Other than being able to hide it on your person they are inferior weapons to the light crossbow.
If she wants to use it as a main weapon she is better off going ranger or fighter. They have fighting styles and/or archetypes built to make crossbows more useful.
The cost of the hand crossbow makes it difficult to start with, but by 2nd level will be pretty easy to afford.
If she has a heavy shield, then yes she would have difficulty reloading the crossbow. A light shield would be the way to go if she plans to use either a hand or light crossbow. One way to solve that is to have the crossbow loaded before combat begins, fire it at the beginning of combat, drop it or holster it and draw a melee weapon to charge in. If she doesn't plan on charging in, why is she a barbarian to begin with? She can be from a barbarian society but not be a barbarian, class-wise.
A sword and board (one handed weapon and shield) barbarian isn't the best idea anyway. You lose the damage that a two-handed weapon gives you, and the decrease in AC can be compensated for by better armor or a feat such as Toughness. Sword and board works best for fighters and rangers who can use the shield as a weapon for two-handed fighting when they want to, with shield spikes for example.
If she really likes the idea of a primitive warrior who uses crossbows, one of the ranger archetypes would be best. Deep Walker might suit a drow if she is going to be descending into the underworld again. Beast Lord or Skirmisher are also sound choices.
In general, the advantage of a crossbow over a javelin is the lower cost of ammunition, and that you can get 50 enchanted bolts for the same cost as a single enchanted javelin. You can also get some silver bolts, some cold iron bolts, some good bolts, some lawful bolts, some adamantine bolts, etc. to take care of different DR types. These advantages apply to all types of crossbows, of course.
Besides flavor, one advantage of hand crossbows that may or may not be important is the ability to conceal it using sleight of hand.
While you can fire a light or heavy crossbow with one hand, you take penalties. No penalties with the hand crossbow (unless you two-weapon fight with it.)
Loading a light crossbow requires a lever, while a heavy one requires a winch. Hand crossbows can be loaded by hand. (More of a roleplay reason. Mechanically, it is the same as a light crossbow.)
You can hide them on you with a Sleight of Hand check.
There is no purpose for the hand crossbow.
In 3E they eventually realized this and printed the Hand Crossbow Focus feat in Drow of the Underdark. It as basically Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus combined in one feat, so if you had proficiency already (rogues do), it ends up saving you a feat when going for the Crossbow Sniper feat (PHB 2).
But, those feats are not in PF, and PF didn't bother to do anything about its base stats to give it a purpose. *sigh*
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Who cares...
/end thread
:)
Hand crossbows make more sense when you load the quarrels with poison (which is what the drow do), but as the other posters have pointed out, mechanically they're not much to get excited about.
But they're really cool, so I'd still use one despite the mechanical disadvantage!
Hand crossbows make more sense when you load the quarrels with poison (which is what the drow do), but as the other posters have pointed out, mechanically they're not much to get excited about.
But they're really cool, so I'd still use one despite the mechanical disadvantage!
If you described it as a hand crossbow, but used all the stats and price of a light crossbow, would your DM seriously care?
The whole game is make believe anyway, if the only reason to do something is style, just refluff the less cool yet actually practical thing.
Who cares...
/end thread
:)
Yeah, with this "argument" you can justify everything.
So, no "/end thread", I am afraid.
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the game boils down to about 6 (being facetious) weapons total...
great sword, scimitar/rapier, morning star, gusarme, bow, dagger/kukuri. yes they have other weapons out there, but if you want mechanicaly superior weapons, without an EWP, these are the best weapons for a martial character.
now you can make specific cases where this weapon is better then that one, but all in all these are the most used weapons from my 15 years of experience. they are the best at what they do.
i see people take a war hammer over a morning star "because it fits there character better" but a morning star is better.
anyway, my point is that you play what you want, but if you're not using one of the magic 6 then you're not "optimizing your character".
or at least it seems that way...
Yeah, with this "argument" you can justify everything.
So, no "/end thread", I am afraid.
100% false.
Not everything is stylish, so you can't justify everything.
In this case though, the Hand Crossbow is nothing less than tres cool and stylish, a fact all the cool and stylish people inherently know. You did know that fact right?
So yeah, /end thread.
Unless, of course, you didn't know.
[PS, they go great as a concealed weapon when used in conjunction with things like poisons and the rogues bleed ability. Sniping with them is also cool - when rolling with some sneak attack damage. Go for a dual wield pairing for the ultimate in panache...]
Thanks LazarX, glad someone else remembers the old FF introduction of this classic iconic weapon (and its purpose).
Fortunately there are a lot of riders kicking around now that make this tool a fabulous little 'can do' weapon, and an excellent weapon for the style savvy adventurer.
Tres chic.
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If the character was captured by human barbarians as a child how does she know how to use a hand crossbow? Racial weapon proficiencies come from nurture not nature. Even if she learnt how to use it a bit in Drow kindergarten, picking one up years later does not automatically mean she can use it effectively.
I played a drow rogue with TWF a long time. Main focus was on two short swords, which rocked pretty good because i had good flanking partners and oportunities. Besides that i carried two hand crossbows, for ranged combat and combat openings. The GM agreed to special equpiment, the rogue wore them like pistols in hip holsters, to draw them fast, and they were tied with a cord to those holsters, so they could just be dropped.
From my experience on, its nice to be able to shoot someone twice while getting close, especially with poison. You won´t deal a lot of sneak attack this way though. For the barbarian its even worse because crossbows don´t have bonus damage from STR when i remember right. Also many, many monsters have way too high a FORT save to get touched by most poisons and it does get expensive. Paying 1000gp + several times will add up.
That said for a barbarian a sling would be better technically, as well as a bow. Most cool sling feats are restricted to halflings though.
And only focussing on a hand crossbow, the chance the player will get frustrated at some point is pretty high i would say.
Crossbows are thematically badass, PF just doesn't really like them mechanically. If you care more about your character portrait looking badass than your character performing like a badass in an actual game, crossbows are an excellent choice. In pathfinder, crossbows are the backup ranged weapon for characters with strength penalties and things NPCs hold. (If a character is a barbarian who will be mostly fighting up close, a crossbow is a reasonable choice for a ranged weapon. Certainly inferior to a bow in any way that's going to matter, but the difference isn't that big of a deal unless the character is using the bow/xbow as the primary weapon.)
Unless, of course, you didn't know.
Whats stylish and whats not lies in the eye of the beholder. I think hand xbows are silly.
The character is a barbarian. He has no business spending precious rounds in combat attempting ranged combat except as a last resort or a roleplaying opportunity. For this character the hand crossbow wins on both accounts:
last resort: Use a (too expensive for normal use) poisoned bolt. Yes, you can do more damage with a light crossbow or whatever but the main point would be the poison anyways.
roleplaying: Uber-thematic for a drow. Looks and feels like a pistol, awesome for a Coup de Grace. I can see it now:
[Enemy on knees begging for mercy] "Killing me won't bring her back."
[Drow barbarian, holding hand crossbow] "Ain't that a shame."
[thunk. Barbarian walks away without looking back as villain writhes in the throes of terrible dark elf poison.]
If the character was captured by human barbarians as a child how does she know how to use a hand crossbow? Racial weapon proficiencies come from nurture not nature. Even if she learnt how to use it a bit in Drow kindergarten, picking one up years later does not automatically mean she can use it effectively.
Because its a function of his race, nothing else. An elf raised by stone-age primitives who haven't even learned to use copper yet is still proficient with longswords. A dwarf raised by humans, in an area far away from any giant, still gets a dodge bonus against giants.
It doesn't make much sense, but those are the rules.
Drow use them to deliver poison. They're of little use otherwise.
The character is a barbarian. He has no business spending precious rounds in combat attempting ranged combat except as a last resort or a roleplaying opportunity. For this character the hand crossbow wins on both accounts:
last resort: Use a (too expensive for normal use) poisoned bolt. Yes, you can do more damage with a light crossbow or whatever but the main point would be the poison anyways.
roleplaying: Uber-thematic for a drow. Looks and feels like a pistol, awesome for a Coup de Grace. I can see it now:
[Enemy on knees begging for mercy] "Killing me won't bring her back."
[Drow barbarian, holding hand crossbow] "Ain't that a shame."
[thunk. Barbarian walks away without looking back as villain writhes in the throes of terrible dark elf poison.]
See? this is a great example of how lack of proper rules trump style.
You coup the grace the enemy with your hand crossbow. That's an automatic crit. 2d4. Average 7 damage, and a 17 DC saving throw. Unless you are coup de gracing a goblin, it's quite probably an epic fail.
Don't forget Deadly Aim. That'll make the coup-de-grace DC sufficient to be lethal.
Back in the day playing 3.0/3.5 spell storing could be put on ammo. I had a drow wizard/cleric who'd drop silence spells and use the hand xbow to deliver spells. But in PF they changed how spell storing weapon enchant works
The wording of Spell Storing is exactly the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5.
Improved Two-weapon fighting + Rapid Shot is something I've always wanted to try with Hand Crossbows.
Don't forget Deadly Aim. That'll make the coup-de-grace DC sufficient to be lethal.
Slightly more, but a horrible coup de grace regardless. You couldn't find a worse weapon, actually. A dagger adds STR, so it's better (it can have power attack as well)
With low BAB, it's 2d4+4. 9 damage with deadly aim, 5 without (was misscalculated before). DC 19 or DC 15 saves. If the character have a gauntlet, he might get a better coup de grace with a punch. Or using the hand crossbow as an improvised club.
Don't forget Deadly Aim. That'll make the coup-de-grace DC sufficient to be lethal.
Slightly more, but a horrible coup de grace regardless. You couldn't find a worse weapon, actually. A dagger adds STR, so it's better (it can have power attack as well)
With low BAB, it's 2d4+4. 9 damage with deadly aim, 5 without (was misscalculated before). DC 19 or DC 15 saves. If the character have a gauntlet, he might get a better coup de grace with a punch. Or using the hand crossbow as an improvised club.
The point was that the poison does the damage for you. The character is a barbarian and can splatter the walls with blood and gore by Coup de Grace-ing with his axe or whatever. I like the image of the barbarian suppressing his rage to kill his nemesis in cold blood, leaving no obvious wound but a poisoned dart as a calling card.
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Drow use them to deliver poison. They're of little use otherwise.Unless of course you're using them for sneak attack damage as my Arcane Trickster used to do.
In which case you're better using litterally any other weapon like the shortbow, considering the short range for ranged sneak attacks. Any weapon can have some kind of situational, welcomed use, it doesn't make them viable.
I'd say the primary purpose of them over other more damaging ranged weapons in drow culture is the delivery of poison, even to small weak targets without normally risking killing them. If the barbarian has some source of poison and wants to use it the hand crossbow is a decent way to do it, esspecially when dealing with npc's you might not want to actually kill. It wont be something used in combat all that often, but it can be very nice as a roleplaying tool.
Asta
PSY
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Rogues get shortbows, easy to hide.
Not every DM lets crossbows be conveniently transported while loaded. And like I said, just because a hand crossbow is useful when climbing doesn't mean it is a weapon worth spending more than it's base gp price as long as you can afford grappling tools, or an immovable rod to support you.
Other than hiding it on your person, there is literally nothing the hand crossbow does that light xbow doesn't do the same or better. Shoot with one in each hand? You can do that w/ a light xbow. Reload as a free action w/ a feat? You can do that with a light xbow. And so on. Except Light xbow costs less, has better range, does more damage, and doesn't cost a feat to learn (except for rogue, who's proficient with both anyway).
Other than hiding it on your person
Which is a significant consideration in many many games played over the years.
Sure if you just have beer and pretzel dungeon cralws all the time then this wont come up, but if you are doing a lot of urban/city based adventuring then this will come up quite a lot.
You wont be 'easily concealing' a short bow, so your choise of ranged weapons is a bit reduced.
"Fun > Rules" - I couldn't agree more, except that munchkins and cheezemonkeys at ones table get all stroppy because you didn't 'optimise' with one of the half dozen allowable weapons in the game. Frankly I just laugh at their lack of style, panache, sense of cool.
Those are the sorts of guys who ask why you blew a wad of dough on some fine threads when their $5 leisure suit from Wal-Mart keeps them plenty warmer.
It isn't optimizing to expect an EXOTIC weapon to at least be as good as a SIMPLE weapon. How much is the conealing worth? Hand crossbow does 2 die sizes smaller damage, has less than half the range increment, costs more... You'd think if you took Light Crossbow, made a "Hand Crossbow" with identical stats except it can be hidden on your person and is an exotic weapon, it'd be quite balanced, if not still kinda weak. But it's not even that.
Well I'd be happy to see a hand-crossbow get a mechanical (RAW) boost, but I'd say the same for Crossbows in general. The ability to add a Str bonus to a bow, yet not to a Crossbow, is just a whole lot of unfortunate silliness.
How much is a concealed range weapon worth?
Dunno, but I had a pretty nifty 'assassin' in a low end city based game using one to particularly good effect.
Shortbows and Light Crossbows just aren't getting concealed, so Hand Crossbow it is.