Ohhhh. Okay. I see. That makes MUCH more sense. That's pretty awesome, in fact.
Thank you.
That's not true, actually. Current Monk can get +5 Enhancement to hit with their unarmed strike, it was just really expensive and you couldn't get anything else.Again, you seem to have missed out the weapon training bonus TO HIT there. The monk's problem in hitting comes down to lack of enhancement. This monk has built in enhancement to +5 to hit and damage, and weapon training to +4 to hit and damage. That means they are up on 3/4 BAB +9, and can add an AoMF for effects gravy.
Keeping 3/4 BAB was deliberate on my part - the monk is defensively very, very good - perhaps the best class in the game. I wanted to make him offensively as good as or slightly better than the other full BAB classes when they are not using their 'thing'. I did not want his overall offensive ability to be as good as or better than the fighter with all guns blazing.
Exactly what the monk's problem was - that +5 was expensive, did not technically qualify as magical or get past any DR, and was capped at +5. With this monk the +5 is inherent in the monk, works against all DR, and the AoMF can add features to get you to real FULL enhancement.
Current Monk in fact gets +1 more to hit across 20 levels due to the fact that it's BAB becomes Full when it flurries. Dabbler-Monk is a much better monk in terms of attack bonus whether it flurries or does not flurry, however, losing out on only 1 point in attack compared to when Current Monk Flurries.
Currently the existing monk is limited to BAB-2 because of the way FoB works -it's full BAB only in theory. The only difference is when using a feat like Power Attack when flurrying the BAB can be treated as full, which does not happen with my monk. At levekl 20 my monk is +1 better off to hit compared to the old monk using F0B, and +4 better off if not using FoB.
Either way though, I honestly think you'll still end up with the same Flurry of Misses issue that Current Monk has regardless of if it's making a full attack action or a standard attack.
I am not so sure. A number of features kind of work against this:
1) +1 to hit over the old monk (BAB-2) even when using FoB.2) Automatic full enhancement.
3) Less MAD means probably higher stats in key places to add to attack bonus
Little changes, but they will add up. Would allowing the monk to spend a ki point to add Wisdom bonus to their to hit roll for a round be an idea to boost them up?
Still, overall, this IS MUCH BETTER in terms of attacking than Current Monk. I don't know if I want to agree that it's good enough though. You've got a huge feat Frontload that you can't actually take useful feats with due to Monk's Medium BAB.
A lot of those feats that the monk could need due to BAB restrictions have either exceptions built into them, or are in the monk's bonus feat list.
My big suggestion at this point? Something that lets you use your Monk Level in place of your BAB for meeting feat prerequisites, and 6 + int Mod Skills OR Ranger/Paladin style spellcasting up to 4th level to count as "secret techniques" to round out the class.
I don't want to mess about with BAB/monk level too much, I wanted to get away from that, but I'll consider it still. I have been thinking about the skills as another area to add in options, actually - not necessarily more skill points, but more skill options.
World Skills
At 3rd level, Monk's choose one of several options for their skill-set from the following:
Diplomat: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and Linguistics become class skills for the monk, and they gain a +1 bonus to any of these skills they place ranks in.
Hermit: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature) and Survival become class skills for the monk, and they gain a +1 bonus to any of these skills they place ranks in.
Scholar: All Knowledge skills become class skills for the monk, and they gain a +1 bonus to any of these skills they place ranks in.
Sneak: Disable Device and Slight of Hand become class skills for the monk, and they gain the Trapfinding class ability, using half their monk level in place of a rogue's class level.
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Adding any one of those things along with more things you can take when you get your Weapon Training bonuses would probably even out the class and make things work like a charm. I might have more ideas on that later...but so far, I like what you've got.
I have been thinking about other weapon training options, like:
Zen Fist: When making a stunning fist attack, by expending one point of ki the monk can resolve the attack as a melee touch attack.
Any other ideas?
Final Thought: MAD is still an issue, because if you drop STR for DEX, your monk is now a master of cherry tapping. So make it so that you can also use Dexterity or Wisdom for your damage rolls instead of Strength if those scores are better, and treat it as being Strength bonus for all damage roll purposes (including how STR is treated when using a two handed weapon.)
Strength damage for two handed weapons is still not increased using FoB with this monk, and I can understand why that should be, so multiplying other stats is out. There are already options that allow adding other stats to damage, like the Agile weapon property. I'm not sure anything more is needed, but I'm open to persuasion.
One thing I have thought about is adding Penetrating Strike to the monk's list of bonus feats at 10th level.
Some very nice ideas and debates, all. Good job.
EDIT: Post #900! YES!
MA
I'm personally lurking for 1,000 :P
Cue, Jaws theme music.
MA
You will know the monk is upgraded sufficiently when he jumps in the water and beats up the shark, then gets out and sorts out the orchestra.
I haven't said it in at least one page.
Item fix.
Since it hasn't been said in at least one page: BAD IDEA.
I agree with the change that now all attacks are made with 1 hand. The arguments so far have boiled down to either:
1) It says "any choice of attacks" so why can I not hit with my left hand for every hit?
or
2) Why should flurry of blows let you use a magic weapon for every attack without having to do both.
My personal opinion is that the "change" makes sense. If you consider it does go 13/13/8/8/3/3. In every other class the bonus goes down if you use the same limb (swing etc). So the intent looks like it was left/right/left/right/left/right. Why they would assume we would pick up on that I do not know.
This change strikes me as a proper balance change in terms of damage output and weapon usage.
P.S. Monk with a gun archetype please?
My personal opinion is that the "change" makes sense. If you consider it does go 13/13/8/8/3/3. In every other class the bonus goes down if you use the same limb (swing etc). So the intent looks like it was left/right/left/right/left/right. Why they would assume we would pick up on that I do not know.
This change strikes me as a proper balance change in terms of damage output and weapon usage.
In isolation, that may be true. On the other hand, every other combat class has something to add to the attack. The monk doesn't, and he or she is using gimped weapons to boot. It basically lumbers the monk with the downside of TWF with no associated up-side, like qualifying for feats or NOT using TWF to get a better attack bonus.
In other words if FoB is the monk's 'thing' in combat, why shouldn't they be able to do stuff that other classes cannot do with TWF? It's like saying 'yes, the fighter can get a big weapon training bonus, but he's not allowed to stack it with weapon enhancement'.
Plus, a huge number of people have been using the first interpretation and will be gimped by the second, as will a large number of stat-blocks in Paizo's own supplements.
I was working on converting some 3.x material into pathfinder, so i was brushing up on the differences when i stumbled upon this:
Flurry of Blows. Treated as two weapon fighting with no off hand and BAB equal to Monk level instead of 3/4 level.
I think this is the simplest explanation of it, heck, this is probably how it should be written in the book.
It's simple and elegant beyond all the text in the rule book. By there being no off hand, you can attack with whichever hand you want. Which has been everyone's assumptions all along.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
Also, if you are not meant to use Flurry of Blows without two weapons, why is the bolded line there?
{stuff}
Some would say that the second quote contradicts the first, and in any event why does the text in the CRB include the statement 'any combination'?
As I said above, taking away the any combination actually meaning 'any' combination just gimps the monk, and it's got enough problems.
That said, no-one is disputing what the original text meant, just that so many people interpreted it otherwise and were encouraged to do so by official stat-blocks from Paizo that it's a nerf to them all if they now impose the original interpretation, and nobody wants to tick off their customers. Plus, as SKR has said, the monk as a whole needs a good long look.
Here's hoping they come up with a solution that makes everybody happy.
They probably should just make a lot of the monk's special abilities a pool to choose from, like many of the other classes.
Afterall, the monk archetypes that do away with a lot of the forced choices seem pretty good...
As for one quote contradicting the other, i guess. I'm just saying that the first form would make for a nice and simple rules text over what we have in the core rulebook.
That's perfectly reasonable, if that's the system they choose. However I think that they will have problems redesigning the monk at the moment because there are so many archetypes based on the original. How much do you stick with the original and how much do you change?
That's one reason people are bouncing around ideas for the 'next monk', me included. I can see an 'Ultimate Monk' supplement coming which revamps the lot, myself.
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That's perfectly reasonable, if that's the system they choose. However I think that they will have problems redesigning the monk at the moment because there are so many archetypes based on the original. How much do you stick with the original and how much do you change?
That's one reason people are bouncing around ideas for the 'next monk', me included. I can see an 'Ultimate Monk' supplement coming which revamps the lot, myself.
I'm not necessarily against that, but it could present more problems. Player would obviously want Ultimate books for all classes, it would increase power creep (which is going to happen anyways) and all the problems that comes along with it, it could completely obsolete some older archetypes and designs, and probably other things I haven't thought of.
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With as many post deletions as have had to be done, would I be out of line in requesting this thread be locked? We have our legitimate posters for those really trying to work out the problems with the monk class and advocate different suggestions, but there are too many people detracting from the purpose of this discussion.
It was nice to hear from SKR and the other devs saying they are working on a solution, but until that point, this thread will have little growth in that direction. Suggestions for the class are probably best left suited for threads in that forum section. Big count threads are a magnet for post count fluffers and trolls.
I like the monk and like my fellow gamers that want to see them shine without living in a mire of constant clarifications and DM fiat. I relish that MA, Dabbler, and so many others are championing for the class, but I think this thread may have outlived its purpose. Sorry if any toes were stepped on.
Considering the systemic problems of Current Monk? I think a full scale restructuring, and the potential risk of power creep, are entirely in order here. :(
I'm not necessarily against that, but it could present more problems. Player would obviously want Ultimate books for all classes, it would increase power creep (which is going to happen anyways) and all the problems that comes along with it, it could completely obsolete some older archetypes and designs, and probably other things I haven't thought of.That's perfectly reasonable, if that's the system they choose. However I think that they will have problems redesigning the monk at the moment because there are so many archetypes based on the original. How much do you stick with the original and how much do you change?
That's one reason people are bouncing around ideas for the 'next monk', me included. I can see an 'Ultimate Monk' supplement coming which revamps the lot, myself.
I think if it was produced and presented as a FREE pdf along the lines of a rules update, or fix, then I don't see any problems with it at all. It's pretty plain to a lot of people including Paizo that in hindsight the monk needed more attention than it received. The only class that may apply to is the rogue, and they are testing new stealth rules now.
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I think if it was produced and presented as a FREE pdf along the lines of a rules update, or fix, then I don't see any problems with it at all. It's pretty plain to a lot of people including Paizo that in hindsight the monk needed more attention than it received. The only class that may apply to is the rogue, and they are testing new stealth rules now.I'm not necessarily against that, but it could present more problems. Player would obviously want Ultimate books for all classes, it would increase power creep (which is going to happen anyways) and all the problems that comes along with it, it could completely obsolete some older archetypes and designs, and probably other things I haven't thought of.That's perfectly reasonable, if that's the system they choose. However I think that they will have problems redesigning the monk at the moment because there are so many archetypes based on the original. How much do you stick with the original and how much do you change?
That's one reason people are bouncing around ideas for the 'next monk', me included. I can see an 'Ultimate Monk' supplement coming which revamps the lot, myself.
That's for PF2, and you know it! :)
Close it now? When we are so close to getting an answer? Well, closer than when we started, at least! ;)
MA
Fixit!
MAD fix - Monks can use their WIS bonus in place of their STR or DEX bonus on all attack rolls with monk weapons. This doese not change how CMB and CMD are currently calculated. Only normal weapon attacks.
ATT fix - Not needed. Monks should hit less but strike more often.
MAD & DMG fix - Monks add 1/2 (maybe 1/3) their level to all damage with monk weapons. This bonus damage is not multipled on a critical hit. Monk base damage for unarmed strike is always 1d6, it not longer increases.
Expand KI usage - As a spell-like ability, monks use ki equal to 2x the level of a spell cast. A monk selects a single cleric domain as their known spell list but does not receive any other benefit from the selected domain. Ki would start at level 1. Ki strike (magic) still waits to level 4. Monk is not a spell caster for qualifying for other abilities/feats. But if the monk worships a diety they must select their domain accordingly.
Other - Monks can spend a feat to add weapons to their monk/flurry list. Such weapons, even if 2H or dual weapons apply the monks full STR bonus to all damage. Never 1/2 or 1 and 1/2. If a monk worships a diety, he can use their favored weapon as a monk weapon.
Two weapon fighting fix - Monks don't have two weapon fighting, but can't take it either. Monks can attack with any weapon or melee attack manuever for any of these attacks.
Fixit!
MAD fix - Monks can use their WIS bonus in place of their STR or DEX bonus on all attack rolls with monk weapons. This doese not change how CMB and CMD are currently calculated. Only normal weapon attacks.
That's pretty useful, but doesn't that then undermine having either stat at all?
ATT fix - Not needed. Monks should hit less but strike more often.
Huh? If they hit less, they strike less often, not more.
MAD & DMG fix - Monks add 1/2 (maybe 1/3) their level to all damage with monk weapons. This bonus damage is not multipled on a critical hit. Monk base damage for unarmed strike is always 1d6, it not longer increases.
That's pretty much what I suggested in my monk design above, save that uses weapon training and automatic enhancement to do so. That improves the hitting without needing to chop and change between 3/4 and full BAB, provides the enhancement they need and keeps the damage at a reasonable average.
Expand KI usage - As a spell-like ability, monks use ki equal to 2x the level of a spell cast. A monk selects a single cleric domain as their known spell list but does not receive any other benefit from the selected domain. Ki would start at level 1. Ki strike (magic) still waits to level 4. Monk is not a spell caster for qualifying for other abilities/feats. But if the monk worships a diety they must select their domain accordingly.
Making monks casters is not the solution.
Other - Monks can spend a feat to add weapons to their monk/flurry list. Such weapons, even if 2H or dual weapons apply the monks full STR bonus to all damage. Never 1/2 or 1 and 1/2. If a monk worships a diety, he can use their favored weapon as a monk weapon.
I agree with this, monks need to be able to add weapons and flurry with them.
Two weapon fighting fix - Monks don't have two weapon fighting, but can't take it either. Monks can attack with any weapon or melee attack manuever for any of these attacks.
You mean, the way most people seem to have been playing the current monk, only now doing it officially.
That's pretty useful, but doesn't that then undermine having either stat at all?Fixit!
MAD fix - Monks can use their WIS bonus in place of their STR or DEX bonus on all attack rolls with monk weapons. This doese not change how CMB and CMD are currently calculated. Only normal weapon attacks.
No, they still matter for all other purposes. STR for damage and carrying capacity and skills. Dex for AC, Reflex, Init, Skills. They just aren't required to be a viable character anymore.
ATT fix - Not needed. Monks should hit less but strike more often.Huh? If they hit less, they strike less often, not more.
It was a rushed post, my wording could have been better. I was using the term strike to mean making an attack roll (thus not necessarily hitting). The point is you get more attacks so it's ok if you don't hit as often as a fighter.
MAD & DMG fix - Monks add 1/2 (maybe 1/3) their level to all damage with monk weapons. This bonus damage is not multipled on a critical hit. Monk base damage for unarmed strike is always 1d6, it not longer increases.That's pretty much what I suggested in my monk design above, save that uses weapon training and automatic enhancement to do so. That improves the hitting without needing to chop and change between 3/4 and full BAB, provides the enhancement they need and keeps the damage at a reasonable average.
My idea is just to use it for DMG not ATT, but in theory it would be used with the first point. So if the first point isn't adapted something similar, like your idea should.
Expand KI usage - As a spell-like ability, monks use ki equal to 2x the level of a spell cast. A monk selects a single cleric domain as their known spell list but does not receive any other benefit from the selected domain. Ki would start at level 1. Ki strike (magic) still waits to level 4. Monk is not a spell caster for qualifying for other abilities/feats. But if the monk worships a diety they must select their domain accordingly.Making monks casters is not the solution.
It irks me that ninjas have better KI abilities than monks. So that was my first draft to address that.
Other - Monks can spend a feat to add weapons to their monk/flurry list. Such weapons, even if 2H or dual weapons apply the monks full STR bonus to all damage. Never 1/2 or 1 and 1/2. If a monk worships a diety, he can use their favored weapon as a monk weapon.I agree with this, monks need to be able to add weapons and flurry with them.
:)
Two weapon fighting fix - Monks don't have two weapon fighting, but can't take it either. MonksYou mean, the way most people seem to have been playing the current monk, only now doing it officially.
Exactly
No, they still matter for all other purposes. STR for damage and carrying capacity and skills. Dex for AC, Reflex, Init, Skills. They just aren't required to be a viable character anymore.That's pretty useful, but doesn't that then undermine having either stat at all?Fixit!
MAD fix - Monks can use their WIS bonus in place of their STR or DEX bonus on all attack rolls with monk weapons. This doese not change how CMB and CMD are currently calculated. Only normal weapon attacks.
I would apply it to CMB/CMD otherwise you are penalising the maneuver-based monk, and maneuvers are one think monks are meant to do well.
It was a rushed post, my wording could have been better. I was using the term strike to mean making an attack roll (thus not necessarily hitting). The point is you get more attacks so it's ok if you don't hit as often as a fighter.ATT fix - Not needed. Monks should hit less but strike more often.Huh? If they hit less, they strike less often, not more.
Not always true, especially with the monk. Limited enhancement means lower chances to hit, and just -2 on hitting is close to being worth an extra attack.
More simply, if the fighter hits 3 times out of four, and the monk one time out of seven, then the monk is losing out big time. That's why flurry-of-blows keeps getting called 'flurry-of-misses'. Now you have given the monk a few more options with full BAB, but not enough to make up the difference there.
My idea is just to use it for DMG not ATT, but in theory it would be used with the first point. So if the first point isn't adapted something similar, like your idea should.MAD & DMG fix - Monks add 1/2 (maybe 1/3) their level to all damage with monk weapons. This bonus damage is not multipled on a critical hit. Monk base damage for unarmed strike is always 1d6, it not longer increases.That's pretty much what I suggested in my monk design above, save that uses weapon training and automatic enhancement to do so. That improves the hitting without needing to chop and change between 3/4 and full BAB, provides the enhancement they need and keeps the damage at a reasonable average.
Fair enough.
Admittedly, having that kind of Wisdom stop-gap for attack rolls is a nice idea...but it doesn't really work. I mean, there are a LOT of Monk variants that do that, and not a single person has brought up the usefulness of this. The reason of course, is that it's too small. If you're a monk that intends to do damage, you pump your Strength, in which case you also pump your Wisdom for your class features. Or you're a Dexterity monk, and you pump your Dexterity and your Wisdom and take weapon finesse. You could pump dexterity and not take weapon finesse, but No matter how many ways you slice it, you're still putting points into Wisdom for class features, and still not getting any bonus damage for your damage rolls. Wisdom for attack rolls has been done before, and it's just as useless the first time it's done as the last time it's done: you still need that OTHER stat to make up for things no matter which route you go, and that means the alteration to your attack stat really doesn't affect anything. It's a zero-sum game, gents, something new needs to come into play here.
Everyone brings up Wisdom to attack AND damage rolls in place of Strength, because that ends up being a bigger, more effective number that genuinely changes up the entire class. The problem there of course, is that you run the risk of someone dipping Monk, and then going straight into Fighter, or something similar.
No matter what fix you throw up using a minor stat alteration, Monk still needs Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom at minimum to be effective. And Dexterity...well, honestly I prefer my Dexterity Monks to my Strength monks, thematically.
Monk definitely needs to change the way it does business, and that includes finding a way to lower it's required stats. It's time to bite the bullet and actually ask: What can you do to drop the stat requirements down to something reasonable?
I used wholeness of body as a swift action & 1 ki cost to help reduce need for Con. Giving the Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers feats reduce the need for strength.
But to boost damage? Wis to damage might help as a precision bonus?
Gentelmen,
may I interrupt for a second?
May I suggest that this discussion which is very civilized BTW, be put on hold. and every one of us puts up a monk class fix/rebuild and we all vote on it to see which one we like the most? then we can submit it as our the "unofficial lovers of monks club" fix to the Devs?
Then in the spirit of that discussion, may I present the latest incarnation of my monk design? I also recommend that we be NOT permitted to vote for our own designs.
I have another version of this that breaks down some of the monk abilities into options:
Dabbler's Design:
1: Ach! Dabbler, yer killin me here! Change the description of flurry of blows to say "Any Combat Maneuver that can be performed as an Attack". Otherwise, you can't use Flurry to Dirty Trick or Bull Rush someone, even if you have the Quick Dirty Trick or Fast Bull Rush feats. Although, you MAY want to consider simply saying "you can perform any combat maneuver that costs a standard action or faster using your Flurry of Blows bonus attacks." If we're going to make Monk a Combat Maneuvers Master, we may as well build that right in. If not, you should still at least say "if a combat maneuver can be performed in an attack action, it may be used with Flurry of Blows."
2: Don't make Fast Move an enhancement bonus. Make it an insight bonus or something. One of the big complaints about Monk Speed Bonus is that EVERYONE can be just as fast with an item or two, but Monk never gets faster with magic. I think this means that either Monk should be slower, or the bonus should be different? It's tricky balance-wise, but I think by the time it matters at high levels, people teleport, fly, and murderize everything ever, so I don't see why it would matter.
3: Everyone complains that Ki Pool isn't powerful enough, or that Monk needs more Ki than it gets for the effects it can use. Either it needs more Ki, or the individual effects it can do need to be more powerful. It's something you should consider, although what you've done with Wholeness of Body and Abundant Step IS awesome. Either way, lets see more Ki effects you can drop on someone as you level up!
4: Slow Fall is a bad class feature that's impossible to use most of the time. Just make it Automatic Free Feather Fall, and combine it with normal Monk High Jump, and be done with it already. :(
5: "Zen" is not a good name for Zen Fist. I suggest "Ghost Palm" based on the nature of the effect. Zen hasn't got nothing to do with it, but just touching someone to deliver the badass as well as piercing all armor? Definitely more like the legendary "Ghost Palm" technique you hear about sometimes in martial arts circles. ;D
6: What if you added the "Quick/Fast (Maneuver)" feats in at level 10?
7: World-wise is awesome, but with that added in, I desperately wish this monk was 6 + Int Mod skills.
That said Dabbler, I love it more than the last draft. I'll take a look at Mystic Monk in a little bit. Just remember: I'm harsh because I want it to be awesome, and I want to see if the ideas will make it more awesome.
1: Ach! Dabbler, yer killin me here! Change the description of flurry of blows to say "Any Combat Maneuver that can be performed as an Attack". Otherwise, you can't use Flurry to Dirty Trick or Bull Rush someone, even if you have the Quick Dirty Trick or Fast Bull Rush feats. Although, you MAY want to consider simply saying "you can perform any combat maneuver that costs a standard action or faster using your Flurry of Blows bonus attacks." If we're going to make Monk a Combat Maneuvers Master, we may as well build that right in. If not, you should still at least say "if a combat maneuver can be performed in an attack action, it may be used with Flurry of Blows."
Consider that box ticked. I don't want every monk to be a maneuver master, I want existing archetypes to still be relevant and offer some gravy, I just don't want them to be such that they are the whole meal.
2: Don't make Fast Move an enhancement bonus. Make it an insight bonus or something. One of the big complaints about Monk Speed Bonus is that EVERYONE can be just as fast with an item or two, but Monk never gets faster with magic. I think this means that either Monk should be slower, or the bonus should be different? It's tricky balance-wise, but I think by the time it matters at high levels, people teleport, fly, and murderize everything ever, so I don't see why it would matter.
I hear what you are saying. Not sure I want to change it from an enhancement bonus but certainly applying it in some form to the other movement forms is not a bad idea.
3: Everyone complains that Ki Pool isn't powerful enough, or that Monk needs more Ki than it gets for the effects it can use. Either it needs more Ki, or the individual effects it can do need to be more powerful. It's something you should consider, although what you've done with Wholeness of Body and Abundant Step IS awesome. Either way, lets see more Ki effects you can drop on someone as you level up!
I've taken it further with the mystic monk.
4: Slow Fall is a bad class feature that's impossible to use most of the time. Just make it Automatic Free Feather Fall, and combine it with normal Monk High Jump, and be done with it already. :(
You will like the mystic monk, I made it an option there and axed it from the rest of the monk completely.
5: "Zen" is not a good name for Zen Fist. I suggest "Ghost Palm" based on the nature of the effect. Zen hasn't got nothing to do with it, but just touching someone to deliver the badass as well as piercing all armor? Definitely more like the legendary "Ghost Palm" technique you hear about sometimes in martial arts circles. ;D
Ghost Palm it is!
6: What if you added the "Quick/Fast (Maneuver)" feats in at level 10?
I could...will think on that one!
7: World-wise is awesome, but with that added in, I desperately wish this monk was 6 + Int Mod skills.
Well, I want the monk to have decisions to make to focus in one direction, not be able to do everything at once. If you take a small boost to Int then you can handle this.
That said Dabbler, I love it more than the last draft. I'll take a look at Mystic Monk in a little bit. Just remember: I'm harsh because I want it to be awesome, and I want to see if the ideas will make it more awesome.
Thank you. I made a lot of abilities optional. Next draft will be worked on soon with feedback incorporated - let's see what everyone else says...
For wholeness of body, I'd modify it to act as a self-only lay on hands with his monk levels counting as paladin levels to determine the power and what feats/mercies he qualifies for. Swift action as well.
I don't think the monk needs mercies, but having wholeness of body restore lost ability points is a funky idea.
Dabbler I like it
I don't know if anyone has suggested this before with the problems around using Wisdom to hit and damage; what if you tied it into Flurry of Blows? Make say something like, "Anytime a monk makes a Flurry of Blows, he may use his wisdom for attack and damage rolls instead of strength."
This largely requires the Monk to be unarmed or using a special monk weapon, thus largely cutting out the other classes from dipping for wisdom to hit and damage.
Either that or implement the same restrictions as the Monk AC bonus, so anytime he is unarmored, and unencumbered, he can apply his wisdom to his attack and damage.
Okay folks. Having taken many of your suggestions to heart; here then is my 'Monk with Options'. I have gone a different route, and this version has the class options (Monk Disciplines) seen and loved in the Barbarian (Rage Powers) and Rogue (Talent) and Ninja (Talent) classes. I hope that you like it, and that you comment on it.
Master Arminas
EDIT: Oh, and Dabbler? Well done, sir. Very nice.
MA
I like your idea of disciplines, Arminas. I've used similar ideas for my Mystic Monk, but just choped and changed some of the less iconic monk powers. I could revamp it for more, but I don't want to meddle too much with the original monk.
@BYC
Don't worry too much about being too good compared to the current monk, because the current monk has problems so anything that fixes the problems will be better than it, probably by a long way. I know my monk does, but the question I ask is, is this balanced with regard to other combat classes.
Here's an update of my Mystic Monk. I have similarly updated my more normal design for features in common. I can still see a few typos and corrections needed, but I think it's definitely getting there.
And for those who REALLY like options, check out my Tattooed Monk.
MA
I'm not sure if I'll write up an entire monk build (both because of time and that I think the changes should be narrow in scope) but my 2 cents in the meantime.
It seems like the builds add a whole lot of stuff that together ends up as overkill. Most of the stuff makes excellent material for archtypes, but goes too far in terms of fixing the monk. Consider that the more you add the more likely that something will break. So I would challenge, instead of building the "best" monks, narrow the scope to 1-3 additional rules (or monk specific rule tweeks) that would fix the monk without breaking them.
Hi Dabbler,
some comments to your Mystic Monk :-)
Flurry
- I like the possibility of additional attacks in standard actions but I'm not sure whether it is too powerful or should require 1 ki point.
- I'd prefer a smoother progression for the full round flurry, so I'd suggest to add 1 attack at levels 6 (3 attacks), 10 (5 attacks), 14 (6 attacks, together with the attack gained at level 10), 18 (7 attacks). Yes, that would increase max attacks to 7. I like to have many attacks for the monk to be able to make some trips, disarms etc. in-between.
World wise
- very good idea
- I'm not sure whether I like the Sneak group with disable device, sleight of hand and trap finding. That's too rogue like and too monk unlike for my feelings. But still pondering.
Still mind
- very good extension/clarification
Ki pool
- I like the addition of adding Wis modifier to hit
- I'd like to see an improvement to ki pool size, maybe 1/level or maybe a a flat bonus of 2 ki points at levels 6, 12, 18, or at least as a flat bonus of 2 at the beginning
Weapon training abilities
- nice idea and there are some good ones to choose from (Ghost palm, Deadly strikes, Maneuver skill) while the others are mostly uninteresting (why would I choose Haft strike which I can't use in a flurry? why would I choose weapon proficiency groups when I can't use them in a flurry?).
- But the problem is: I have to choose Mighty several times if I don't want to get stuck with inferior unarmed damage. As you know, I prefer the increasing damage dies of the current monk :-) Much more fun to roll, much nicer for Enlarge person and Vital strike.
Shattering strike
- very nice but I'd prefer a smoother progression, maybe monk level - 3?
Mystic powers
- very nice but can be chosen too seldom and at strange intervals (I know, you just made some select class features choosable, but I'd suggest to make it more regular and often). What about levels 4,7,10,13,16,19? And increasing the list of available powers by about 3-5 powers :-) Your 12th-level powers would become available at level 10 (I think that's ok for all of them). Level 16 might add two or three high level powers (but not more). Doesn't the ninja get one every other level? (Ok the monk has more built-in powers :-)
- you chose very nice powers which are all very worthwhile!
Diamond soul
- still would like to see SR+4 for 1 round for 1 ki as swift action
EDIT: forgot to add the wish to get the Greater maneuver feats added to the bonus feat list.
Hi Master Arminas,
some comments on your monk with options :-)
Fast Movement
- I'm not too fond of having to spend ki for real fast movement. Maybe the extraordinary part could increase as well when gaining levels, but not as fast as for the current monk? I did like the idea of monks outrunning horses cross-country...
Unarmed Strike
- I prefer the current progression, simply because it is easier (less dies to add), I don't have as many d4 and I generally don't like throwing d4 much (and sweeping up a couple of d4 is unwieldy due to their form).
Flurry
- Similar problem as Dabbler's Mystic Monk: too few attacks. I like having some attacks to spare for combat maneuvers. For me that's an essential feature of the monk. And your flurry attack bonuses are even lower than the current monk's so your argument of improving the hit rate by changing the flurry like that does not count (monastic weapon training would work quite as well with the current monk's attack routine).
Monk disciplines:
- very nice idea in general (haven't looked too much at the individual disciplines yet)
Abundant Step
- making it a real move action is great (actually I always read it as such)
- don't know if I like the monk being able to take someone with him. Monk abilities should center on the monk and not include others.
Perfect self
- I like blindsight, but would actually make it available (as discipline) much earlier as it fits monks very well
- nice additions, although 20th level is not really important anyway :-)
Hi Dabbler,
some comments to your Mystic Monk :-)
Flurry
- I like the possibility of additional attacks in standard actions but I'm not sure whether it is too powerful or should require 1 ki point.
I wondered the same, but in all honesty it's no better than the Mobile Fighter archetype's ability. Ki is loaded enough as it is, I think flurry of blows should be intrinsic to the monk.
- I'd prefer a smoother progression for the full round flurry, so I'd suggest to add 1 attack at levels 6 (3 attacks), 10 (5 attacks), 14 (6 attacks, together with the attack gained at level 10), 18 (7 attacks). Yes, that would increase max attacks to 7. I like to have many attacks for the monk to be able to make some trips, disarms etc. in-between.
I wanted to keep things simple and easy, which is why I chose this method. I'll consider other options, but in all honesty I want something that is simple first. I think that's why TWF was used as a basis for the Pathfinder monk, to maintain a simple mechanic.
I also considered Master Arminas' system, but I really do not want to have the monk get multiple attacks at full BAB - I want to stick with the standard of iterative attacks.
The only other method would be to go right back to 3.0 with iterative attacks at -2 instead of -5. That would delay the first extra attack to 4th level, and at 20th give you +15/+13/+11/+9/+7/+5/+3/+1.
World wise
- very good idea
- I'm not sure whether I like the Sneak group with disable device, sleight of hand and trap finding. That's too rogue like and too monk unlike for my feelings. But still pondering.
I am not so sure about 'monk unlike' myself, I used to watch kung fu ;) so slight-of-hand isn't monk-unlike to me, and disable device then lets the monk fill the scout role to completion (I'm using a trait to give my monk Disable Device in a game, it works well).
The whole idea is to give the monk options, and I think it works quite well. Ki-rin Style isn't a great feat without knowledge skills, then it suddenly gets very good!
Still mind
- very good extension/clarification
Thank you!
Ki pool
- I like the addition of adding Wis modifier to hit
- I'd like to see an improvement to ki pool size, maybe 1/level or maybe a a flat bonus of 2 ki points at levels 6, 12, 18, or at least as a flat bonus of 2 at the beginning
Flat bonus is more likely the way to go, or else add monk level rather than half monk level.
Weapon training abilities
- nice idea and there are some good ones to choose from (Ghost palm, Deadly strikes, Maneuver skill) while the others are mostly uninteresting (why would I choose Haft strike which I can't use in a flurry? why would I choose weapon proficiency groups when I can't use them in a flurry?).
Additional Weapon Skill makes any weapon the monk has proficiency with a monk weapon, including the haft strike. Hence if the monk is specialising in a reach weapon they can do some dandy unorthodox things with it.
Again, it gives the player options to develop a unique monk.
- But the problem is: I have to choose Mighty several times if I don't want to get stuck with inferior unarmed damage. As you know, I prefer the increasing damage dies of the current monk :-) Much more fun to roll, much nicer for Enlarge person and Vital strike.
That was quite deliberate. Unarmed damage is good enough as it is, getting more out of it should cost more. The weapon training abilities are designed to make a monk that has a theme, a focus. Hence if you want the deadly critical hits, you can get them. If you want a weapon-master monk, you can have one (without the need for an archetype). If you want a monk that can quaff a potion, swell to twice his size and stomp all over the enemy, then you can.
But you don't get to do everything. The problem of the current monk is it tries to be all things to all players and ends up being too much of a jack of all trades, master of none.
Shattering strike
- very nice but I'd prefer a smoother progression, maybe monk level - 3?
Could do. Will consider it.
Mystic powers
- very nice but can be chosen too seldom and at strange intervals (I know, you just made some select class features choosable, but I'd suggest to make it more regular and often). What about levels 4,7,10,13,16,19? And increasing the list of available powers by about 3-5 powers :-) Your 12th-level powers would become available at level 10 (I think that's ok for all of them). Level 16 might add two or three high level powers (but not more). Doesn't the ninja get one every other level? (Ok the monk has more built-in powers :-)
I did consider expanding them, but would have to make some abilities like wholeness of body optional, which I felt to be thematic. I will rework them, see what I can make happen. Most likely they will emerge every second level after 5th.
- you chose very nice powers which are all very worthwhile!
If there is one thing I didn't like about the monk, it's that the powers were often not fit for the purpose they were designed for.
Diamond soul
- still would like to see SR+4 for 1 round for 1 ki as swift action
I genuinely do not see the need, myself.
EDIT: forgot to add the wish to get the Greater maneuver feats added to the bonus feat list.
This has been said a lot...the problem with the bonus feats is that they do not require prerequisites. That means you could in theory gain the Greater feats without the Improved feats, which is why I think they were originally left out. I think I have given this version of the monk enough goodies that these are not needed, but I'm still open to persuasion once I get the rest of the kinks ironed out.
Thanks for your feedback, Liam. I will continue working on this.
I wondered the same, but in all honesty it's no better than the Mobile Fighter archetype's ability.
I have to object: it is significantly better (and I tend to touch archetypes with a ten feet pole as they are such a mixed bag of often very unbalanced features - but that's another topic...).
The Mobile fighter gets +6/+1 at level 11. Your monk gets this three levels earlier (level 8) and at level 11 he is already at +8/+3.At level 16 the Mobile Fighter gets +11/+6/+1 whereas your monk has +12/+7/+2 already.
At level 20 the Mobile Fighter has caught up with the monk (or surpassed him with his 20th level Whirlwind Blitz - which is his only feature he gets at level 20, though, whereas your monk gets considerable more at level 20).
Yes, he gets it earlier but then it is meant to be the monk's speciality. The scope and the cap is effectively the same.
Hi Master Arminas,
some comments on your monk with options :-)
Fast Movement
- I'm not too fond of having to spend ki for real fast movement. Maybe the extraordinary part could increase as well when gaining levels, but not as fast as for the current monk? I did like the idea of monks outrunning horses cross-country...
And it is traditional. Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of a fast-moving monk, but past a certain point his overland speed is just too fast. I mean a high-level monk taking a double move can cover THREE times the ground in a day as a Horseman not trying to push his steed. This version keeps the in-combat speed, but doesn't make all Monks 'The Flash' in cross-country marathons.
Unarmed Strike
- I prefer the current progression, simply because it is easier (less dies to add), I don't have as many d4 and I generally don't like throwing d4 much (and sweeping up a couple of d4 is unwieldy due to their form).
As I was expecting. Many people DON'T like the d4s.
Flurry
- Similar problem as Dabbler's Mystic Monk: too few attacks. I like having some attacks to spare for combat maneuvers. For me that's an essential feature of the monk. And your flurry attack bonuses are even lower than the current monk's so your argument of improving the hit rate by changing the flurry like that does not count (monastic weapon training would work quite as well with the current monk's attack routine).
Current Monk (at level 20): +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (before ki)
My Monk w/Options (at level 20): +15/+15/+15/+15/+15 (before ki)But that is only the base. My Monk w/Options adds weapons training (+4 to attacks) and even if he doesn't spend money on an amulet of mighty fists can spend 1 point of ki to get a +5 enhancement bonus on his unarmed strikes for 1 minute. That gives him (before any ability modifiers and feats): +24/+24/+24/+24/+24 . . . without spending any ki on extra attacks.
Even if the current monk has a +5 enhancement bonus, he is only at +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8; which gives my monk a 1-point attack bonus advantage over the largest attack bonus of the canon monk. Sure, he loses two attacks in total (5 vs. 7), but let's compare those attack routines: +23/+23 (Canon) vs. +24/+24 (Mine); +18/+18 (Canon) vs. +24/+24 (Mine); +13/+13 (Canon) vs. +24 (Mine); +8 (Canon) vs. N/A (Mine).
Now, it doesn't improve the monk too much vise-a-vie the full BAB classes, where he is still 5 or more points behind everyone; but that is okay. Doing it this way, the Monk doesn't have those extremely low, and unlikely to hit iterative attacks. Heck, his FIFTH attack is +11 over the canon monk!
Against a Fighter, with a +5 weapon, we have +29/+24/+19/+14 vs. +24/+24/+24/+24/+24. Even after we add in feats, that is +31/+26/+21/+16 vs. +25/+25/+25/+25/+25! I'd take that attack routine gladly, Liam . . . wouldn't you?
And you can STILL substitute disarm, sunder, or trip for attacks when making a flurry. And thanks to maneuver training, and depending on your bonus feat selections, your CMB is going to be around 5-9 points higher for any given attack!
Anyway, just how I look at it. I, personally, would rather have fewer attacks that are more likely to hit, than a large number of attacks that will see the majority as a swing and a miss.
Monk disciplines:
- very nice idea in general (haven't looked too much at the individual disciplines yet)Abundant Step
- making it a real move action is great (actually I always read it as such)
- don't know if I like the monk being able to take someone with him. Monk abilities should center on the monk and not include others.Perfect self
- I like blindsight, but would actually make it available (as discipline) much earlier as it fits monks very well
- nice additions, although 20th level is not really important anyway :-)
Well, thanks. Glad you liked those.
MA
Current Monk (at level 20): +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (before ki)
My Monk w/Options (at level 20): +15/+15/+15/+15/+15 (before ki)
But that is only the base. My Monk w/Options adds weapons training [...]
What I meant is: you can use weapons training in the new design etc. while keeping the old attack routine with its high number of attacks at the cost of the iterative ones hitting worse. No need to reduce the number of attacks.
This would result in the following attack routine, which I would prefer: +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (same example as yours, i.e. including weapon training and +5 enhancement bonus for 1 min)
Compared with yours: +26/+26 (Mine) vs. +24/+24 (yours); +21/+21 (Mine) vs. +24/+24 (Yours); +16 (Mine) vs. +24 (Yours); +16/+11 (Mine) vs. N/A (Yours).
Or, looking at the differences:
(Yours - Mine): -2/-2/+3/+3/+8/NONE/NONE
(Mine - Yours): +2/+2/-3/-3/-8/Extra +16/Extra +11
Yours has the advantage of being much easier to use as all attacks use the same bonus. That's a nice thing in itself, I agree. Maybe if you could add one more attack, so that the monk gets 6 attacks (+1 for ki)? That would probably require dropping the flurry attacks by -2 to compensate, though.
The way I look at it, six attacks (seven with ki) is enough if the attack chances are higher. I guess I am focussing on hits rather than attacks: Less attacks is OK if it leads to more hits.
Playing with figures, comparing my monk to the original, the loss of the seventh attack is acceptable if the seventh attack has a 30% chance of hitting or less.
Looking at my Mystic Monk, I have the latest version here.
Then I have an updated version of my standard monk, taking out slow fall and putting in light step instead.
The reason I am doing two versions is that there are many archetypes for the monk that replace out abilities that the mystic monk now has as options, and I am conscious that replacing the existing monk is going to require some compromises if we do not want to re-write half of the existing rulebooks.
I am still in two minds about the standard-action flurry-of-blows attack requiring ki. I have boosted the amount of ki by a few points with a flat bonus, but I do not see the point in adding more abilities that require ki, and then raising the amount a ki the monk has available - that just effectively halves the cost of the existing ki abilities.
I've resolved to stick with my formula for flurry-of-blows at the moment, because it's basic and simple. Every time I think of another way of doing FoB, I realise that I have to account for multi-classed monks, and it all gets horribly complicated. The existing system I came up with may add attacks two at a time, but it's easy to work out with a multi-classed character how many extra attacks they get: +1 for flurry, +2 for improved flurry, +3 for greater flurry. What I may do, though, is stagger the Improved and Greater flurry up by a few levels.
Edit: MA, I put my feedback in your thread on the monk with options. I really liked the disciplines, in fact I may just steal catfall for my standard monk, if I may.
Help yourself dabbler; steal anything you want!
Liam: he can spend a point of ki for an extra attack when making a flurry, just like normal monks. Plus haste, plus Medusa's Wrath.
MA
...
As I was expecting. Many people DON'T like the d4s.
...
My DM let me respec to your Monk because she was already looking for some way to pump up the monk, and let me just say that I love the d4s, both from a gameplay perspective and from the old timer perspective.
My DM and I were both concerned about the fewer number of attacks and the reduced movement speed, but the increase in Ki points makes it very similar, and I am hitting more often too. Not to mention I tossed on a pair of boots of striding and springing on top of that.
From a damage perspective, let me say that in our current campaign arc we are fighting a lot of outsiders. That was what caused my DM to want me to look into ways to buff up the monk because the DR of the outsiders was causing my to do literally no damage most of the time. Stunning Fist doesn't work well on creatures with a primary Fort either.
Being able to make two good attacks after a move has been good for the group tactics too.
If I had to complain I would say that the perception line of boosts is kind of week. Maybe start with darkvision, then give scent. A bonus to the perception skill could be good too.
But yeah, good job MA!