Ok, I went back and properly adjusted everybody, gave everyone proper weapons since I couldn’t assume similar weapons anymore (and added in the damage for crits that I had left off of you) and you seem ok earlier and you fall behind pretty rapidly at the end. (That big hump at level 10 was me mistakenly leaving in your +4 attack bonus from spending ki).
(After this point, when I talk about spending ki, I mean only on the +4 to hit bonus. Spending additional ki to increase damage or add another attack drives the numbers higher).
At level 5, without spending ki, the class is ~3% under the inquisitor.
At level 10, without spending ki, the class is ~16% under the inquisitor.
At level 15, without spending ki, the class is ~30% under the inquisitor.
The inquisitor jumps up at the end of its class because it gets that greater bane feature, granting it an extra +2 to hit/damage and +2d6 damage compared to before.
Overall, the flurry gives you a really high damage rating but your to hit is still pretty low.
Part of it is that, before these high levels, you’ve been able to keep a higher enchantment on your staff compared to the other classes (Ki Strike equals out to a lot of free money around level 10). But in this game, enchanted equipment is going to be harder to come by.
So let’s see how things fare if I max out pre-ability-enhanced magic weapons to +2 only.
Level 5 doesn’t change.
Level 10 leaves you at ~6% under the inquisitor without ki, and ~27.5% over with ki.
Level 15 leaves you at ~20% under the inquisitor without ki, and ~19% over with ki.
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Interestingly enough, you only need ~+1 more to hit near the end of the class to bring you back in line.
Also interestingly, it seems like the same level in the class progression where a new ability would fit is level 12, the same level that the inquisitor gets Greater Bane.
So, how about just getting weapon focus for free at level 4, and greater weapon focus at level 12. And we’ll also say that it counts for both the bonded staff and unarmed strikes. That should put you on par again, and it frees up a given feat.
(Related, you can't take Weapon Focus at level 1 because it requires a +1 BaB).
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For the catfall bit, how about making it 2d6 at each level you would have gotten one of the speaking abilities? That gives 8d6 less fall damage at level 16 (so a fall of 90-100 feet is basically nothing) and you'd still always land on your feet.
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Also, just to say, you don't have to take the class I built. I was just putting together something I thought you might like.
... I've been doing that wrong since 3.0... Good thing I've been DM then... : /
What surprises me is how dumb I feel for having done that wrong for so long. Huh.
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Ok, two handing still comes out ahead (thanks to the damage boost from power attack) but the gap is closed fairly significantly. It is still definitely better early on, but by level 15 it's only about 5-6% more damage.
I need to go back and recheck my calculations for, well, everything (my class too), and see where things line up. A quick glance puts you as a little low at 5, better than an inquisitor at 10, and a little low again at level 15.
I'll tweak it a bit and see how we can boost it a bit.
In DPS calculations two handing makes a huge difference, mostly because of an increase to hit and the bonus from power attack.
Assume a +4 str mod and level 12 (so 1d6 staff damage, 2d6 unarmed, BaB +9) and power attack.
Two-handing staff to hit: 9 BaB + 6 str - 2 pwr atk = 13
Fist to hit: 9 Bab + 4 str - 2 pwr atk = 11
-Against an AC 20 opponent-
That's ~14% more damage. Now, this is a simple example, but as you add on greater stat bonuses and multiple attacks, that 14% builds up faster than it might seem.
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Without typing out the whole spreadsheet, here is the absolute and percent difference per round lower the fists are vs two-handing staff:
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Also, any suggestions on a fluffy thing to use instead of the talking to animals, plants, and rocks thing?
Ok, I ran some quick numbers comparing that class against an Inquisitor at levels 5, 10, and 15.
For AC, you’re right in line with at levels 5 and 15, and slightly higher at level 10, without spending a ki point to increase AC or deciding to fight defensively. This is assuming you are fighting an enemy one-on-one. Your AC goes up the more enemies you fight at once.
And this does not include the Defensive Roll, your DR, your Redirection, or any feats you might take.
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For attack, at level 5 you are about equal to an inquisitor without spending ki. Spending a point to increase your attack by 4 brings you closer to a fighter.
At level 10, your DPS is about the same as an inquisitor without spending ki. Spending a point to increase your attack by 4, or to gain an extra flurry attack, then again brings you closer to a fighter
At level 15, your normal DPS falls behind the Inquisitor more than I’d like (~30% under). Spending a ki point on the attack bonus puts you even. Spending one on both the attack bonus and the extra flurry attack puts you ~22% over the inquisitor.
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Honestly, you said you wanted tanky, not DPS. You keep up with an inquisitor, who is spending all of his per day abilities, without spending any ki points until the very end. And if you spend ki points you jump ahead in every category.
That's a good point about the swift action. I'll change the Expanded and Greater to allow for that.
No, normally monks can only use their unarmed strike damage with their fists, and I haven't changed that. That said, you actually do more damage (in a min/maxy way) with the staff, because there is nothing that says you can't flurry while two-handing it.
I'm almost done brushing up some quick numbers with this class vs an inquisitor.
Yeah, you really need to look closer at it.
Bonded staff basically lets you use a staff as if it were an unarmed strike for the things it qualifies for.
Ki Strike works like an enhancement bonus for a weapon, so it increases to hit and damage for unarmed strikes and your staff. Your staff also gets to count as the various materials for bypassing DR.
Your flurry attacks are always at your highest attack bonus, and at level 10 you get to standard move and attack twice at your highest bonus.
You Ki pool lets you spend ki to increase your damage and/or to hit for one round.
You also get the Ghost Hungry Monk abilities, which let you gain ki when downing an enemy or confirming a crit.
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As far as AC, you get the standard AC + wis, you can spend ki to increase AC, you get flowing dodge, and Sense the Flow is going to work great with your crane feats, plus your redirection ability. And I still left in the DR you had before, just pushed it back a little.
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Yes, the speaking with animals and all might not be strictly Denul, but I always liked that flavor for monk and saw it as a nice touch to throw back in.
@Zayne: There wasn't enough damage to kill him. Close though.
He doesn't die until negative his con score, which is 15.
So he's at -12, and would have died in 3 more HP of damage.
Also, I think the class is ready. Let me know what you think:
You can fluff the defensive abilities however you want. The abilities are just a bit at odds with one another (like a lot of monk abilities that I intend to rectify).
Well, I was more wondering because there are a lot of abilities that focus on being unarmed. If you'd rather use a quarterstaff, I can replace the unarmed based abilities with more quarterstaffy/monk weapony things.
Ok, so I see a conflicting theme. You seem both be very fast/agile (the evasions, the flowing stuff, the defensive roll stuff) and super though (the Bastion Stuff, Adamantine Monk, Iron Limb Stuff).
This isn't necessarily a problem, just a little odd. If you were going to focus on one more than the other, which would it be?
Also, I see nothing specifically staff related.
Hey all, sorry I've been so quiet. Work has been really hectic. -_-
Anyway, I might have some time this week to work out something and look some things over. I have a weeding to be in next weekend and will not really be available past Thursday, until probably Monday night.
Anyway, throw some things out there and I'll take a look and throw some ideas around with you. : )
Aku Warashi wrote:
He is alive for more than 300.000 years. (Sorry, to big of a number, I don't know how to write it.)
In U.S. numerics, use commas for every three digits from the right, and a period between things greater than one, and things less than one.
ex: 300,000 and 2,500,000 and 3.14159
U.K English uses spaces instead of commas, and a comma instead of a period.
ex: 300 000 and 2 500 000 and 3,14159
I'm not sure which Canada uses.
Glad it helps. And sorry about the link earlier, I though I had it set to public, but apparently it didn't save. It should work now.
And the 'Close' weapons group contains:
Ok, I took a look at it and it is an interesting concept, but it looks a lot like you basically took the fighter, pre-picked some feats, and swapped Bravery for some Barbarian abilities.
My issue is that I think the fighter is usually rather underpowered, and very gear dependent. That said, I don't think your workup is un-usable, it just needs some tweaking and sprucing. I put together a suggested progression for you. Let me know what you think.
Also, some general comment:
You should also get at least one knowledge, probably two. I'd probably put engineering and history.
-- Class abilities --
Armored swiftness is odd. You already have armor training, but you didn't copy all of the text from the fighter version, which already has this line:
So it seems like armored swiftness's only use is to reduce your speed penalty while wearing heavy armor for level 3-6. Unless you meant to leave that line off of armor training, but then you never get full speed while wearing armor.
What were you ultimately wanting out of that?
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The uncanny dodge abilities seem odd for an armored hulk. I'd swap them for the Fortification ability from the Armor Master Fighter Archetype. Basically, it gives you Light Fortification, and eventually Medium Fortification, while wearing armor.
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Weapon Training: This is oddly specific. Looking at existing fighter archetypes, I'd go with the close combatant ability from the Brawler. In this case that would mean getting weapon training with 'Close Weapons' (see Ultimate Combat) and give a +1 to hit and a +3 to damage. This increases until it reaches +5 to hit and +7 damage.
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Damage Reduction: This isn't a bad idea, but the Unarmed Fighter Archetype has something that seems more thematic called "Tough Guy" that I've changed slightly and renamed Toughness. I also modified Armor Mastery to be more in line with that new ability.
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I added a few more feats and changed a couple to abilities. The reason I did this is because it would be pretty much impossible for you to qualify for some of them normally with the regular fighter feat progression. They are all related to grappling or taking advantage of your high AC.
@Sloade (how do you pronounce that, by the way?)
Not bad. You get one more feat though (1 for being 1st level, 1 for being human, 1 for your class).
It'll be interesting to see how you do. On the one hand, fighters tend to be a little underwhelming (crunch wise), and the lack of magic equipment concerns me about you. On the other hand, it sounds like you should have a wicked high AC in the long run, and with healing being so slow, avoiding getting hit might be much more valuable than it used to be.
Yeah, this is going to be an interesting group. We're all heavy armor types, and all fairly unconventional. Maybe we'll get some kind of special recognition for it, an odd title or group name.
The Bridgeburner Deviancy Battalion!
or something much better than that : )
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@Briccone, I don't know your backstory, so I can't how it fits your character. The stats definitely don't seem any more powerful than blondebandit or I.
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@blondebandit, Do you mean the spell Detect Trap? Or the trapfinding ability like a Rogue? I'm going to assume the latter.
The only thing that seems odd for that swap, is that Dodging Panache is something that you have to spend your Panache on (a semi-limited resource) while Trapfinding is always usable (for the skill bonuses if nothing else).
Though I'm honestly not sure what to shift around for it. Looking at other classes, Trapfinding seems to fall somewhere between a feat and half a feat.
As my backstory might have indicated, I was going to focus on Denul.
But when you presented your class templates before, you indicated that we might get access to multiple warrens. Is that still true? And if it is, am I correct in assuming it will not be at level 1?
And what about the spellcraft skill?
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On a silly side note, why isn't fire simple the absence of cold? Or light the absence of dark?
This was something that Mage talked about a lot, that one of the ways to think of the elements was not in terms of one absolute element (cold is the absence of heat), but in a sliding scale (cold and fire are opposite ends of a single scale, and introduction or removal of either element pushes the scale one direction or the other).
Not that I'm trying to change your mind, just mentioning an interesting alternate view. : )
Oh, just thought of another one. How is the warren stuff going to interact with skills? Is spellcraft still a thing? Does it represent the same thing? Can it be used to identify 'spells'?
Do Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Planes) still give you knowledge about magic (other than identifying individual spells)?
Huh, that will be interesting. I'm not proficient with the short sword, the shortbow, or any shields. So wooo for two handing a short spear! : )
I'll probably have a handful of backstory items.
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As for stats:
Ok, I always have the hardest time with this whole 'assign whatever stats' thing, mostly because I always waffle between "Am I going too far?" and "Am I going to be effective?" and "Am I representing them properly?". And this is extra thrown off by a mis-perception of what the character should be.
It's kind of like, when you imagine how your character is going to be in a CRPG, it's always being awesome, with lots of HP and glorious weapons slaying dragons and demons. And then you start off with a wooden sword killing rats for coppers, and keeping a finger on the 'potion' button just in case you attract the attention of two rats.
Anyway, just ranting.
Str: 16 - A warrior is strong (unless you're a Moranth Swashbuckler : ) )
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Story wise, I can start at any time (you've received the three major parts of my backstory).
Crunch-wise, let me put some stuff together and I'll create a sheet.
The only crunch questions I have left are about the warrens. Do we get to choose one at first level? Does it depend on what kind of caster we are/were?
Also, would it be possible to get some sample 'spells' for each warren? For example, Denul is healing. Is that literally only healing, or can it also cause inflictions? Can it be used to enhance the body (a la healing it better than it was, something like Bear's Endurance or Bull's Strength)?
Is something like Break Enchantment covered under Mockra (because of mind) or Denul (because of healing)?
Is Speak With Animals Mockra (pulling and placing information in their mind) or Tennes (Nature stuff)?
Can Thyr (light) turn lights off, producing darkness? Can Rashan (shadow) 'remove shadow' and produce light? Can Meanas (shadow and illusion) generate illusions that do both/either?
Which warren, if any, handles divinations? Or is it things like: Telas users can use fire as a scrying beacon and can look for divinations from the flames, while the touched of Ruse require water instead?
I mean, I get that we aren't just using spells as they exist today, but I'm curious as to how the lines that divide the warrens are drawn, and just how fuzzy they are.
I can agree with BlondeBandit on that overall. Though it wouldn't be unreasonable for us to have some keepsakes from before we joined up.
Though nothing says that all soldiers would have the exact same gear, just gear in the same style and markings. It could easily be handled (game-wise, not story-wise) by giving us a pool of gold from which we must buy at least one weapon and one piece of armor, with the leftover being spent directly on combat related-gear.
I've not looked at any of the raging swan stuff, so I can't really comment on it.
And I can agree with BlondeBandit. Level 1 sounds good as long as we aren't quite expected to be these super-elite troops yet. Though I guess being a PC class does make us kind of elite compared to being a 'warrior'. : )
Nice setup Blondebandit. I haven’t run numbers, but since it is almost the same as the base class, it should be ok.
Some comments though:
Overall though, nice.
@DM Aku, the Morinth do have a neat thing going for them.
I was looking for various sample images and found something that sounds like the Morinth to me: Link
As far as starting at level 1 or 4, I’m torn just like Blondebandit on that one. We’re an Elite unit, so it seems odd to start at level 1. But starting at level one would give us a good opportunity to try and catch up to the game lore.