Ask the original designers. Or better, do some search about crossbows, find out that they suck so much they made it into TVTropes for it, find out that ranged combat itself also sucked balls in 3.5 even with a bow, and wonder what the possibility to shoot once more per round implies when it comes to make a combat style more viable as a design trick."The rule is already written. Perform one extra attack with -2 penalty, nothing more, nothing less. "
Exactly what i said. So what makes this attack not require a reload?
I agree crossbows suck hard, but what the original designers had intended is not the issue here. First of all this is not 3.5, but we are also discussing RAW and not RAI, hence for all itents and purposes the ekstra attack from rapid shot simply counts as an ekstra attack, nothing more, nothing less.
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Ofcourse you can use rapid shot with a musket, you just wont recieve any bonus unless you are able to take that ekstra attack, ie you can reload as a free action. You could combine it with the skill that pools all your attacks and only require one bullet, in which case it would just grant you one ekstra dice for the attack.
I hope you're not talking about Dead Shot there.
Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the
gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack
potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she
shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many
attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus.
emphasis mine
So at 7th level your attacks are based off 7/2, no extra attacks from haste or rapid shot, although other benefits of haste still apply.also Nick, It's extra not ekstra.
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Try the gunslinger from 1-4, roughly speaking they suck ... badly. They'll be broke have limited attacks at even lower...
They're actually not too bad a level 2, especially if you have a musket. The ability to do 1D12 against touch AC at range against the BBEG can be significant in a tier 1-2 encounter, especially if you burn a grit point on the first shot to get to use touch AC at the second range increment. That might get you enough time to get off a second shot before the BBEG and his minions can close to melee range.
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Yes he can, rapid reload + alchemic cartridges reduced his reload time to a free action therefore he can reload both barrels after every shot otherwise they'd just be worthless side grades of normal pistols.
Reloading two weapons when twf is iffy but works as long as you don't rule they have a specific attack order for the off hand aka prim.1->sec.1->prim.2->sec.2 ... and instead he can go prim.1->prim.2->sec.1->sec.2 and has weapon straps. But even without twf they can put out a mean hurting with double pistols.
The real issue is that he probably has the greater reliable enchantment at his level which means he never really has to worry about misfires which would otherwise be significant decrease to his damage values.
However, unless he's gone for the feat tree to get deft shootist if you do get him in combat or threat he provokes with each shot and each reload so he really won't be doing that. Also the touch only happens in the first range so at 20ft or less for double pistols, anything big with some reach could put a smackdown on him if he didn't kill it in one turn.
Full Attack
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
You must use your first iterative attack with both weapons before using the second iterative attack.
You can chose to sue your left or right hand to make the first attack, but then you must use the other hand. you can't make all the iterative attacks with one hand and then all the iterative with the other hand.
Try the gunslinger from 1-4, roughly speaking they suck ... badly. They'll be broke have limited attacks at even lower...They're actually not too bad a level 2, especially if you have a musket. The ability to do 1D12 against touch AC at range against the BBEG can be significant in a tier 1-2 encounter, especially if you burn a grit point on the first shot to get to use touch AC at the second range increment. That might get you enough time to get off a second shot before the BBEG and his minions can close to melee range.
Once a Human Gunslinger Musket Master hits level 3 and Rapid Shot, he can get off TWO shots a round at +6 (assuming an 18 Dex and a MW Gun)... at level 4? They get precise shot allowing them to sacrifice to hit for damage. They can be deadly at level 3. +6 on touch AC is not bad at all.
I played a FRESH gunslinger and while I wasn't game changer I didn't miss much and when it came to the BBEG? A 12 pt hit was the final blow [b]after someone else had hit them.[b]
I think the important part here is the bolded part. You guys worked as a team. Good job. Your last shot, a powerful one, felled the BBEG. Just a good shot from an archer would have after the BSF hit him. I don't see the issue here. You yourself admit you weren't the game-changer.
Edit: besides, you'd still need lachemical cartridges, which are very expensive at level 3, even crafting them yourself, to get that extra attack.
As diego said, you have to use the iterative attacks in that order, which means that the twf with weapon cords does not work, as it will require way more than one swift action.
So if we go to the gloves of storing cheese, then i would still rule that it cant be done and here is why. You can shoot with a gun in each hand, but once you start using both hands to reload and fire one gun, then both hands count as wielding the weapon. Previously we have discussed what constitutes wielding a weapon, but jason came in on that subject and said it was "using it as intended". Using a gun as intended is both firing it and reloading it, thus requiring two hands.
Ofcourse this is where the rules begin to get a little iffy, but atleast we should all be able to agree that even by RAW dual wielding pistols in that way is very iffy and thus only possible with a lenient GM, as you are requiring a specific way of understanding the rules.
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As diego said, you have to use the iterative attacks in that order, which means that the twf with weapon cords does not work, as it will require way more than one swift action.
Yes it works, you just have to wield a DB pistol in the other hand, and shoot only one barrel at a time with it. Two barrels loaded : two off-hand attacks. GTWF gives you 3 off-hand attacks at level 12, and you can reload one more barrel as a free action at level 11, even if you don't have Rapid Reload (DB pistols).
So if we go to the gloves of storing cheese, then i would still rule that it cant be done and here is why. You can shoot with a gun in each hand, but once you start using both hands to reload and fire one gun, then both hands count as wielding the weapon. Previously we have discussed what constitutes wielding a weapon, but jason came in on that subject and said it was "using it as intended". Using a gun as intended is both firing it and reloading it, thus requiring two hands.
It's no cheese to use the system as intended, please don't be insulting again just because you disagree with how it works. We're not talking about RAGELANCEPOUNCE ridiculousness here, since there still isn't any serious build to support this theorycrafting.
The whole "reloading with both hands" is moot. Here is the text about two-handed firearms :"You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm."
So I can load a two-handed firearm in one hand and shoot it with both, but I can't load a one-handed firearm and shoot it with one ? This makes no sense by RAI ; and by RAW, care to explain why the text from crossbows that would prove you right about wielding/having a free hand is nowhere to be seen in the firearm descriptions, while the it is certain that the developers read these again during development considering their modification to rapid reload ?
What you do in your games is your concern and that of your players. It still doesn't change the RAW, the theorycrafting, and what people actually have experienced in game.
Cheese is subjective, and there are not too many things that can be considered to be cheese across the board. With that said, just because the RAW allows something that does not mean it is not cheese.
There are ways to get 5 or more casters above your actual class levels. That would have you controlling CR 20+ monsters at level 15, maybe earlier. When you can use a spell to bring a monster to the table that can kick your butt, and possiblly the BBEG's also that is not good.
As diego said, you have to use the iterative attacks in that order, which means that the twf with weapon cords does not work, as it will require way more than one swift action.Yes it works, you just have to wield a DB pistol in the other hand, and shoot only one barrel at a time with it. Two barrels loaded : two off-hand attacks. GTWF gives you 3 off-hand attacks at level 12, and you can reload one more barrel as a free action at level 11, even if you don't have Rapid Reload (DB pistols).
How do you manage to get that many reloads, as far as i can see, and using db pistols its.
right hand fire - left hand fire - right hand fire - left hand fire - drop left hand wp(free) - reload right - fire right - drop right - retrieve left - reload left - fire left.
that is 6 attacks, or 3 each. But now you will start next round with only a weapon in you left hand, while it isnt even loaded. So second round is kinda dead.
I thought it had been "clarified" that with TWF you could take attacks from one hand before attacks from the second hand?
Can you point to the quote? according to RAW in the combat section, it clearly states that you must make all of your attacks from highest to lowest BAB.
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I know the exact rules about the order of itterative attacks, and they mention "attacks given by high BAB" as a prerequisite of the rule, not "additional attacks given by off-hand weapon".
So by RAW you could take your main hand attacks from highest to lowest ; then do the same with the off-hand weapon, all the while following the rules to the letter.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
The last sentence means you can choose which weapon to make the first swing with. If you could use the all the primary hands first then it would say "you can strike with either hand first", meaning that hand could make all of its attacks before you had to switch over.
There is nothing written that says the previous line of attackign from highest bonus to lowest can be ignored.
@ wraithstirke agreed.
Just for kicks i made the gunslinger with the weapon cord cheese, to see what he can kick.
Level 11 human pistolero (20 PT BUILD)
str: 10
dex: 18 + 2 LEVEL + 2 HUMAN + 4 belt= 26
Con: 12
Int: 8
wis: 13 + 1 LEVEL + 2 headband = 16
cha: 10
HP: 11D10 + 11 + 11 (Favored) = 82.5
AC: 10 + 8 dex + 1 nat + 1 ring + 4 armor + 3 dodge = 27
saves:
fort: 10, reflex: 16, will: 8
feats: rapid reload (duble barreled pistols), point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus (double barrel pistols), precise shot, two wp fighting,
improved twf, signature deed (up close and dirty).
Items: +1 greater reliable double barreled pistol. (36k), +1 reliable double barreled pistol (8k), + 1 ring of protection (2k),
+1 amulet of nat armor (1k), +4 dex belt (16k), +2 wis headband (4k), +2 resistance cloak (4k), +2 Mitrhal leather armor (5k),
cracked pale green prism (4k),
2k to bullets, alchemical catridges and random stuff and weapon cords.
5 grit availible.
Attack rutine is +11/+6/+1 from BAB, which is +7/+7/+2/+2/-3 when using twf, and +5/+5/+5/+0/+0/-5 when using rapid shot. Now we use the ability to
fire 2 shots at a time with the gun, and we get +3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/-2/-2/-2/-2/-7/-7. Now we add all of the ekstra to hit modifiers (dex and so on).
which is +8 dex + 1 pb shot + 1 enchant + 1 ion stone + 1 wpf = + 12. and we get +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5 against touch ac.
each attack gives 1d8 + 1 enchant + 8 dex + 3d6 = 24 dam
vs ac 14 touch (seems reasonable) this gives 6 * ( 0.95 * 24 + 0.05 * 0.95 * 3 * 13.5) + 4 * ( 0.85 * 24 + 0.05 * 0.85 * 3 * 13.5)
+ 2 * ( 0.6 * 24 + 0.05 * 0.6 * 3 * 13.5) = 148.3425 + 87.975 + 31.23 = 267.5475 average damage
and 8 bleed damage if spending a grit point.
This attack sequense assumes that you are able to fire all attacks with main hand first, and then using weapon cord firing with the off hand. Misfires
are not really a problem as only the offhand can break, and if it does he has 5 grit to keep it functioning. and then repair it after the combat.
Considering that he should earn about 1 grit per turn from killing stuff or making crits. I have not calculated in the fact that if he breaks the weapon,
then the crit will be x2 and not x4, which should reduce the damage slightly.
Considering an average damage of 267.5475 or 275.5475 if using a grit point to make bleed. I would say that he most definately can compete with the pounce charge lance OMG.
This is all while not sacrificing survivability, he still has 27 ac (higher than most level 11 chars, and monsters), decent saves and 82.5 hp. In my book a non glass canon with ish 270 dpr at level 11 is kinda broken. Which leads back to the argument with weapon cord and storing gloves.
Assuming that you have to attack from highest to lowest with the attacks, then glove of storing wont work either. In the description it only gives you one glove, and says it takes up your entire hands slot. This ,means you can only make one of the weapons dissappear, making it impossible to utilize that many reloads in a round.
@maxximilius, if you can find any way to actually reload the guns, i would love to hear it. Preferably in a specific attack sequence describing what is or isnt actions.
I thought the weapon cord idea does not work because it requires a swift action.
Honestly, I don't feel the Gunslinger is overpowered, or broken in the sense of damage or touch AC, etc.
Here's a rundown of what I"m seeing...
Things that are okay:
- Free action to reload a weapon. This is simply a factor of speed. I'm fine with crazy fast reloading.
- Free action reload allowing both barrels of a double pistol loading at once each time. So you grab two bullets in one hand.. this is humanly possible right now. Even with front loaders, it's just a matter of technique.
- Firing two barrels, reloading both barrels, and firing again in repeated sequence to get a ton of attacks and damage.
- Firing a weapon in each hand using Two Weapon Fighting.
- Firing a multi-shot weapon in each hand using Two Weapon Fighting, as long as you don't need a free hand to get the next shot (like a pepperbox).
Things that aren't okay:
- Using two hands to fire/reload a single weapon, then using the same hands to fire and reload an "offhand" weapon.
Yep, that's about it. I'm fine with it right up to the point that both hands are being used, and then trying to call it "offhand extra attacks" by changing with and a weapon is in. Oh yeah, and it has to be a different weapon as well.
The reason I have a problem with this is because it seems equivocal to the following situations:
1. Pulling an arrow from your quiver, pulling back on a bow, and firing, using all your iteratives, and then "switching hands" with "a different bow" to do the same thing again with Two Weapon Fighting gaining "offhand attacks".
2. Using a Two Handed weapon with two hands, swinging right-handed, then dropping it and using a second Two Handed weapon (or any weapon) in the offhand to gain Two Weapon Fighting "offhand attacks".
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Okay... I think I've found a loophole:
Glove of Storing (free action shrink and return) and Swapping weapons from hand to hand being considered a free action.
It's a free action to reload the weapon, it's a free action to store and retrieve a weapon, and it's a free action to switch which hands hold the weapons.
So the reloading process for two double-barrel pistols goes as follows:
1. Shrink weapon 1 (free action)
2. Reload weapon 2, both barrels (2x free action)
3. Retrieve weapon 1 (free action)
4. Swap weapon hands (free action, or 2x free action?)
5. Shrink weapon 2 (free action)
6. Reload weapon 1, both barrels (2x free action)
7. Retrieve weapon 2 (free action)
Now fire both weapons at the current iterative (part of the full attack).
Now do reload process listed above.
Repeat until you are out of attacks.
So at 11th level, you are looking at doing:
Attack with both weapons (+11 BAB)
10 free actions to reload both weapons
Attack with both weapons (+6 BAB)
10 free actions to reload both weapons
Attack with both weapons (+1 BAB)
10 free actions to reload both weapons (so it's ready for next round)
So a Full Attack round with 30 free actions.
That.. might.. push a DM's discretion regarding the "limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn." (Quote - PRD; Combat; Actions in Combat, Free Actions).
Honestly... at this point, I think we have a RAW method to make this work (Glove of Storing, not weapon cords), but honestly, it pushes undefined limits for the game.
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In the end, I'd rather that a gunslinger use TWF to get a massive burst of attacks with preloaded weapons (forcing continued rounds of this to be done with weaker, non-magically enhanced weapons, or spending a round reloading).
For sustained, round by round attack process, I'd rather see Rapid Shot (a quick reload and fire of one single gun).
Both tropes can be fulfilled without having to resort to pushing "free actions" to the stretching point.
The glove of storing idea was presented already, and as you explain it stretched what a GM would allow. I think it is discussed on paged 3 or 4.
To get into an actual "power level" conversation...
I would like to note that Rapid Shot and Manyshot seems to have been good enough for Archers to compete.
Firearms get an equipment version of Manyshot (that works on all attacks no less!), so in my opinion, Rapid Shot should be good enough for them too.
Guns = close range, but Touch AC, expensive ammo, with several class-oriented methods of boosting damage. Can use TWF to gain burst damage on one-handed firearms.
Bows = longer range, but Normal AC, cheaper ammo, with several equipment-based and magical-based methods of boosting damage (composite, gravity bow, etc). Can ignore some AC methods on single attacks (Pinpoint Targeting).
I really don't see the need to go all-out with full TWF with "manyshot on each attack" for firearms. They've already got a lot going for them, and the ability to more likely get full attacks compared to the melee folks puts them squarely in the Bow fighter territory for effectiveness.
The glove of storing idea was presented already, and as you explain it stretched what a GM would allow. I think it is discussed on paged 3 or 4.
I had thought it was a glove of storing and weapon cord combination that was mentioned. I didn't see anything about free actions to swap the weapons from hand to hand.
Regardless, I think the exact sequence being written out, step by step, is good to exhibit where some people might have a problem with this.
At the very least, DMs can decide if this is what they want happening with free actions in their game, and if someone is concerned about PFS, they can FAQ it.
I think this is one of those times a PFS GM gets to decide.
Yikes... well that can create a fairly large variance in DPR, or combat effectiveness, from GM to GM for what is supposed to be a fairly regulated gaming situation.
Dropping a character's DPR by a little under half, and make some of his feats near-useless (especially if his equipment relies on more lenient rules adjudication), feels like there should likely be a ruling instead (FAQ would be enough).
Though, I guess this thread can be considered a caution/warning towards those who might want to pull this one off for their PFS character.
The FAQ would have to be on free actions per round, but that is a GM area by the rules. It is more likely that PFS would have to make their own rule for this. Any hard rules on free actions per round would cause issues with other free actions such as drawing ammunition, and other things I am too lazy to look up.
@ wraithstirke agreed.
Just for kicks i made the gunslinger with the weapon cord cheese, to see what he can kick.
** spoiler omitted **...
Pistols aren't light, so your values are off. It should be -4/-4 for twf, not -2/-2. Your final to-hit should be 2 less across the board. Point-blank shot is also to damage, so you're missing a +1 there as well.
To me, Gunslingers are not broken, they are anoying. I hate the whole "use 5 gazzillion guns and shoot them" thing. I hate rapid reload feats (both for this, and crossbows).
To be honest, I hate rapid firing Zen Archers as well. I'd love to see Deadly Shot as the basic damage for missile weapons. At the very least, for Crossbows and Guns.
@ matt stich, it seems you are partly correct. My values for twf is actually correct, what is wrong is the -4 you get from using the dual barrels, apparently i used -2.
I was actually also missing a feat, since i forgot i made him human. For this ekstra feat you could either take clustered shots, which is probably the better in a campaign as DR will really lower his damage output, but for these calculations we give him improved crit instead.
this gives a damage of
6 * ( 0.95 * 26 + 0.1 * 0.95 * 3 * 15.5) + 4 * ( 0.75 * 26 + 0.1 * 0.75 * 3 * 15.5) + 2 * ( 0.5 * 26 + 0.1 * 0.5 * 3 * 15.5) = 297.308 or 305.308 DPR after spending a grit point to cause bleed.
With the attack sequence posted by Kaisoku with the gloves of storing, and he could afford it by swapping in either his +4 dex belt and +1 ring of protection for the gloves and a +2 dex belt, or by swapping +2 rope of resistance, +2 wisdom head and ring of protection for the gloves.
In a real game i would probably choose the +2 dex belt as the other survival items are pretty neccesarry, but this will lower his DPR to 267.085 or 275.085 with bleed. While he can maintain the 305 by swapping in the other items, making him a lot more glass cannon like, with lower saves (2 less reflex and fort, and 3 less will save) and 26 ac.
At level 13 he will ofcourse sell his reliable guns, as he can no longer misfire anyway, and then his DPR will spike massively because he can run around with fx a +2 fire and frost gun instead.
Ofourse he can also knock the big baddie prone after each round of attacks, just so he has a harder time getting close to the gun slinger. Pretty darn good combo in my mind.
EDIT: apparently i forgot that pistol training also gives +1 dam at level 11. so i redid calculations.
Yes he can, rapid reload + alchemic cartridges reduced his reload time to a free action therefore he can reload both barrels after every shot otherwise they'd just be worthless side grades of normal pistols.
Reloading two weapons when twf is iffy but works as long as you don't rule they have a specific attack order for the off hand aka prim.1->sec.1->prim.2->sec.2 ... and instead he can go prim.1->prim.2->sec.1->sec.2 and has weapon straps. But even without twf they can put out a mean hurting with double pistols.
The real issue is that he probably has the greater reliable enchantment at his level which means he never really has to worry about misfires which would otherwise be significant decrease to his damage values.
However, unless he's gone for the feat tree to get deft shootist if you do get him in combat or threat he provokes with each shot and each reload so he really won't be doing that. Also the touch only happens in the first range so at 20ft or less for double pistols, anything big with some reach could put a smackdown on him if he didn't kill it in one turn.
Full Attack
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.You must use your first iterative attack with both weapons before using the second iterative attack.
You can chose to sue your left or right hand to make the first attack, but then you must use the other hand. you can't make all the iterative attacks with one hand and then all the iterative with the other hand.
You only have to take attacks from highest to lowest based off of BAB. That is from the rules you quoted. The problem with your line of thought is, the extra attacks from TWF are granted by feat, not BAB. The feats have a BAB requirement, but the feats specifically state that they grant extra attacks. Hence, they are not from BAB, so they don't have to be taken from highest to lowest.
Said another way, the extra attacks from TWF are not iterative attacks, they are a bonus from the feat. Therefore the rules for iterative attacks do not apply.
You only have to take attacks from highest to lowest based off of BAB. That is from the rules you quoted. The problem with your line of thought is, the extra attacks from TWF are granted by feat, not BAB. The feats have a BAB requirement,...
I would disagree with this reading. The ekstra attacks even though they are granted by the feat, does not say that they are to be treated any differently from regular BAB attacks, and as such you would need to take them in the same order.
But this argument is only important with regards to the weapon cord, and if we read the two weapon fighting feat to the letter, it actually states that you have to be holding another weapon in your off hand at the same time to get this bonus attack. If you are using the weapon cord then you will have one hanging in the cord while firing, which would not qualify you to gain the extra attacks. This can ofcourse be circumvented with the gloves of storing, if you just fire while you have both weapons in hand.
"from the rules: Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light."
The specific paragraph is the "second weapon", you cannot hold a second weapon in your off hand, if you dont have a first weapon in your main hand.
I think the great secret with TWF Gunslingers, is to upgrade to pepperboxes as soon as you can.
Unless your DM lets you get revolvers. I love my Revolvers. But I'm a Western Nut.
The specific paragraph is the "second weapon", you cannot hold a second weapon in your off hand, if you dont have a first weapon in your main hand.
Untrue, Monk's Flurry is TWFing according to designes and they do it without a second weapon (unarmed).
Untrue, Monk's Flurry is TWFing according to designes and they do it without a second weapon (unarmed).
The specific paragraph is the "second weapon", you cannot hold a second weapon in your off hand, if you dont have a first weapon in your main hand.Let's not go there :-)
i agree. Lets not go there, monks flurry is like TWF not precisely TWF. But anyway we have to go with the rules as written, and with the quote i gave it seems pretty clear that you cant get the extra attacks if you use weapon cords.
You only have to take attacks from highest to lowest based off of BAB. That is from the rules you quoted. The problem with your line of thought is, the extra attacks from TWF are granted by feat, not BAB. The feats have a BAB requirement,...I would disagree with this reading. The ekstra attacks even though they are granted by the feat, does not say that they are to be treated any differently from regular BAB attacks, and as such you would need to take them in the same order.
But this argument is only important with regards to the weapon cord, and if we read the two weapon fighting feat to the letter, it actually states that you have to be holding another weapon in your off hand at the same time to get this bonus attack. If you are using the weapon cord then you will have one hanging in the cord while firing, which would not qualify you to gain the extra attacks. This can ofcourse be circumvented with the gloves of storing, if you just fire while you have both weapons in hand.
"from the rules: Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light."
The specific paragraph is the "second weapon", you cannot hold a second weapon in your off hand, if you dont have a first weapon in your main hand.
I agree that it is probably not possible to TWF with two double-barreled pistols, but it is possible with two pepper-boxes. My reply was in response to the incorrect application of iterative rules on TWF rules.
I agree that it is probably not possible to TWF with two double-barreled pistols, but it is possible with two pepper-boxes. My reply was in response to the incorrect application of iterative rules on TWF rules.
Anyway i think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work. Except that it will require 30 free actions per round, which is a little excessive.
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Anyway i think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work. Except that it will require 30 free actions per round, which is a little excessive.
Yeah, it's very shady rules-wise, and I wouldn't allow it.
Dual wielding isn't thematically necessary for a Gunslinger at all. Hell, watch actual Westerns, it's basically unknown. I like Westerns and watch quite a few and I've literally never actually seen a gunman wo dual-wields as a regular thing. So I'm calling it cheesy, unnecessary to be effective (you can grab Rapid Shot if you want an extra shot per turn), and generally annoying. and thus, I wouldn't let it work.
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I agree that it is probably not possible to TWF with two double-barreled pistols, but it is possible with two pepper-boxes. My reply was in response to the incorrect application of iterative rules on TWF rules.Anyway i think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work. Except that it will require 30 free actions per round, which is a little excessive.
As a GM, I'll call BS on something that can fire a gun more times in a round than a monk of equal level could throw punches when flurrying.
That made me spurt milk out my nose... *golf clap*
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I think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work.
Because, according to RAW, you can only use one glove of storing, not the one on each hand that TWF would require.
As a GM, I'll call BS on something that can fire a gun more times in a round than a monk of equal level could throw punches when flurrying.I agree that it is probably not possible to TWF with two double-barreled pistols, but it is possible with two pepper-boxes. My reply was in response to the incorrect application of iterative rules on TWF rules.Anyway i think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work. Except that it will require 30 free actions per round, which is a little excessive.
What level than are limiting? Are you counting Haste/Ki?
Level 1th is 3 attacks (assuming Haste)Level 4th level 4 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Level 6th is 5 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Level 8th is 6 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Level 11th is 7 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Level 15th is 8 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Level 16th is 9 attacks (assuming Haste/Ki)
Wait, we didn't add Medusa feat so 11 is max attacks at level 16.
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can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
"Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat). "
A relevant quote from the OGL Gunslinger section:
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The bolded bit was discussed as important in the previous discussion I found on this subject. It would appear to indicate you can reload as a free action once per found.
As that is a bit ambiguous, I was hoping an errata or FAQ had addressed this point.
You missed the important bit about "he can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action"
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Anyway i think we can agree that using weapon cords with twf and double barrel will not work as per RAW. But i do have a hard time comming up against a rule for why gloves of storing wouldnt work. Except that it will require 30 free actions per round, which is a little excessive.Yeah, it's very shady rules-wise, and I wouldn't allow it.
Dual wielding isn't thematically necessary for a Gunslinger at all. Hell, watch actual Westerns, it's basically unknown. I like Westerns and watch quite a few and I've literally never actually seen a gunman wo dual-wields as a regular thing. So I'm calling it cheesy, unnecessary to be effective (you can grab Rapid Shot if you want an extra shot per turn), and generally annoying. and thus, I wouldn't let it work.
Doc Holiday in Tombstone would use two pistols at times.
Doc Holiday in Tombstone would use two pistols at times.You're right. Once or twice he does, but he hardly needs to. It's not an essential part of his fighting style...i.e. it's something he maybe burned one Feat on and doesn't try to reload while doing.
Even with semi-automatics most pros (police/soldiers) irl are going to single wield pistols it is more accurate and it allows for fast convenient reloading. My pistolero builds almost always use a single weapon.
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Even with semi-automatics most pros (police/soldiers) irl are going to single wield pistols it is more accurate and it allows for fast convenient reloading. My pistolero builds almost always use a single weapon.Doc Holiday in Tombstone would use two pistols at times.You're right. Once or twice he does, but he hardly needs to. It's not an essential part of his fighting style...i.e. it's something he maybe burned one Feat on and doesn't try to reload while doing.
In any John Woo movie everybody uses the two gun style because it's cooler. The question then becomes is Pathfinder closer to reality or a John Woo film? Everybody knows that reality sucks so Pathfinder's John Woo two gun style gunslinger automatically wins.
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In any John Woo movie everybody uses the two gun style because it's cooler. The question then becomes is Pathfinder closer to reality or a John Woo film? Everybody knows that reality sucks so Pathfinder's John Woo two gun style gunslinger automatically wins.
I disagree. The question has nothing to do with reality, the question at hand is whether Pathfinder is closer to a Western like Unforgiven, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly or Tombstone than it is to a John Woo movie. I'd say the answer (particularly based on the fiction in Pathfinder Tales, as well as the name of the Gunslinger class) unambiguously favors the Western. Which, as mentioned, almost never have two-gun mojo in them.