see "WBL". They'd just see.. a very very very very very peculiar set of circumstances.
Also: whether or not any given person is or becomes behind in the WBL is, to me, an issue for the DM to figure out not the PC's.
WBL is really his playtoy rather than something for the PC's to be jacking with. That is clearly my opinion though. Some of you obviously disagree with it :)
But to me, it should be up to him to rectify the imbalance.
If you talk to the DM and he says things are fine- i believe the PC's should go with it.
If the DM says "thats your business, handle it how you will" then the PC's should have a sit down and discuss 1) how the party currently sits in relation to each other and 2) some adequate means to resolve it.
of course if the DM just looks at you like a tired mule and brays at you incoherently at the suggestion of more work- well.. maybe the group should go ahead and handle it anyway. :P
But first and foremost it should be his job- to handle or to dispense to the PC's as their responsibility.
As a note:
I think its his job because really- how they treat the crafting feats is largely up to the DM. Whether or not they agree or disagree with SKR's ruling with how it does or should effect WBL as well as other things can come into consideration.
As an example: if someone has something that has no effect on group power or effectiveness should it count against WBL?
Be that an inn, a ship, fancy clothes or whatever? Whatever the answer is- is largely a balance issue as is one for the DM to determine.
-S
I *might* grant you that a 1st level PC doesn't know that things are worth half what they are when they sell them.
But then they roll that first goblin, and sell its horse chopper.
And then the second, and that dog slicer.And then they move up to say orcs.. and roll them, sell their loot too.
By what, 2nd or 3rd level? They are realizing that *no piece of gear that they sell* will *sell for more than 50% of what they buy it for*.
If I go to 1500 shops trying to buy X and sell Y, how many of them do I have to go to, if they all have the same price, for me to say "yanno what, X is worth X and Y is worth 50% of that".
by 5th or 6th level the PC's have bought and sold so many items that they *K N O W* what is gonna happen. That sword they have is gonna sell for half what it would cost them to purchase it.
Otherwise the crafters are metagaming by only having 2k on hand to make that item worth 4k because they really don't know the cost.t eh DM should roll random percentage to see if they spent 2000 or 4000 on the price of mats just in case they were wrong about the cost. cuz they are too ignorant to figure it out for themselves.
ya?nah.
The PC's are in the business of rolling critters and selling the loot. The higher they get the more likely they are to know exactly how much thigns are worth both buying and selling.
Saying the PC's have no idea the relative worth of the gear they are finding every single day and selling is just being obtuse in an attempt to steeer it back to some sense of fairness for one PC to take another's gold.
I'll say this:
*even if* we assume that the crafter is the only one on earth who knows how much things are worth- its *still* wrong for him to take advantage of that knowledge to rip off his fellow PC's.
He's Still taking in more than his share of the gold.
The fact that your game world is screwy enough that the PC's aren't aware of it doesn't make it right.
Or is the rogue stealing from the party without their knowledge suddenly fully enabled...
I don't think selling used good for 50% value tells squat on how much it cost to create brand new magic item. But anyone who can make appraise check of DC 25 should know. Base DC 20 +5 for magic. After all that's what the appraise skill is for.
As for ripping off the party nothing could be further from the truth. A crafter charges 50% over the cost, sure they are profiting. But they are a party member and that extra gold will make them more effective. At the same time the other party member are getting the items at 25% discount over any other method of acquiring the item. Even in treasure hoard the prices are based off full price. So that party is more effective at a lesser GP price. It's win win for party either way.
For the individuals in the party there may be some issues of balance depending on the maturity of the group. Some might feel it unfair that player A has greater WBL than the rest of party. This can get out of hand depending on how crafting is handled. For me if this did get out of hand I'd have the market offer the same discount. There are many ways to deal with it.
Someone, anyone, answer me this; how does anyone in the party know that the PC crafter cannot sell his newly made magic items at anything less than full-retail?
Just by observation.
They know magical item they've ever tried to sell in their entire lives sold for half price. Why would they think that something a PC made was different?
Does it have a warm fuzzy glow about it or something to make it special?
To an NPC, its just another item brought in to be sold. Where it came from is irrelevant.
The +1 sword the crafter made vs the +1 sword they "liberated" from an orc, there's no reason for the PC's to think it'd be treated any differently.
-S
So the 'no fee' argument is that since the entire rest of the world buys from you at the same cost whether you made it for exactly that amount or found it for free the craftier should say "Forget this, I'll just give it to Fred Fighter here instead. Hey, Fred, give me that gold, at least it's still in the party."
After all, Fred's your combat buddy and cares about you. Not enough to give you a little extra for your efforts in making him just what he needed. You'll get it back in trade in the next fight.
Thanks, Fred.
I don't think selling used good for 50% value tells squat on how much it cost to create brand new magic item. But anyone who can make appraise check of DC 25 should know. Base DC 20 +5 for magic. After all that's what the appraise skill is for.
As for ripping off the party nothing could be further from the truth. A crafter charges 50% over the cost, sure they are profiting. But they are a party member and that extra gold will make them more effective. At the same time the other party member are getting the items at 25% discount over any other method of acquiring the item. Even in treasure hoard the prices are based off full price. So that party is more effective at a lesser GP price. It's win win for party either way.
For the individuals in the party there may be some issues of balance depending on the maturity of the group. Some might feel it unfair that player A has greater WBL than the rest of party. This can get out of hand depending on how crafting is handled. For me if this did get out of hand I'd have the market offer the same discount. There are many ways to deal with it.
really tired of the reply button cutting off what you actually said, in favor of what you quoted me saying. grump. anyway:
To me personally- its not about individual WBL. I could literally care less about who has the most gold in the group. Truly. I honestly have no idea in our current group. I suspect its the wizard. (due to a recent spellbook gain).
The second person could be me (depending on if witches familiars are "priced" the same as a wizard's spellbook) or I could be in the middle or dead last. No clue, and don't really care.
And when we were awared them (the wizard his book and me alot of spells for my familiar) no one in the group said "wait one sec, lets calculate how much those are worth, you two owe us some gold".
I'm ok with anyone (or no one) being below at above WBL or beloe at above anyone else in the party.
What I don't like though is the mentality that says "I can do X, You can't do X, pay me to do X".
I can do *lots* of things my party can't do.
So can the cleric.
so can the rogue.
So can the wizard.
as can the magus.
so can the ranger.
So can the fighter.
We all do lots of things the others don't do, but virtue of our strengths and weaknesses and the roles we've chosen to play.
You go out, you roll a bad guy, he has say 6000 gold.
We split it 6 ways. everyone gets 1k.
One guy says 'waaaait a minute Ranger. I'll take 200 of that, because I did something you can't do'.
Or maybe its the cleric. "hey wait a minute, i cast Heal onthe Fighter, i want my CL*SL*10! (or 500) gold from him!
(CL 10 5th levle spell *10 I think is the formula?)
Its not about relative WBL or what the wealth rules say or how to balance it or all that other jive.
Its about one guy telling the group "I did something special, some of you owe me money for it".
Ya didn't, and they don't.
-S
So the 'no fee' argument is that since the entire rest of the world buys from you at the same cost whether you made it for exactly that amount or found it for free the craftier should say "Forget this, I'll just give it to Fred Fighter here instead. Hey, Fred, give me that gold, at least it's still in the party."
After all, Fred's your combat buddy and cares about you. Not enough to give you a little extra for your efforts in making him just what he needed. You'll get it back in trade in the next fight.
Thanks, Fred.
The argument is that the party is already paying you by virtue of the cash you get from rolling the mobs.
Not that freddy owes you personally- anymore than you owe him a favor by killing that orc who got up in your face.That doesn't mean he won't buy you a beer in thanks for making him an item, that doesn't mean you won't buy him a beer for saving him from the orc.
It does mean you don't get to charge him a fee for your character creation options and selections.
-S
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Someone, anyone, answer me this; how does anyone in the party know that the PC crafter cannot sell his newly made magic items at anything less than full-retail?They know magical item they've ever tried to sell in their entire lives sold for half price.
How do they know that? Did the buyer pull out his CRB and show them the various tables as he made his calculations?
I mean, I assume that when you go to sell your +1 Longsword, you don't turn around and buy exactly the same thing.
Why would they think that something a PC made was different?
I dunno, 'cause it's new and stuff? And he made it, rather than found it?
To an NPC, its just another item brought in to be sold. Where it came from is irrelevant.
To an NPC retailer, sure. It might not even be something that catches his eye. Now what if the crafter took an NPC commission? Couldn't he charge full price then?
How many times do you have to sell a sword +1 for X only to go to the shpo and *see your same sword* for sale for 2X before your brain cells connect and say "Holy crap bat man, he's only paying me half!"
OK, the fighter knows that he can only get half value for the sword. I can live with that no problem.
He knows that if he wants to buy that bow, that the price is 8K. So, he asks the crafter if they can make them a bow - crafter offers to make it for 4.4k - why wouldn't the fighter think that it was a good deal?
The crafter wasn't going to make a bow to sell to the merchant. The crafter is only making the bow because th fighter asked for a nice shiny and new bow. Yes, if the crafter wanted to sell it to the merchant, they would only get 4k for it - but they wouldn't have made it in the first place!
So, again, how does that automatically become taking advantage of a fellow group member?
He knows that if he wants to buy that bow, that the price is 8K. So, he asks the crafter if they can make them a bow - crafter offers to make it for 4.4k - why wouldn't the fighter think that it was a good deal?
According to AD et al, the wise Fighter knows that if he refuses to purchase the bow at 4.4k (a 3.6k savings), then the crafter will be stuck with it or have to settle for half-value at the NPC.
Man - who's meta-gaming, AD? Really?
You go out, you roll a bad guy, he has say 6000 gold.
We split it 6 ways. everyone gets 1k.
One guy says 'waaaait a minute Ranger. I'll take 200 of that, because I did something you can't do'.
Or maybe its the cleric. "hey wait a minute, i cast Heal onthe Fighter, i want my CL*SL*10! (or 500) gold from him!
(CL 10 5th levle spell *10 I think is the formula?)
But the crafter isn't doing that. The crafter only asks for gold when one of the others comes and sees them to request that they spend some of their downtime making an item for them. The crafter doesn't chase the other PCs to force items on them.
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Once I got high enough level and the cash was pouring in, I'd start to make items that I knew the party wanted. And then I'd sell 'em to NPC retailers for half. Hey, I still did you a favor. Now the item is in town at least.
In the games I run I let the players try to sell loot for full price. For most items this doesn't work but they can for unique items and magic items. I don't make it easy though, they need to find a buyer. It usually involves lots of roleplaying and gives me the opportunity to introduce adventure hooks. I also make it little easier if I notice that party member is under the WBL guideline while others are not. Usually happens when one party member has a lot of their consumable that used up.
For the most part the party member accept 50% just to unload the loot quick.
So in the games I run I don't find that crafting where the crafter charges extra causes much of problem. For example a fighter might want better sword. Gets the wizard to craft it and the wizard gets extra cash. Then I let the fighter find a person with some cash wants his old sword and is happy to pay more than 50% for it but less than full price. I balance it out.
I prefer the freedom of allowing a player to choose and depending on the character concept some might craft for cost others might charge a fee. In the end it's my job as GM to keep thing balanced and working.
Anyway, so now the profiteer argument relies on PCs knowing with 100% accuracy the value of an item in game.
Pfah... what a waste of time.
Actually, AD, the free-loading camp needs to know with 100% accuracy that the +1 Longbow, valued at 2375gp, can only be sold for 1187.5gp. I mean, how else would they know that 1425 was too much?
See, kids - paying 1425gp, rather than 2375gp, is just plain highway robbery! O.o
Imean really:
How many times do you have to sell a sword +1 for X only to go to the shpo and *see your same sword* for sale for 2X before your brain cells connect and say "Holy crap bat man, he's only paying me half!"Once? Twice? three times? a dozen? pick a number.
...
How many times before it clicks? For the wizard? the witch? The bard? the rogue?
Even if one PC is an absolute moron I'm sure the others can help him figure out the math.You don't have to agree with RAW. but its still RAW. And its what we have to go by, unless you want to open a thread about possible house rules to the (rather silly) D&D economy.
Except, by RAW, the only way for a player to determine the value is through an appraise check. Sure the others can help him determine the value through their checks, but there is a real ingame mechanic for determining value.
Now accepting everything is worth exactly half the book value is a meta-game concept that most everyone follows for simplicity's sake. The rule says Items "In general" can be sold for half price. This means that it is the GM interpretation on how much a shop will buy and sell for. A diplomacy check may certainly turn the shopkeeps attitude more favorably to you.
There is no "automatic" way for a PC to know exactly what the value of an item is save for an appraise check. It's meta-game to think otherwise.
If you want an in-game reason as to how one +1 sword may be percieved at a different value than another, then you could chalk it up to "this one looked more damaged than the other, or wasn't as pretty, Also the magic aura it generates isn't quite like the previous one, although it's very similar."
In the games I run I let the players try to sell loot for full price. For most items this doesn't work but they can for unique items and magic items. I don't make it easy though, they need to find a buyer. It usually involves lots of roleplaying and gives me the opportunity to introduce adventure hooks. I also make it little easier if I notice that party member is under the WBL guideline while others are not. Usually happens when one party member has a lot of their consumable that used up.
For the most part the party member accept 50% just to unload the loot quick.
So in the games I run I don't find that crafting where the crafter charges extra causes much of problem. For example a fighter might want better sword. Gets the wizard to craft it and the wizard gets extra cash. Then I let the fighter find a person with some cash wants his old sword and is happy to pay more than 50% for it but less than full price. I balance it out.
I prefer the freedom of allowing a player to choose and depending on the character concept some might craft for cost others might charge a fee. In the end it's my job as GM to keep thing balanced and working.
I like this. It's one of the most rational posts I'ge seen in this thread. (Including mine.) I'd play in your games.
Hey, wait a minute. Rational? How are we going to reach 2000 posts if everyone starts being rational?
;)
What it amounts to is this - it's your Feat, it's my need, and you need to use your Feat for me. Or I'll take my sword and go home. Buncha crap, really.
When we're in combat and I roll a bunch of dice and vaporize a baddie, I didn't do it for you. I did it cause killing stuff is fun. I did it cause dead things won't mind if I take their stuff. I did it 'cause you were over there do'n it too.
See how it works out? You vaporize stuff and I do too. And then we loot it and divide the treasure.
How does that translate into it being okay for you to tell me that I need to use my non-combat Feat for your benefit? You can ask me to make you something, and I will quite likely do it. In the case of the OP, I'll do it for 10% over cost.
And yet that's bad-wrong? You're right AD, this is a waste of time.
"I would be happy to help," the robed man whispered. He barely spoke above such a volume, due to an oath taken long ago. "We have adventured together, and I consider us to be friends." He pauses here, however and as he does a look of regret touches his features. The air hangs, almost tremulous as it waits for his reply. "However, my power is not my own. It comes from He Above, and I am beholden to Him. When we have time, such as this, I am expected to tend to my duties as I can...The Abbot has been eying his holy symbol of late, and He Above has many petitioners.
"However, we are friends, and I will speak with him. The Blessing of Restoration is normally a charge of 1,280 in gold coins. I would be happy to provide this service to you for eighty percent of that, plus basic material charges. A portion of the fee will go directly towards the temple, as thanks for the effort of He Above, my time, and to compensate my faith for its limited energies being diverted elsewhere. I believe the Abbot will see reason."
In this case, we assume that the priest's time is valuable to his temple. This is probably not unreasonable: a 4th level slot for most towns isn't anything to sneeze at. As an organization, they've a limited amount of divine energy to spend. Energy spent on you is less that is available to their deities' petitioners.
Now, that price given may flux. For instance, the Abbot may NOT "see reason." The Abbot may rule that the priest's help is needed due to circumstances around the town and may increase the charge as appropriate for "diverting services." In fact, he is within his rights to demand that the IC priest charge more than is normal.
The ink glistened in the dim light, still moist from where he'd scratched his signature. Gferdain looked up and met the eyes of his teammates. Young, not a single one of them over 25. "So that's it, then."
"Yes." Andulf grinned through his youth's beard. "The Seven Falcons is now a reality. We shall pool our resources for the greater good, and serve stalwartly at eachother's side."
Gferdain cleared his throat. "And Silva?"
A pause. "Silva did not sign the contract. He placed his interests above those of the Falcon. ...he...will not be traveling with us."
The warrior bowed his head, and the mage Andulf did in turn. The others soon followed. The day was Gilen 17, the year 203. It was the day the Seven Falcons were born, a group who would over time, become legend.
In this scenario, the group is bound by contract, made brothers-in-arms. Their resources are pooled, and they have agreed to strive together as a unit. RP here would preclude charging for crafting, or say, restorative services.
I hope these two examples show how RP can be brought in to support either argument. However, OOC should influence what the players are most comfortable with.
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I use a not-so-quick rule for selling. You can sell by default at 50% in 30 second of real life time, and I the mighty GM will take care of where and when you did it. Or you can actually roleplay the selling. This means you could actually try to barter with other used equipment (+1 longsword for 2 +1 shields) or you can try to roll a diplomacy for a better deal at the shop or eveng pay like 50 gold permission to have a table at the everyday morning market in street in the hope someone passes by and whant that thing. Or maybe some other thing i havent thinked of.
In the end the WBL will be adjusted in the times that come, if the players are smart and propositive and find a way to get more gold, they will have the benefit of being more rich than the standard for one or two levels. After all, if they put the effort to do this means they like it, and they deserve to have theyr cake. I'm the DM in the end, so i'm still the one who will end up eating it anyway ^^.
If anyone is counting, i'm for the fee side. It makes sense, both rp-wise and mechanically-wise, and that's all i really need to decide.
I use a not-so-quick rule for selling. You can sell by default at 50% in 30 second of real life time, and I the mighty GM will take care of where and when you did it. Or you can actually roleplay the selling. This means you could actually try to barter with other used equipment (+1 longsword for 2 +1 shields) or you can try to roll a diplomacy for a better deal at the shop or eveng pay like 50 gold permission to have a table at the everyday morning market in street in the hope someone passes by and whant that thing. Or maybe some other thing i havent thinked of.
In the end the WBL will be adjusted in the times that come, if the players are smart and propositive and find a way to get more gold, they will have the benefit of being more rich than the standard for one or two levels. After all, if they put the effort to do this means they like it, and they deserve to have theyr cake. I'm the DM in the end, so i'm still the one who will end up eating it anyway ^^.If anyone is counting, i'm for the fee side. It makes sense, both rp-wise and mechanically-wise, and that's all i really need to decide.
So it's all up to the party - take the flat 50 and let's move on, or stay a while and RP this out. I could roll that way.
Wow you guys post at amazing speeds...
some more food (I hope) from my side:
- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)
PS: we don't have any crafters yet... we're still low-level
- all my characters tend to provide the materials for crafting... you know when my plumbing needs fixed I usually go buy whatever my crafty friend needs and give him a hand while he fixes it, handing him his tools and holding stuff... call it "aid another". So our crafty guys either tend to craft while other party members are doing other "party duties" (bargaining with nobles, researching in libraries, ...) or they tend to get some help from those that got nothing to do because
in game, you just help your friends when they do something for you
and
metagame, that +2 from aid another might help with rushing the crafting and make the check a cake-walk
when you are helping the crafter you'll notice very quickly if that crafter is pocketing some money for his own purse
a crafter who refuses "my" help will be suspicious, because he either has something to hide or considers me a liability... I'd be offended by both. :-p
Unless the helper dumped his dex into abysmal regions, even handing tools or carrying stuff or holding stuff should be doable and qualify for helping to speed up crafting (=rush).
How many times do you have to sell a sword +1 for X only to go to the shpo and *see your same sword* for sale for 2X before your brain cells connect and say "Holy crap bat man, he's only paying me half!"OK, the fighter knows that he can only get half value for the sword. I can live with that no problem.
He knows that if he wants to buy that bow, that the price is 8K. So, he asks the crafter if they can make them a bow - crafter offers to make it for 4.4k - why wouldn't the fighter think that it was a good deal?
The crafter wasn't going to make a bow to sell to the merchant. The crafter is only making the bow because th fighter asked for a nice shiny and new bow. Yes, if the crafter wanted to sell it to the merchant, they would only get 4k for it - but they wouldn't have made it in the first place!
So, again, how does that automatically become taking advantage of a fellow group member?
See, it has nothing to do with the amount of the deal.
You are seeing it as "he's gteting a cost savings of X%! he should be grateful!"I'm seeing "he's charging me more than it cost him to make, he's ripping me off!"
*the group has already paid him infull for his contribution*.
Asking for *more* on top of that, for contributing, is the issue.
Of course he wouldn't craft it if someone didn't want it. No one is claiming he make a ton of things and hope someone buys them.
We are suggesting that if someone ask you to do something you can do that they can't, that you.. I dunno.. do it without charging them for it.
Just like *they* do on *Your* behalf all the time.
And for that matter, like the crafter is Also doing some of the time.
presumably the crafter has *other* skills they are *also* using for the group.
No one gets to select one, some, or all of their capabilities and try to charge the group for them.
You guys are getting lost in the "but but but I can charge money because you can't buy it cheaper than this' and are missing the "but the crafter ALREADY GOT PAID to do his work and shouldn't be charging twice!"
The ultimate WBL gain or loss to whoever is entirely irrelevant. They shouldn't be double dipping. aka charging the group for what they are already being paid for.
Everyone is contributing. Everyone is getting paid equally for it. Choosing X character option instead of Y doesn't entitel you to more.
(entitle? entitel? I can't make that word look right. am I spelling it correctly? its bugging me)
-S
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- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)
How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.
You can't meta-game the cost of an item and then expect to declare the Wizard is being dishonest therefore your sense motive and detect lies should show what you want it to show.
In actuality your sense motive would show that he is giving you a deal and detect lies would come up with nothing.