| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why would anyone want to make a player regret taking a feat? Punish the player... in a game where everyone's supposed to have fun? I love this hobby, but I question the fans more and more I come to this website.
Renvale987, just talk with the player. Killing the cohort or otherwise punishing the player pretty much makes them lose interest in your game and quit or worse, they lash out at your game. Then no one is having fun. That's a fight nobody is going to win. I've seen it all too often because some GMs hate their authority being challenged and some players hate their creativity being stifled. Don't be spiteful, don't be passive aggressive, and don't punish him for taking a feat that you allowed. Sit down and talk it out like civilized people. Meet halfway and come to an accord you both can agree with. That way, you and the player can keep having fun and still be friends.
So I don't give my party member's Cohort or Animal Companion items at the price I craft them as the party's Wizard. Why? Otherwise I would be a tool and have no self worth.
What do you mean by "I"? Are you playing a Wizard character in the party? If you are, then you can do whatever you want with your Feat selections and you can charge whatever you like for any magic items you might choose to create.
But we're not not talking about a PC, are we?
We're talking about a PC's cohort, who is not a party tool. He's a "little" NPC that has chosen to follow one particular PC. Do you see the difference now?
So the DM just meta games and kills the cohort without anybody being to influence it
My don't you just have a problem with reading comprehension...
Killing a character that's 2 or 3 levels behind the party is very easy to do. If the Cohort's master doesn't look out for his companion during battle, and if the little guy starts popping off effective spells, then he becomes a very soft target indeed.
So many people seem to view Leadership as an extra Party Member / Indentured Servant, all for the price of a sinlge Feat slot. That dog simply won't hunt, as they say. A good DM balances the huge benefits of the Feat with some very real disadvantages.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the only problem with this cohort that needs to be worked out is his motivation -- What does he really want from the PC? Does he want adventure (in which case why did he specialize in item creation feats?), or would he actually be happier making stuff for the PC from the relative safety of a laboratory provided by the PC? In the latter case, the point he might balk at is making magic items at cost, since he probably would like to make some money on the deal. But how much money? Should it be a percentage of the magic item cost, a fixed salary, or just the assistance of one of the PCs in making an item that the cohort cannot make on his own? Those would be interesting issues to negotiate between the player and the cohort.
One point -- Don't be too demanding. A (relatively) safe working environment is worth a lot to this sort of NPC. He can live a quite luxurious lifestyle on what the PCs would consider a relative pittance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I don't give my party member's Cohort or Animal Companion items at the price I craft them as the party's Wizard. Why? Otherwise I would be a tool and have no self worth.What do you mean by "I"? Are you playing a Wizard character in the party? If you are, then you can do whatever you want with your Feat selections and you can charge whatever you like for any magic items you might choose to create.
But we're not not talking about a PC, are we?
We're talking about a PC's cohort, who is not a party tool. He's a "little" NPC that has chosen to follow one particular PC. Do you see the difference now?
Ah okay. So if a full blown epic Wizard level 18 makes a Headband of Vast Intellect for the Small Cat Companion of the Ranger its not a problem of self esteem.
But surely if the level 8 sorcerer Cohort of the Ranger (he has an AC, dumped charisma, travels alot and stuff...) is supposed to make a Brooch of Shielding for the 18th level Wizard, while he is hanging out in the fanciest place he has ever been in, he has no self esteem and will not do this.Got it!
So the DM just meta games and kills the cohort without anybody being to influence itMy don't you just have a problem with reading comprehension...
Killing a character that's 2 or 3 levels behind the party is very easy to do. If the Cohort's master doesn't look out for his companion during battle, and if the little guy starts popping off effective spells, then he becomes a very soft target indeed.
So many people seem to view Leadership as an extra Party Member / Indentured Servant, all for the price of a sinlge Feat slot. That dog simply won't hunt, as they say. A good DM balances the huge benefits of the Feat with some very real disadvantages.
It is? How so?
Did you ever see any cohort of mine? I bet most party members are easier to kill than those. Because they specialize on good saves with high AC and spend their rounds on buffing/healing the group.The Leadership feat comes with NO DISADVANTAGES. Period.
Everything else is a house rule and belongs to the house rules forum and not here.
But surely if the level 8 sorcerer Cohort of the Ranger (he has an AC, dumped charisma, travels alot and stuff...) is supposed to make a Brooch of Shielding for the 18th level Wizard, while he is hanging out in the fanciest place he has ever been in, he has no self esteem and will not do this.
The cohort would surely make that item, for the right amount of cash (which isn't half-off.) Why would the Ranger's cohort give preferential pricing to someone who isn't his Master? I mean, is he just stupid or something? The Master's party companion is already getting the advantage of having access to a skilled magical craftsman (the cohort) who takes custom orders. But that's not enough for you, oh no. You want more! It needs to be half-off or you're just being a mean DM who doesn't respect RAW!
Kinda funny, really.
It is? How so?
Did you ever see any cohort of mine? I bet most party members are easier to kill than those. Because they specialize on good saves with high AC and spend their rounds on...
Obviously I have never seen one of your PCs or even your Cohorts. They sound uber, just like you.
Down here, in the less-rare air, it has been my experience that a Cohort rolls out with a serious disadvantage in terms of combat-prowess. Even though he'll manage to gain levels and narrow the gap a bit, well-designed encounters that challange the party will likely be lethal for him (if he's allowed to fight as a full-party member.)
The Leadership Feat doesn't come with a lot of detailed info it, at least in terms of cohort motivation. As an NPC, it's really up to the DM to take the reigns and keep the player from abusing the resource.
Ioaba said:
Down here, in the less-rare air, it has been my experience that a Cohort rolls out with a serious disadvantage in terms of combat-prowess. Even though he'll manage to gain levels and narrow the gap a bit, well-designed encounters that challange the party will likely be lethal for him (if he's allowed to fight as a full-party member.)
This is one of the reasons I prefer my cohort to be a castellan/senechal type... they're so squishy in the dungeons...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But surely if the level 8 sorcerer Cohort of the Ranger (he has an AC, dumped charisma, travels alot and stuff...) is supposed to make a Brooch of Shielding for the 18th level Wizard, while he is hanging out in the fanciest place he has ever been in, he has no self esteem and will not do this.The cohort would surely make that item, for the right amount of cash (which isn't half-off.) Why would the Ranger's cohort give preferential pricing to someone who isn't his Master? I mean, is he just stupid or something? The Master's party companion is already getting the advantage of having access to a skilled magical craftsman (the cohort) who takes custom orders. But that's not enough for you, oh no. You want more! It needs to be half-off or you're just being a mean DM who doesn't respect RAW!
Kinda funny, really.
Why does the Wizard make an item for the Ranger's Animal Companion who is no party member!?
He must be STUPID!!!!1111
It is? How so?
Did you ever see any cohort of mine? I bet most party members are easier to kill than those. Because they specialize on good saves with high AC and spend their rounds on...Obviously I have never seen one of your PCs or even your Cohorts. They sound uber, just like you.
Down here, in the less-rare air, it has been my experience that a Cohort rolls out with a serious disadvantage in terms of combat-prowess. Even though he'll manage to gain levels and narrow the gap a bit, well-designed encounters that challange the party will likely be lethal for him (if he's allowed to fight as a full-party member.)
Ah okay. Now lets stop with those assumptions and get some numbers going.
Lets take the good old middle: level 10I have a cohort and you have an animal companion as a Ranger.
My cohort is level 8 and and your AC is 7th level.
Cohort:
8d8(first HD full)+8*con+8*1(fav class)
AC: 29+
Can heal himself and others
Can cast buffs
Can dispel debuffs
Can stay out of melee and be useful
Wolf Companion:
6d8+6*con
AC: 24+
Can trip people in melee
Yeah sure. That Cohort is REALLY going down all the time because he is not viable at all while other people's class features are really worth their money. He would even fare better in combat than the companion of a Druid.
The Leadership Feat doesn't come with a lot of detailed info it, at least in terms of cohort motivation. As an NPC, it's really up to the DM to take the reigns and keep the player from abusing the resource.
Benefits: This feat enables you to attract a loyal cohort and a number of devoted subordinates who assist you. A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels, while followers are typically lower level NPCs.
It is a LOYAL person. And if you do not give a LOYAL person a self harming order he will do it. The best way of getting people to put themselves in danger of dying for you and not having them run away is not paying them money it still is having their LOYALTY.
Which is btw. the same terminus that Paizo uses with Animal Companions of the Druid:This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.
And you wouldn't argue that the AC of the Druid is not pretty loyal to the Druid, would you?
By the way: Where is it stated that a DM controls ALL NPCs? Probably I just overlook that passage but I just can't find it.
Do you really take away the control of the Familiar of your Wizard from him as DM? Because he is a NPC? Do you really take away the control of the Animal Cohort of the Druid because it is a NPC?
And no matter who controls it. It still is still a LOYAL Cohort who will do almost everything you want from him because he is your LOYAL guy after all.
And no matter who controls it. It still is still a LOYAL Cohort who will do almost everything you want from him because he is your LOYAL guy after all.
I chose this one sentence from the above drivel because it illustrates my point perfectly - the PC's cohort is loyal to the individual, as you have said so yourself. That's individual, as in one person, not as in one group. There is nothing in the Leadership feat that says the cohort is loyal to your party companions.
If you command your cohort to service the other party members, for half-off no less, then you're no better than a pimp. I don't think they quite had that sort of master/servant relationship in mind when they developed this feat. Rather I think they were thinking of the stalwart man-at-arms, ever watching his master's back etc, etc.
But again - you look at Leadership as nothing more than a vehicle for creating custom-order magic items for the party, half-off!
Rock on with your bad-self.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I actually like the NPC this way. He's working in the same way as Q for James Bond. Group's quartermaster makes their gadgets while indulging it's technical genius in safety. It also creates potential hooks to quest for ingredients AND eliminates the need to have a magic shop at every corner... just inform the PCs that whatever their cohort makes is part of the wealth per level or give them normal prices, because the rest of the money are used for research, orkshop upkeep and pay for the NPC.
The catch is that Q isn't James Bond's cohort.
Q is M's cohort. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meet halfway and come to an accord you both can agree with. That way, you and the player can keep having fun and still be friends.
You should always discuss these things with the people at your table, that is the first and best rule.
For what it's worth, I *do* consider familiars and animal companions NPCs, as well as cohorts. If a PC asks it to do something straightforward, I usually don't make a fuss, but they also know that I may direct the creature's action at any time.
Same here. Whenever the Ranger's kitty picks up on something that maybe he didn't, that could be me using the familiar as way to give the PC a second chance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And no matter who controls it. It still is still a LOYAL Cohort who will do almost everything you want from him because he is your LOYAL guy after all.I chose this one sentence from the above drivel because it illustrates my point perfectly - the PC's cohort is loyal to the individual, as you have said so yourself. That's individual, as in one person, not as in one group. There is nothing in the Leadership feat that says the cohort is loyal to your party companions.
If you command your cohort to service the other party members, for half-off no less, then you're no better than a pimp. I don't think they quite had that sort of master/servant relationship in mind when they developed this feat. Rather I think they were thinking of the stalwart man-at-arms, ever watching his master's back etc, etc.
But again - you look at Leadership as nothing more than a vehicle for creating custom-order magic items for the party, half-off!
Rock on with your bad-self.
So we have that really cool guy who is a badass Wizard who has been to Hell, Heaven and went back to tell the tale and is afraid of nothing.
That guy is a HUUUUUUUGE Groupie of that dude and thinks that guy is so into doing the right stuff and doing it so cool that he is willing to give up whatever he has been doing to join him on his adventures without getting any share of the loot or any payment at all. Just to be with him and help him with his glorious adventures.Now Mr. badass Wizard asks his most loyal person to please make a Headband of Vast Intellect +2 for the Cleric so he the Cleric has ranks in a skill your group REALLY needs in order to be more successful. Which is a group he is a member of, too. He is now with them for YEARS without getting ANYTHING for it and he knows it is pretty much essential for the survival out there in the harsh world to be as much powered up as you can be. If you are not you can end up unlucky, just like the myriads of other groups before you, and cease to exist in the next big battle to come. And if the group dies he will die, too.
Nobody will be there to resurrect him, because the Cleric just died as well. Unlike the times before when he was unlucky and got a killing blow and the Cleric just had his Breath of Life ready to get him back on the bright side of existence he will just be dead. Permanently. Even worse their mission will fail and everything that is at stake will perish with them. Probably thousands of innocents will die.
.
Yeah you got me here. He has no reason at all to help the buddy of the guy he adores so much that he works for him for free.
.
.
.
Btw.: Didn't you read my posts? I would NEVER use the powerhouse of a Cohort that bad and make him a magic item crafting gimp that can do nothing besides making shiny items.
...lots of crap about how a high-level party member needs a price break and by God the other character's cohort should be happily presenting his services at half-price...
Cry me a river; now pay the man.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
wrote lots of crap about how a high-level party member needs a price break and by God the other character's cohort should be happily presenting his services at half-price...Cry me a river; now pay the man.
How is he in for the money if the group has collected several MILLIONS worth in loot while he was with them and he never wanted even one gp?
They probably even were only able to get all that loot because he constantly helped them...And I don't wanna nitpick. But the dude in the group is creating an item and selling it to someone else. Wouldn't that mean half price because he is selling the stuff he just made?
Can I make my Cohort create items and then sell them off for the full price to random people, too? And since he doesn't want any money the group makes he will surely even give it to me for free?
Even if he keeps the money he makes with it it means for every day I let him work he will make 500gp. So after a few month he will surely have a lot of fancy equipment I don't have to pay!
And I don't wanna nitpick. But the dude in the group is creating an item and selling it to someone else. Wouldn't that mean half price because he is selling the stuff he just made?
So his time is worth nothing? Because that's what you're saying here. You're saying that the cohort's time is worth a big, fat, zero. I disagree and that goes back to the whole self-worth thing that I was talking about earlier.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And I don't wanna nitpick. But the dude in the group is creating an item and selling it to someone else. Wouldn't that mean half price because he is selling the stuff he just made?So his time is worth nothing? Because that's what you're saying here. You're saying that the cohort's time is worth a big, fat, zero. I disagree and that goes back to the whole self-worth thing that I was talking about earlier.
Kingmaker campaign:
I get the Cohort at level 7 and keep him until the last book is finished. It takes YEARS.How much money did he get during those YEARS of devoted service?
Well... 0.
So yes, his time is effectively worth NOTHING.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Cohort: 8d8(first HD full)+8*con+8*1(fav class)" - Alienfreak
The first hit die at maximum value only applies to PCs.
(Official FAQ 9/3/10) Creatures whose first Hit Die is from a PC-appropriate character class gain max hit points for that Hit Die. The current list of PC-appropriate character classes is alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, and wizard (including archetypes, subclasses, and other variants of these classes).
And I don't wanna nitpick. But the dude in the group is creating an item and selling it to someone else. Wouldn't that mean half price because he is selling the stuff he just made?So his time is worth nothing? Because that's what you're saying here. You're saying that the cohort's time is worth a big, fat, zero. I disagree and that goes back to the whole self-worth thing that I was talking about earlier.Kingmaker campaign:
I get the Cohort at level 7 and keep him until the last book is finished. It takes YEARS.
How much money did he get during those YEARS of devoted service?Well... 0.
So yes, his time is effectively worth NOTHING.
Then I submit, humbly even, that you're doing it wrong. I'm very familiar with the exact situation that you're describing (cohort in Kingmaker) and I can tell you that it is a perfect setting for a crafty magical cohort. You get lots of down-time and magic item availability is much less than in previous AP's. That crafty cohort should be rolling in the dough from all those full-priced magic items he's making for the rest of the party. He should be taking half down for materials and the rest upon delivery.
/ edit: 'course he may need all that gnosh to buy the things he needs, that he can't make. ;)
And I don't wanna nitpick. But the dude in the group is creating an item and selling it to someone else. Wouldn't that mean half price because he is selling the stuff he just made?So his time is worth nothing? Because that's what you're saying here. You're saying that the cohort's time is worth a big, fat, zero. I disagree and that goes back to the whole self-worth thing that I was talking about earlier.Kingmaker campaign:
I get the Cohort at level 7 and keep him until the last book is finished. It takes YEARS.
How much money did he get during those YEARS of devoted service?Well... 0.
So yes, his time is effectively worth NOTHING.Then I submit, humbly even, that you're doing it wrong. I'm very familiar with the exact situation that you're describing (cohort in Kingmaker) and I can tell you that it is a perfect setting for a crafty magical cohort. You get lots of down-time and magic item availability is much less than in previous AP's. That crafty cohort should be rolling in the dough from all those full-priced magic items he's making for the rest of the party. He should be taking half down for materials and the rest upon delivery.
So assuming 25% of my party's wealth is made up by items crafted for them by that guy we are looking at a lot of gp. That means he has made a personal 46,500gp.
Assuming he spend about half that money in non combat assets (a house, drugs, blackjack, hookers...) and half the money in combat assets because he plans to survive those TOUGH encounters after all which does kill the other squishy cohorts so often (and he is dead jealous of all those shiny items all the other dudes impress the ladies with).Since he is my personal crafting b1tch he can create all magic items himself meaning that we will see about only 60% cost for items he has (he still has to buy the base items...).
So it means he has 38,750gp worth of items.
And I don't have to give him even one bit one my valuable 62,000gp item wealth!!! He is now only 23k behind the 10th level PCs and even overwealth for a PC of his level. Not even mentioning the NPC table!!!!111
If I ever play in your group I will love you for making my Cohort that kickass. Seriously.
Ah, my mistake. Thank you for pointing that out.
Although the hobgoblin fighter 1 has "hp 11 (1d10+5)". The errata corrects this to "hp 12 (1d10+7)".
You mean right after the Half-Celestial Unicorn that smites evil for ONE ATTACK?
:)
...a bunch of stuff that featured lots of random numbers...
Thinking about the cohort I've seen in action, he's far less productive than you might think. The crafting rules don't make things quite so easy-peasy. There are level and time constraints and hell, the poor guy just can't seem to stay alive (he used to ride into battle, ON the back of the Duc's horse no less.)
I mean, though, 'cause you're so uber and all, your cohort would probably have more money based on the lack of having to res and the like.
Back on track, Leadership isn't broken. But if you treat it in a "fire and forget" manner, it can easily be abused by the player (many times unwittingly.) Biggest thing to keep in mind is that it is just a Feat, not another character in the party.
|
The only time a DM of mine has allowed Leadership, he grinned evilly and said "but of course you'll have to do the recruiting" implying that other than the passive choice from a select group of NPC's he'd let me interview, i get very little say as to who I end up working for me. Knowing my DM, the cohort will either be utterly mad, or a secret mole working for some antagonist for some side quest done to mock our hubris for attempting to outmaneuver the DM in such a simplistic fashion...
Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.
He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.
They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.
You mean the really old lazy diplomatic "DM will fix it approach"? Yeah.
But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.
Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?That's not the same thing. One is purely a mechanical benefit the other is a complete creature with a mind of its own who has actually chosen to follow the PC. There isn't anything that suggests that the PC should be able to create and control the NPC. It can easily be read as "you attract an NPC that already exists in the game to be a loyal follower."
This is also why I suggested using the SSG's Bullet Points: Leadership. It addresses the problems the OP is having while still giving the players what they want.
So a Animal Companion or (Improved) Familiar is not a creature with a mind of its own?
Both an Cohort as an AC or Familiar are pure mechanical benefits.
The familiar works differently than the animal companion. Note that those with animal companions need to train them and use Handle Animal checks to control them. So there you go. Not all class features or feats are in complete control of the player.
The only time a DM of mine has allowed Leadership, he grinned evilly and said "but of course you'll have to do the recruiting" implying that other than the passive choice from a select group of NPC's he'd let me interview, i get very little say as to who I end up working for me. Knowing my DM, the cohort will either be utterly mad, or a secret mole working for some antagonist for some side quest done to mock our hubris for attempting to outmaneuver the DM in such a simplistic fashion...
I don't go that far. The player tells me what kind of person he's looking for and gives me ideas for class and skills and overall purpose. After that, we build the cohort together and it is introduced into the game as the story permits.
I know, totally controlling... :: rolls eyes ::
By the way: Where is it stated that a DM controls ALL NPCs? Probably I just overlook that passage but I just can't find it.
Do you really take away the control of the Familiar of your Wizard from him as DM? Because he is a NPC? Do you really take away the control of the Animal Cohort of the Druid because it is a NPC?
The GM controls all Non-Player Characters. The players control all the Player Characters. It's the definition of NPC and PC.
If you want to know where I got that from, check out your Core Rule Book. You can also find it here.
And no matter who controls it. It still is still a LOYAL Cohort who will do almost everything you want from him because he is your LOYAL guy after all.
They are loyal companions. They aren't mindless slaves. Are you loyal to your friends? Do you do everything they tell you? Nope. Neither will the cohorts.
Most people aren't advocating not allowing the player to have a cohort that can craft. They are saying that this NPC will not be a mindless automaton that will just do whatever the player wants. He can be influenced, but he isn't a factory.
Most people aren't advocating not allowing the player to have a cohort that can craft. They are saying that this NPC will not be a mindless automaton that will just do whatever the player wants. He can be influenced, but he isn't a factory.
I'll add that if the cohort is to be a [magic item] factory (as time, level, and market need dictate), he needs to be duly compensated for his work (meaning full price for Master's friends.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll admit to having a Cleric cohort who has Brew Potion, which is used for the benefit of the followers she leads, and Craft Wand so that she can heal said followers without having to fill her spell preparation with cures (she's an evil cleric, so no spontaneous cures). All part of her duties as castellan -- castellaine? -- keeping the fortress and its defenders in order and ready to Give Their All in service to, well, me...
Mind you, I bankroll her potion and wand making, and she gets a hefty cut of taxes from my fief, because she runs it, really, most of the time. So she's maintained in style, has de facto authority over my holdings, and has the respect and fear of those she commands. She also has a good deal of influence on me, as spiritual advisor: she's a priest of the god I worship. As I'm not a divine caster, nor any kind of divine, when she tells me 'God wants you to do (x)' I listen.
My GM doesn't misuse her spiritual authority, or even use it heavily very often. But she is my pipeline to Hell, so every now and again I end up going someplace unpleasant and fighting people I'd rather never have met on her say-so. My cohort is often the 'hook' for an adventure, and I don't mind. Likewise, my GM doesn't mind that my followers have a better-than-average chance of having a potion or two to make their jobs easier. Or lives longer, whatever.
I guess I've been pretty lucky with my gaming groups and GMs; we've played together for years, and have a pretty comprehensive grasp of what works and how viz-a-viz our little game world.
Those two crafting feats are the only ones I thought about giving my cohort, because I wouldn't snag more than a couple of 'em, myself. Scribe Scroll's free (for wizards), I might get Craft Wand at fifth level as a bonus feat (depending on the campaign -- the guy with the above-mentioned cohort went with Extend Spell @ 5th). After that, MAYBE one more craft feat... Wondrous Item or Ring in all likelihood. But I wouldn't get more than that, and I wouldn't expect an up-and-coming NPC to do so, either... even someone destined to be a cohort.
Here's something my GM did for my character in a game. It's a good twist of the leadership feat into it's own plot device.
I asked him for an alchemy business, so main cohort was a high lvl alchemist that was to be my second in command, followed by a handful of lower lvl alchemists to work in the labs.
Everything was fine and dandy, I even hired a quirky gnome engineer to design a new airship schematic from some advance stuff my guy stole from a genius pirate. Long story short, the guy who I thought was my main cohort and buddy ran off with all of my airship plans because he was part of the pirate crew in disguise to get them back. My main cohort actually turned out to be the gnome. Added to that is a lvl 0 sorceror newborn and a half cloud-dragon blink dog security friend/pet, it makes for fun times in the lab.
My character then talked to his adventuring buddies to get his group working again so they could go to the other country the guy fled to and get the plans back. Other things happened after since we couldn't get to him right away but it evolved into a full blown side-quest and possible campaign section.
So that wizard of yours might just decide that he has other motives :p
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I talked to my player with the cohort, and we resolved the issue peacefully. We're going to remake the cohort so that she's less broken. The player understood where I was coming from when I explained that cohorts are NPC's and that the GM has final say when it comes down to it.
As far as your argument (alienfreak) of a GM not controlling Familiars and animal companions, I agree that they shouldn't be controlled during combat...but their personalities and behavior outside of combat are up the GM, given that they are NPC's in the world.
But I'm getting off topic. Regardless, you guys really helped me out so that the whole situation was resolved easily. Thank you!
See the guy with Leadership in the campaign I GM has complained that it is setting him broke. All those mouths to feed, all the cost of providing for their care and shelter, all that equipment to furbish them with so their NPC WBL is maintained. He's got an army that just keeps on growing!
Similarly he needs to keep them occupied and safe.
Yeah.
All that is his problem.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The familiar works differently than the animal companion. Note that those with animal companions need to train them and use Handle Animal checks to control them. So there you go. Not all class features or feats are in complete control of the player.Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.
He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.
They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.
You mean the really old lazy diplomatic "DM will fix it approach"? Yeah.
But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.
Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?That's not the same thing. One is purely a mechanical benefit the other is a complete creature with a mind of its own who has actually chosen to follow the PC. There isn't anything that suggests that the PC should be able to create and control the NPC. It can easily be read as "you attract an NPC that already exists in the game to be a loyal follower."
This is also why I suggested using the SSG's Bullet Points: Leadership. It addresses the problems the OP is having while still giving the players what they want.
So a Animal Companion or (Improved) Familiar is not a creature with a mind of its own?
Both an Cohort as an AC or Familiar are pure mechanical benefits.
4th HD ability up on Intelligence or a headband of vast intellect +2 (he now even got a new skill...cool).
He now is a sentient creature, speaks one language, can take any feat or skill he wants.No more handle animals or training. Just tell him what you want him to do.
Doesn't EVERY druid out there do it like this?
And now where is the difference between a Familiar and an AC again? Maybe the AC is a bit less intelligent, sure. But I fail to see the vast difference in what they are.
Quote:
And no matter who controls it. It still is still a LOYAL Cohort who will do almost everything you want from him because he is your LOYAL guy after all.
They are loyal companions. They aren't mindless slaves. Are you loyal to your friends? Do you do everything they tell you? Nope. Neither will the cohorts.Most people aren't advocating not allowing the player to have a cohort that can craft. They are saying that this NPC will not be a mindless automaton that will just do whatever the player wants. He can be influenced, but he isn't a factory.
You are forgetting a major part here. My friends are just my friends. Friends give back each other as much as they take.
A Cohort is somebody that devotes his life to me. Works for me for free. Fights for me for free. Dies for me for free.
He gives up everything he knows. Family. Friends. Maybe his Girlfriend. Just to be with me and help me with my adventures. For free.
And now here I stand as a fool and even helped my friend's dad in his business sometimes if he got a big order that he can't handle alone.
Is he my friend? Nope. So why am I helping him? Is my time worth nothing? Do I have no self-esteem? Nope. Maybe its not as obvious to Hardwurster as it is to others but: helping people your friend likes and stands close to on the plea of a friend is just the same as helping this friend personally.
In all your Hardwursten you turn back your own argument on yourself by not having the person behave like a person would behave in a position like his and turn them into GM Machines and justify everything with GOOD ROLEPLAYING (the good old hit it with a stick and show it you are superior) argument.
Here's something my GM did for my character in a game. It's a good twist of the leadership feat into it's own plot device.
I asked him for an alchemy business, so main cohort was a high lvl alchemist that was to be my second in command, followed by a handful of lower lvl alchemists to work in the labs.
Everything was fine and dandy, I even hired a quirky gnome engineer to design a new airship schematic from some advance stuff my guy stole from a genius pirate. Long story short, the guy who I thought was my main cohort and buddy ran off with all of my airship plans because he was part of the pirate crew in disguise to get them back. My main cohort actually turned out to be the gnome. Added to that is a lvl 0 sorceror newborn and a half cloud-dragon blink dog security friend/pet, it makes for fun times in the lab.
The next time you attack someone or cast a spell on him insist that you deal 1000d10 damage.
Why? WHY NOT!And your Weapon Focus now give +5 on attacks! Why? WHY NOT!
If your DM doesn't stick to the rules, why should you?
I mean all that blabla about LOYAL cohorts and DEVOTED followers. Surly someone devoted and loyal can just as well be a mole, an assassin killing you in the sleep, a polymorphed Cornugon, a pirate stealing off your property...
I can't possibly see this contradict with DEVOTED and LOYAL.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only time a DM of mine has allowed Leadership, he grinned evilly and said "but of course you'll have to do the recruiting" implying that other than the passive choice from a select group of NPC's he'd let me interview, i get very little say as to who I end up working for me. Knowing my DM, the cohort will either be utterly mad, or a secret mole working for some antagonist for some side quest done to mock our hubris for attempting to outmaneuver the DM in such a simplistic fashion...
Just the same as your Weapon Focus strangles you in the night.
Or your Animal Companion is secretly working for the BBEG and will coup de grace you in the sleep.
Getting Coup de Graced by a Tiger/T-Rex? That will definatly hurt.
Why can't I be that smart and come up with such GREAT and GAME IMPROVING ideas?
Seriously alienfrak, grab some pills from the bottle labeled "chill" and take them.
Seriously alienfrak, grab some pills from the bottle labeled "chill" and take them.
Huh? I think you yet have to see me upset.
A Cohort is somebody that devotes his life to me. Works for me for free. Fights for me for free. Dies for me for free.
He gives up everything he knows. Family. Friends. Maybe his Girlfriend. Just to be with me and help me with my adventures. For free.
For man on a RAW mission, you sure are missing the boat and pushing the edge of reason as well. There is nothing in Leadership that says the Cohorts works for free.
@ Shifty - the Duc's Gnome Wizard has been quite the money-pit for all the reasons you were talking about. Taking care of a cohort costs money, man.
4th HD ability up on Intelligence or a headband of vast intellect +2 (he now even got a new skill...cool).
He now is a sentient creature, speaks one language, can take any feat or skill he wants.
No more handle animals or training. Just tell him what you want him to do.
Animals have 2 + int mod skills, therefore a 3 int companion has a -4 modifier and does not get an extra skill. He would need at least 10 int to get a second skill point.
Secondly although he is a intelligent animal the faq from awhile back clarrified that
The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.
So make sure you keep handle animal invested
4th HD ability up on Intelligence or a headband of vast intellect +2 (he now even got a new skill...cool).
He now is a sentient creature, speaks one language, can take any feat or skill he wants.
No more handle animals or training. Just tell him what you want him to do.Animals have 2 + int mod skills, therefore a 3 int companion has a -4 modifier and does not get an extra skill. He would need at least 10 int to get a second skill point.
A Headband of Vast Intellect ALWAYS gives a skill with ranks equal to your HD.
Secondly although he is a intelligent animal the faq from awhile back clarrified that
So make sure you keep handle animal invested
The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.
I ignore this FAQ because it is utterly dumb and creates more problems than it solves.
A sentient being is sentient.
With a Headband of Vast Intellect +6 your AC can even become more intelligent than your human Fighter (for humans with 2+int Intelligence is the main dumb stat).
Also what happens if your animal when it gets cast on with an Awaken Spell rolls a 3 on int. And you have another animal that also has 3 int.
Whats the difference here except the type. Right it will INSTANTLY know how to open doors. You can have a perfectly fine human who has never seen a door and he won't know how to open it with the key. Its not a matter of intelligence but of KNOWLEDGE.
If I tell an sentient being which even understands my language that it should attack person A it does NEVER involve a handle animal check. Because it can think on its own and understands what it is told.
Also the excuse with SUDDENLY learns a language is lame. What happens at a level up and I suddenly decide to have learned celestial as a fighter? It is safe to assume that everything that happens instantly at leveling up was more of a constant process leading to that point.
Its just another thing Paizo screwed up and now tries to hastily cover up. And they again won't succeed ;). The only thing they make is opening up a new front of what a skill/feat does now obviously depends on your type.
In my eyes a 3 int creature which was not raised as humans were could of course not do many things you can. And nobody says they should.
Your 3 int Tiger won't become a diplomat or can go to work for you as a weapon smith (though he could still take the skill for having it as a proficiency and then he do it again...). But the things you expect of adventurers are real no brainers. Like attack that dude. Stop that guy. Come back. Flank him. Help me. Grapple him. Guard this place. Search for hiding people. Block that entrance...
.
.
This sounds like another UNDEADZ ARE ZOOOO EVIL Odyssey to me. Paizo should stop try being a bunch of Philosophs. It only leads to them looking dumb. Like the last time they did it they couldn't stop at the Undead but continued forward ;)
This is how I run leadership:
The feat doesn't exist. If the story calls for a cohort to accompany the party, an NPC will join in but nobody spends a feat. If the party accumulates followers, that's done by hiring them, not by spending any feats.
I might go with this approach to it. Feat slots are a limited resource, after all.
First of all, leadership is a powerful feat that must be allowed by a GM into the game. Player-DM One on one time is pretty much essential. The rules are somewhat indistinct (but clearer than many areas of the game) and rightly so. However, that means that the question you ask is entirely campaign dependant.
This is how I would run the feat in terms of consequence:
1) Stay-at-home cohorts don't earn XP; what was once an awesome 5th level cohort at 7th level is now an annoyingly inadequate draw on resources at 9th: you must clothe, feed, and house him, as well as paying for his equipment etc, if he gets to keep anything; a cohort who is unfulfilled might ask for pay.
2) A cohort has to want to follow the PC. Calculate the leadership score for maximum level; apply any relevant negative modifiers, and perhaps apply some others. (Cohort or followers are commanded to work without pay -2, Cohort has not spoken to PC within 7 days -1, Cohort has opposed alignment -1, etc) Eventually an unhappy cohort might just lose interest in the PC or prioritize some other cause; especially if the new leadership score is no longer high enough to support a cohort of that level. This is not punishment for player action. This is consequence of character action. You can't abuse people and expect them to like it.
3) The PC would have to attract a new cohort (taking months or years to do so considering the rarity of an all-crafting wizard of appropriate level and alignment; maybe a 1% chance per week? DM: "Still no wizards at all, but these fighters want to join your cause, and they think you're just great!") The process could become great campaign fodder. The wider the PC sets his scope, the easier it will be to attract a follower of his alignment.
On the other hand, cohorts that go adventuring are continuously filled with good things to say about their leaders; they participate in the action so they get XP (at a reduced rate, but enough to keep them current): that is, I think, the intended use, to have someone who follows you into battle and to help change the tide of history. Leadership could be called "Sidekick + Friends"...
As for the whole "Pyramid Scheme" thing, that's how pathfinder deals with building a kingdom. This is how you get thousands of followers, and form a town. It's awesome when you do get the chain going; there is always a strong support network for the party and at that rate there are bound to be a few all-crafty types, or some crafters with the cooperative crafting feat. The competitions to have the highest leadership scores are often amusing. PCs trying to convince their followers of their DM-arbitrated "special powers" etc.
But that's my campaign...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As DM, I LOVE the Leadership feat. I would never ban it, and in some cases have all but handed it to players.
I like when the players get more involved in the world-building and continuing-story aspects of the game. I like when they take hand in things other than just saying "Hurp durp, here's my PC, now tell me what to do." I want them to be active contributors, not passive recipients.
Leadership is an awesome feat for players who also want those things. And by keeping it a feat, it remains their choice, meaning I don't shove it down people's throats who -- for whatever reason -- decide they don't have the time, creativity, and/or desire to deal with all that extra work.
Leadership is a win-win scenario, as long as you think of the players as adding to the ongoing collaborative story, rather than as destroying your pre-written story. From that standpoint, I don't ever want to punish them for taking Leadership. I want to kiss them for it.
Seems more of an abuse of magic item creation feats.
Personally if it was me I'd have the cohort charge full price for his work. If the PC doesn't like the cohort would just leave and I'd apply a -2 penalty to the Leadership score for treating cohorts as slaves.
but they remain people with their own hopes, and dreams.
...Sorry, I keep reading that as "they remain MY slaves, rather than the stupid players'! Mwahahahahahah!" I know that's not how you mean it, but that's how I see it.
|
Leadership has always been a flavor booster too me, now if someone tries the pyramid scheme than they are pushing it a little far. But getting a crafting wizard?
Totally Fine, expect thieves to come a knocking. Not out of DM spite mind you but you have built a wizard devoted to crafting powerful, expensive and easily fenced magic items and left them guarded by a bunch of low level followers. Also by the time your 7th level you've usually caught the attention of those who wish you harm or to stifle your continued growth.
It seriously has never mattered what you build as the game is evolved enough to take care of those problems in a mature manner.
Also if some DM's are not able to handle/dislike/ban it then Whatever thats how they want to play there game. However I love Kirth's approach and another poster who played leadership off as his followers/Seneschal running his fiefdom while he was out traveling. Those are great ways to look at leadership.
Right now my Followers are my personal army until I establish a stronghold and then they will become my Kingdom Defenders. Fun Rp opportunities abound at least IMO. :)