Off the top of my head, they get their dex to damage with all one handed firearms instead of one firearm every 5 levels. They get an extra +1 to damage every 5 levels. They get a +d6 damage deed. Unlike 2H firearms, 1Hs can be dual wielded.
Basically, they give up a bit of effective range for extra damage potential, and actually gives them more weapon choices than the base class.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
1) Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol).
2) She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm.
3) Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4.
4) Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th),
5) the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
1) Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms.
2) She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier,
3) and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4.
4) Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th),
5) the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1.
6) At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.
1) Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms.
2) She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier,
3) and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4.
4) Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th),
5) the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1.
6) At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.
7) This replaces firearm training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
As you can see from this breakdown, all three of these are almost exactly the same ability. The only differences are #1 (choose a specific type vs one handed firearms vs two handed firearms), #5 (choose another type vs +1 damage with the first type), and #6 (which the basic gun training doesn't give). The structure and the primary bonuses are the same for all three. Saying that Pistol Training stacks with Gun Training, while Musket Training doesn't, just makes no sense.
Yes, it should be explicitly called out. FAQ this thread and maybe it'll get errated. But it's clear that it was intended to not stack.
Actually, one of the guiding principles of Pathfinder design is basically that "if it's almost identical, it should be identical."
The intent of the ability is that they add their Dexterity modifier only once. And it was also the intent that pistoleros didn't get gun training in other firearms. Y'know, because they're a specialist in pistols. Not in other guns. Just pistols. This is clearly just an oversight of them forgetting to place "This replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4."
The extra feat that the musket master gets is to make the archetype work without imposing a necessary feat tax and put them on more equal footing with one-handed firearms.
@Bobson, your response is exactly what I'm talking about.
The two abilities between the Musketeer and the Pistolero are almost identical... except a Musketeer GETS A BONUS FEAT!!!
Pistolero does NOT get a bonus feat. The archetypes shuffle around and do some minor deed replacement. Other than that, the Musketeer comes out ahead against the Pistolero due to the feat. It is my assessment that they were meant to stack. That getting a double-dex was indeed the Pistolero's way of balancing with an extra feat.
The balance is the fact that the Pistolero's ability does in-fact stack. Just because the two abilities are almost identical, does not mean they should be identical.
You have to look at the two overall. Yes, the Musket Master gets a bonus feat, but consider the deeds:
Pistolero:
"Hit touch AC beyond first range increment" -> "Deal bonus precision damage, even if you miss"
"Deliberately miss, and the target becomes flatfooted" -> "Hit touch AC beyond first range increment."
"AoE fear effect" (at 15th level, with a save) -> "Knockdown effect" (at 11th level, no save or CMB check)
Musket Master:
"Gain a small bonus against a ranged attack" -> "Increase range increment by 10'"
"A bunch of very situational utilities" -> "Reload faster"
I think the Pistolero's deed substitutions are much better than the Musket Master's.
And besides - if they were meant to stack, how does "and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4" stack with itself?
JGL, your 2nd to last paragraph is asking for official errata or faq.
Your last paragraph asks for any help regarding what's enticing about the archetype, and that's what I and others were responding to. This does need a FAQ, although the obvious fix seems obvious.
Weapons are certainly not supposed to be balanced against each other. Think about falcatas and fauchards and composite longbows vs picks and tridents and shortbows.
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Not an expert in gunslingers, but if you get Gun training and Pistol training at the same time, it would mean that:
- at level 5 you will get both Pistol training and the "skill increase with one-handed firearms" and "Gun training with one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol)."
- at level 9 a +1 with one handed firearms (pistol training) and get the gun training bonus with another firearm.
and so on.
You are trading the possibility to train 1 (one, single) weapon at level 5 to get better results with it with the ability to do that with 7 (seven) different weapons out of 15, and then you pretend to get the normal benefit as a added bonus because the bonus you get is too small.
Then as your archetype is too weak you pretend to stack 2 bonuses that came from the same kind of source, a form of weapon training, to get double dexterity bonus to damage with pistols.
And as further benefit you pretend to get a +1 every four levels in 7 weapons (all the one handed firearms) and a new weapon to which you should get the gun training benefit.
Maybe now you see how foolish it is?
Even if you do think that the extra feat makes Musket Master superior to Pistolero (it really, really doesn't), and you ignore the fact that Musket Master is trying to empower a style that's typically much inferior to begin with so you'd expect it to do more, you'd surely agree that the delta between "Pistolero that doesn't get to double up" and "Musket master" is VASTLY smaller than the delta between "Musket Master" and "Pistolero that does get to double up" - so if you're basing the argument on "this makes one archetype better than another archetype", that's actually an incredibly strong argument for Pistolero NOT getting to double up.
I kind of want to know this too. More because if it does replace gun training (and i can see how one would think it does) I can't mix is with mysterious stranger which also replaces gun training. I could care less about the damage stacking or not. Even if it does I am not certain if having one type of pistol being doubled up is going to break things completely, but I will confess to not having done the math.
I know this is pretty late, but they do stack. Pistoleros were meant to do more damage due to the shorter range.
I disagree with that assessment. I would like this to get FAQ'd but it seems pretty obvious that it should replace gun training.
I'm pretty sure it's a general rule that you can't add the same stat to damage twice...
