...To go back to the "business partnership" example:
You have 5 guys in business for themselves. They need alot of graphic design done. They hire RD to come do the work. yay RD. Guy 3 realizes taht its cutting into the profit of the partnership and talks to the group. He goes and learns graphic design. The group pays for the parts equipmenta nd whatnot and guy 3 starts doing GD for the partnership. They quit using RD. (or use RD less)Does guy 3 get to start charging the partnership part of the price difference of what the partnership is saving? No- he doesn't.
He does however get to enjoy the benefit of a more effective partnership.This analogy has a small flaw in it's implementation. Now Guy 3 is indeed saving the partnership money by doing design work "for the partnership". The destinction is that what if Guy 1 decides he would like Guy 3 to do a design for his personal use. Does Guy 3 not deserve the right to charge for this kind of side work.
I tend to look at creating an item for an individual party member in this manner. Sure, it makes him better. Indirectly when he is better, it also helps the group. However, it's still the individuals personal property and not that of the groups.
Does the payback have to be gold? Not necessarily. I'll do web design work for my friends sometimes for a case of beer (depending on the scope of the job of course). However, that case of beer has a market value that could also be attributed to gold.
The difference is that I see them as very different things.
When guy comes to the GD and askes for something to be made for his kid's school project, GD gets *nothing* out of it. Not one dang thing except possible good will. Now if Guy is honest, he'll offer to pay- even if GD isn't asking him to.
The guy in the group though is getting something out of it. He's making the group better. Making the barbarian's +1 into a +3 (or whatever) is directly boosting the effectiveness
Well said Diego.
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I did not read ALL the posts, so sorry if it was brought up before.
If you want to make money with crafting you could learn the hedge magician trait in addition to the craft feat and not tell anyone.So you craft the stuff for the normal price and get 5% for your own good.
That said I don't think it's a good trait but it could work.
The free-crafters field reply to that is "Cool, now we will pay you 45% of the market price".
Well two things. I've never met someone so absolutely strictly enamored and wedded to WBL to actually do this. So for me, it doesn't work.
two, and really more importantly:
it fails the "in character" test.
If you say it doesn't matter because WBL makes it a washm, then i still prefer my method if only because it would raise fewer eyebrows.
lets assume that its a 100% wash WBL/metagame wise.
IC: 5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting. 1 guy says he's going to charge for his contribution.
vs
5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting, all get rewarded equally.
IC, the 2nd method works far better than the first.
(granted, not everyone agrees- it is just my POV afterall).to me it just makes more sense than having one guy- even if he's a stranger- coming up saying "I'll only help you guys if you pay me" when everyone else is expected to get paid solely by the loot you bring back.
It becomes "You owe me an even share of what we bring back plus mroe cuz i'm worth more than you" which just doesn't work for me.
Actually, it was you and your side that has been saying that WBL and the GM will sort out any imbalance by not charging any fees for the crafting.
IC: 5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting. 1 guy says he's going to charge for his contribution.
vs
5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting, all get rewarded equally.
IC, the 2nd method works far better than the first.
(granted, not everyone agrees- it is just my POV afterall).
I think that this is where a lot of the disagreement arises from. I don't see it the same way as you do. In both examples, the group goes dungeon hunting - no problem. All get rewarded equally - no problem. The crafter doesn't say he is going to charge for his contribution while dungeon hunting, but he is asking to be recompensed for his time when not dungeon hinting. That is the in character reason.
I know that in your group, during downtime, everyone is out doing something for the group, but from what I am hearing/seeing on this thread is that most do not.
Out of character, I have no problems with crafting for free, depending on how group loot split happens. As it happens, the groups that I have been with mostly split along the same lines that you do - divvy up based on need, upgraded surplus goes back into the pool, sell the rest and split it evenly. So quite often, the martial (front line folks) have more loot than the rest of the party.
The exception to the loot splitting norm is when there are NPCs involved in the split (each get an equal share, even cohorts if they participated). Then the cost of the items is determined, totalled with the gold and the split happens then. Individuals can buy any of the magic items for the cost (what we would get if the item were sold) with their share.
In summary, where you see the crafter double dipping, I see the crafter being recompensed for their time during downtime.
Heaven forbid someone gets a benefit from a group mate taking a feat!Why is forty percent benefit not enough? Why would you rather get zero benefit than forty percent benefit? Why do you keep avoiding my other questions?It has nothing to do with "being enough". It has nothing to do with the amount.
The crafter can charge 1 gold piece over what it costs to make and its just as bad as them charging the full 50% extra.
You are getting hung up on the cash while ignoring the principle.
And you're getting hung up on the principle without considering the results. Crafters purposefully chose to be less effective by burning their feats, yet you demand to reap all the same benefits for no cost, while keeping all your feats, and providing no compensation to the crafter. Your demands do not result in 50% -off items. They result in full price items at the store. Your demands kill the golden goose.
Animal Farm.
That was beej67 - I've been much more civilized and have been referring to Selgard as Khmer Rouge-like but only for his willingness to force the players of fee-based crafters out of his gaming group. WHICH IS SOMETHING THE KHMER ROUGE WOULD TOTALLY DO!!!I find it hilarious that communism is being demonized in this thread. Sorry, it's not the 1950's anymore, Ayn Rand was as poor a philosopher as she was a novelist, and a communist nation currently owns 10 trillion or our nation's 13 trillion dollar debt.
I know, I'm a dirty, dirty communist (or a terrorist, or whatever sensationalist word you want to choose to belittle my position without actually addressing it) for disagreeing with the practice of charging teammates for providing services for them. Within reason. If everyone agrees with that.
Good God, there are a lot of people in this thread I'm glad I've never played D&D with.
I know, the feeling is mutual. And I'm a communist.
The funny part was someone was called a Fascist communist which is an oxymoron because fascist aren't communist (more like extreme capitalist).
Fascist believe in private ownership, Nationalism, Paramilitarism, Economic self-sufficiency, etc that are contrary to communism.
Pretty sure I didn't call anyone a "fascist communist."
But for the record, fascists are simply totalitarians, and you can reach that point on the political spectrum by going both ways.
I find it hilarious that communism is being demonized in this thread. Sorry, it's not the 1950's anymore, Ayn Rand was as poor a philosopher as she was a novelist, and a communist nation currently owns 10 trillion or our nation's 13 trillion dollar debt.
I know, I'm a dirty, dirty communist (or a terrorist, or whatever sensationalist word you want to choose to belittle my position without actually addressing it) for disagreeing with the practice of charging teammates for providing services for them. Within reason. If everyone agrees with that.
Good God, there are a lot of people in this thread I'm glad I've never played D&D with.
I know, the feeling is mutual. And I'm a communist.
And how did China get there?
If there's one country you really don't want to live in, it's China. If Selgard were Chinese, he'd be saying not only shall you produce items at 50% street value, you'd make iTomes for the entire town, you'd never sleep, never sit, never go adventuring, and also tithe any loot earned to The Party Chairman. For the good of The Party. Lol, they even call it "The Party."
(Just doing my part for the Run To 2000.)
If your motivation for having the caster craft at cost is to make the group stronger, than why wouldn't you want to give more resources to the caster? Making a caster stronger (by giving them more money to scribe scrolls, craft pearls of power, etc) only means more power for the group. How does a +2 to the fighter's sword compare to two additional castings of haste per a day? The more resources a caster has the greater the likelihood that the party will survive, if for no other reason than being able to afford that scroll of Teleport to get you out of the really bad situation.
People often cry "it's best for the group" only when they can't get what they want. I'd rather make sure the wizard has that scroll of break enchantment before the fighter gets his flaming addition to his sword.
And if feats were suppose to benefit the entire party, every melee type should be require to take iron will. I can't tell you how many times I've wasted a turn dispelling some mind affect on the fighter/barbarian/rogue.
Remember that most casters have additional expenses for upkeep. They have to scribe scrolls, craft wands, brew potions. That's money lost, unlike the fighter's sword. So yes, you'll get your +1 sword, but I'll need a few extra gold to make sure I have a dispel magic scroll when you fail your will save . . . again!
Actually, Fascism is socialism (with the serial numbers filed off)though I agree, socialism/communism is closer to what the 'free crafters' are advocating.
So, since Fascism allows the manufacturer (but not necessarily the worker) to keep his profit it diesn't quite fit the 'free crafter' side.
OK, got that off my chest...done with the political stuff.
And if feats were suppose to benefit the entire party, every melee type should be require to take iron will. I can't tell you how many times I've wasted a turn dispelling some mind affect on the fighter/barbarian/rogue
Amen to that!
Feats, like my crafted items, are designed to be taken by the individual. They benefit the individual, and they die with the individual. My crafting feat is not your public property to exploit at your will. And when I die, if you do not bury me with my hard earned and crafted magical items, and instead take them "for the good of the group", then may Abadar have mercy on your soul!
So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.
I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.
I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).
They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.
This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?
Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)
I would personally ask for the dm to let your swap out the feat, since you can't use it as you intended.
In our group we have an unspoken rule that whoever crafts gets half the difference. If our wizard can make a 4000gp sword for 2000gp, then he sells it for 3000gp. The PC saves 1000gp and can get EXACTLY what s/he wants, and the crafter makes 1000gp. We have all alternated playing crafting classes at some point, and no one was ever hurt or mad.
Part of our unspoken rule comes from the fact that most of us has dmed at some point and we don't want crafting feats to be a way for everyone to get twice as many magic items that are the exact items the character wants to min/max. I guess we could control how much can be crafted by limiting down time, but we collectively like splitting the savings.
Crafting feats are boring; pcs deserve some other benefit. Wizards generally use the extra money to stock up on scrolls/wands to be able to help the party. Yes the fighter is using the enchanted weapon to help the party, but whatever the crafter buys with his share is also used to help the party.
I think you are not charging enough. I was always grateful when my tank could save 1000+gp
I have no problem with him charging 10% for his time. In the end the other players are still getting a major discount.
I would write way more but I am on my phone. So eventually there will be a much more in depth post with more of my thoughts. (I trust you will all be on the edge of your seats waiting.)
...To go back to the "business partnership" example:
You have 5 guys in business for themselves. They need alot of graphic design done. They hire RD to come do the work. yay RD. Guy 3 realizes taht its cutting into the profit of the partnership and talks to the group. He goes and learns graphic design. The group pays for the parts equipmenta nd whatnot and guy 3 starts doing GD for the partnership. They quit using RD. (or use RD less)Does guy 3 get to start charging the partnership part of the price difference of what the partnership is saving? No- he doesn't.
He does however get to enjoy the benefit of a more effective partnership.This analogy has a small flaw in it's implementation. Now Guy 3 is indeed saving the partnership money by doing design work "for the partnership". The destinction is that what if Guy 1 decides he would like Guy 3 to do a design for his personal use. Does Guy 3 not deserve the right to charge for this kind of side work.
I tend to look at creating an item for an individual party member in this manner. Sure, it makes him better. Indirectly when he is better, it also helps the group. However, it's still the individuals personal property and not that of the groups.
Does the payback have to be gold? Not necessarily. I'll do web design work for my friends sometimes for a case of beer (depending on the scope of the job of course). However, that case of beer has a market value that could also be attributed to gold.
The difference is that I see them as very different things.
When guy comes to the GD and askes for something to be made for his kid's school project, GD gets *nothing* out of it. Not one dang thing except possible good will. Now if Guy is honest, he'll offer to pay- even if GD isn't asking him to.
The guy in the group though is getting something out of it. He's making the group better. Making the barbarian's +1 into a +3 (or whatever) is directly boosting the effectiveness
Not sure where you get the "crafter is begging" bit. I never said anything about that, I Think?
I proposed an example where someone came to have something made for an outisde the partnership purpose, verses someone wanting something for within the partnership purpose.
to put it more in tune with D&D:
Lets assume Fighter Frank really wants his (non adventuring, no group mate) sister and asks Cindy Crafter to make this person an item. Well in this case, I wouldn't oppose CC charging something.
Frank is asking her to do something outside the bounds of the social contract- to make something for someone else.
But if FF is asking for his own item for his own use within the group (such as a better sword, axe, or whatever) then I feel it is out of bounds for her to charge him for it. She's already getting paid for it, out of group loot. Double dipping by asking him to pay in addition to that is, to me, unreasonable.
What someone takes as their race and class is their business. WHat sometimes takes as a feat is their business. Their gear choices are their business. Their skill points are their business. And how they spend -their- gold is their business.
(case in point, in our current game one guy actually owns a roadside tavern)
-S
It works especially well when the crafter is proficient at wasting money, either by crafting lots of disposable items or just blowing wads of cash at the local tavern,I have to say, as much as I dislike the idea of them taking any money from me for doing their part anyway.. the "they can increase their spellbook" or "well its off setting WBL' and all that is a MUCH much more compelling reason than.. well.. what you said.
Taking my hard earned money just because he's proficient at pissing it away? that sounds really, really odd to me.
If someone is going to piss my money away I'd really rather prefer that it be me that some dude who thinks he's more deserving of it than I am.
(i generally try to avoid pissing much money away.. but your comment made it seem like the guy's job was to basically take cash from the group and roll it right into the drain).Like I said, I disagree with it entirely. but especially the way you phrased it. The other arguments are generally far more compelling, and far less insulting to one such as I.
(I mean ingame- not that the discussion insults me either way).
-S
The crafter as an excess wealth-dump is a meta-gaming notion that comes from the fact that crafting items for the party essential is creating wealth that otherwise wouldn't be there. Most GMs will adjust for deviations from WBL in one way or another IMO having a big spending crafter is as entertaining a mechanism for this as any. If it doesn't fit your roleplaying concept then the crafter can run an orphanage or a school for aspiring barbarians.
And, as always, you can your group can play however you see fit. I'm just explaining other groups can have fun playing differently than you guys.
oh I assumed that. There is no one way to play and have fun. Heck just the varied posts on the forums (not just here) have shown that. There are tons of people having a *blast* in games that I couldnt' ever see myself having a good time in- much less showing up more than once to.
And those guys would probably hate the games I'm in too.To each their own :)
-S
If your motivation for having the caster craft at cost is to make the group stronger, than why wouldn't you want to give more resources to the caster? Making a caster stronger (by giving them more money to scribe scrolls, craft pearls of power, etc) only means more power for the group. How does a +2 to the fighter's sword compare to two additional castings of haste per a day? The more resources a caster has the greater the likelihood that the party will survive, if for no other reason than being able to afford that scroll of Teleport to get you out of the really bad situation.
People often cry "it's best for the group" only when they can't get what they want. I'd rather make sure the wizard has that scroll of break enchantment before the fighter gets his flaming addition to his sword.
And if feats were suppose to benefit the entire party, every melee type should be require to take iron will. I can't tell you how many times I've wasted a turn dispelling some mind affect on the fighter/barbarian/rogue.
Remember that most casters have additional expenses for upkeep. They have to scribe scrolls, craft wands, brew potions. That's money lost, unlike the fighter's sword. So yes, you'll get your +1 sword, but I'll need a few extra gold to make sure I have a dispel magic scroll when you fail your will save . . . again!
I think that the issue here is not the wizard getting more gold from party but that the wizard who is arguably the toughest class in the game is gainning more power with that gold.
I mean logically a wizard crafting where they charge a fee is not stealing for the party. The character getting the item at discount is benefiting and the wizard getting more gold is benefiting. Both contribute those benefits to the party. This is not the issue.
Seems to me that those against crafters charging don't want to see a wizard to get more gold.
You almost never see anyone complain about a melee class that finds a way to gain more gold that other party members. In particular like rogue who very well could be stealling from the party.
To go back to the "business partnership" example:
You have 5 guys in business for themselves. They need alot of graphic design done. They hire RD to come do the work. yay RD. Guy 3 realizes taht its cutting into the profit of the partnership and talks to the group. He goes and learns graphic design. The group pays for the parts equipmenta nd whatnot and guy 3 starts doing GD for the partnership. They quit using RD. (or use RD less)Does guy 3 get to start charging the partnership part of the price difference of what the partnership is saving? No- he doesn't.
He does however get to enjoy the benefit of a more effective partnership.You can confront it with inventing something and getting the patent while you are in a partnership owning a industry.
You work during work time, with the industry resources and in the industry premises? It is property of the industry.
You do it in your own time with your resources? It is your property.The problem is that you guys don't seem to have a "your time" option. Never getting time for yourself is called slavery.
Even in AP with a frantic pace, like Crimson Throne, you have some time to dedicate to yourself and your loved ones. From your word on this thread you are playing the peer pressure card to the hilt (and then push even some of the hilt in) to force people to conform to the party desires. Awfull.
Here is the issue:
Its not that no one gets down time. Its that no one gets to charge the partnership for partnership stuff.If the partnership requires 2 hours overtime to get the work done, does any one member get to charge extra? or are they putting in time for the partnership and get a fair share at the end?
I've never once said that the crafter gets no free time. I just haven't. I've said repeatedly that the crafter crafts during group time and gets off time with the group.
The discussion is whether or not crafting for Freddy Fighter is off time or group time.
To me, its group time. You are helping the party doing your part of the party stuff.
You say any crafting that isn't for yourself is your personal time you are getting screwed out of and its slavery. I patently disagree.
If the group is never givin you any down time and you are locked away in a shoe box perpetually crafting then charge them for it. I've already said so, directly and explicitly. Everyone gets down time.
But by that same idea- if the group sets aside some group time for you to craft, then why not craft? Its costing you nothing and they are covering the other things needing to be done.
If the folks in the group are all doing group things- regardless of what they are- and you are asked to craft *during that time* whats the problem?
When "group work" is over everyone meets at the tavern, discusses the day, shares a meal and a pony keg and has a nice relaxing time.
What slavery is involved?
Is the wizard going to the library to research the Glabrezu slavery?
Are the paladin and rogue engaged in slavery when going to sell the loot and schmooze with the temple and nobles abit?
No.. of course not. The group has just sliced up the "group time" pie so that things can be done in the most efficient manner.
No one's getting screwed, no one is enslaved, and no one is charging for what they do.
-S
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Frank is asking her to do something outside the bounds of the social contract- to make something for someone else.
...
What someone takes as their race and class is their business. WHat sometimes takes as a feat is their business. Their gear choices are their business. Their skill points are their business. And how they spend -their- gold is their business.
(case in point, in our current game one guy actually owns a roadside tavern)
What exactly is a "social contract" in your view? For our group it's we go adventure, kill things, and divide the spoils. Nowhere does it state I need to craft items for the group at all, let alone free of charge. If you did not declare before hand what your social contract consists of, you are bound to get people who go against what you think is right, because it wasn't clearly laid out before hand.
...Your second paragraph seems to contradict your unwritten social contract, in that your players are investing thier money in ways that are not benificial to the group. (dont get me wrong I love the concept. Our monk owns a brewery)
If what they do with thier time and gold is thier buisness.. Why is it so unreasonable to ask for compensation when one players time is being used to make another player better? If that player is unhappy with the discount, he can always go get it on the market elswhere.
Well two things. I've never met someone so absolutely strictly enamored and wedded to WBL to actually do this. So for me, it doesn't work.
two, and really more importantly:
it fails the "in character" test.
If you say it doesn't matter because WBL makes it a washm, then i still prefer my method if only because it would raise fewer eyebrows.
lets assume that its a 100% wash WBL/metagame wise.
IC: 5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting. 1 guy says he's going to charge for his contribution.
vs
5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting, all get rewarded equally.
IC, the 2nd method works far better than the first.
(granted, not everyone agrees- it is just my POV afterall).to me it just makes more sense than having one guy- even if he's a stranger- coming up saying "I'll only help you guys if you pay me" when everyone else is expected to get paid solely by the loot you bring back.
It becomes "You owe me an even share of what we bring back plus mroe cuz i'm worth more than you" which just doesn't work for me.Actually, it was you and your side that has been saying that WBL and the GM will sort out any imbalance by not charging any fees for the crafting.
IC: 5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting. 1 guy says he's going to charge for his contribution.
vs
5 guys group up to go dungeon hunting, all get rewarded equally.
IC, the 2nd method works far better than the first.
(granted, not everyone agrees- it is just my POV afterall).I think that this is where a lot of the disagreement arises from. I don't see it the same way as you do. In both examples, the group goes dungeon hunting - no problem. All get rewarded equally - no problem. The crafter doesn't say he is going to charge for his contribution while dungeon hunting, but he is asking to be recompensed for his time when not dungeon hinting. That is the in character reason.
I know that in your group, during downtime, everyone is out doing something for the group, but from what I am...
It comes down to 'what is adventuring".
If in your game world bad guys only come out when you go poking into the dungeon and nothing ever happens in town, then I guess I can see that. Town is like a safe zone in an MMO and what you do there is your business.For us though it's never ever been that way. Even if we happen to be in a literal dungeon there's a reason for it and we know the things that happen in that dungeon can come out to haunt us later.
While not necessarily true at the very lowest levels, the higher you get the more true it gets. We're not attacking random people we're thrwarting a greater mission- a mission that's going to try to thrwart us too.
As the Ap progresses there is alot less "me" time and alot more "hey we need to stick together in case Big Bad decides to pay us a visit".
If its "dungeon group time, town my time to do what I want always" i guess I can see your point. That just seems extremely meta-gamey to me.
Even wih that concept though you still have the idea of "are you really going to charge me money to make our dungeon crawls easier?"
I guess I'd still just say no to crafters charging.
Regardless of who's time it is (since that's really what the argument seems to be coming down to "hey thats my time not your time pay up buddy" I boil it down to charging your group to make the group better. Just not really kosher for me.
-S
Frank is asking her to do something outside the bounds of the social contract- to make something for someone else.
...
What someone takes as their race and class is their business. WHat sometimes takes as a feat is their business. Their gear choices are their business. Their skill points are their business. And how they spend -their- gold is their business.
(case in point, in our current game one guy actually owns a roadside tavern)What exactly is a "social contract" in your view? For our group it's we go adventure, kill things, and divide the spoils. Nowhere does it state I need to craft items for the group at all, let alone free of charge. If you did not declare before hand what your social contract consists of, you are bound to get people who go against what you think is right, because it wasn't clearly laid out before hand.
...
Your second paragraph seems to contradict your unwritten social contract, in that your players are investing thier money in ways that are not benificial to the group. (dont get me wrong I love the concept. Our monk owns a brewery)If what they do with thier time and gold is thier buisness.. Why is it so unreasonable to ask for compensation when one players time is being used to make another player better? If that player is unhappy with the discount, he can always go get it on the market elswhere.
Our social contract is that you'll do what you can to help the group and that you are getting paid for it in the group spoils. Whether that means using maximize, power attack, setting up a flank for the rogue, or crafting things.
The social contract is also, you can do whatever the group lets you do. (which is really everyone's social contract).
The inn thing is actually an oddity. When he first did it we had 6 living members of the group. Everyone pitched in, and everyone was a 1/6th owner in the group.
My character died.
Now they were a 1/5th owner and my character wasn't. (just didn't make IC sense to have him buy in a share, yanno?).
Then 4 of the 5 remaining died- but the original owner got ressed. The rest of us didn't.
The guy who actually wanted and was for it being built and all that is now a 4/5 owner and the other guy is a 1/5 owner (or smoe such, i really have no idea how they worked it out).
The rest of the group has no ownership because they didn't pitch in to build it. But as a metagame issue the thing makes just enough money to cover its own costs so they aren't making money off of it. Its just bragging rights. (and a place to put all those flesh-to-stone'd giants we keep "finding".) More or less it just functions as a relatively safe place for us to come back to when we do have large breaks. Which have happened rarely, but they do happen.
-S
Heaven forbid someone gets a benefit from a group mate taking a feat!Why is forty percent benefit not enough? Why would you rather get zero benefit than forty percent benefit? Why do you keep avoiding my other questions?It has nothing to do with "being enough". It has nothing to do with the amount.
The crafter can charge 1 gold piece over what it costs to make and its just as bad as them charging the full 50% extra.
You are getting hung up on the cash while ignoring the principle.
And you're getting hung up on the principle without considering the results. Crafters purposefully chose to be less effective by burning their feats, yet you demand to reap all the same benefits for no cost, while keeping all your feats, and providing no compensation to the crafter. Your demands do not result in 50% -off items. They result in full price items at the store. Your demands kill the golden goose.
Animal Farm.
Except that anyone taking a crafting feat that nets gear they can use, is insane to think it gives them no benefit.
Unless your DM perfectly tailors to your every want need and desire in loot drops the feat is still a *great* choice. Even if he Does tailor to your want and desires it lets you get any given item alot sooner than you otherwise would (due to it only costing you half).I don't think anyone is really arguing that the crafting feats aren't useful. Just that they aren't something they get to charge the party for.
-S
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Been idly peeking in on this thread since it was first posted, and here's my little bit:
As a fellow player, the idea of paying 60% market value for just the exact item that I really wanted instead of hoping that the market [at 100%] or a dungeon delve [at the cost of hp and other resources] would produce what I was looking for, sounds like a very reasonable cost to me.
Just my personal take on the situation, barring long debates over Marxism / Socialism / Free Market / Supply & Demand / Welles / All-you-can-eat Pancakes / Whatever
The social contract is also, you can do whatever the group lets you do. (which is really everyone's social contract).
The inn thing is actually an oddity. When he first did it we had 6 living members of the group. Everyone pitched in, and everyone was a 1/6th owner in the group.
My character died........
I see, so it started out an equal endevor and then due to char deaths its essentially a 1 main owner shop (with a partial owner).
Regardless of how much money the inn brings in, did not the wealth of the 1 owner increase by him never having to pay for the shares he inherited?
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Wouldn't this be comparable to 4/5ths of the party dying and the 5th person gathering all the equipment and selling it for himself. Then when the new people come in at typical WBL, isn't one player more powerful then the rest?
If the player were to sell off the inn would he not get 4/5ths extra return on his investment in the property? Would he have to share that profit with the group?
Lets spin the scenario a little bit. Set aside the crafting feats for a moment.
Honest opinions:
The group just got fighting a ton of bad guys and everyone is pretty much down on their luck. One guy wiggles his fingers and starts casting magic.. his wounds are healing themselves.. his ability damage is going away.. he's looking stronger and better every moment.
You look over and say "hey man, how about tossing some of that our way? that looks pretty good".
he says. "sure, but yanno I really didn't sign up to be party healer. that'll be 50 gold per heal and 250 per ability redone, plus any components the spells happen to have: if any. And hey on that note, I also have some pretty neat party buffs. I'll memorize some each morning if you guys toss me 50 gold per and another 25 when I cast it."
The wizard, not wanting to be out done says "you know guys.. he has a pretty good point. If you were gonna hire someone to take my place, that'd take alot of cash. I mean, those guys make a ton of money to cast in town and charge double to do it in combat. Count me in.
The going rate is Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. Tell you what- you are all such nice folks, I'll make it CL *SL*5 instead.
The fighter, thinking this is getting out of hand, chimes in
"well screw you paper flingers. If you want me to do my job too, I'm charging by the sword swing. that'll be 20 gold per swing, whether I hit or not. if i get in an extra good hit that'll be 50 on top of the 20. And screw you if I have to draw my bow- that'll be 20 gold per arrow, 50 per that breaks and I can't retrieve."
the rogue.. well, the rogue isn't saying a dang thing. he's too busy taking his extra share out of everyone's pockets while they are discussing the matter. Danged if he'll let some uppity wizard or daft fighter cheat him out of his share of the extra loot.
Now I know thats ludicrous- but seriously.
Caster level × spell level × 10 gp
is the formula for casting spells.
I don't find the RAW on it but if you wanted to pay a fighter for his work or the rogue, or even a battle cleric to come with you, I can't imagine it'd be all that cheap.
Every single member of the party is effectively spending *tons* of cash for free every single dang combat. And for the casters- alot of it is done out of combat.
The game doesn't call it out as "you are saving your group X WBl by having a wizard with you instead of trying to hire one out" or a cleric, or fighter, or whatever- but that is the actual ingame effect.
Each member of your group *saves you* A TON of cash.
Not one person is saying "Now guys, I cast 10 spells thats like 12k you all owe me- i'll cut you in for half so pony up 6k".
No, of course not. he's already getting paid. He's getting paid by being there, by rolling the critters, by taking his share of the loot.
Calling out the crafter as some how special and deserving of more cash is just dishonest to the rest of the party. Everyone is working hard. Everyone is saving the group tons of money. Everyone is doing their part for the group.. No one deserves more than their share of the profits.
"I deserve more beacuse I'm saving you WBL" just doesn't wash.
*everyone* is saving the group money just like you are. By being there and doing their jobs.
Lets spin the scenario a little bit. Set aside the crafting feats for a moment.
We've been through this severl times already.. If one can charge for their contributions to combat then all can charge. You will find that most contributions to combat will turn out to be quite equal per action taken. And then, when all is said and done, the crafter will still be making more money because he is doing that little bit extra for the group.
The social contract is also, you can do whatever the group lets you do. (which is really everyone's social contract).
The inn thing is actually an oddity. When he first did it we had 6 living members of the group. Everyone pitched in, and everyone was a 1/6th owner in the group.
My character died........I see, so it started out an equal endevor and then due to char deaths its essentially a 1 main owner shop (with a partial owner).
Regardless of how much money the inn brings in, did not the wealth of the 1 owner increase by him never having to pay for the shares he inherited?
-
Wouldn't this be comparable to 4/5ths of the party dying and the 5th person gathering all the equipment and selling it for himself. Then when the new people come in at typical WBL, isn't one player more powerful then the rest?If the player were to sell off the inn would he not get 4/5ths extra return on his investment in the property? Would he have to share that profit with the group?
I had a nice neat post and it got erased. grr.
anyway:
If we were going to do it strictly by wealth probably we should sell it and all that. But really- we don't care. The investment made wasn't all that much, and it doesn't make sense IC for him to sell it or cut us in. And its not making him any money anyway. Likely we'll all end up retiring there in the end anyway. (assuming we survive. We've done a pretty good job of surviving since that one big near TPK we had awhile back).
As to what would happen if he sold it. I really have no idea. if it ever came up i suppose we'd all discuss it then.. but in reality I think he'd rather lose his left arm IC than sell the place. he's set it up as a temple to his god as well, now. (that drunk god, who's name i can never remember .. caiden? or something like that?)
as to the "what to do if someone dies". the last time someone died we were low enough levle (and far enough behind WBL) that the gorup did just loot the guy and leave him. He (me) had been turned into a shadow and he had no family that they knew of. They looted him, cleric said a lil prayer, and off we went- a lil more knowledable about how deadly shadows were to rogues. (the cleric potentially could have asved me with a bulls str but we all thought the rules worked differently. oops!)
In a 'strict WBL" group though I can see the Dm asking the group not to do that. The group can either do as the DM asks or tell him to screw off. assuming they do as he asks, they can find a reasonable IC thing to do with the stuff. (bury it with him, donate it to a worthy cause, return it to his temple if applicable, give it back to his family, or whatever floats their boat).
Its also possible he'll say "do what you want". then give the new guy X cash extra starting out to match the extra the group has and then trickle fewer shinies to them the next level or so to even it back out again.
-S
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Can somebody give me a tl;dr why this thread exploded?
tl;dr? What is this code for?
Thread exploded 'cause people are wrong on the internet. No, really.
Lets spin the scenario a little bit. Set aside the crafting feats for a moment.We've been through this severl times already.. If one can charge for their contributions to combat then all can charge. You will find that most contributions to combat will turn out to be quite equal per action taken. And then, when all is said and done, the crafter will still be making more money because he is doing that little bit extra for the group.
Except that he's not doing anything everyone else isn't doing. Choosing feats and abilities that enable the group to do things better/faster/more efficiently.
Or are you saying that if the cleric or wizard casts a spell outside combat they get to charge for it?
or if the rogue goes to schmooze with someone he gets to charge?
What about the guy in the library? Does the bard get to charge for going to research a bad guy?
Hey its not in combat, right? Lets have a charging fest and see.
Everytime there's not a bad guy in 20 yards everyone gets to charge a price they see fit for what they do.
I forsee alot of spell casters getting a ton of cash here. I also forsee the rogue getting quite abit tossed his way, for every place searched for traps, for traps found, disarmed, and locked unlocked.
The fighter could possibly get the shaft here but I bet it wouldn't take him very long to start finding things to do outside combat to rake in some cash. Heck he might even just start charging per combat so he doesn't get screwed so badly- since everyone else is charging the party blind for every little thing.
If the crafter gets to charge, everyone gets to charge. No exceptions. No one gets to come to the table and say 'I can do X. I'll only use it if you pay me". It doesn't matter what X is.
It has nothing to do with communism and all that crap. It has to do with using your character selections for the group. If you aren't willing to do that- why are you in a group at all? Seriously?
Everyone is charging everyone for what they do. Its called the split of the loot at the end. Everyone gets their share. No one gets more.
If the cleric insisted on getting paid Caster level × spell level × 10 gp everytime he cast a spell- what would you do? Honestly?
you'd either 1) reciprocate or 2) leave him at the temple and find someone else.
Why is the crafter different? He's not. Not one tiny little bit.
Do your part. Not more, not less, but your part. Stop all this "I get more gold than you do because i'm special" business. You aren't special. You just made one feat choice instead of another feat choice. That doesn't entitle you to take more from the group for using it.
-S
Can somebody give me a tl;dr why this thread exploded?tl;dr? What is this code for?
Thread exploded 'cause people are wrong on the internet. No, really.
tldr is "too long, didn't read".
it exploded because we want to hit 2k posts.
Seriously. :p both sides agreed long ago that whatever your group decides, is the right thing to do.
We're just keeping it going for s***'s and giggles now :P
(love you mods, please don't lock us. lol)
-S
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Been idly peeking in on this thread since it was first posted, and here's my little bit:
As a fellow player, the idea of paying 60% market value for just the exact item that I really wanted instead of hoping that the market [at 100%] or a dungeon delve [at the cost of hp and other resources] would produce what I was looking for, sounds like a very reasonable cost to me.
Just my personal take on the situation, barring long debates over Marxism / Socialism / Free Market / Supply & Demand / Welles / All-you-can-eat Pancakes / Whatever
HEY! No one said anything about all you can eat pancakes!
I demand all you can eat waffles too!Now!
:p
-S
I forsee alot of spell casters getting a ton of cash here. I also forsee the rogue getting quite abit tossed his way, for every place searched for traps, for traps found, disarmed, and locked unlocked.
...
If the crafter gets to charge, everyone gets to charge. No exceptions. No one gets to come to the table and say 'I can do X. I'll only use it if you pay me". It doesn't matter what X is.
This is exactly what I'm saying.. in a system where everyone gets to charge, the crafter (usually a spellcaster) still gets more due to him being able to create items for the party. This is why I find that particular argument fundementally flawed.
Been idly peeking in on this thread since it was first posted, and here's my little bit:
As a fellow player, the idea of paying 60% market value for just the exact item that I really wanted instead of hoping that the market [at 100%] or a dungeon delve [at the cost of hp and other resources] would produce what I was looking for, sounds like a very reasonable cost to me.
Just my personal take on the situation, barring long debates over Marxism / Socialism / Free Market / Supply & Demand / Welles / All-you-can-eat Pancakes / Whatever
HEY! No one said anything about all you can eat pancakes!
I demand all you can eat waffles too!
Now!
:p-S
I can craft you up some delicious waffles with my Craft Wonderous Breakfast feat... But it will cost you ;)
I can craft you up some delicious waffles with my Craft Wonderous Breakfast feat... But it will cost you ;)
Hobbits gain that Feat as a racial ability. And funny thing, you buy the components and they totally won't charge extra. 'Course, you're gonna have to fight 'em for the left-overs.
I can craft you up some delicious waffles with my Craft Wonderous Breakfast feat... But it will cost you ;)Hobbits gain that Feat as a racial ability. And funny thing, you buy the components and they totally won't charge extra. 'Course, you're gonna have to fight 'em for the left-overs.
I think it would be wise to let them have the leftovers, or on your next breakfast you may end up eating a cursed meal!
I understand the concept that a crafter charging "only" fifteen percent on top of the nominal cost of an item seems to be a bargain when compared to the cost at a magic shop.
But that's not an accurate comparison. First of all, it's absolutely incorrect for the crafter to claim that you are getting a "discount." In fact you are the ONLY source of profit in the game world, and the crafter not only isn't selling it to you for LESS, the crafter is actually selling it to you for MORE than they could sell it to any other person on the planet.
If you are OK with being taken for a ride, then fine. But telling yourself that you are getting a "bargain" is just plain wrong. You are getting what the retail world calls a markup. And the only game world result is that your crafter ends up syphoning a larger share of the party loot to themselves, simply by virtue of having chosen one feat instead of another.
But if you don't mind being taken advantage of, then I guess that's cool.
I understand the concept that a crafter charging "only" fifteen percent on top of the nominal cost of an item seems to be a bargain when compared to the cost at a magic shop.
But that's not an accurate comparison. First of all, it's absolutely incorrect for the crafter to claim that you are getting a "discount." In fact you are the ONLY source of profit in the game world, and the crafter not only isn't selling it to you for LESS, the crafter is actually selling it to you for MORE than they could sell it to any other person on the planet.
If you are OK with being taken for a ride, then fine. But telling yourself that you are getting a "bargain" is just plain wrong. You are getting what the retail world calls a markup. And the only game world result is that your crafter ends up syphoning a larger share of the party loot to themselves, simply by virtue of having chosen one feat instead of another.
But if you don't mind being taken advantage of, then I guess that's cool.
AD, a hedge magician or eldritch smith can craft below cost, making it possible to gain a profit from crafting on the open market.. the players are not the sole source of profit for a crafter.
I understand the concept that a crafter charging "only" fifteen percent on top of the nominal cost of an item seems to be a bargain when compared to the cost at a magic shop.
But that's not an accurate comparison. First of all, it's absolutely incorrect for the crafter to claim that you are getting a "discount." In fact you are the ONLY source of profit in the game world, and the crafter not only isn't selling it to you for LESS, the crafter is actually selling it to you for MORE than they could sell it to any other person on the planet.
Stop. Just stop.
If the crafter wizard wants to stop adventuring and become a purveyor of fine magical wares, then he can do so.
/ the reason NPC's don't pay retail is because - wait for it - they're retailers too! See how that works?
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Except that's outright metagaming AD.
Adventurer's don't have any concept of not being able to make a profit from an NPC. That's rules, not internal world workings.
As far as the adventurer's are concerned, they are just trying to get rid of the gear quickly and are thus taking a loss when dealing with NPCs.
It IS absolutely fair AND TRUE for them to tell their fellow PCs that they are getting a discount, because as far as the WHOLE WORLD IS CONCERNED, they are.
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It IS absolutely fair AND TRUE for them to tell their fellow PCs that they are getting a discount, because as far as the WHOLE WORLD IS CONCERNED, they are.
QFT - and it kinda hurts to agree with RD and stuff.
Except that's outright metagaming AD.
Adventurer's don't have any concept of not being able to make a profit from an NPC. That's rules, not internal world workings.
As far as the adventurer's are concerned, they are just trying to get rid of the gear quickly and are thus taking a loss when dealing with NPCs.
It IS absolutely fair AND TRUE for them to tell their fellow PCs that they are getting a discount, because as far as the WHOLE WORLD IS CONCERNED, they are.
RD, you and I have exactly opposite understanding of "metagaming."
If my character finds a sword he KNOWS he can only sell it for 1/2 it's value. He KNOWS that is the limit the market will bear.
So why would he pay more for that from his party member? He KNOWS the party member can't sell it for any more.
This is not metagaming. It's fundamental game economics that every game character experiences from their first attempt to sell items for gold.
YOU are metagaming. You are suggesting that the player character somehow is reacting to a world that doesn't exist for them. A world with normal market economics. That's why you THINK it's a bargain. An actual player character would realize the difference IMMEDIATELY.
If my character finds a sword he KNOWS he can only sell it for 1/2 it's value. He KNOWS that is the limit the market will bear
How does he know he's getting half value? Do all your characters have Appraise or something?
It IS absolutely fair AND TRUE for them to tell their fellow PCs that they are getting a discount, because as far as the WHOLE WORLD IS CONCERNED, they are.QFT - and it kinda hurts to agree with RD and stuff.
You can quote for truth all you like. That doesn't make it true.
The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price. There is no difference between crafters selling items they MADE and other party members selling items they LOOTED.
PCs realize this. They understand that nobody can sell magic items for full price except magic shops. The know that the crafter can't sell their items for any more than 1/2 price to anyone but their party members.
Let me ask you this. Let's say the party kills an ogre and the fighter grabs the ogre's magic mace. The cleric says "I want that." Are you OK with the fighter saying "Sure, if you give me fifteen percent comission.!"
Fine with you?
The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price.
But how do they know?
The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price.But how do they know?
The only true way to know (in game), what AD is not taking into account, is an appraise check. They make the check, they know the value and can sell at half price. They fail by 5, they know the value to within 20% accuracy. They fail by more than 5, GM's discretion as to what to tell them the value is.
The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price.But how do they know?
load, that's the point. They only know the economy they experience.. In the economy they experience, nobody can sell magic items for more than 1/2 price except magic shops. There is no "discount magic supply" shop with bargains of the day.
They know that if the crafter makes an item, they can only sell it for 1/2 price.
I am ignoring the exploits available now for crafters to take traits that allow them to make items at less than 1/2 price. But the same concept applies.
The PCs KNOW that they are getting screwed. The playeris just pretending that there is some connection with real world economies. That only exists in the player's mind. Actual PCs know that the crafter is marking up the item just for them.
The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price.But how do they know?load, that's the point. They only know the economy they experience.. In the economy they experience, nobody can sell magic items for more than 1/2 price except magic shops. There is no "discount magic supply" shop with bargains of the day.
They know that if the crafter makes an item, they can only sell it for 1/2 price.
I am ignoring the exploits available now for crafters to take traits that allow them to make items at less than 1/2 price. But the same concept applies.
The PCs KNOW that they are getting screwed. The playeris just pretending that there is some connection with real world economies. That only exists in the player's mind. Actual PCs know that the crafter is marking up the item just for them.
What you call a markup, I would certainly call a markdown. And, unless every char trains appraise, they have no idea what the actual cost is.
The only true way to know (in game), what AD is not taking into account, is an appraise check. They make the check, they know the value and can sell at half price. They fail by 5, they know the value to within 20% accuracy. They fail by more than 5, GM's discretion as to what to tell them the value is.The market economy of the game world is an artificial economy. PCs realize IMMEDIATELY that they can only sell magic items for 1/2 price.But how do they know?
And so it is not true that PCs always know what the player knows.
The PC that does have Appraise, knows that A.) the local magic shop doesn't have the magic belt that he wants, B.) that it retails for 4k and C.) that his crafter companion will make the item for him at a total price of 2.2k.
So he knows he's getting a deal. Funny thing, the PC who doesn't have Appraise would recognize that as a deal as well.
The only one who sees an inequity is the meta-gamer, and he just wants the cheapest deal he can get.
The crafter Wizard has two choices, really.
He can make commissioned items for his party @ 10% + cost, or he can stop adventuring, become a merchant instead, and sell his wares at full retail. I bet his companions know that as well.
/ what would be interesting is if the crafter Wizard approached merchants and commissioned items for them at cost + X%.
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My take on the reason PCs can only sell for half is simple. They are selling it to a pawn shop.
Real world: I am selling my shiny thingamajig. I can go to a pawn shop and get a fraction of it...maybe half, maybe more, maybe less. On the other hand if I take the major time to sell it properly I can get full asking price for it.
This is what I see PCs doing. They are dumping equipment in the most expedient way possible and as a result they are taking a major loss on the equipment. IF they were to get into the retail magic item buisiness they would make alot more money but it could take months or years for an item to sell.
- Gauss
My take on the reason PCs can only sell for half is simple. They are selling it to a pawn shop.
Real world: I am selling my shiny thingamajig. I can go to a pawn shop and get a fraction of it...maybe half, maybe more, maybe less. On the other hand if I take the major time to sell it properly I can get full asking price for it.
This is what I see PCs doing. They are dumping equipment in the most expedient way possible and as a result they are taking a major loss on the equipment. IF they were to get into the retail magic item buisiness they would make alot more money but it could take months or years for an item to sell.
- Gauss
Pawn shop is one way to look at a magic item shop. They buy used items.. polish them up nice and sell it at a profit. They make money because they buy low and sell high.
-This train of thought got me thinking. Lets take a look at this a from a different perspective:
Suppose that shop guy had someone in looking for a magic belt but he did not have it for him. Now crafter guy comes in and sells some things, and shop guy says: "Hey, you can make magic belts? How bout you make me a belt so I can sell it to the guy who was in here earlier looking for that item."
By RAW you couldn't sell to the shop for more than cost, but realistically, wouldn't you expect to be paid to provide your services to the shop guy?
If my party is treating me as thier personal consignment shop, I would expect some compensation for my efforts.
By RAW you couldn't sell to the shop for more than cost, but realistically, wouldn't you expect to be paid to provide your services to the shop guy?
By the RAW, the crafter whips out Diplomacy and works a deal to make the belt for a profit.