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Yep, this is to you.
I'm a single parent of two kids. I'm also a gamer, and have been since elementary school. I know that when my kids show interest in something, I like to check it out first. I like to see what I'm getting them into. Since I frequently check official forums, I figure that some of you will end up here, trying to decide whether this RPG hobby is something you want to get your kids into. Maybe you want to find out whether this hobby has any real-world value. Maybe you're like me, and grew up during that raging paranoia of the early 80s that had parents thinking that a game would have their kids hiding in the sewers and sacrificing to dark gods. Then again, maybe you don't know the first thing about it. Like I said, this is for you.
What RPGs are: They are, essentially, interactive storytelling games. Think of them as a mix of telling ghost stories around a campfire and improvisational theater. One person (called the game master, or GM) is in charge. He has an outline for a story. He sets the stage by describing the situation and the players take part in the story by describing their responses. Conversations with characters in the story are simply acted out between the players and the GM. If you imagine a game of cops and robbers for big kids (and yes, even adults) you won't be too far off the mark.
All those papers and dice? The papers list equipment and abilities every character in the story has access to, and they rate each character's strengths and weaknesses with a number. A powerful warrior might have a strength rated 18, but an intelligence rated a mere 9. The numbers are used by essentially (simplifying for clarity) adding them to the roll of a die. The higher the rating, the higher the result of a die roll. 18+(1 to 20) is usually higher than 9+(1 to 20.) The higher the result of a die roll, the more effective an attempt to use an ability or skill is. That warrior's attempts to use his 18 strength will be much more effective than his attempts to use his 9 intelligence.
Ok, now to the nitty gritty. Now that we know what these games are, what do they actually do to your kids? I'm going to use myself as an example here, mainly because I know myself well and keep myself close at hand. I rolled my first 20-sided die when I was nine years old, and am still rolling as I inch ever closer to the big four-oh. Here is what it did to me and how it affected my life:
~I got constant practice with on-the-fly mathematics. This is obviously less relevant as an adult, but when I first started, the numbers I was adding and subtracting a hundred times a game were as complex as what I was getting in school, and I had to learn to do them quickly, accurately, and in my head.
~On a similar note, the game introduced me to the concepts of probability and statistics. Trust me, after you've played for a while the difference between a 5 in 20 chance and a 7 in 20 chance becomes significant. Is it worth it to take a chance on that slippery rope now when it makes it 15% harder to succeed, or is 15% too much to risk? Can your kids answer that? They will after playing RPGs for a while.
~They got me to read. I don't just mean I was reading the rules, I mean that I was reading everything, and constantly. You never saw me without a book in hand. By the time I was ten years old I was pouring through novels like mad, and this was in a time before Harry Potter, when 'young adult' fantasy novels weren't available. Along those same lines...
~...They got me to study, and to love studying. I'm not kidding. Playing and loving a game full of exotic cultures and medieval settings made me want to know more about those things. I started studying in elementary school, continued with courses in college, and still study and learn every chance I get. What am I talking about? These games led me directly to study, at various times: Art and art history, music history, ancient and medieval history, social and cultural anthropology, philosophy, military history, archaeology, mythology, folklore, literature, sociology, zoology/botany/biology, linguistics, language (I still have a smattering of ancient Greek and Latin), numerous historical crafts and skills, and more. I have numerous bookshelves filled with everything from medieval histories to Shakespeare, from mythology to language texts. Being introduced to a fantasy world based on our own creates a hunger to understand, and that can blossom into a love and fascination with our own world that last a lifetime.
~A strong imagination. That may not sound like much as an adult, but a strong, practiced imagination is the number one tool for problem solving and innovation. Problem solving is all about looking at a problem and thinking of a solution that can solve that problem. That's called imagination. Innovation - the ability to find new approaches and methods - is an invaluable tool in almost any profession or industry. In a society that tends to downplay imagination in adults, a tool like RPGs that constantly and actively exercises one's imagination can be a huge advantage.
~A social life. All of my best friends growing up were people I met through gaming. That's true as an adult as well. It may seem counter intuitive, but you can't game and stay a loner. I doesn't work. You meet great people in gaming. The game requires imagination and a healthy intellect, and the people with those qualities are the ones you end up spending your free time with. In fact, I met my wife and the mother of my kids when she was a player in one of my games in high school. We may be divorced now, but we were together for nearly 15 years. That isn't bad for a hobby.
As to the bad stuff? Well, I didn't ever sacrifice any of my friends to any dark gods, although when I was a teenager, I did sacrifice a great deal of junk food to a dark gullet.
Anyway, my kids are eight and ten. I got them the Beginner's Box a couple of weeks ago, and we'll be playing our first game together this week. After all, I have to look to their future, don't I? What better way to do that than to introduce them to something that will, essentially, trick them into doing extra, voluntary homework for the rest of their lives?
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Thank you, Greybird.
I'm going to be running Pathfinder Beginner Box at my son's school in April and May as part of their "Sharing the Gift" program where teachers and parents teach children to do something that they have always been good at and are fond of.
I may just have to copy and put your messageboard post on the poster I'm going to be making to advertise by class.
- Rich
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My kids got interested in role playing games watching us play Runequest with our friends, so I first started them on Runequest. After a few months, "Gamers: Dorkness Rising" inspired them to want to play D&D, and 4th edition was so execrable I went with Pathfinder. I've been running Curse of the Crimson Throne with my two kids (7 and 10 when we started) since August, and we recently finished Book 5 (Scarwall).
Not only do they love it, but my 10-year-old has started:
(a) Memorizing the Bestiaries and choosing creatures he would like to play as
(b) Making up his own on-the-fly scenarios for his school friends and/or his brother
He'd rather be curled up with a Bestiary than in front of a video game.
For his birthday week, my 7-year-old photocopied his character sheet and brought it to school to describe his adventures to his classmates. This was the thing he "most wanted to share" with his classmates.
That about says it all right there.
Graybird, very nice. Some things I would add...
Creating and running campaigns is excellent training for creating presentations and delivering them to peers or even to superiors. You learn how to organize your information into something that makes sense and can be communicated to others.
Providing leadership for a group of imaginary heroes is excellent practice for team activities. You learn how to divide and conquer, how to identify team members' strengths and weaknesses and how to motivate others to achieve a specific goal.
And finally, the role playing skills developed in games like this provide an excellent opportunity to learn about problem resolution, group communication dynamics and how to handle setbacks without giving up.
I have always thought that tabletop RPGs are one of the very best ways to train people to be doers and leaders. And my experience in corporate America for 30 years now has done nothing but convince me that I was right.
Really enjoyed the post Greybird!
He'd rather be curled up with a Bestiary than in front of a video game.
I picked up the BB which we have yet to play. However, I did pick up some of the 'main' books including the Bestiary as well. My son asked if he could check it out. I told him that with his memory he wasn't allowed to because he'd know all the monsters and they'd never be any surprises. ;-) Of course, I did actually relent because it got him reading the books. :evilgrin:
Take care,
Derek
I also review products specifically for Child appropriateness, as I game with my 12 year old twins. For example, Dresden Files RPG, like its namesake line of novels isn't really designed for younger children. I cover whether the offending material is images, themes or even language (Cthulhu Tech is a language offender).
Uhh... Are you just here promoting your blog?
Take care,
Harry
I think the single most important part of rpgs like pathfinder for both kids and adults, is that it is a form of entertainment that is mentally engaging. It is absolutely vital that we keep our minds working on a regular basis, thinking about new things, creating new connections in our brains.
Roleplaying Games invite active thinking in using a complex set of rules, to create an interesting story. It is an active media, instead of passive like most of our media. Even video games which are interactive are far more restrictive. Even the most open video games can only do what someone else has thought of and built into the game. In a roleplaying game your ideas take center stage, and if you arent creative and actively thinking about it, the game doesn't proceed.
Uhh... Are you just here promoting your blog?
Take care,
Harry
No, I'm a long time poster on the forum, but that particular post, yes, it's a resource for parents to check out.
If parents find this post, I want them to be able to check out additional resources.
No, I'm a long time poster on the forum, but that particular post, yes, it's a resource for parents to check out.
If parents find this post, I want them to be able to check out additional resources.
Oh. Okay. Just curious, but why post with a different account?
BTW: Your link takes me to http://paizo.com/forums/www.epicrpgblog.blogspot.com
is that correct?
Take care,
Harry
Outstanding post, Greybird! I recently started a new campaign with my college freshman son, his friends, his girlfriend, and amazingly (We live in small town Arkansas, so it IS amazing) his youth pastor and his wife. Of course, this is before I read your post, but I cited every "good thing" on your list. He's thinking of having a game night as a youth outreach program now. I'm knocking on 49's door, and this was quite a surprise to me, having come through the same wars in the 80s as you.
Roll on!
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I am running my first BB adventure for students at my school tomorrow. It gives a group of kids that may not fit in with other groups a place to belong and in high school that makes a huge difference.
here's another rpg that we've enjoyed...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/91648110/Holy-Lands-RPG-Light-Edition-Rules
this is used in conjunction with the main rules...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/91647814/Holy-Lands-RPG-Light-Edition-Devil-Hunte rs-Manual
more docs can be found here
http://www.scribd.com/holylandsrpg
I have a three year old daughter who loves telling stories (we have Rory's Story dice, tons of family fun). My wife wants to game, so I think we're going to start a family game in the next year or so.
I'm currently on the lookout for Pathfinder adventures that I can run them through that do not involve much of the world of Pathfinder's religions. any suggestions would be appreciated!
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My gaming group consists of me, one of my brothers, and five of our kids (ages 9 to 13). It is a lot of fun. One adult will GM, the other plays in the party with the kids. We are currently playing in the Rise of the Runelords adventure, and while some things are edited out or toned down it is a lot of fun. The kids get to play on the same team with an uncle/parent, sibling(s), and cousin(s). It also helps them to practice cause-and-effect, understanding motives/rationale (a big part of roleplaying), and other group-play benefits.
We do let people keep their XP and treasure while they might change characters if they find that they do not like their current character. One player switched characters three times now (we started in June). It is hard for new players to get a character that they truly like (that fits their personal style). Also sometimes characters are kind of lame by comparison, like a Fighter Archer where there are two switch-hitter (swap between bow and blade) Rangers. The Archer player is now a really tough Dwarf with +5 to his saves versus spells (thanks to Trait: Glory of Old and Feat: Steel Soul). The point is to play loose with some of the usual constraints and just have fun with it. We don't necessarily worry about continuity. :)
I stole this and put it on my FB page very informative. I also put a link to this post.
Since this thread has been resurrected, I thought I'd update. My kids are now 9 and 12, and still RPG'ing. In fact, my 9-year-old is actively contributing to our Second Darkness campaign journal! He's dictating to me, but I'm typing what he says verbatim, and he's doing all the corrections.
So tell me, how is getting a kid so enthusiastic about something that he WANTS to write and tell stories a bad thing?
my daughter is nine and started when she was seven and she is having a blast!
It's great to read folks' updates! Folks might be interested in my gaming community that is comprised mostly of nine to thirteen year olds. On our website, you can find their character bios under "Heroes" and their session writeups.
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Started my daughter (12) and her friends with a weekly Pathfinder encounter or set of encounters a couple years ago. Finished an entire campaign, applying more and more rules and more complex interactions as they went along. Played all the way to 16th level.
Of the group, my daughter was the only one interested in role playing. The rest wanted a combat board game, and got tired of it if they went more than 15 minutes without combat.
Now, I've started a new game with my daughter and one of my adult players, who also likes role playing. It was a treat to sit there and watch the two of them RP their characters interacting for a good 45 minutes without worrying about when the next combat was going to be.
To me, this is half the fun of an RPG, and when you get two or more players willing to actually get into character, it can make the times when they do get into combat a lot more meaningful. Of course, especially with young people, there will always be people who want nothing more than to move pieces around a board and roll dice, and that's fine. But it's great to see new role-players blossom.
This thread is fantastic! I found Pathfinder earlier this year when looking for a gaming group for my son to join. I had given him my basic D&D books one weekend, and he devoured them, and was taking his little sister through mini dungeons by the end of the weekend. He and I joined a group running in our local comic shop, which has 3-4 regular adults and 2 kids - my son being the youngest at 12. We are in the 2nd book of the Carrion Crown AP, and he is having an absolute blast playing his elven ranger and wolf companion, and is intent on becoming an arcane archer. It's fun to watch him take such an interest in something I enjoyed through high school and college, and everyone in the party enjoys having him at the table. I admit to being as much of a gaming geek now as I was in college, and am thrilled to have the chance to not only start playing again, but also to do it with my son.
I hope, though, that he will eventually get together a group of his own peers and become a GM for them, and had been wondering how best to "pitch" Pathfinder to the parents, if they aren't already familiar with RPGs, and the thoughts and ideas that have been shared here are really helpful, and I will definitely be using them!
Well written!
I am happy to report one of my fellow gamers has brought his teenage son into our new Runelord session as a standard two-handed weapon goon meatshield (the best class to begin with) . Also, our DM has two boys that will no doubt be playing before they hit ten years old.
To the next generation *Raises a glass*
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Yep, this is to you.
I'm a single parent of two kids. I'm also a gamer, and have been since elementary school. I know that when my kids show interest in something, I like to check it out first. I like to see what I'm getting them into. Since I frequently check official forums, I figure that some of you will end up here, trying to decide whether this RPG hobby is something you want to get your kids into. Maybe you want to find out whether this hobby has any real-world value. Maybe you're like me, and grew up during that raging paranoia of the early 80s that had parents thinking that a game would have their kids hiding in the sewers and sacrificing to dark gods. Then again, maybe you don't know the first thing about it. Like I said, this is for you.
What RPGs are: They are, essentially, interactive storytelling games. Think of them as a mix of telling ghost stories around a campfire and improvisational theater. One person (called the game master, or GM) is in charge. He has an outline for a story. He sets the stage by describing the situation and the players take part in the story by describing their responses. Conversations with characters in the story are simply acted out between the players and the GM. If you imagine a game of cops and robbers for big kids (and yes, even adults) you won't be too far off the mark.
Thank You this is wat im talking about my brother got me into this game (starting with D&D starter box when 5) its perfectly fine
All those papers and dice? The papers list equipment and abilities every character in the story has access to, and they rate each character's strengths and weaknesses with a number. A powerful warrior might have a strength rated 18, but an intelligence rated a mere 9. The numbers are used by essentially (simplifying for clarity) adding them to the roll of a die. The higher the rating, the higher the result of a die roll. 18+(1 to 20) is usually higher than 9+(1 to 20.) The higher the result of a die roll, the more effective an attempt to use an ability or skill is. That warrior's attempts to use his 18 strength will be much more effective than his attempts to use his...
Great post, Greybird. I had a similar experience with my first D&D game; it ignited many interests that may otherwise have laid dormant. When my boys are older I plan to introduce them to the wonders of fantasy gaming via Pathfinder, too.
Enjoy your game this weekend. And keep us posted!
My daughter is only 11 months old but if she's interested in roleplaying games one day, I'll probably let her join our group as soon as she's able to understand it. But I'm curious to know what some of you do about the artwork and more mature elements.
Some of the art is obviously skewed to more adult audiences, including some of the iconic characters (esp. the sorcerer, the monk), and a number of monstrous humanoids in the Bestiary (dryad, succubus, etc.). I'm talking about the bare skin, chests and breasts and hips and come-hither poses. Monsters that are meant to lure and entice in order to kill the heroes. Heck, in the Beginner's Box there is a god that keeps from bearing all by just a few tendrils of smoke. Are any of you concerned about showing kids that artwork up? Do you cover up those pictures or not worry about it?
And there are evil deities, violent races, demons and devils, and things that go bump in the night. Anyone's kids ever get scared? I remember when I was a kid getting totally freaked out by pretty tame stuff (like the wolf/dog monster in Ghostbusters, believe it or not). Plus, the fact that some races are always X alignment bothers me. Isn't killing on sight every orc teaching intolerance and, I'll just say it, genocide?
Just interested in everyone's take on this. Thanks.
Well, with respect...there is some pretty messed-up stuff in this game. Zon-Kuthon? Lamashtu? Shax?
You know, I've been gaming over thirty years and I've never sacrificed any of my friends to dark gods , been involved in satanic rites, or encountered any of the type of things the ultra conservative relgious scaremongers claim, either.
Do you ever wonder if you're missing out?
In fact
I've seen a mention somewhere that the swedes did a formal investigation into roleplaying and concluded that far from being detrimental to children, it promoted literacy and numeracy, and was an excellent educational tool.
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My daughter is only 11 months old but if she's interested in roleplaying games one day, I'll probably let her join our group as soon as she's able to understand it. But I'm curious to know what some of you do about the artwork and more mature elements.
...
Just interested in everyone's take on this. Thanks.
My personal view is that below a certain level of maturity, the artwork is just pictures to kids. You need a certain level of knowledge to 'get' suggestive. You are likely to cause more problems by covering them up - you don't want to inadvertently teach kids that their bodies are shameful.
Kids love to be scared, but keep the level of detail set to 'cartoon'. No descriptions of pulsing arterial spray leaving a lacework legacy on the dungeon walls.
With morals/ethics, again keep it 'cartoon' until the kids ask questions or you think they are ready for the frank discussion, and then use it as a case-study to discuss whether killing goblins on sight is wrong.
I think in general, don't depict anything in the game that you aren't prepared to have a frank and detailed discussion of. With the caveat that, in my experience as a parent, you have to be prepared to have a no-holds-barred discussion about just about anything, just about anywhere.
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Well, with respect...there is some pretty messed-up stuff in this game. Zon-Kuthon? Lamashtu? Shax?
None of which are in the Beginner Box, which is what we're talking about.
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Some of the art is obviously skewed to more adult audiences, including some of the iconic characters (esp. the sorcerer, the monk), and a number of monstrous humanoids in the Bestiary (dryad, succubus, etc.). I'm talking about the bare skin, chests and breasts and hips and come-hither poses. Monsters that are meant to lure and entice in order to kill the heroes. Heck, in the Beginner's Box there is a god that keeps from bearing all by just a few tendrils of smoke. Are any of you concerned about showing kids that artwork up? Do you cover up those pictures or not worry about it?
For kids below the age of puberty, in my experience it's a non-issue. My 7-year old daughters (twins!) looked at the picture of Desna and the fact that she was unclothed was not even remarked upon. Their reaction was, "ooh, she's pretty! I love her wings! Can my character follow her?" For kids who are in puberty, the way you handle it is key. If you try to cover it up, they'll realize it's 'dirty' and snicker at it. If you just treat it as matter of fact, they'll take their cue from you.
My two cents on evil and genocide:
Those themes and elements can be altered or completely left out of the game if you design it that way as GM. If you wish, your kids can have the perfect fairy tale, uncluttered by questionable morality. It's all in how you set it up.
Just to be clear, my goal is not to paint a picture-perfect fairy tale. That doesn't reflect the real world or prepare kids to live in it. In the real world, genocide and violence exist, so they would exist in my games (tempered according to the maturity of my players).
But what I don't want to see happen is this: My daughter's PC becomes an goblin-slayer and so she's subtly taught that it's okay to make snap-judgments based on someone's appearance. I see kids play good-guys vs. bad-guys and even go up to their parents to ask whether so-and-so is a good-guy or bad-guy. This false dichotomy troubles me. And it's reproduced in D&D and Pathfinder, most action movies, popular literature, etc. In the game I GM, races (even typically evil ones like goblins) don't have an alignment stat for this very reason. A race might have tendencies based on cultural outlook, but there are way too many exceptions to be sure. Killing goblins on sight can make a PC lose their good alignment in the same way that killing _____ race on sight in the real world would be considered immoral.
I think risque pictures are a problem when it sexualizes female figures but not the men. Women become the evil seductresses and men their unwitting victims. That's a myth of rape culture right there. I want to see artwork that makes women powerful because of their other aspects as well. How about a really ugly but hardcore martial goddess? Why not a male deity with butterfly wings and not a scrap of clothing? Seems to send the wrong idea to kids, reinforces gendered stereotypes.
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Dustin, I think a more important issue is that if your child isn't old enough to distinguish that something you do in a game (kill a goblin, because goblins are evil) isn't necessarily something you should do in real life (be mean to someone, because that someone looks different), then your child probably isn't ready for a roleplaying game.
I think "risque" is in the eye of the beholder, and if you have a problem with how Seoni is shown as compared to how Sajan is shown and whether one or both are risque, then you might not want to play this game with your child.
But if you want to see powerful women in Paizo artwork, we have many examples of that.
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We do have some eye candy for the ladies and men who like men, and we also have plenty of powerful women who I don't think are particularly sexualized. (One of the reasons I love Kyra, for example, is that she's dressed modestly and still comes across as a badass.)
Iomedae, our knight-goddess, is pretty hardcore. I don't think she's ugly, but she also doesn't strike me as particularly pretty, and she has a pleasingly practical short haircut. Pharasma also doesn't seem too sexualized to me -- she's pretty forbidding, and pretty covered up, in most of the art I've seen. Chronicle of the Righteous has a pretty good selection of non-sexualized female Empyreal Lords. (Although I'd love to see less-sexualized art of some of the core 20 female deities, particularly Sarenrae and Desna, given that sexuality is not a major part of their portfolios.)
As far as evil races, short of the demons/devils/other evil outsiders, in most of the adventures/modules, when you're dealing with a race that's generally positioned as evil (kobolds, goblins, etc.) you do have options to complete objectives through diplomacy or subterfuge, rather than violence, and there are sometimes non-evil individuals that you can work with.
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I'll excuse Desna's near-nudity in that she was originally an alien inhuman star-moth-creature-deity and only learned about humanity from her (now dead) humanoid deity friend Curchanus. She doesn't have any shame about her nudity because her humanoid form is just something she created so humanoids wouldn't run in terror when they saw her true form. She doesn't need clothes in the same way as a guy with a lot of hair doesn't need a toupee—as in, "that's pointless, why should I wear that?"
Sarenrae was an angel of the sun and predates most mortal life. She... likes to tan? :p
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I am a parent of a 9 year old gamer, she started when she was 7. one of the things that drew me to Pathfinder was the fact that most of their art was tasteful and not as sexualized as some out there, and that many of their women were in fact strong and independent, with the examples laid out by Jessica Price and SKR as great examples.
also when our daughter was quite young (5 or so) we watched "The Making of... Pirates of the Caribbean" it was great because it showed her that it was just a movie and their really weren't skeleton pirates ready to eat her soul when the sun went down. i've also given her a firm grasp on whats right and wrong, an example is she knows about swear words and occasionally says shit, but she also knows NEVER to say any at school or around her grandparents.
so when she says she stabs a goblin in the eye, i know she would never actually stab anyone in the eye.
i like to think she isn't an anomaly:)
give it a try, i'm sure your kids can handle it.
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another example of using right and wrong or diplomacy.
when we started Jade Regent
so i allowed them to use diplomacy and in exchange for retrieving the rest of the fireworks from the haunted cave and giving them to the goblins, the goblins let them have the rest of the treasure and joined their caravan as entertainment, and so "King Gutwad and his fire breathing acrobats" was born, basically Gutwad sits on his throne nonchalantly while the goblins do fire breathing acrobatics and shoot off fire works around him. they are still with the caravan to this day, in fact Reta Bigbad is the caravan sous chef to my wife's gnome witch chef (who has no ranks in profession (cook).
so as you see, any encounter, no matter how its written in the adventure has room for improve! and doesn't necessarily have to end in a blood bath or TPK.
also sorry for no spoiler tags, i dont know how to do that:)
Cressida Kroft and Queen Ileosa from Curse of the Crimson Throne are a wonderful juxtaposition of, "You gender does not determine who or what you are."
thanks for the tag jessica, you would think after two years on the site i'd figure it out! but alas no:(
[ spoiler ] text you want spoilered [ /spoiler ]
As the above, without the spaces inside the brackets. :-)
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Plus, the fact that some races are always X alignment bothers me. Isn't killing on sight every orc teaching intolerance and, I'll just say it, genocide?
Just interested in everyone's take on this. Thanks.
No worries there; genocide is treated as evil in the game. It's why there are daemons that represent that sort of hateful outlook and not angels. Team Good goes for redemption rather than extermination. :)
Regarding your concerns there, I remember being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Always Evil mortal races and all the things that resulted from that approach as a child, especially when some bad early play experiences pushed the genocide=okay thing.
Getting the Monstrous Manual afterwards to see things for myself not only sparked the imagination, but seeing "usually/often evil" and the implications that had sent that imagination into overdrive AND was a relief. Pathfinder's Bestiary may lack those words, but notes on alignment in the beginning of the book mention that alignment listings aren't set-in-stone absolutes.
So really, the primary thing kids would need there is a GM that presents those possibilities: Not just members of races not being locked into a single alignment but also options for heroes beyond just killing to resolve conflicts. :)
Dustin, I think a more important issue is that if your child isn't old enough to distinguish that something you do in a game (kill a goblin, because goblins are evil) isn't necessarily something you should do in real life (be mean to someone, because that someone looks different), then your child probably isn't ready for a roleplaying game.
I think almost everyone can differentiate fiction from reality. I'm not at all suggesting silliness like video games causally make people violent or that tabletop games will short-circuit my morality and make me want to commit genocide.
But I also believe literature and roleplaying have these amazing transformative qualities to readers and players, especially young ones. I still remember when I read The Lives of Christopher Chant for the first time and how much I wanted to walk through a wall and talk to merfolk and have adventures. They impact us deeply. I identified with that young wizard. I was him.
I say, if we're going to create archetypes for ourselves to inhabit for a few hours every week, I think we--especially young people--should and could be subtly taught a world of awesomeness through the activity. Heroes inspire us, give us a model to aspire to. We relate to them because they are the best versions of ourselves. Even flawed heroes who overcome their weaknesses enough to defeat evil.
But I don't want watered down evil. I don't want evil painted with a broad "evil" brush. (Thanks, Tolkien.) I want it to reflect reality well enough, albeit through a fantastical lens, that my daughter will stand up for herself and be an amazing, powerful woman (no matter what she looks like or how she dresses). And I want her to recognize that villains are potential heroes, that we all have a blend of good and evil potential. And our choices determine our destiny more than a roll of the dice.
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I'll excuse Desna's near-nudity in that she was originally an alien inhuman star-moth-creature-deity and only learned about humanity from her (now dead) humanoid deity friend Curchanus. She doesn't have any shame about her nudity because her humanoid form is just something she created so humanoids wouldn't run in terror when they saw her true form. She doesn't need clothes in the same way as a guy with a lot of hair doesn't need a toupee—as in, "that's pointless, why should I wear that?"
Sarenrae was an angel of the sun and predates most mortal life. She... likes to tan? :p
Well, yes, there's an explanation in-game. But there was a writer who created these fiction to justify the nudity. These deities didn't literally spring out of the cosmos.
And those who have said that Pathfinder has its fair share of powerful female figures, I very much agree. And kudos to Paizo for it. Kyra. Seelah. It's downright refreshing.
But on a related note, I don't really buy the rationale that because men and women character show some skin, then all's fair and it's cool. The women characters in Pathfinder have a lot more instances of boob windows and bikini bottoms than the men going shirtless. Sure, Sajan is sans shirt, as is Seltyiel. But the iconic barbarian, sorcerer, rogue, witch, inquisitor, oracle, and gunslinger are all showing cleavage, sideboob, or thighs. Doesn't seem equal there. Plus, in our culture, women showing skin doesn't have the same connotations as men showing skin. Take a look at Sajan and Seltyiel. They have musculature that bulges off the page. That connotes power. Amiri? Quite a bit less. Seoni? I'm not exactly sure why she's wearing so little, but it doesn't scream female empowerment to me.
Ugh! not trying to be rude or anything, but other people want to stand atop the soap box too:)
Plus, the fact that some races are always X alignment bothers me. Isn't killing on sight every orc teaching intolerance and, I'll just say it, genocide?
Just interested in everyone's take on this. Thanks.
No worries there; genocide is treated as evil in the game. It's why there are daemons that represent that sort of hateful outlook and not angels. Team Good goes for redemption rather than extermination. :)
Regarding your concerns there, I remember being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Always Evil mortal races and all the things that resulted from that approach as a child, especially when some bad early play experiences pushed the genocide=okay thing.
Getting the Monstrous Manual afterwards to see things for myself not only sparked the imagination, but seeing "usually/often evil" and the implications that had sent that imagination into overdrive AND was a relief. Pathfinder's Bestiary may lack those words, but notes on alignment in the beginning of the book mention that alignment listings aren't set-in-stone absolutes.
So really, the primary thing kids would need there is a GM that presents those possibilities: Not just members of races not being locked into a single alignment but also options for heroes beyond just killing to resolve conflicts. :)
Mikaze, are you a guy or a girl? Nothing personal, I'm just curious.
Mikaze, are you a guy or a girl? Nothing personal, I'm just curious.Plus, the fact that some races are always X alignment bothers me. Isn't killing on sight every orc teaching intolerance and, I'll just say it, genocide?
Just interested in everyone's take on this. Thanks.
No worries there; genocide is treated as evil in the game. It's why there are daemons that represent that sort of hateful outlook and not angels. Team Good goes for redemption rather than extermination. :)
Regarding your concerns there, I remember being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Always Evil mortal races and all the things that resulted from that approach as a child, especially when some bad early play experiences pushed the genocide=okay thing.
Getting the Monstrous Manual afterwards to see things for myself not only sparked the imagination, but seeing "usually/often evil" and the implications that had sent that imagination into overdrive AND was a relief. Pathfinder's Bestiary may lack those words, but notes on alignment in the beginning of the book mention that alignment listings aren't set-in-stone absolutes.
So really, the primary thing kids would need there is a GM that presents those possibilities: Not just members of races not being locked into a single alignment but also options for heroes beyond just killing to resolve conflicts. :)
how is asking someone on the internet their gender NOT personal? :)
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I say, if we're going to create archetypes for ourselves to inhabit for a few hours every week, I think we--especially young people--should and could be subtly taught a world of awesomeness through the activity. Heroes inspire us, give us a model to aspire to. We relate to them because they are the best versions of ourselves. Even flawed heroes who overcome their weaknesses enough to defeat evil.
There is, perhaps, one point that needs to be made here. You voice your worries many times in this thread, but it's your game - you can make of it what you want. Run your daughter exactly the kind of game you want it to be, and teach her about the world as you wish. You don't need to worry about the game as a whole.
Regarding the artwork - one purpose of it is to catch the eye. Male and female forms with exaggerated physical characteristics that denote reproductive fitness do that, for reasons wired deep into the brain. So the artwork has evolved in that direction because it has shown to help sell books. Paizo is doing a great job in balancing the typical RPG style artwork with other styles.
I personally think that Seoni chose that outfit to showcase her power. It's a dangerous world and I choose to walk around in this outfit - fear me!
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I'm reasonably certain that Mikaze is a good-aligned outsider whose gender is irrelevant. :-)
Plus, in our culture, women showing skin doesn't have the same connotations as men showing skin. Take a look at Sajan and Seltyiel. They have musculature that bulges off the page. That connotes power. Amiri? Quite a bit less. Seoni? I'm not exactly sure why she's wearing so little, but it doesn't scream female empowerment to me.
Well, I think this is a discussion for another thread (i.e., I don't want to get into it here), but "exposed female skin is sexual, exposed male skin is powerful" is, in itself, a biased perspective. Then again, my wife loves the gym and makes bikini posing suits for female competitive bodybuilders, so maybe I have an unusual perspective of "sexiness" vs. "power" when it comes to exposed female skin.
(And yes, how the characters are portrayed in the art has something to do with the viewer's perception of that character—Jessica and I had an in-person discussion of how I'm-an-alien Desna is shown in a come-hither pose despite her natural form being giantspacebugmonster. You can have a scantily-clad person of either gender posed to look sexy, or powerful, or both, or neither... so I'm in agreement with you there.)