Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows


Homebrew and House Rules

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
ciretose wrote:
The devs write the product well enough that we pay for it.
Well, y'all do anyway. :)
Complaining about product you spend no money on is so un-American. ;-)

I've spent a couple grand in the Paizo store, I still have a few months of entitled whining allowed. ;)

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Removed a whole bunch of sidetrack trainwreck off-topickyness. This thread is problematic enough without people lobbing accusations of trollery and insults back and forth. If you really have something to contribute on the monk discussion at hand, go for it, otherwise maybe take it to PM or see if it's a nice day outside and go for a walk instead.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Removed some more posts. Seriously, if it's not about the monk, it doesn't belong in this thread.


I totally see your point, Dabbler.

I just believe that the developers intentions most definitely constitute a "relevant contributory factor".

Do not get me wrong, Dabbler, I respect you and your knowledge of the system. Just as I respect the opinions and knowledge of many who post here including Master Arminas, Talonhawke, Odraude and many more.

I just came down on the other side of the fence from you guys on this one.


That's cool with me, Weslocke. Sorry if my response was considered off-topic, Gary.

Back on the monk subject, if Paizo go for a complete re-write, how will they handle existing material? And how will they release this re-write?

Liberty's Edge

I think a number of us have at various times offered a number of different ideas on ways to improve the monk.

At the end of the day, here 5 years in is probably a good time for a revised core rule book, particularly if we are at a point where the devs think it needs more than they can do in a patch.

NOT A NEW EDITION, a completely compatible edition that uses lessons learned to clarify and correct.

I don't think most people would mind an update, so long as it still works with existing materials.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
BYC wrote:

Like I said, item fix.

They can't change the BAB because HD is married to it.

Meh, this is a soft rule at best. The barbarian has d12, not d10, and has full BAB.

Adding one more exception, the monk with d8 and full BAB, (IMO) doesn't seem like that much of a deal breaker.

Of course, being a huge proponent of monks, I'm all for giving monks d10 hp and full BAB. Maybe as a design trade-off they are given weak fort saves? This brings them nicely in line with other full BAB classes that have two strong save columns, like the ranger and paladin.


Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:
BYC wrote:

Like I said, item fix.

They can't change the BAB because HD is married to it.

Meh, this is a soft rule at best. The barbarian has d12, not d10, and has full BAB.

Adding one more exception, the monk with d8 and full BAB, (IMO) doesn't seem like that much of a deal breaker.

Of course, being a huge proponent of monks, I'm all for giving monks d10 hp and full BAB. Maybe as a design trade-off they are given weak fort saves? This brings them nicely in line with other full BAB classes that have two strong save columns, like the ranger and paladin.

That is a good point. Barbarians already break the BAB married to HD arguement, thus Monks don't have to be if the designers don't wish it.


I think they should have a monk superstar competition. they should redisgn the class , then the weapons, then the archetypes, then the vows.

like RPG superstar but solely Focusing on the monk and all things monkish.
then make a ultimate monk book and eratta what needs to be changed.


Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:
Of course, being a huge proponent of monks, I'm all for giving monks d10 hp and full BAB. Maybe as a design trade-off they are given weak fort saves?

I'd rather keep my good save instead of getting d10 hp. I don't see why HD and BAB have to be related. And the monk has full BAB already for the most part already.


to throw in my two cents, I've had a player as a monk in one of my groups, and we have been using the incorrect interpretation and as far as player balance, the monk doesn't stand out as over the top. I'm thinking the RAW should be modified to be more similar to the rules as misinterpreted.

Liberty's Edge

The issue with the ruling as was is that it further exacerbated the disparity between the monks iconic weapon (unarmed) and any other weapon.

As I said other threads, I would be fine if it was decided it was always meant to be twf, so long as you make unarmed strikes as viable to hitting as actual weapons.


Spahrep wrote:
I'm thinking the RAW should be modified to be more similar to the rules as misinterpreted.

Ah, a new acronym: RAM - rules as misinterpreted.

Liberty's Edge

Can we also add "Rule as cheesed" = RAC


Personally I think changing the Monk as little as possible is the way to go.

1. Change the intent to match the misinterpretation and let Monks flurry with a single weapon.

2. Introduce Monk's Gloves that add an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks (and ONLY unarmed attacks) that go up to +8 (Max +5 numbered bonus plus effects of course) and cost bonusx4000.

The gloves would make them cost exactly as much as enchanting two weapons. They can't be disarmed or sundered, and get the Monk's enhanced damage dice, but they also are twice as expensive as a single weapon and not made of cold iron, alchemical silver or adamantine. They can not be enchanted separately for different effects (one cold, one fire for example). Would these become a staple item for an unarmed Monk? Sure, just like buying a magic weapon is for every fighting class. Every class, no exception, has to enchant their primary weapon in some way. There is no reason for the Monk to be different.


Lord Twig wrote:

Personally I think changing the Monk as little as possible is the way to go.

1. Change the intent to match the misinterpretation and let Monks flurry with a single weapon.

2. Introduce Monk's Gloves that add an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks (and ONLY unarmed attacks) that go up to +8 (Max +5 numbered bonus plus effects of course) and cost bonusx4000.

The gloves would make them cost exactly as much as enchanting two weapons. They can't be disarmed or sundered, and get the Monk's enhanced damage dice, but they also are twice as expensive as a single weapon and not made of cold iron, alchemical silver or adamantine. They can not be enchanted separately for different effects (one cold, one fire for example). Would these become a staple item for an unarmed Monk? Sure, just like buying a magic weapon is for every fighting class. Every class, no exception, has to enchant their primary weapon in some way. There is no reason for the Monk to be different.

That's the crux of the problem right there, folks. Are unarmed strikes TWO (or more) weapons? I say no that they are not. Other people have a differing opinion on that. Unarmed strikes (or attacks) can be made with the fists, feet, punches, kicks, elbows, headbutts, knees as a matter of fluff, to explain that the unarmed martial artist (whether a monk, fighter, barbarian, or what-have-you) doesn't have to have a hand free in order to make an unarmed attack.

After all, you don't get bonus damage for kicks (even though kicks are usually more powerful than punches in real life) and the closest the rules come to a knee in the groin is with dirty tricks.

And yet, nearly everyone wants to charge people who want to make unarmed attacks for two weapons. In my opinion, this is just a wealth tax upon players who want to fight unarmed. Why? Because you can't take away their fists and feet, their elbows and knees, and their heads.

While you guys are taking a look at flurry of blows, please consider doing something about resolving this.

Master Arminas


Honestly I was thinking that Unarmed Strike is just one weapon.

Now obviously when a Monk uses Flurry of Blows he gets the same number of attacks as a two weapon fighter. So I priced it like enchanting two weapons.

But wait! What if you don't have Flurry of Blows and just want to punch people? Now you are paying twice as much for one (weak) weapon. So we could just price the Monk Gloves (and I assume that you have to buy them as a pair) that I proposed above as one weapon and just let the Monk get the extra benefit of using them to flurry.

Now we have a couple new problems. First, the gloves would make a Monk's unarmed strike better than any other Monk weapon by far. Second, what if an unarmed melee type (not a Monk) took Two Weapon Fighting as a feat? Can he attack with Unarmed Strike twice, or not?

I'm really not sure where I am going with this. But there are definitely some design problems that you would have to answer.


Yes, a monk gets extra attacks with flurry of blows. But that is NOT the same as two-weapon fighting. In my view, it is a problem with flurry as written (from 3.0 onwards) that makes the monk deliver many multiple attempts to hit. A better flurry might be that the monk gains up to three additional attacks at his highest attack bonus (at 1st, 8th, and 15th level) that REPLACE his iterative attacks when he makes a flurry of blows.

That gives the monk 1-4 attacks when making a flurry (+1 from ki from 4th level onwards). However, instead of +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 like a 20th level monk is now, those attacks would be at +15/+15/+15/+15. Removes some of the randomness from monk attacks and puts him 5 points behind the full BAB martial crowd on attacks. If the developers added Weapons Training (Monk group) at 5th level, that would put him EXACTLY 5 points behind the Fighter. Which is where he should be. Not 10 or 11 or 12, but FIVE (or SIX if the fighter takes Greater Weapon Focus).

That would give the monk something unique that is ONLY his. Sure his first attack (and maybe his second) is lower than a Fighters. But his third and fourth and (perhaps) fifth? Higher than the fighter's iterative. Put a line in there that a monk cannot combine flurry of blows with two-weapon fighting for additional attacks.

Solves almost everything, doesn't it?

Now, back to the pricing. I agree that the person who uses unarmed strikes should pay a bit more because he can't have his weapons stolen, or sundered, or disarmed, or removed by the King's guards. Bonus x bonus x 2,500 gp or bonus x bonus x 3,000 gp would both be acceptable. That would put a +1 at 2,500 (or 3,000), a +2 at 10,000 (or 12,000), a +3 at 22,500 (or 27,000), a +4 at 40,000 (or 48,000), and a +5 at 62,500 (or 75,000). Much less than an amulet of mighty fists, but still more expensive than a single weapon. I could live with that.

Master Arminas

Master Arminas


Lord Twig wrote:

Honestly I was thinking that Unarmed Strike is just one weapon.

Now obviously when a Monk uses Flurry of Blows he gets the same number of attacks as a two weapon fighter. So I priced it like enchanting two weapons.

That justification is also why the AoMF is as expensive as it is. That's why I came up with the Ring of Unerring Strikes - grants an enhancement bonus to hit only (not damage) to all weapons held including unarmed strike. Capped at +5, no special effects, but counts as magic weapon for bypassing DR and can stack with the AoMF's enhancement to damage and special effects. Cost is bonus squared x 3000gp. More than one weapon, less than two, and less than a full enhancement effect (but hey, unarmed damage scales anyway).

Advantage of this is that it doesn't make the AoMF redundant (something the devs do not want to do), doesn't give away too much, and at the same time doesn't cost too much either. Added goodness is that it has other uses to other classes as well.

The monks problem is hitting the target and getting through DR, not necessarily dishing damage to it.


I will agree that your method would give the Monk a boost in power, Master Arminas, but I personally would prefer to keep the extra attacks the Monk gets currently. To me that just has more of a feel of Flurry of Blows. Plus what you are suggesting would be a major change, something that might be in a new revision, but I think would be too radical for an errata. Just my opinion of course.

And you are right on the pricing, a cost of bonusxbonusx3000 would make it costly for a single UAS fighter, but cost effective for a TWF. But as the Unarmed Strike is a little weak to begin with, I don't think it would be overpowered.

SKR had mentioned in the past not wanting to invalidate the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but I really don't think there is anyway around it. It was nice that they reduced the price in Pathfinder from 3.5, but it still wasn't enough. And the amulet would still be useful for shapechanging druids and animal companions and things like that. Maybe it should just be renamed to Amulet of Natures Fury or something to reflect the new role?

Anyway, I look forward to an official ruling soon. Mostly just so I can see what the developers think is a good way to fix the Monk. I have my own house rules of course, but then I don't need to worry about power gamers breaking my rules.


Lord Twig wrote:

Personally I think changing the Monk as little as possible is the way to go.

1. Change the intent to match the misinterpretation and let Monks flurry with a single weapon.

2. Introduce Monk's Gloves that add an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks (and ONLY unarmed attacks) that go up to +8 (Max +5 numbered bonus plus effects of course) and cost bonusx4000.

The gloves would make them cost exactly as much as enchanting two weapons. They can't be disarmed or sundered, and get the Monk's enhanced damage dice, but they also are twice as expensive as a single weapon and not made of cold iron, alchemical silver or adamantine. They can not be enchanted separately for different effects (one cold, one fire for example). Would these become a staple item for an unarmed Monk? Sure, just like buying a magic weapon is for every fighting class. Every class, no exception, has to enchant their primary weapon in some way. There is no reason for the Monk to be different.

Sadly, I don't think that's going to work. I'd have to agree with SKR: This is a class that has serious systemic issues, and needs to be heavily reworked. No matter how you fix the magic item mess (see also: ARGH, although I totally love your ideas for that), you've still got a class whose main features clash between mobility and standing stock-still whilst delivering a beat-down. UNLESS you go Flowing Monk, (and possibly double up archetypes with Monk of the Sacred Mountain)...and has a whole bunch of other class confusions including the inadequacy of Ki Pool, MAD, and a really wonky role.

If you go back to the 3.5 style of Monk, the class's ability to hit things gets worse, and it definitely isn't a Frontline Fighter anymore. It would need class support on the level of Spells or Sneak Attack to keep up with everyone else, and give it things that it can USE to make it's massive move speed something dangerous and deadly in a pinch: People need to be AFRAID of what happens when the monk manages to zip across the battlefield and hit something unexpectedly.

If you stick to the Pathfinder view of "Monk is a Frontline Combatant with a shtick" like the Ranger, Cavalier, or Paladin, then it needs actual Full BAB and class support as a combatant. A LOT of monk's problems in regards to combat would be solved if it had Full BAB, because then it would actually be able to make full use of it's massive feat front-load. It would also qualify for a billion new possible combinations with that change. All the issues of not being able to make use of Monk Mobility seem to go away when you can pick up the Vital Strike tree the way a fighter would, and clean house from anywhere on the battlefield.

I can't wait to see what happens when Paizo revisits the Pathfinder Monk. It's going to be AWESOME. =D


Medium BAB would be fine, if they added Weapons Training and gave us a means of enhancing unarmed strikes that do not cost a literal arm and leg. I like my idea of being able to spend 1 point of ki to gain a second attack on a charge, a Spring Attack, or a standard attack. That, right there, would be worthwhile, combined with a medium BAB, weapons training, and a relatively inexpensive way to get enhancement bonuses.

If you went with the flurry replacing iterative attacks, then sure the monk's NUMBER of attacks goes down, but by 20th level he's attacking at +24/+24/+24/+24 (with another +24 if spends a point of ki): before strength or feats. (That is +15 BAB, +4 weapons training, +5 enhancement.)

At the same level a fighter has +29/+24/+19/+14, before strength or feats (+20 BAB, +4 weapons training, +5 enhancement).

Both can get another +2 from buying gloves of dueling.

Heck, make the weapon training so it only gives bonus to hit on unarmed strikes, and both bonuses to hit and damage with weapons! Damage isn't the problem: hitting in the first place is.

If they did this change, or any of the changes that other people have suggested, it would reduce the difference between monks and other martial characters to 5 points of attack bonus (6 with greater weapon focus). Which I, as a player, can live with for a fast-moving, light skirmisher warrior. I'll give up 5 points on attack bonuses for the rest of the monk's stuff gladly. 10 or 11? Not so much.

Master Arminas

Silver Crusade

From a flavor point of view, Revan's self-enhancing take on the monk is ideal personally. Monk enhances his unarmed strike directly by himself, using appropriately priced incense and scrolls containing martial and ascetic wisdom.

Of course as long as keeping the AoMF desirable to monks remains a sticking point, we'll probably never see this happen. Damn if it wouldn't be awesome though. It would just feel right.

Keeping the Amulet of Mighty Fists as written sacrosanct is just one of the things that continues to hold back the monk as well as other options that could help him. The best workaround I've seen so far is Dabbler's To Hit ring, which from a flavor point of view is far less grating(certainly less so visually) than the amulet itself, even as it was designed to work with and complete that item.


Here's the problem with things that boost all of a monks attacks including weapons.... they work on classes other than monks. The devs did whiffle the ball a bit on this one, but they ain't stupid.

If a monk can use a ring or whatever to boost all his temple sword attacks, then some summoner's eidolon with a dozen arms and a weapon in each can do the same, leading to the old "Cuisinart" character.

Thus, any such item needs to have a limitation it can only be used by Monks. But how to word that, without allowing a PC with a one level monk dip, or croking a monk who has a one level dip? And, without going into a page of legalese. Remember the old 3.5 "monks belt" that instead of being worn by monks, was instead the first choice of druids (who added a dingus to make it work in wildshape)?

So, yeah, the devs whiffled the ball a bit on this one. But they admit it, and they are working on a fix.


Unless they intend to add the magic item to the CRB, I don't endorse the plan as "the fix". As others have said, the Monk's problems are systemic and I don't like having to use UM or UC or other "additional books" to fix what's broken in Core.


DrDeth wrote:

Here's the problem with things that boost all of a monks attacks including weapons.... they work on classes other than monks. The devs did whiffle the ball a bit on this one, but they ain't stupid.

If a monk can use a ring or whatever to boost all his temple sword attacks, then some summoner's eidolon with a dozen arms and a weapon in each can do the same, leading to the old "Cuisinart" character.

Thus, any such item needs to have a limitation it can only be used by Monks. But how to word that, without allowing a PC with a one level monk dip, or croking a monk who has a one level dip? And, without going into a page of legalese. Remember the old 3.5 "monks belt" that instead of being worn by monks, was instead the first choice of druids (who added a dingus to make it work in wildshape)?

So, yeah, the devs whiffled the ball a bit on this one. But they admit it, and they are working on a fix.

Eidolons use natural attacks not unarmed strikes. If they do try to use unarmed strikes they are restricted to BAB so the number or arms they have won't matter.

Silver Crusade

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Goes back to the calls for an AoMF-style item that enhanced only unarmed strikes and not natural attacks. IIRC, this was shot down because making the distinction between unarmed strikes and natural attacks was too metagamey back in the Ultimate Equipment wishlist thread, where this flurry thing started..

Then again, the Improved Natural Attack feat, which in 3.x was often an option for monks and in PF has been locked out for them, does just that.

What's good for the monsters should be good for the monk, eh? Give the natural attack crowd their special thing. Give the monk his special thing.


My own personal solution is an "item" in the form of supernatural martial arts techniques; they are not actually physical items but function as an enchantment on the user's unarmed strikes. Only one can be used at a time, and they don't work on natural weapons since they require certain stances and strikes that don't include bites and claws.


Lord Twig wrote:
I will agree that your method would give the Monk a boost in power, Master Arminas, but I personally would prefer to keep the extra attacks the Monk gets currently. To me that just has more of a feel of Flurry of Blows.

Seconded.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:

Here's the problem with things that boost all of a monks attacks including weapons.... they work on classes other than monks. The devs did whiffle the ball a bit on this one, but they ain't stupid.

If a monk can use a ring or whatever to boost all his temple sword attacks, then some summoner's eidolon with a dozen arms and a weapon in each can do the same, leading to the old "Cuisinart" character.

Thus, any such item needs to have a limitation it can only be used by Monks. But how to word that, without allowing a PC with a one level monk dip, or croking a monk who has a one level dip? And, without going into a page of legalese. Remember the old 3.5 "monks belt" that instead of being worn by monks, was instead the first choice of druids (who added a dingus to make it work in wildshape)?

Nothing easier than that. Tie it to Monk class levels.


Just what I thought, too.


There are a lot of suggestions in this thread and on these boards about ways of redesigning the monk. A 'Monk Design' competition may not be that bad an idea, but I think a lot of the monk has to be kept as-is in order to maintain the current archetypes and feats as relevant (or at least, update them all to keep their current flavour).


Lord Twig wrote:


SKR had mentioned in the past not wanting to invalidate the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but I really don't think there is anyway around it.

That's irrelevant. The Paizo staff know that everything about the monk needs to be fixed. If part of the solution involves a change to the Amulet of Mighty Fists, so be it.

Of course, a change to the Amulet of Mighty Fists may affect druids and animal companions. The Paizo staff will need to take that into consideration.


wraithstrike wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Here's the problem with things that boost all of a monks attacks including weapons.... they work on classes other than monks. The devs did whiffle the ball a bit on this one, but they ain't stupid.

If a monk can use a ring or whatever to boost all his temple sword attacks, then some summoner's eidolon with a dozen arms and a weapon in each can do the same, leading to the old "Cuisinart" character.

Thus, any such item needs to have a limitation it can only be used by Monks. But how to word that, without allowing a PC with a one level monk dip, or croking a monk who has a one level dip? And, without going into a page of legalese. Remember the old 3.5 "monks belt" that instead of being worn by monks, was instead the first choice of druids (who added a dingus to make it work in wildshape)?

So, yeah, the devs whiffled the ball a bit on this one. But they admit it, and they are working on a fix.

Eidolons use natural attacks not unarmed strikes. If they do try to use unarmed strikes they are restricted to BAB so the number or arms they have won't matter.

I wasn't talking about unarmed strikes or natural attacks. I was talking about attacks with weapons, like a temple sword.


master arminas wrote:

Medium BAB would be fine, if they added Weapons Training and gave us a means of enhancing unarmed strikes that do not cost a literal arm and leg. I like my idea of being able to spend 1 point of ki to gain a second attack on a charge, a Spring Attack, or a standard attack. That, right there, would be worthwhile, combined with a medium BAB, weapons training, and a relatively inexpensive way to get enhancement bonuses.

If you went with the flurry replacing iterative attacks, then sure the monk's NUMBER of attacks goes down, but by 20th level he's attacking at +24/+24/+24/+24 (with another +24 if spends a point of ki): before strength or feats. (That is +15 BAB, +4 weapons training, +5 enhancement.)

At the same level a fighter has +29/+24/+19/+14, before strength or feats (+20 BAB, +4 weapons training, +5 enhancement).

Both can get another +2 from buying gloves of dueling.

Heck, make the weapon training so it only gives bonus to hit on unarmed strikes, and both bonuses to hit and damage with weapons! Damage isn't the problem: hitting in the first place is.

If they did this change, or any of the changes that other people have suggested, it would reduce the difference between monks and other martial characters to 5 points of attack bonus (6 with greater weapon focus). Which I, as a player, can live with for a fast-moving, light skirmisher warrior. I'll give up 5 points on attack bonuses for the rest of the monk's stuff gladly. 10 or 11? Not so much.

Master Arminas

Honestly, I think you're missing the big issue here. If you want Monk to stay a 3/4 BAB class, then it needs something AT LEAST as powerful as Sneak Attack, or Spellcasting/Martial Maneuvers in order to function at the level of the other 3/4 BAB Classes. Flurrying replacing iterative attacks like that...is both too powerful, and not powerful enough. It's Middle Ground, and Current Monk is in the position it's in because it's constantly stuck in the Middle Ground between classes.

Suggestions for this route:
-Restore 3.5 Flurry, but ADD Spells as "Secret Techniques" born from martial skill, Ala Book of the Nine Swords/Qingong Monk. Total power level should be up to at least 6th level spells by level 20 Change nothing else.

-Flurry of Blows as a high-damage class feature that you can use to automatically hit 1 target every round, IF you hit the target with an attack using your normal BAB first, used as a Free Action. It can be applied to any 1 attack you make in a round, including attacks of opportunity, but it can be used no more than once every round. At lower levels, you can use any 1 combat manuever in conjunction with Flurry of Blows (rolling CMB vs. CMD as normal) with no risk of attacks-of-opportunity. At higher levels, make that 2 combat maneuvers, and maybe a max of 3 near level 20. This represents a fast combination of deadly techniques as seen in monks in Cinema and in Legend. (As for how much damage Flurry of Blows does? Call it an amount of d8s of damage at every odd-numbered level, just like Sneak Attack, can be done fluff-wise with any weapon, because you only do the d8s in damage. Unlike Sneak Attack, it works on EVERYTHING, no exceptions. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, ghosts, it doesn't matter: New Flurry works on them, end of story. For purposes of bypassing Damage Reduction, it counts as adding damage on top of the attack used to activate it. Finally, add feats that let you add special effects to your flurry depending on what weapon you use for it.) This concept is similar to how 4E did Monk. If this suggestion is taken...just have THIS Flurry of Blows replace Current Flurry of Blows, and make certain to keep Maneuver Training as a Monk Class Feature. Also, Add ALL maneuver related feats to the Monk Bonus Feat list. Suddenly, you've got a whole new class that does everything people want with one change.

-Fix MAD, or determine if the above is so awesome that MAD is required.

Meanwhile, If you want Monk to be a Frontline Fighter, then it needs full BAB to meet frontline fighting feat prerequisites. It could also use a d10 hit die.

Suggestions for this route:
-Monk remains largely the same. However, Give them the option to Vital Strike with Spring Attack, or just give them Vital Strike for free, and suddenly all the complaints about Monk being a highly mobile skirmisher who can't skirmish go away. Suddenly, the vast majority of complaints about Monk (with the exception of MAD) are fixed.

-Find a way to fix MAD, or determine if the above makes things so awesome that MAD is required.

There is no middle ground. Monk as it currently exists has the unfortunate position of existing entirely because it tried to walk on that middle ground full of sad half-bonuses and conditional class features.

No more fixes that leave monk trapped on the middle ground. No more Middle Ground Bonuses and Class Features. It's got to pick a position: 3/4 BAB with all the magical/skill/combat weirdness that 3/4 BAB class gets, or Full BAB brute force.

Thanks for reading!


While it is true that the monk needs fixing, for the sake of backward compatibility it makes sense to change as little as possible in order to achieve a fix unless there is good reason.

Liberty's Edge

This is where I disagree with SKR. The amulet of mighty fists is not a monk thing at this point. It is a fine item as is for druids, monsters, animal companions, etc...

The issue is that unarmed attacks are less likely to hit, because you can't enhance them.

Fit the attack bonus on unarmed strikes by allowing them to be enhanced, and you fix most of the problems without creating new ones.


I'm as big a fan of Backward Compatibility as the next guy. After all, my suggestions are no larger a conversion than the one from Flurry as Extra Attacks at Highest Base Attack Bonus to Full-BAB-W/Two-Weapon-Fighting.

Does it matter though? Monk didn't work right in 3.0. It didn't work right in 3.5. I'd even put money on it not working in AD&D. About the only testimonial we've got of it working is from 1st Edition.

Backward Compatibility is something that only makes sense IF how things worked before actually worked well. We're not religious figures following intractable Dogma, we're gamers looking for a fix to a longstanding issue. I've got some words not suited for polite society regarding my feelings toward "Backward Compatibility Issues" in this scenario. In any case, my above suggestions require at most 1 to 2 changes on things that weren't changed until Pathfinder came out anyway.

So I've got two major battle cries at this stage in the game:

1: No More Middle Ground Class Features and Half-Bonuses! Real bonuses, and real class features please!

2: If it's a choice between a class that works, and Backward Compatibility, I'd much prefer a class that works, please!

...you'll note that my battlecries are very polite and orderly. There's no reason we can't be civil, and can't say please. ~_^

Dark Archive

Item fix.

It's the cleanest and easiest way to handle it.

Assuming Paizo is not going to change FoB = TWF.

Dark Archive

I remember a while ago I would allow using a ki point change FoB into a standard action for 1 round.

Move and attack abilities are generally very strong for obvious reasons. But the monk is weak enough to actually allow this.


Imagine taking a new player aside, and explaining how to play a monk: "okay, you get this bonus when you're standing still, but this other bonus when you're doing x, y, and z." Then, "you can use these feats, but not these others, because it doesn't qualify for x, but it qualifies for y."

...and so on.

My wish is for the monk to be streamlined. As for monk needing oomph "like other 3/4 classes, like the rogue" that may be a slippery slope. Everyone always wants more. The rogue is its own source of complaints.


Really, I mean like Rogue, or Bard, or anyone who has a supplemental ability strong enough to keep them relevant and interesting once a fight starts.


ciretose wrote:
Fit the attack bonus on unarmed strikes by allowing them to be enhanced, and you fix most of the problems without creating new ones.

It's the biggest issue with the monk, but not by far the only onem fixing it would be only a start. Almost equally big is how MAD the class is, then there's flurry of blows and the issues of 3/4 or full BAB, TWF or not TWF, move or full attack, it's enough to drive you nuts. Then all the class features that are simply not fit-for-purpose.

I'm with RF and Ruggs, if you are going to overhaul the monk, by all means keep the spirit of the 3.5 monk alive as much as possible, but if it needs fixing, don;t leave it broken.

Dark Archive

These are the times I kind of wish there was a medium level of save bonuses.

We have high BAB, medium, and low. But we only have 2 save levels, good or bad. Medium level would add an additional balancing. Like giving fighters medium Will saves would be nice.


Instead of adding a new item to replace Amulet of Might Fist, you could always errata it like this:

Quote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists

Aura faint evocation; CL 5th

Slot neck; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5), 72,000 (+6), 98,000 (+7), 128,000 (+8), 162,000 (+9), 200,000 (+10); Weight —

Description

This amulet enhances unarmed strikes or one natural weapon to strike more truly and deliver more damage. The amulet enhancement bonuses ranges from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. The character must choose to either apply this bonus to his unarmed strikes or choose one natural weapon. He makes this decision when the amulet is first put on. He may change which attack is enhanced at a later time by taking the amulet off and putting it back on as a full round action.

Some amulets grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the amulet, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single natural weapon or unarmed strike cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. An amulet with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. The amulet cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

An Amulet of Might Fists may be enchanted to add it's bonus to more than one attack. The cost for these amulets is equal to the number of attacks enhanced times the base cost of the amulet. So a +2 amulet that adds to two attacks would cost 16,000, 3 attacks would cost 24,000, etc.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator's caster level must be at least twice the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 (+6), 49,000 (+7), 64,000 (+8), 81,000 (+9), 100,000 (+10)

Basically I made the Amulet of Mighty Fists just like a weapon enhancement, but only the Monk would really benefit from extra attacks with it.

If this is seen as too cheap, you can always make the cost x3000, or add 50% for each additional weapon. You can also reduce the total bonus from 10 down to 8 to make it similar to the Bracers of Armor.

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