a 1% overcharge is 10 gp/day, which is what you'd pay a professional craftsman of great skill and rarity for his time.
That IS a fair price. All of the other characters should be able to go out and make that amount in their downtime, too.
==+Aelryinth
Thats the number I suggested around page 12 or so of this thread. And is indeed fair price for a skilled craftsman. I would also request as a crafter that consumeables be paid with party money. Party discusses what consumeables are necesary of course.
This of course is under the assumption that everything is divided equally, yet downtime is for personal use.
I really don't see an issue. If I'm fighter and the wizard will make me a sword at +10% over their cost then who am to complain. I mean I want +2 sword and the guy in the market is selling it for 8000 gp, the wizard says he can do it for 5000 gp. I'm going to go with wizard, I'm saving 3000 gp that way. I see no reason in role playing sense to get upset with that. I'm fighter and I don't know how it cost to enchant a sword, all I know is the wizard is doing it cheaper. It would be meta gaming to claim the wizard is ripping off by charging me 5000 gp when it's only costing him 4000 gp. As far as my character know maybe it's different for every wizard and the better you are the cheaper it is.see my above post, and then look at this page or the last one, you will see why it is that way instead of making me post the math again
This isn't about math, it's about metagaming. You as PC know the cost is 50% but you character mostly doesn't know that. All they know is they are getting better deal from a crafting party member than from the merchant in town.
If you find out the as character that wizard made a little profit off you then roleplay it out. But honestly if you got +2 sword for 4400 gp instead of 8000 do you really have much to complain about.
In real life I don't get upset with my friend who's plumber charging me more than cost to fix my pipes and if he comes in cheaper than the competition by giving me a deal I'm happy. I'm not upset that he made a little money off me, better he make it than his competition especially if I'm getting better deal as well. It's win win.
Unless I missed something in it (which is certainly possible) your scenario is that the crafter decides the group needs something and then uses the 10% recoup to pay himself back for what he thinks the group needs.This is one of your recurrent ideas apparently. "Somehow" the crafter force the group or the other party member to buy what he craft.
In my experience a crafter normally has a list of request he can't complete unless there is a very long downtime.
If he has made something because he wanted to make it there is no reason for the other members to pay him or buy the item. If, on the other hand, the barbarian his badgering him for a better sword I don't see why he should make it for free.Sure, if he is crafting "on the road" what the party will use in the next adventure a surcharge isn't needed or welcome, but that is no the situation in he OP or most groups. When crafting on the road the other party members are (hopefully) all doing something useful while the crafter enchant, so it is a equal trade.
If during downtime one is working and the other partying that work should be rewarded.I don't see any real improvement in your position from the first 6 pages.
Maybe in your group, the barbarian is alawys badgering the crafter. I dunno. I'm not in your group.
In our group, the crafter makes stuff for himself, then actively bugs people if he has free time. "hey, do you need an upgrade". "yes but i can't afford it yet." "ok'
*turns to the rogue" "hey, do you need an upgrade?"
I believe one character asked to be put "in the que" so to speak, when the crafter made it clear he was willing to craft for folks. He makes scrolls which he uses in combat, he's upgraded the rogue's great sword, the fighter's bastard sword.. heck I dunno what all.
He didn't have craft rod so I just bought one. No problem. he hasn't made anything for me yet- but so far I don't have the need. If I get the need, and he has the time, I have no doubt he'll make it.
I suppose if someone was a tool about it and started trying to force him to upgrade their item when he was otherwise engaged, there would be an issue..
But currently there isn't. The wizard has down time and *wants* to fill it by crafting so we can get more out of our coin- as a group.
I have very little need for scrolls as a Witch- mostly I just use my hexes in combat anyway. When the rogue acked if i could make him some scrolls I passed him my spell list and made him the scrolls he wanted. I don't even know what they were- to be honest. He had the gold, he did the math and calculated the time.
Does our wizard charge? Did I charge the rogue?
Nope.
No need to.
It comes back around to:
Does the caster just get to tack on 10% to anything he crafts just because he's The Man who took a crafting feat, and that means he gets 10% extra? No.
Absent *some other factor* (Like the group being a bunch of jerks) he doesn't. The feat doesn't net him any more of the party loot than any other feat he could have taken.
The OP:
do i get to charge 10%, my group had a fit.
Some folks: Never.
Others: Always.
Evolution:
Some folks. Sometimes, but hopefully the group isn't a bunch of jerks so it doesn't come to that. If it does- find a new group.
Others: Always. The feat is so dang useful he deserves the 10% just for taking the feat.
Some people have changed groups, othes have left entirely, some new folks have come into the convo.. but basically thats where things are right now.
cept some of the new guys are still stuck on the arguments made for "they never get 10%" instead of moving on to "only when the party are jerks" line of reasoning.
Absent the party being a bunch of jerks, the crafter doesn't get to take a fee for using his feat on their behalf. If the group is a bunch of jerks the crafter is better off getting back in the car and leaving. But as a last resort, I would concede that charging them out the nose for being a jerk might be a solution.
-S
Yeah, but you'd get miffed if you were debugging his hard drive and re-installing his software, which also takes hours of your time, only to find that he's charging you 10x the rate for a professional set of skills...which is what is happening here with the crafter, because someone seems to think their skills are worth 1000 gp/day.
==Aelryinth
I really don't see an issue. If I'm fighter and the wizard will make me a sword at +10% over their cost then who am to complain. I mean I want +2 sword and the guy in the market is selling it for 8000 gp, the wizard says he can do it for 5000 gp. I'm going to go with wizard, I'm saving 3000 gp that way. I see no reason in role playing sense to get upset with that. I'm fighter and I don't know how it cost to enchant a sword, all I know is the wizard is doing it cheaper. It would be meta gaming to claim the wizard is ripping off by charging me 5000 gp when it's only costing him 4000 gp. As far as my character know maybe it's different for every wizard and the better you are the cheaper it is.see my above post, and then look at this page or the last one, you will see why it is that way instead of making me post the math againThis isn't about math, it's about metagaming. You as PC know the cost is 50% but you character mostly doesn't know that. All they know is they are getting better deal from a crafting party member than from the merchant in town.
If you find out the as character that wizard made a little profit off you then roleplay it out. But honestly if you got +2 sword for 4400 gp instead of 8000 do you really have much to complain about.
In real life I don't get upset with my friend who's plumber charging me more than cost to fix my pipes and if he comes in cheaper than the competition by giving me a deal I'm happy. I'm not upset that he made a little money off me, better he make it than his competition especially if I'm getting better deal as well. It's win win.
My character is 13th level. He's spent the past 13 levels as the party loot counter. (literally. I keep track of all the loot, and I make sure it gets sold, and the cash distributed).
Why is it metagaming for him to know that every single longsword +1 we've sold, has sold for the exact same amount. Every. Single. One.he's been selling items for the group since he came to the group. Its been his job. Now suddenly, its metagaming that he knows the cost of the sword to buy and sell? he's been dealing with merchants (in this chaacter's instance, for the past 4 levels assuming *he never bought a single item in the market* before he joined the game.)
Your characters are adventurers. They are in and out of the market all the time. Saying they don't know the relative value of an item once properly identified is insulting to the characters.
"Your character is in the business of looting and selling items in order to buy others. Its totally metagaming for your character to have any idea what those items are worth though, sorry."
Unless your PC's have the memory of a fruit fly or something, they have every expectation of knowing exactly how the market works. They are in it all the time!
you *might* have an argument for a 1st level character- but that changes very very soon. They start rolling goblin and selling the loot and getting into the market, they start knowing what things are worth and what to expect from their stuff and what they can buy with it.
Its not remotely metagaming for the folks in the business of rolling critters and selling the loot to know what that loot is worth in the market. Not when by RAW that cost is fixed.
If your DM is varying that- thats fine. But that makes it a houserule.
-S
We don't calculate the wealth of each object and then use that to distribute gold so that everyone gets the same "WBL" chunk out of every thing we loot.
If someone needs something, they get it. When everything is sold and divided up, everyone gets a share. Sometimes the fighter gets a new toy, sometimes the cleric, sometimes the wizard, etc. It all rolls around in the end. Most of what we have is still the basic Xmas tree items with some variation. (my guy has 3 mm rods instead of some of the Xmas tree stuff- but he bought 'em all, none were found/crafted).
Most...
So you play very similar to the way we play. items are divided out according to who can use them.. the loot is sold, and divided equally among the party.
-Now a lot of people mention how skewed the WBL will get if the crafter is charging people... (I cant remember if you are one of the people arguing this point, but I dont think it was you.)
The way you and I play.. WBL is already getting skewed. As a crafter and a wizard, I don't charge for consumeables, and I dont generally get the best items, (they are reserved for frontline fighters). I make at cost anything that the party as a whole requests. But I do charge for individual items because it allows me to be competitive in WBL.
Trust me, with the consumeables I make and the disparity I get in loot items, I am most certainly in the red even with charging the party.
You know, I don't think even NPC's are making 1000 gp a day. Magic item shops are expensive to run the security most be extreme considering what is being sold. I have just started a thread on the subject.
We don't calculate the wealth of each object and then use that to distribute gold so that everyone gets the same "WBL" chunk out of every thing we loot.
If someone needs something, they get it. When everything is sold and divided up, everyone gets a share. Sometimes the fighter gets a new toy, sometimes the cleric, sometimes the wizard, etc. It all rolls around in the end. Most of what we have is still the basic Xmas tree items with some variation. (my guy has 3 mm rods instead of some of the Xmas tree stuff- but he bought 'em all, none were found/crafted).
Most...So you play very similar to the way we play. items are divided out according to who can use them.. the loot is sold, and divided equally among the party.
-
Now a lot of people mention how skewed the WBL will get if the crafter is charging people... (I cant remember if you are one of the people arguing this point, but I dont think it was you.)The way you and I play.. WBL is already getting skewed. As a crafter and a wizard, I don't charge for consumeables, and I dont generally get the best items, (they are reserved for frontline fighters). I make at cost anything that the party as a whole requests. But I do charge for individual items because it allows me to be competitive in WBL.
Trust me, with the consumeables I make and the disparity I get in loot items, I am most certainly in the red even with charging the party.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "the best items". Sure, amulets of nat armor or rings or pro go to them. they are the ones getting swung at.
My witch has actually had a creature attack him maybe.. I dunno.. 5 imes in 4 levels? I stay in the back, stay out of the way, keep away from mobs that might try to hurt me. Let the fighter have the ring of protection, I don't want it.
I do have a good cloak of resistance. Also a good headband of int, a belt of con.. I've spent a good chunk of my cash on metamagic rods.
I'd say folks get the gear they need, rather than saying the best goes to the frontline fighters.
the gear best suited to them, goes to them.. the stuff best suited for the casters, goes to the casters, and whatnot.
We just see no need to funnel money from one character to another. The only purpose it serves is to weaken your buddy to strengthen yourself. Thats just not how we roll.
-S
edit: rod, not wand. I don't even own a wand.
Ok, last night we had our final talk about all of this, and i tought you might be interested in what all of this resulted, at least for me. As i said my decision was to not charghe the 10% and ask that the first church built in the city was one of abadar.
If anyone want to know the gm think that i'am right, plus another player after reading this thread and talking to me changed idea.
Even if we talked about it via our forum when we started talking about it in "real life" a guy went REALLY emotional at some point and started making some petty argoument, it requiered all of my self control to not start a bad quarrel with him (a friend!) if it hadn't been for the gm and other guy that like me wanted to settle this "in peace" i think that our gaming group will have been over by now. Luckly we avoided it but still we never come to understand each other, it's kinda of sad.
And, i can't stress this enough, we are not strangers, we are friends.
From this experience i learned that:
-It take a VERY MATURE group of person to handle this kind of things nicely, and i'm not talking about the average mature group. In most case the gm should just forbid this feats or decide for the players the rules to use them, this suck; but it's better that ruining the game.
-People get emotional about money even in games, even about the "work" concept in a minor degree.
The modern economical and working system can probably be partially blamed for this but this is not the thread to discuss this.
-NEVER EVER transform a pg issue in a player issue and kill anyone who try to do this.
-It's easy to be selfless saint with the pg and the money of the others
The result of all of this for me is that now i'll change pg since i HATE having to play a pg that have to change his behaviuor for this kind of things, plus everytime i think of "him" i also think at the whole chaos this created and i really lost the "feeling" with this pg.
You'll soon see me on this boards asking advices for a good sorcerer :)
I still think everything i said in this thread; i'm really glad that it became such an interesting discussion (aside the petty discussions and even worse behaviours).
I guess it depends on what you mean by "the best items". Sure, amulets of nat armor or rings or pro go to them. they are the ones getting swung at.
My witch has actually had a creature attack him maybe.. I dunno.. 5 imes in 4 levels? I stay in the back, stay out of the way, keep away from mobs that might try to hurt me. Let the fighter have the ring of protection, I don't want it.
I do have a good cloak of resistance. Also a good headband of int, a belt of con.. I've spent a good chunk of my cash on metamagic wands.
I'd say folks get the gear...
The games we play in, the loot availible is generally off of whomever you kill.. Most of those are martial type chars meaning that martial magic items are the most common to drop. So yeah, the martial chars generally get more of the common drop items, and I'm perfectly ok with letting them have the +2 amulet and taking thier +1 to boost me. And let the fighter have his full plate drop, what good does it do me.. I shouldnt be getting hit while I'm standing in the back anyway.
You said you spent a good chunk of your cash on metamagic rods.. That implies it was not a looted item.. that would be money from your share of sold loot.
The nature of loot drops is that the most common items are ones that can apply to everyone (like a ring of proc). As casters, we gladly allow the fighter to take the higher item because he needs it more. We also create scrolls and consumeables to be ready for those oddball situations that may come up. When you calculate it all up, you'll find that you fall way behind the rest of the party in WBL.
The difference here, is that I find it fair to get back some of my losses, while you let your party take advantage of you.
How am I a troll? Hiring a guard for the shop would be worth as little as 3sp a day (maybe up to a few gp a day).
It's simply a fair exchange of services (though admittedly, a little underhanded in its presentation). 8,000gp sword = 8,000gp worth of guard duty.
If the fighter in question was high level (and thus "worth more") then I might remove something like 25gp from his debt at the end of each day. Towards the the end of (310 days later) he gets his sword.
Exchanging services in similar fashion is common practice both in the real world and in fantasy literature. To say and act otherwise is to break the fourth wall of roleplaying.
Oh, they definitely aren't.
Remember how little it costs to live for a month in PF.
Then realize that a professional who can hit a DC 30 on his checks makes at best ~10 gold a day. That's someone who can routinely do a +20 to a check.
So, there isn't that much gold running around. There just isn't.
PF lore backs this. 50k gp for the Sun ORchard elxir? For an adventurer, that's pocket change. Yet the amount of killing that takes place over it is VERY non-trivial. It's enough money that three vials/year basically supports the whole country it's made in!
And yet a dedicated crafter can make 1000 gp/day, 365,000 gp/year, by himself?
No.
In all likelihood, magic items represent huge costs of capital for the makers. They are going to be massive targets for theft. There aren't many people who can afford them, or would even really want them for everyday use. They are money that is tied up not making more money.
A SUn BLADE is worth the same as the Sun Orchard Elixir. How about that?
Someone who makes a magic item is taking a huge risk. They have to find someone with enough money who wants it, who will buy it, and they have to protect against it being stolen in the meantime. They have to pay for protection and security, and hold on until someone has the cash to part with. Upgrading would work the same way...they have to find someone willing to pay, and then ration their money until they find someone else to work for.
==Aelryinth
I guess it depends on what you mean by "the best items". Sure, amulets of nat armor or rings or pro go to them. they are the ones getting swung at.
My witch has actually had a creature attack him maybe.. I dunno.. 5 imes in 4 levels? I stay in the back, stay out of the way, keep away from mobs that might try to hurt me. Let the fighter have the ring of protection, I don't want it.
I do have a good cloak of resistance. Also a good headband of int, a belt of con.. I've spent a good chunk of my cash on metamagic wands.
I'd say folks get the gear...
The games we play in, the loot availible is generally off of whomever you kill.. Most of those are martial type chars meaning that martial magic items are the most common to drop. So yeah, the martial chars generally get more of the common drop items, and I'm perfectly ok with letting them have the +2 amulet and taking thier +1 to boost me. And let the fighter have his full plate drop, what good does it do me.. I shouldnt be getting hit while I'm standing in the back anyway.
You said you spent a good chunk of your cash on metamagic rods.. That implies it was not a looted item.. that would be money from your share of sold loot.
The nature of loot drops is that the most common items are ones that can apply to everyone (like a ring of proc). As casters, we gladly allow the fighter to take the higher item because he needs it more. We also create scrolls and consumeables to be ready for those oddball situations that may come up. When you calculate it all up, you'll find that you fall way behind the rest of the party in WBL.
The difference here, is that I find it fair to get back some of my losses, while you let your party take advantage of you.
You are making an assumption that I never get drops. This isn't the case. I just choose to spend my wealth to get rods rather than than make use of something else. I've actively passed up items even when its my turn tog et it, because I think someone else can make better use of it.
And, I'm not the only one. That just how our party rolls. Two guys in the group use shields. They regularly discuss who needs it more when one drops.I'm not choosing to let anyone take advantage of me.
I'm choosing, every step of the way, to make the group the best group that it can be.
I have absolutely no reason to rob the rogue of his gold in order to make him scrolls that make him a better rogue. The wizard has no need to rob the fighter, rogue, cleric, or whoever to make them a better widget in order for them to be better at what they do.
The crafters aren't taking advantage of the others. The others aren't taking advantage of him. We are working as a cohesive whole. A group. A team. We're working together for our common goals. None of us are taking advantage of each other.
Your statement seems to be: most drops favor the melee so I'm taking 10% off the top to balance it.
I'd suggest instead: talk to the DM about a more proper loot drop distribution so that you get your share of it. The DM needs to fix that behind the screen, rather than your swiping your group's share of the gold to fix something that isn't their fault to begin with.
-S
Ok, last night we had our final talk about all of this, and i tought you might be interested in what all of this resulted, at least for me. As i said my decision was to not charghe the 10% and ask that the first church built in the city was one of abadar.
If anyone want to know the gm think that i'am right, plus another player after reading this thread and talking to me changed idea.
Even if we talked about it via our forum when we started talking about it in "real life" a guy went REALLY emotional at some point and started making some petty argoument, it requiered all of my self control to not start a bad quarrel with him (a friend!) if it hadn't been for the gm and other guy that like me wanted to settle this "in peace" i think that our gaming group will have been over by now. Luckly we avoided it but still we never come to understand each other, it's kinda of sad.
And, i can't stress this enough, we are not strangers, we are friends.
From this experience i learned that:
-It take a VERY MATURE group of person to handle this kind of things nicely, and i'm not talking about the average mature group. In most case the gm should just forbid this feats or decide for the players the rules to use them, this suck; but it's better that ruining the game.
-People get emotional about money even in games, even about the "work" concept in a minor degree.
The modern economical and working system can probably be partially blamed for this but this is not the thread to discuss this.
-NEVER EVER transform a pg issue in a player issue and kill anyone who try to do this.
-It's easy to be selfless saint with the pg and the money of the others
The result of all of this for me is that now i'll change pg since i HATE having to play a pg that have to change his behaviuor for this kind of things, plus everytime i think of "him" i also think at the whole chaos this created and i really lost the "feeling" with this pg.
You'll soon see me on this boards asking advices for a good sorcerer :)
I still think...
I'm sorry that this damaged your relationship with your friend... If he truley feels that strongly about it, then do Not charge for items. It's a game and not worth the agony this is causing. If it bothers you to not charge... then ask the GM to retrain the feat/s.
<sarcasm> My advice for building your Sorc. Take the craft wonderous items feat! </sarcasm>
How am I a troll? Hiring a guard for the shop would be worth as little as 3sp a day (maybe up to a few gp a day).
It's simply a fair exchange of services (though admittedly, a little underhanded in its presentation). 8,000gp sword = 8,000gp worth of guard duty.
If the fighter in question was high level (and thus "worth more") then I might remove something like 25gp from his debt at the end of each day. Towards the the end of (310 days later) he gets his sword.
Exchanging services in similar fashion is common practice both in the real world and in fantasy literature. To say and act otherwise is to break the fourth wall of roleplaying.
You're making the assumption that your labor is worth 8k. It's not.
You're making an assumption that his labor is worth 25 gp. It's not...it's worth what he's giving up, which is adventuring, which is worth THOUSANDS of gold/day.
He's doing you a favor standing guard in his free time. You're doing him a favor making an item in your free time. you BOTH make money adventuring.
Your time is worth exactly the same thing.
Now, some pug off the street who does nothing else with his time? Sure, that might work. Even then, your time ain't worth a K/day.
===Aelryinth
How am I a troll? Hiring a guard for the shop would be worth as little as 3sp a day (maybe up to a few gp a day).
It's simply a fair exchange of services (though admittedly, a little underhanded in its presentation). 8,000gp sword = 8,000gp worth of guard duty.
If the fighter in question was high level (and thus "worth more") then I might remove something like 25gp from his debt at the end of each day. Towards the the end of (310 days later) he gets his sword.
Exchanging services in similar fashion is common practice both in the real world and in fantasy literature. To say and act otherwise is to break the fourth wall of roleplaying.
Well, in reality the fighter (and the rest of the group) would leave you to your shop, find a new wizard, and go off adventuring.
While you are content to play Merchans and Profit Margins, they are gonna go off and play D&D, roll some bad guys, fetch some loot, level up, and move on with the world. Two years later they are retiring on half a mill and you are still sitting there pretending to be making the fighter's sword. The fighter is saying "wizard who?" while kickin back in his tavern that he owns, sitting ona nice nest egg of cash and/or adventuring gear, telling stories to the younglings of his "good ole adventuring days".If your wizard wants to mind a store, you are playing the wrong game.
If you want to play NPC merchant, then don't be surprised when everyone else goes out to play PC Adventurer.
Groups tend to take care of this sort of abuse amongst themselves.
-S
How am I a troll? Hiring a guard for the shop would be worth as little as 3sp a day (maybe up to a few gp a day).
It's simply a fair exchange of services (though admittedly, a little underhanded in its presentation). 8,000gp sword = 8,000gp worth of guard duty.
If the fighter in question was high level (and thus "worth more") then I might remove something like 25gp from his debt at the end of each day. Towards the the end of (310 days later) he gets his sword.
Exchanging services in similar fashion is common practice both in the real world and in fantasy literature. To say and act otherwise is to break the fourth wall of roleplaying.
You're making the assumption that your labor is worth 8k. It's not.
You're making an assumption that his labor is worth 25 gp. It's not...it's worth what he's giving up, which is adventuring, which is worth THOUSANDS of gold/day.
He's doing you a favor standing guard in his free time. You're doing him a favor making an item in your free time. you BOTH make money adventuring.
Your time is worth exactly the same thing.
Now, some pug off the street who does nothing else with his time? Sure, that might work. Even then, your time ain't worth a K/day.
===Aelryinth
I'm inclined to agree that the two would make more money adventuring together than the sorts of games that I just described, but I assumed we were talking about down time, not adventuring time.
Gotta be clear on the context, mate.
|
If the group is dividing money evenly, sharing the spoils of adventure together, why charge for services? Does you character need the money that badly? Can't you just borrow for an item and then repay it?
the whole concept goes against playing as a group. if my group holds out stuff from me or charges me for services, that just inspires me to do the same. breeds unhealthy attitutes imho.
RD:
People are calling you trolling because you are largely ignoring what folks are saying and just posting as though you read the first 3 posts of the thread, and skipped the rest.
I don't think you are trolling- I just don't think you are reading the posts.
Folks aren't advancing the idea that the crafter is chained to a desk and gets no free time and gets no recompense for it.
They are advancing the idea that, when working on group things as a group, no one person gets to charge the others for it.
IF (caps intended) your character is being forced, chained to a desk, never any off time, to craft for the party then sure- charge them. Better yet, leave. Find a group that isn't a bunch of jerks.
Everyone gets down time. *every. One*. crafters included.
if they *choose* to use that to craft, thats their choice.
if they are being *forced* to craft in it, then you have issues.
As a whole, the thread has moved past the idea that the "no cost" folks are meaning "slave labor work 24/7 for our demands" and are more towards the
"no one gets to charge the party to use their feats for the party on party time".
And quite afew have agreed to that, if the party is working as a group not enslaving each other, that there is little need to charge each other for crafting, though some parties are Ok with being charged and have no problem with it.
-S
You are making an assumption that I never get drops. This isn't the case. I just choose to spend my wealth to get rods rather than than make use of something else. I've actively passed up items even when its my turn tog et it, because I think someone else can make better use of it.
And, I'm not the only one. That just how our party rolls. Two guys in the group use shields. They regularly discuss who needs it more when one drops.
I'm not choosing to let anyone take advantage of me.
I'm choosing, every step of the way, to make the group the best group that it can be.
I have absolutely no reason to rob the rogue of his gold in order to make him scrolls that make him a better rogue. The wizard has no need to rob the fighter, rogue, cleric, or whoever to make them a better widget in order for them to be better at what they do.The crafters aren't taking advantage of the others. The others aren't taking advantage of him. We are working as a cohesive whole. A group. A team. We're working together for our common goals. None of us are taking advantage of each other.
Your statement seems to be: most drops favor the melee so I'm taking 10% off the top to balance it.
I'd suggest instead: talk to the DM about a more proper loot drop distribution so that you get your share of it. The DM needs to fix that behind the screen, rather than your swiping your group's share of the gold to fix something that isn't their fault to begin with.
When you actively pass up items because you think another party memeber can make better use of it, then you are choosing to decrease your WBL while increasing the WBL of whomever takes the item. I assumed you get drops.. I do as well.. However, because we choose to let the higher items go to the party memebers, we are actively decreasing our WBL to make the rest of the party better. There is nothing wrong with doing that.
Items mean very little to me as a caster. I want to learn more spells, meaning I need to purchase scrolls to transcribe. We could do one of two things.
1) We can do what you suggest, which is to spend our loot distribution (which is balanced against us because our active role in letting others take better loot) on the scrolls to transcribe.
2) We can do what I suggest, which is to try to bring the WBL back a little more in our favor so that we can afford these spells.
All in all, the goal is to make the party better in general. And if you are being taking advantage of (willingly or not), then the party is weaker in not having a caster that is fully capable.
I'm looking for balance here. Obviously the most balanced approach is the equal for all. But, thats not how you or I play.
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If the group is dividing money evenly, sharing the spoils of adventure together, why charge for services? Does you character need the money that badly? Can't you just borrow for an item and then repay it?
the whole concept goes against playing as a group. if my group holds out stuff from me or charges me for services, that just inspires me to do the same. breeds unhealthy attitutes imho.
That pretty much accurately sums up one entire side of the argument.
The side that I agree with. :>-S
You are making an assumption that I never get drops. This isn't the case. I just choose to spend my wealth to get rods rather than than make use of something else. I've actively passed up items even when its my turn tog et it, because I think someone else can make better use of it.
And, I'm not the only one. That just how our party rolls. Two guys in the group use shields. They regularly discuss who needs it more when one drops.
I'm not choosing to let anyone take advantage of me.
I'm choosing, every step of the way, to make the group the best group that it can be.
I have absolutely no reason to rob the rogue of his gold in order to make him scrolls that make him a better rogue. The wizard has no need to rob the fighter, rogue, cleric, or whoever to make them a better widget in order for them to be better at what they do.The crafters aren't taking advantage of the others. The others aren't taking advantage of him. We are working as a cohesive whole. A group. A team. We're working together for our common goals. None of us are taking advantage of each other.
Your statement seems to be: most drops favor the melee so I'm taking 10% off the top to balance it.
I'd suggest instead: talk to the DM about a more proper loot drop distribution so that you get your share of it. The DM needs to fix that behind the screen, rather than your swiping your group's share of the gold to fix something that isn't their fault to begin with.
When you actively pass up items because you think another party memeber can make better use of it, then you are choosing to decrease your WBL while increasing the WBL of whomever takes the item. I assumed you get drops.. I do as well.. However, because we choose to let the higher items go to the party memebers, we are actively decreasing our WBL to make the rest of the party better. There is nothing wrong with doing that.
Items mean very little to me as a caster. I want to learn more spells, meaning I need to purchase scrolls to transcribe. We...
If you look at that single transaction: yes, I got hosed.
But that one event was just one event. Over the campaign, it evens out.The next super uber arcane item, I'll keep. Presumably there will be another. If not, I'll still get to choose the next item that either of us could benefit from: because he got that one.
We don't interparty balance on a micro-transaction level, its on the grander scale.
I benefit because I get the next awesome item. I *also* benefit every spell he casts, because that item was awesome for spell casters. Every single time he casts a spell with that item I benefit from it. I know how he rolls, and thats gonna be alot of spells.
Sure, his WBL is higher than mine now (in theory- maybe i have more, i have no idea) but I also don't care. The group got the best benefit from the item and thats more important than our relative WBL worth to each other.
Maybe the next item will be a +2 to hex DC's (not likely lol the DM already hates my hexes!) but if one does drop instead of a +2 Dc to spells (or whatever it was) then I'll get it instead. Or maybe it'll be a rod of empower or a robe of the archmage or something.
Regardless: he knows he got a good item, and next time I'll get the good item. Just like the fighter and cleric trade who gets the shield when it drops, or the rings of protection and such that go around the melee guys.
We're not worried about any one single moment of a transaction, we're looking at it as a whole throughout the campaign. And it should even out over time.
If not, thats an issue to take up with the DM. Not by the PC's reaching their fingers into the pockets of the other PC's to remove gold.
-S
wait... what? so you're not saying that you get loot off of only what you kill right?
again, i think your party should chip in for those consumables unless its just an extra fireball or something that only the crafter can use to only help himself.
Well, looting off of just what you kill is not the only way. But it is probably the most common way.
Yeah, i supposed a more equitable arrangement would be to pool all consumeables. It's just not how our group does it.
I've conceded the point that if everything is divided 100% equally across the board.. crafting for free makes sense.
Anything else, requires some level of compensation in an effort to even it up
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5 PC's all sit down at level 10 and compare their WBL.
1) is 15% under.
2) is 10% under
3) is on par
4) is 5% over
5) is 10% over.
You have two guys a combined 25% under and two guys a combined 15% over.
Whats the solution? Do they start tossing gold into the pot and spread it back out to even everyone out?
They could.
They could also ask the DM to modify the next few sessions of loot to allow it to even back out. Maybe fewer of the things guy 4 and 5 need- bout the same amount of things 3 needs and more things for guy 1 and 2.
Or
"hey DM, we're kinda wonky on our loot distribution.. would you consider tossing in more pearls of power, scrolls, wands, staves (and such) for the casters and fewer swords and heavy armors? We're getting kinda lop sided on the loot".
You aren't asking for more or less- you are asking for the DM to start shifting the distribution so that its more even.
Thats much preferable to having one guy start charging others for services or to start taking gold from one guy to another because the last time that dropped was a set of full plate.
Some groups do loot distribution by total gold count. (i.e. add up all the cost of all items + gold, divide by group, and you "buy" your loot from the party pool). This does keep things more even. Its just alot more book keeping and math than any group I've ever been with has ever been willing to do.
If you need it, take it. If no one wants it, sell it.
Wands of HP get into the "group pot" as do potions of healing, everything else is kept, or is sold and divided as gold.
Doesn't make our system good/right/best it just makes it the best for us.
-S
When you actively pass up items because you think another party memeber can make better use of it, then you are choosing to decrease your WBL while increasing the WBL of whomever takes the item. I assumed you get drops.. I do as well.. However, because we choose to let the higher items go to the party memebers, we are actively decreasing our WBL to make the rest of the party better. There is nothing wrong with doing that.Items mean very little to me as a caster. I want to learn more spells, meaning I need to purchase scrolls to transcribe. We...
you think you deserve more money because you're a class that costs money to get more spells?
I know in my game i would help you get more spells, but that's cause i'm a nice guy and i want you to be more powerful. however, I assume that you'd show me the same kindness
your spells count against your WBL, that's the price you pay for unlimited arcana. buy a blessed book, see if you can copy from other spellbooks and you'll not have the problem of needing to buy scrolls
If you read what I said before just a few posts ago, I said WBL is sqewed against me do to uneven loot distribution and consumeables. The charge for crafting is an attemtpt to bring WBL back in alignment. I never said I "deserve more" than anyone else.
If you read what I said before just a few posts ago, I said WBL is sqewed against me do to uneven loot distribution and consumeables. The charge for crafting is an attemtpt to bring WBL back in alignment. I never said I "deserve more" than anyone else.
When you actively pass up items because you think another party memeber can make better use of it, then you are choosing to decrease your WBL while increasing the WBL of whomever takes the item. I assumed you get drops.. I do as well.. However, because we choose to let the higher items go to the party memebers, we are actively decreasing our WBL to make the rest of the party better. There is nothing wrong with doing that.Items mean very little to me as a caster. I want to learn more spells, meaning I need to purchase scrolls to transcribe. We...
you think you deserve more money because you're a class that costs money to get more spells?
I know in my game i would help you get more spells, but that's cause i'm a nice guy and i want you to be more powerful. however, I assume that you'd show me the same kindness
your spells count against your WBL, that's the price you pay for unlimited arcana. buy a blessed book, see if you can copy from other spellbooks and you'll not have the problem of needing to buy scrolls
I understand what you are saying, Grecko, but my preferred solution would be to chat with the DM about it rather than to charge the group.
What you have isn't an issue with your party- but a problem with how your DM gives out loot. If he's clearly being preferential to the "front liners" (or clerics, rogues, or whoever) then that needs to be discussed.Its an out-of-game issue not an in-game issue and, at least imo, should be addressed as such.
-S
dragonfire8974: 1 day = 1000gp. If you are making a 2000gp that is normally 2 days = 2000gp. When halving the time you are making a 2000gp item in 1 day...thus 1day = 2000gp when halving the time. My statement is just a different way of looking at it. - Gaussso as i've said before many times, a crafter should be able to find something to be able to craft 1k a day due to either the help of the party or with the help of a ring of sustenance. maybe both
but yes, it is true that a way to limit crafting is to not have adventures take long. but usually there's travel time, investigation, and usually that's a good chunk of time. sometimes you need more than 1 crafter to craft everything, or you can get around the limitation by taking leadership with a summoner cohort with the feats of the eidolon also for magic item creation.
A ring of sustenance does not help crafting in any way shape or form. The rules on page 549 are pretty clear. You do anything other than sitting in a 'fairly quiet, comfortable, well lit place to work' and you do NOT get your 8hours a day of crafting. 8hours a day is your maximum thus a ring of sustenance does not help. If the caster is out adventuring he spends 4 hours a day maximum of which 2 hours a day count. Additionally, when not using the adventuring clause you must spend 4 hours in a single block. Ie: your relaxed period of crafting (8hours) can be spent in 2 four hour blocks while your adventuring period of crafting is broken up into whenever you have time.
A crafter does not 'need' any other person. Other persons can supply spells and abilities OTHER than craft feats but the other persons are not required since the DC can be increased by 5 for each ability not present. Note: spell trigger and spell completion items cannot get around the spell requirement. Other people cannot speed up the crafting process though.
In the end you are correct that adventuring slows down item creation. Which is why sandbox adventures where time is not an issue creates problems. - Gauss
We're not worried about any one single moment of a transaction, we're looking at it as a whole throughout the campaign. And it should even out over time.
If not, thats an issue to take up with the DM. Not by the PC's reaching their fingers into the pockets of the other PC's to remove gold.
It may even out over time.. it may not. However, the more active role you take in ensuring the rest of the party gets the good drops, the further your WBL will decline. Is that one or two awesome items going to make up for it? It's doubtful, since there will be 3-6 similar awesome items that just dont benifit you at all..
.In the grand scheme of things.. When we accept that WBL will become skewed either way, does it really matter who gets more? Probably not. But I certainly prefer a balanced party over a Skewed one. My method is just one way of ensuring that balance. Asking the DM for more loot suitable to you would be begging, and to me, if I was another party memeber, I would find it more reprehensible to ask for DM favorship than said crafter "farming" the party, as people have called it.
5 PC's all sit down at level 10 and compare their WBL.
1) is 15% under.
2) is 10% under
3) is on par
4) is 5% over
5) is 10% over.You have two guys a combined 25% under and two guys a combined 15% over.
Whats the solution? Do they start tossing gold into the pot and spread it back out to even everyone out?
They could.
They could also ask the DM to modify the next few sessions of loot to allow it to even back out. Maybe fewer of the things guy 4 and 5 need- bout the same amount of things 3 needs and more things for guy 1 and 2.-S
<I shortened>
As a DM I periodically (every 2-3 levels or so) get an inventory from the players. I then confirm inventory with my own spreadsheet which I maintain on what I think players have (there are usually minor discrepancies). Then I modify the treasure to balance things out (not 'precisely' but usually within 1000gp levels 1-5 and somewhere under 5% thereafter). Additionally the players use the 'treasure buy' system of treasure splits so it keeps descrepancies down. - Gauss
If the group is dividing money evenly, sharing the spoils of adventure together, why charge for services? Does you character need the money that badly? Can't you just borrow for an item and then repay it?
the whole concept goes against playing as a group. if my group holds out stuff from me or charges me for services, that just inspires me to do the same. breeds unhealthy attitutes imho.
So, your other 3 or 4 teammates come to you and say "please make me this item that will cost you 2.5k gp in materials." You're going to say okay and give out 40k gp worth of items for nothing and absorbing the 10k gp hit? That's very generous, indeed. That's a third of your wealth you've just given away by level 8.
A ring of sustenance does not help crafting in any way shape or form. The rules on page 549 are pretty clear. You do anything other than sitting in a 'fairly quiet, comfortable, well lit place to work' and you do NOT get your 8hours a day of crafting. 8hours a day is your maximum thus a ring of sustenance does not help. If the caster is out adventuring he spends 4 hours a day maximum of which 2 hours a day count. Additionally, when not using the adventuring clause you must spend 4 hours in a single block. Ie: your relaxed period of crafting (8hours) can be spent in 2 four hour blocks while your adventuring period of crafting is broken up into whenever you have time.
A crafter does not 'need' any other person. Other persons can supply spells and abilities OTHER than craft feats but the other persons are not required since the DC can be increased by 5 for each ability not present. Note: spell trigger and spell completion items cannot get around the spell requirement. Other people cannot speed up the crafting process though.
In the end you are correct that adventuring slows down item creation. Which is why sandbox adventures where time is not an issue creates problems. - Gauss
ring of sustenance just helps with the limitation of time in a day, which really isn't a limitation, but i just like the extra 6 hours a day i get with the ring because you only need 2hrs of sleep instead of 8 to reprepare spells (though you can do that only 1/24 hours still).
keep reading those item creations rules. a wizard can rush the time it takes to create an item by increasing the DC +5 to turn the 8hrs a day into 4 hours a day for 1000g worth of work. please don't ignore this again, i've specifically typed this for you 3 times, and for other people many more times.
adventuring doesn't slow down item creation if you're a creator worth their salt. the idea that you'll gain wealth faster than you can create items is what i meant as time being a limiting factor, thus the idea of leadership,...
Yes, you have typed this to me 3 times but that doesn't make it true. Page 549 paragraph 6 of the core rulebook states: "The caster can work up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush this process by working longer each day,..." Accelerating it does not change this limit. Accelerating it just means you get 1000gp worth of work in 4hours. In an 8 hour day that is 2000gp worth of work done in 8 hours. A ring of sustenance does not change that you can ONLY do 8 hours of work per day. A ring of sustenance does not change that.
I might be swayed that with a ring of sustenance you can craft 'while adventuring' when others rest but that would be situational depending on the environment (open camp I would consider distracting, being in a Rope Trick would not). It still wouldnt change the 8 hour per day limit. Again, other crafters do not help you violate the 8hour limit nor do they allow you to craft more than 2000gp in an 8hour period (assuming you are using accelerated crafting) although they can craft things on thier own.
- Gauss
We're not worried about any one single moment of a transaction, we're looking at it as a whole throughout the campaign. And it should even out over time.
If not, thats an issue to take up with the DM. Not by the PC's reaching their fingers into the pockets of the other PC's to remove gold.
It may even out over time.. it may not. However, the more active role you take in ensuring the rest of the party gets the good drops, the further your WBL will decline. Is that one or two awesome items going to make up for it? It's doubtful, since there will be 3-6 similar awesome items that just dont benifit you at all..
.
In the grand scheme of things.. When we accept that WBL will become skewed either way, does it really matter who gets more? Probably not. But I certainly prefer a balanced party over a Skewed one. My method is just one way of ensuring that balance. Asking the DM for more loot suitable to you would be begging, and to me, if I was another party memeber, I would find it more reprehensible to ask for DM favorship than said crafter "farming" the party, as people have called it.
I accept that for any given particular moment in the game someone may have more or less than another.
I disasgree that micro-managing treasure is the answer. I also disagree that its always the crafter thats behind, or that the crafter gets to skim off the top to correct said imbalance- even if it does exist.If the Wizard get the robe of Wizard Ubersauce and I make him fork over 10k to me becuase of it, and then the next critter has the Robe of Witch Ubersauce and I get it.. then I have to what.. pay him 5k back?
I'm just not that worried about it. And neither is anyone else in the group. We all accept that due to the way loot drops work and gold income works, that there is a transient discrepency in the group at all times, and that it evens out and shifts around between party members. The *only* way to prevent it is the "cash out" option where you liquidate it all and have folks buy what they want.
The crafter taking 10% doesn't solve it, and the method my group has doesn't solve it either.
We're just not that worried about it. What we aren't willing to do though, is pay someone to do their share of the group work. That just isn't happening. The crafter isn't getting paid to craft, the fighter isn't paid to be a fighter, the cleric isn't paid to be the face of the group, and so on. We all have our parts and roles to play- no one gets a bonus for doing what they do.
-S
well... this is just what I would do. i would talk to the other players first to deal with wealth discrepancies, then talk to the GM, the deal with it IG
Yeah, I think I've said everything I can say in defending what I do. Our players don't have a problem with it but, obviously, others will (as eclipse can attest).
I would make a suggestion to anyone thinking of becoming the party crafter. Discuss it ahead of time. If they have a problem with you charging, but the wealth is not divided evenly, you will fall behind. If the DM is nice enough to factor that in for you with extra drops suited only to you, then you will be ok.
Here's how typical downtime goes in my game. The crafter are usually off crafting for themselves, in my case this the Mystic Theurge. The cleric with no crafting feats is at the church offering spell casting services. The rogue is pickpocketing in the market doing jobs for the guild. The fighter usually is off gaining boons from NPCs that he can use at later time (this why I don't advise dumping CHR on fighters in my game).
So if the wizard charges a bit extra I don't think it would be a big deal. It's never comes up though as the wizard usually has his own items he is working on and it doesn't matter how much they offer him, he's busy with his own stuff.
|
i still don't agree that one needs to charge for crafting, application is vastly different from theory. and if it isn't a way to gain more wealth/power over the rest of the party, i don't mind someone charging
This is what I've been saying all along. Sometimes crafters shouldn't charge. Sometimes they should. It depends on the game.
As a Gm, though, I'm decided that the feat as intended does not allow crafters to charge their friends less than full market price for items without breaking the game, or, if the group insists, it's the Gm's job to drop less treasure to compensate. If it only directly benefits the crafter it's no better or worse than any other feat. If it benefits everyone then it's the most powerful feat in the game and needs nerfing.
Dragonfire8974 you keep quoting that paragraph without referencing the paragraph below it which limits the amount of work per day. I can see that you do not wish to read this but that is fine, it is your game. Enjoy - Gauss
...A ring of sustenance does not help crafting in any way shape or form. The rules on page 549 are pretty clear. You do anything other than sitting in a 'fairly quiet, comfortable, well lit place to work' and you do NOT get your 8hours a day of crafting. 8hours a day is your maximum thus a ring of sustenance does not help. If the caster is out adventuring he spends 4 hours a day maximum of which 2 hours a day count. Additionally, when not using the adventuring clause you must spend 4 hours in a single block. Ie: your relaxed period of crafting (8hours) can be spent in 2 four hour blocks while your adventuring period of crafting is broken up into whenever you have time.
A crafter does not 'need' any other person. Other persons can supply spells and abilities OTHER than craft feats but the other persons are not required since the DC can be increased by 5 for each ability not present. Note: spell trigger and spell completion items cannot get around the spell requirement. Other people cannot speed up the crafting process though.
In the end you are correct that adventuring slows down item creation. Which is why sandbox adventures where time is not an issue creates problems. - Gauss
ring of sustenance just helps with the limitation of time in a day, which really isn't a limitation, but i just like the extra 6 hours a day i get with the ring because you only need 2hrs of sleep instead of 8 to reprepare spells (though you can do that only 1/24 hours still).
keep reading those item creations rules. a wizard can rush the time it takes to create an item by increasing the DC +5 to turn the 8hrs a day into 4 hours a day for 1000g worth of work. please don't ignore this again, i've specifically typed this for you 3 times, and for other people many more times.
adventuring doesn't slow down item creation if you're a creator worth their salt. the idea that you'll gain wealth faster than you can create items is what i meant as time being a limiting factor, thus the
The ring doesn't let you craft more in the day. It does give you more hours in the day to do things generally.
24 hours:
8 hours adventuring, 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours making camp, breaking camp, eating, doing the lunch thing, relaxing, etc.
During that "8 hours making camp" is where you are sneaking in crafting time.
if you are able to cut down on the sleeping time, it gives you more time (through shortening the time to sleep) to get in the crafting while also having time to do other things.
it becomes 8 hours adventuring, 2 hours sleeping, 14 hours making camp. You take 8 of those making camp hours to craft (whether you double the time or not y taking the DC hit) that still leaves you with 6 hours in the day to basically screw around. talk to the party or if in town go to the library, or whatever.
Its not that it lets you craft more in the day- its that it lets you do more of really anything in the day. Its a floating free 6 hours that lets you organize everything else as you see fit.
its not that it gives you 6 hours crafting time extra. its that it gives you 6 more hours in the day to do whatever you want- which lets you arrange the crafting time better too.
-S