Ok, I was playing some PFS with a gunslinger at the table last night and his damage was seemingly over the top. Granted he was 11th level, but his output would have put a two hander to shame, and he did it from relative safety using touch attacks.
Now I've done a bit of a search here, and he was pumping out so much damage because of double barreled pistols (with precision damage, and dex bonus to damage, etc). From what I've read, he shouldn't be able to reload both barrels of the pistol within a round.
Has this interpretation ever been addressed in errata or a FAQ?
As his performance was last night, the gunslinger definitely seemed over the top. I can't imagine the game designers would have get a damage dealer like that stand.
Ok, I was playing some PFS with a gunslinger at the table last night and his damage was seemingly over the top. Granted he was 11th level, but his output would have put a two hander to shame, and he did it from relative safety using touch attacks.
Now I've done a bit of a search here, and he was pumping out so much damage because of double barreled pistols (with precision damage, and dex bonus to damage, etc). From what I've read, he shouldn't be able to reload both barrels of the pistol within a round.
Has this interpretation ever been addressed in errata or a FAQ?
As his performance was last night, the gunslinger definitely seemed over the top. I can't imagine the game designers would have get a damage dealer like that stand.
Wait, 1 double barrel postol or two?
Because the best Gunslinger damage dealers TWF with them.Why are you wondering if there is a FAQ about it you think he can't do what he did?
Shouldn't you bring this up with him?
can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
If he had rapid reload or alchemical cardtredges you can reload as many barrels as you like in a round with the lightning reload deed.
However was he using ONE double barreled pistol or two? One pistol there is no question at 11th level he can load it as a free action and fire as many times as he had attacks for so long as he has either rapid reload or alchemical cartridges. If he was using TWO pistols he would have had to drop one of them, because reloading a firearm requires a free hand.
"Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat). "
With a very niche build, they can do extremely good damage, due to the interaction between doublebarreled pistols, dual wielding, and free action reloading.
It only starts to work well at 11th level, otherwise you have to deal with an increased misfire chance.
Reloading two weapons when twf is iffy but works as long as you don't rule they have a specific attack order for the off hand aka prim.1->sec.1->prim.2->sec.2 ... and instead he can go prim.1->prim.2->sec.1->sec.2 and has weapon straps. But even without twf they can put out a mean hurting with double pistols.
If he has quickdraw he should be able to holster/draw pistols as a free action too, so he can always holster one of them and reload the other.
It seems extremely silly though that that's possible from a realism standpoint.
Reloading two weapons when twf is iffy but works as long as you don't rule they have a specific attack order for the off hand aka prim.1->sec.1->prim.2->sec.2 ... and instead he can go prim.1->prim.2->sec.1->sec.2 and has weapon straps. But even without twf they can put out a mean hurting with double pistols.If he has quickdraw he should be able to holster/draw pistols as a free action too, so he can always holster one of them and reload the other.
It seems extremely silly though that that's possible from a realism standpoint.
Actually I don't think it works that way. Quickdraw is just draw. It's not quick holster (or stow in general). I had looked into this for the purpose of a thrower, and it doesn't work that way by general consensus.
Why are you wondering if there is a FAQ about it you think he can't do what he did?
Shouldn't you bring this up with him?
This was a PFS game and I was playing, not judging. When I'm not judging, I do not interfere with other people's characters. That's up to the GM. In the future, however, I may have to GM this character (or other Gunslingers like his build) and I want to make sure everything is kosher.
Though I will say that if everything was kosher, it re-enforced my view that gunslingers will never see light in my home campaign.
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can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
"Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat). "
A relevant quote from the OGL Gunslinger section:
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The bolded bit was discussed as important in the previous discussion I found on this subject. It would appear to indicate you can reload as a free action once per found.
As that is a bit ambiguous, I was hoping an errata or FAQ had addressed this point.
Yes, I would agree with that interpretation drbuzzard, it's only a free action once per round.
However if he has Rapid Reload (reducing the reload time for a one handed firearm to a move action) and then uses Alchemical Cardridges (to reduce the move action to a free action) he can indeed reload as a free action.
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can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
At 11th level, a 2H barbarian can easily have a raging STR of 26, power attacking three times for 2d6+21 each time. With a +3 weapon (not unreasonable - and let's say it's +1 flaming and shocking), that's 2d6+22+1d6+1d6 per hit. Each hit is therefore averaging 36 damage.
If all three attacks hit, he's dealing 108 damage on average. His max is 138.
That's with one feat.
What did you expect from an 11th level full-BAB class?
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can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
At 11th level, a 2H barbarian can easily have a raging STR of 26, power attacking three times for 2d6+21 each time. With a +3 weapon (not unreasonable - and let's say it's +1 flaming and shocking), that's 2d6+22+1d6+1d6 per hit. Each hit is therefore averaging 36 damage.
If all three attacks hit, he's dealing 108 damage on average. His max is 138.
That's with one feat.
What did you expect from an 11th level full-BAB class?
This, 100 damage isnt outrageous at 11th level for a character built primarily for damage, and the fact that it is a touch attack is almost irrelavent at that level except possibly for the 2nd and 3rd attacks, because the highest bab attacks will likely have enough of a bonus to hit most cr appropriate targets ona roll of a 2 or 3.
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I think that at higher levels, gunslingers have a massive problem with AC since they only get light armor and need to stay close to get the touch attack.
Also, I bet fighters or rangers still do more damage with Manyshot.
A local PFS elf ranger hit 80-something once at 6th or 7th level.
At 11th level, let's see...
Rapid Shot (+1 attack), Manyshot (+1 arrow), Deadly Aim (+6 damage per arrow), assume 14 STR and appropriate composite bow (+2 damage per arrow) and he had Favored Enemy: Human (+6 per arrow against humans, and humans are everywhere in PFS) and we'll assume a +3 bow...
So we've got each arrow hitting for 1d8+17, at least against humans.
And we've got five arrows.
So 5d8+85 damage for a full-attack at 11th level. That's 107 average damage, without breaking a sweat.
There is a 6th level tank gunslinger in our group. I am not entirely sure he is following all the rules correctly (but I'm trying to not be the rules police). But he does do a pretty amazing amount of consistent damage. Mostly because it is ranged-touch attacks.
The bows have more POTENTIAL damage. But what I've seen in practice, is that they miss 1/3 to 1/2 the time. Whereas the gunslinger seems to miss well under 1/4 the time.
can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
At 11th level, a 2H barbarian can easily have a raging STR of 26, power attacking three times for 2d6+21 each time. With a +3 weapon (not unreasonable - and let's say it's +1 flaming and shocking), that's 2d6+22+1d6+1d6 per hit. Each hit is therefore averaging 36 damage.
If all three attacks hit, he's dealing 108 damage on average. His max is 138.
That's with one feat.
What did you expect from an 11th level full-BAB class?
Yes, and that barbarian is standing in the thick of things trading blows. He's actually at risk.
Plus you forget the 'if all attacks hit'. He's going against real AC, not touch AC and the gap between those two only grows with level. Take a look a high CR creatures, and while they often have some high ACs, they have laughable touch ACs. The ability to target touch AC pretty much means deadly aim becomes a freebie.
I'll probably burn some time later comparing DPR of a two handed barb vs. a pistolero build. I'm pretty sure the barb will lose out.
So 5d8+85 damage for a full-attack at 11th level. That's 107 average damage, without breaking a sweat.
Yes, that's 107 average damage without bothering to see if they all hit, which makes the calculation utterly meaningless. Until you factor in actual expected values for damage (involving to hit %), throwing around numbers is pointless.
This is where the touch AC thing becomes pretty important.
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Yes, and that barbarian is standing in the thick of things trading blows. He's actually at risk.
Keep in mind that a firearm only targets Touch AC while within the first range increment (which is only 20ft for a double-barreled pistol), and lots of level-appropriate baddies are going to have significant reach. If the gunslinger wasn't "at risk", then he should've not only been targeting normal AC, but also raking range penalties.
Plus you forget the 'if all attacks hit'. He's going against real AC, not touch AC and the gap between those two only grows with level. Take a look a high CR creatures, and while they often have some high ACs, they have laughable touch ACs. The ability to target touch AC pretty much means deadly aim becomes a freebie.
See above. To get that advantage, he has to be close to the enemies.
See also: archers.
I'll probably burn some time later comparing DPR of a two handed barb vs. a pistolero build. I'm pretty sure the barb will lose out.
Don't forget to notice who has to spend more resources to get the DPR. The barbarian I suggested spent one feat and has a sword. The gunslinger's probably going to need more feats, his weapon's more expensive, he has to pay for ammunition, etc.
Well you pretty much said "No matter what anyone here says, my mind is made up on that the gunslinger does too much damage".
You say the Barbarian is in the thick of things and therefore more at risk. That's true. They also have better armor, more HPs and all kind of other stuff to help them in that situation.
On the other hand if a gunslinger ever gets involved in melee, he's in serious, serious trouble.
Touch AC only works in the first range increment I believe, which means 10 or 20 ft for most pistols. If they're further away they target normal AC. If he's that close, I would argue the gunslinger is quite at risk as well.
If the DM decides to leave him alone and just shoot stuff, well of course it seems overpowered then.
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Also the touch only happens in the first range so at 20ft or less for double pistols, anything big with some reach could put a smackdown on him if he didn't kill it in one turn.
You can spend grit points to attack against touch AC beyond first range; that's a reasonable tactic for the first round of combat for a gunslinger with a decent grit pool. If there's a good chance of a critical hit (which regains a grit point) it's even more worthwhile.
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Yes, and that barbarian is standing in the thick of things trading blows. He's actually at risk.
Nobody targets archers in your games? That's pretty standard in my experience. At least, if they happen to be doing the most damage.
I'll probably burn some time later comparing DPR of a two handed barb vs. a pistolero build. I'm pretty sure the barb will lose out.
I wouldn't be. A decently built Barbarian with Furious Focus and Power Attack is nasty. Adding +20 or so more on each hit than the Gunslinger matters quite a bit.
Oh, and don't forget to compare them vs, say, DR 10 enemies (hardly uncommon at 11th level, and hurt the Gunslinger's DPR quite a bit more than the Barbarian's).
...
Gunslingers are really Feat intensive, and misfires potentially screw their DPR all to hell, necessitating their use of what amount to +1 weapons that cost as much as +3 weapons (and reduce or remove that chance) if they really want to do what you're talking about.
It also costs them around 6 GP a shot, which adds up, and is nothing to sneeze at.
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It's not so much gunslinger itself as it is the gun rules themselves that are broken. Being able to give the middle finger to just about every rule of ranged combat is stupidly overpowered and poorly conceived. Why can't the Alchemist use Deadly Aim with his bombs or rogue use sneak attack with splash weapons again? Oh right, because those poor sobs don't get to play by their own set of rules.
Yes, and that barbarian is standing in the thick of things trading blows. He's actually at risk.Keep in mind that a firearm only targets Touch AC while within the first range increment (which is only 20ft for a double-barreled pistol), and lots of level-appropriate baddies are going to have significant reach. If the gunslinger wasn't "at risk", then he should've not only been targeting normal AC, but also raking range penalties.
Plus you forget the 'if all attacks hit'. He's going against real AC, not touch AC and the gap between those two only grows with level. Take a look a high CR creatures, and while they often have some high ACs, they have laughable touch ACs. The ability to target touch AC pretty much means deadly aim becomes a freebie.See above. To get that advantage, he has to be close to the enemies.
See also: archers.
I'll probably burn some time later comparing DPR of a two handed barb vs. a pistolero build. I'm pretty sure the barb will lose out.Don't forget to notice who has to spend more resources to get the DPR. The barbarian I suggested spent one feat and has a sword. The gunslinger's probably going to need more feats, his weapon's more expensive, he has to pay for ammunition, etc.
Leaving ammo costs aside, Ill give you comparable DPR for a two handed barbarian and pistolero (and I didn't even bother with the double barreled pistol shooting both barrels).
Target is a Derghodaemon, which is middling in AC for CR 12. That's something you might see at level 11 in a group of targets. AC is 27, touch AC is 14.
Barbarian 85.4
Pistolero 124.62
Had I included the double barrel effect, thus increasing the rate of fire by double at a significant accuracy penalty. However it is still against Touch AC.
Doing that 124 per round requires using alchemical rounds, but you can drop the 4th shot which has expected damage of 22 or so. Then you can use normal rounds which are appreciably cheaper.
The Barbarian has an appreciably lower AC (16 vs 29). The gunslinger does not provoke AOEs from shooting in melee.
Gunslinger build
GUNSLINGER CR 10
Male Human (Kellid) Gunslinger (Pistolero) 11
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +14
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DEFENSE
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AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +2 deflection, +4 dodge)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +13, Ref +18, Will +8
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Gauntlet (from Armor) +9/+4/-1 (1d3/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +9/+4/-1 (1d3/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Reliable Pistol, Double Barrel +15/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+16/20/x4)
Spell-Like Abilities Light (At will)
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 20/24, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +11; CMB +11; CMD 28
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Deft Shootist Deed, Dodge, Gunsmithing, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload: Pistol, Rapid Shot, Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly +3d6 (Signature Deed)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +11, Climb +1, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (Engineering) +5, Knowledge (Local) +15, Perception +14, Ride +8, Stealth +4, Survival +14, Swim +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Hallit
SQ Bleeding Wound (Ex), Covering Shot (Ex), Dead Shot (Ex), Deadeye (Ex), Deeds, Expert Loading (Ex), Grit (Ex), Gun Training +7: Pistol (Ex), Gun Training +7: Pistol (Ex), Gunslinger Initiative (Ex), Gunslinger's Dodge (Ex), Lightning Reload (Ex), Pistol Training (+8, misfire value -2) (Ex), Pistol-whip (Ex), Quick Clear (Ex), Targeting (Ex), Twin Shot Knockdown (Ex), Up Close and Deadly +3d6 (Signature Deed), Utility Shot, Wayfinder, Standard (1 @ 0 lbs)
Combat Gear +1 Reliable Pistol, Double Barrel, Celestial Armor; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Handy Haversack (1 @ 41 lbs), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ring of Protection, +2, Wayfinder, Standard (1 @ 0 lbs)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bleeding Wound (Ex) At 11th level, when the gunslinger hits a living creature with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point as a free action to have that attack deal extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the gunslinger's Dexterity modifier. Alte
Covering Shot (Ex) At 7th level, as an immediate reaction, when a gunslinger misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to pin down the target of that missed attack. The pinned-down target is treated as if it were entangled for 1 round. A gunslinger canno
Dead Shot (Ex) At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based
Deadeye (Ex) At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm's first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deeds Gunslingers spend grit points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the gunslinger some momentary bonus or effect, but there are some that provide longerlasting effects. Some deeds stay in effect as long as a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point. The
Deft Shootist Deed Deft Shootist (Ex): Spend 1 grit point as a free action. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when shooting or reloading your firearm until the end of your turn.
Expert Loading (Ex) At 11th level, whenever the gunslinger rolls a misfire with a gun that has the broken condition, she can spend 1 grit point to keep the gun from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
Grit (Ex) A gunslinger makes her mark upon the world with daring deeds. Some gunslingers claim they belong to a mystical way of the gun, but it's more likely that the volatile nature of firearms simply prunes the unlucky and careless from their ranks. Whatever
Gun Training +7: Pistol (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when
Gun Training +7: Pistol (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when
Gunslinger Initiative (Ex) At 3rd level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the following benefits. First, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Furthermore, if she has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the firearm i
Gunslinger's Dodge (Ex) At 1st level, the gunslinger gains an uncanny knack for getting out of the way of ranged attacks. When a ranged attack is made against the gunslinger, she can spend 1 grit point to move 5 feet as an immediate action; doing so grants the gunslinger a
Gunsmithing You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.
Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith's kit, you can create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft c
Lightning Reload (Ex) At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both),
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Pistol Training (+8, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every
Pistol-whip (Ex) At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Quick Clear (Ex) At 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. The gunslinger must have at least 1 grit point to perform t
Rapid Reload: Pistol You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly +3d6 (Signature Deed) Pick a deed that you have access to and that you must spend grit to perform. You can perform this deed for 1 fewer grit point (minimum 0). If the amount of grit needed to perform the deed is reduced to 0, you can perform this deed for the normal acti
Targeting (Ex) At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed bod
Twin Shot Knockdown (Ex) At 11th level, when the pistolero hits a single target with two or more one-handed firearm attacks during her turn, she can spend 1 grit point to knock the target prone. She can choose to spend the grit point after the attacks are made. This deed rep
Up Close and Deadly +3d6 (Signature Deed) At 1st level, when the pistolero hits a target with a one-handed firearm that is not making a scatter shot, she can spend 1 grit point to deal 1d6 points of extra damage on a hit. If she misses with the attack, she grazes the target, dealing half the
Utility Shot At 3rd level, if the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can perform all of the following utility shots. Each utility shot can be applied to any single attack with a firearm, but the gunslinger must declare the utility shot she is using before
Wayfinder, Standard (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Barbarian build
BRUTE CR 10
Male Dwarf Barbarian 11
CN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 7, flat-footed 14 (+9 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 159 (11d12+77)
Fort +18, Ref +9, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training, Eater of Magic (1/rage), Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15), Trap Sense +3; DR 2/—
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Furious Adamantine Dwarven dorn-dergar +23/+18/+13 (1d10+25/20/x2) and
+1 Furious, Keen Nodachi +23/+18/+13 (1d10+25/15-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +20/+15/+10 (1d3+15/20/x2)
Special Attacks Witch Hunter (+3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18/28, Dex 14, Con 16/24, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +11; CMB +20 (+24 Sundering); CMD 27 (29 vs. Sunder)
Feats Furious Focus, Greater Sunder, Improved Sunder, Power Attack -3/+6, Raging Vitality, Steel Soul
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +20, Craft (Weapons) +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Knowledge (Nature) +15, Perception +15, Ride +3, Stealth -1, Survival +15, Swim +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Undercommon
SQ Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Greed, Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects, Hatred, Rage (38 rounds/day) (Ex), Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex), Ring of Evasion, Slow and Steady, Spell Sunder (Su), Stability, Stonecunning +2, Superstition +4 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Furious Adamantine Dwarven dorn-dergar, +1 Furious, Keen Nodachi, +3 Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Handy Haversack (empty), Ring of Evasion
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affe
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greater Sunder +2 to Sunder, excess damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Improved Sunder You Sunder at +4 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 15+.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (38 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Ring of Evasion This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Superstition +4 (Ex) +4 save vs. magic while raging.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Witch Hunter (+3) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.
Now the barbarian is built to tear up casters, which seems like a good use of barbarian rage powers, but that's just me. However his damage output is only about 70% that of the gunslinger.
Now if you can twink the barbarian harder, feel free, but he will still lag behind because of the touch AC issue(and yes he can be twinked harder, but the approach was the same on both since I didn't start with a 20 on either nor dumpstat).
I think that people forget that the major tradeoff of Ranged vs. Melee goes something like this:
Melee: Does decent damage, but more importantly acts as a big damn shield for the rest of the party, unless the enemy wants to go THROUGH them and take an AOO. Furthermore, feats like Cleave/Great Cleave make them an area threat.
Ranged: MUCH better consistent damage to a single target. Cannot act as a battlefield presence the way a Melee Character can. This means that while they're DPR machines, they cannot defend the party.
I love my gunslingers and their damage machine prowess. But the Barbarian will always have the advantage of defending the rest of the party by being a big, beefy wall that stands between them and their enemies.
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@drbuzzard: You gave your barbarian a weapon he doesn't need, made his weapon keen instead of just grabbing Improved Critical (to get a +2 Furious Weapon), and then complained about low AC when you have all that money you spent on other stuff you didn't need.
Oh, and you statted up a Pistolero, but negated to mention the effect of barbarian archetypes on damage and durability (like the Invulnerable Rager, or various totem powers [I'm looking at you, Beast Totem]).
I'm not trying to say that the Barbarian is absolutely superior, but you give him way less credit than he deserves.
@drbuzzard: You gave your barbarian a weapon he doesn't need, made his weapon keen instead of just grabbing Improved Critical (to get a +2 Furious Weapon), and then complained about low AC when you have all that money you spent on other stuff you didn't need.
Oh, and you statted up a Pistolero, but negated to mention the effect of barbarian archetypes on damage and durability (like the Invulnerable Rager, or various totem powers [I'm looking at you, Beast Totem]).
I'm not trying to say that the Barbarian is absolutely superior, but you give him way less credit than he deserves.
The extra weapon on the barbarian is not counted towards the wealth total. It's supplementary (and costs the same as the one which replaced it). I just used a barbarian build I had sitting around, and figured swapping in the nodachi would increase the DPR.
Beast Totem, as I understand it mostly gives the wonders of Pounce and it's gift. I'm assuming the barbarian has a full attack here, so that's a wash.
So was the character in question actually standing within the first range increment?
Yes. He was careful to maneuver within 20 feet before shooting.
That's a terrible barbarian build for DPR. You've got a whole 2 feats and 1 rage power dedicated to actually doing damage. No wonder you think the barbarian sucks. You built the gunslinger for the sole purpose of doing damage and the barbarian to sunder and saving throws.
Feel free to offer up a cheesier barbarian and provide a DPR to go with it.
The barbarian was designed to kill casters, and I tossed him in this because I had the build sitting around. I imagine it could be cheesed out somewhat better, but not enough to surpass the pistolero. This is especially true if I count in the double barrel effect.
He was somewhat inspired by the AM BARBARIAN stuff of course.
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Beast Totem, as I understand it mostly gives the wonders of Pounce and it's gift. I'm assuming the barbarian has a full attack here, so that's a wash.
Ah, but what's the Gunslinger doing when he's moving into that 20' sweet spot? Sure, people have mentioned a feat/ability where you can spend a grit point to fire at Touch AC regardless of distance (I admit, I can't find it), but that's a VERY limited use ability relative to a Barbarian who is, likely, raging all day (as far as combat is concerned). Pounce accounts for much more than you give it credit for, not to mention the fact that Mr. Barbarian likely has an archetype or other rage powers that up his survivability and/or damage ability, and I still think you'd be pleased with how effective he is. Or, at least, that the Gunslinger may be doing more situational damage, but roughly equal damage overall.
This is especially true if I count in the double barrel effect.Remembering the -4 penalty to both shots?
Yes, I did read the rules. It was included into the DPR spreadsheet.
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I'm just going to chime in and agree on the utterly poor design of that Barbarian, and not just on DPR. Hell, he can get +5 AC just by ditching the Ring of Evasion! (Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, up Armor to +4).
That's off the top of my head, mind you.
And the Beast Totem line of powers would also increase his AC by another +4, as well as giving him Pounce.
Your attack numbers are also off: 11+9+3+3=26, not 23 (remember Furious Focus).
I assume there are numerous other things I'm not seeing, but those are just on a casual once-over.
Ah, but what's the Gunslinger doing when he's moving into that 20' sweet spot? Sure, people have mentioned a feat/ability where you can spend a grit point to fire at Touch AC regardless of distance (I admit, I can't find it), but that's a VERY limited use ability relative to a Barbarian who is, likely, raging all day (as far as combat is concerned). Pounce accounts for much more than you give it credit for, not to mention the fact that Mr. Barbarian likely has an archetype or other rage powers that up his survivability and/or damage ability, and I still think you'd be pleased with how effective he is. Or, at least, that the Gunslinger may be doing more situational damage, but roughly equal damage overall.Beast Totem, as I understand it mostly gives the wonders of Pounce and it's gift. I'm assuming the barbarian has a full attack here, so that's a wash.
I'm not discounting the effectiveness of Pounce. I'm saying that for this DPR calculation, it is a wash. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I went back and re-treaked the barbarian just a bit. I gave him a +2 furious weapon and improved critical feat. I gave him a starting 18 strength (30 total, same bonuses you gave him), and I gave him weapon focus. The attack round was:
BAB: 11/6/1 Str +10/+15 - weapon +4/+4 - power attack -3/+9 - Reckless Abandon +3/+0 - Witch hunter +0/+3 - Weapon focus +1/+0
+26/+21+16: 1d10 + 31 Crit on 15 - 20
95% * 36.5 + 30% * 95% * 36.5 = 45.0775
75% * 36.5 + 30% * 75% * 36.5 = 35.5875
50% * 36.5 + 30% * 50% * 36.5 = 23.725DPR: 104.39
Much better than you had and with further room to be tweeked by an expert.
I will also take this time to point out that the appropriate AC for a monster that's a CR 12 is 27, exactly as you said.
You know I forgot to include witch hunter against the Daemon. Sloppy of me.
That pushes my guy up to 93 DPR which is certainly better.
Though you have certainly shown my barb was poorly damage twinked (as I said, he is a mage killer, so his saves are stupid high).
But then we still have the issue of the double barrel pistol and DPR of 209.
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Oh, yet another "Gunslinger is OP" thread.
Short answer : no it isn't.
Long answer : the Search feature actually has a purpose if you are really searching facts over approval. For any discussion on TWFing with two DB pistols : with full damage-oriented ranged combat feats at level 12, I'll spare you the search and say that your BAB before applying Dex or weapon enhancement is +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9.
Standing close with a ranged weapon you totally rely on usually is a bad but rewarding idea, even with close combat feats to not provoke when shooting. Combat maneuvers or Dex damage will easily ruin the day.