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Only one rebuild, or rebuilds between each scenario until the PC hits 3rd level?
I like the idea of one rebuild. Limiting it to before level 2 dose not give you allot of game time. To see how the build will play out. For new players they might not even see how things play out. Until they are run in different types of scenarios. This should be a one time rebuild for one player not one rebuild for each character. I'll go on to say the rebuild should be limited to changing none core things about your character. This will limited the abuse of the rebuilding and let it help new players get a better idea of what, and how the game works. With out being stuck in a character they do not like.
IMO What you should not be able to change. As this keeps the character the same with just a few changes.
1: Race
2: Class (Allow for retraining of archetypes. And other class features if there are options you pick from. IE: Rogue talents, Oracle Revelations, and Sorcerer Bloodlines.)
3: Faction (The faction missions should not be why you chose a faction. It is more for character back ground than on going story plot. As the faction missions change.)
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So... is anyone opposed to this idea?
I'm for it, but not for the reason(s) I've seen given.
Me? I think it should be the 'Law' because it's what people are going to do anyway. Either willfully or out of ignorance.
It'll be healthier for PFS as a whole if it's simply legal.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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What do people think if we allow rebuilds while your character is level 1? This would allow new players to try out their character, get a game or two under their belt to see if it falls under what heir character concept is, and then settle on their final build before they hit 2nd level.
One of the reasons a rebuild option, only while first level, would be considered is because local game days usually offers two games in one day. Having new players frantically rebuilding a pregen into a regular character in the too-short break between games is not advantageous to creating a solid character concept. It also allows the player who attends a 3slot/day event to rebuild after the day is done.
I will not even consider retraining or rebuilding a character after 1st level, so please do not argue those points. This topic is only about retraining a first level character before it advances to 2nd level.
I have come to this party late, and will admit to reading the OP and going no further. So, having not read the prior 54 posts: I don't see the harm in this. Kids show up to "see what it's like" and often build characters that are horribly crippled, or that don't work even close to the way they thought it would. Or, new players show up with traits/feats/items that don't do what they think.
Imagine, for instance, a new player purchasing a 1st printing of The Adventurer's Armory and gleefully building a character around the Heirloom Weapon trait, playing an adventure or two with it, then finding out that the trait is completely different during his third game. "Too bad, dude. No changing it out." We'd likely lose that player. Just because all of us read these boards religiously doesn't mean that everyone else does (or even that the majority of PFS players do).
Caveat: if I come back to this thread after the weekend and read really good arguments against, I'll retract my support. I just can't think of anything that would sway me, right now.
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I like the idea of retraining before 2nd level.
Also, on a related subject, I like the idea of retraining a feat or class choice at higher levels by spending Prestige points. Something like 12 PP allows you to retrain a Feat. 15 PP allows you to retrain a class feature if it doesn't mess up anything else. Traits, and alternate racial traits as they are traits, are not retrainable.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
It sounds like most people agree this is a good idea.
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Here are some specific suggestions for implementation.
Do not add any additional paperwork, such as any sort
of rebuild chronicle. We have enough paperwork already.
The "new player" target audience might be overwhelmed.
Provide clear guidelines on what can be changed or not.
Examples include: name, faction, race, class, abilities.
Also make it clear how to swap equipment for a rebuild.
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I am all for rebuilding early.
Many classes offer a special perk at level 2. For that reason, I think it odd you do not want people to see how that perk works before making a final design.
Some may cheat the system by playing a ftr or bbn at level 1 only to then switch to a wiz or sor but I am willing to deal with that. Those types of casters would not deserve the respect of surviving from the get go. That would be enough justice for me.
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Just want to add my voice to the throng of support for this idea. Often, an idea will look good on paper, but the concept will fall short in actual play. And it is a way for inexperienced players to try out something, then go home and study the rules.
I have a 1st level inquisitor that could use a little adjustment, too.
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Let me be the first to admit what I am going to write now are not going to be liked by anyone least of all by Micheal.
And let's get it clear I feel the idea is fine however unrealistic.
This is why: (be ready to flame the messenger)
We all have our characters, some make them in a hurry others spend days planing and developing, building and enjoying every little detail of the creation time. We run off to play a great PFS event and we realize the character just are not what the paper suggested. With the current rules its just plainly too bad. Nothing to do about it. But as Micheal suggest use level 1 to play test the character would be smart.
But frankly what is the difference in reality. We all have 100 access to our sheets no one carries a copy and everyone can change tiny bits and piece no one would ever know but yourself. Cheating YES no doubt, doable without consequence since no one can keep track of it, happening I am sure it does from time to time.
So why implement a rule that basically only eliminate the "illegal" thoughts of the action. Should it be have a serious effect then everyone should have their character stored with stats, abilities, feats, items etc stored on some server. That automatically close down for certain updates after level 1.
But with the current setup : I have my own sheet. Its pretty much impossible to handle.
Having said that I am all in for it in theory just believe there are probably more useful changed MB could use his valuable time on!
Oh yes one final thing : I am NOT telling people to cheat in anyway shape or form, just being darn realistic about the case.
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I am very much in favor of this! Thank Michael for asking us.
Here in Charleston almost everyone is new to PFS. Our gaming groups are dedicated and we are growing.
This change legally brings the possiblity of players to correct mistakes, try new possibilites and feel much less stress about their first few games.
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This seems like a "no brainer" to me...and easily justified with a little bit of role play. "I joined the Pathfinders as a Fighter and during my first mission I was filled by the spirit of Gorum" or "My companions remarked about my amazing singing voice!" or "I was on the brink of death and an immense arcane power was awakened within me!"
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So why implement a rule that basically only eliminate the "illegal" thoughts of the action. Should it be have a serious effect then everyone should have their character stored with stats, abilities, feats, items etc stored on some server. That automatically close down for certain updates after level 1.
to foster the ability in we players, old and new alike, who would not consider doing this even if no one ever found out.
also, illustrating a time period in which you can "legally" make changes enforces the idea that you should not be making changes later, even if no one ever finds out.
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Wanted to bump this to see if there's any news on if/when this might be implemented.
If it's something that's going to go through, is there any chance it could be implemented via FAQ/blog instead of waiting for the next version of the Guide?
Campaign wide changes are reserved for the Guide. The FAQ is reserved for when we want to clarify rulings and the like. Allowing this fits into the campaign wide change.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Campaign wide changes are reserved for the Guide. The FAQ is reserved for when we want to clarify rulings and the like. Allowing this fits into the campaign wide change.Wanted to bump this to see if there's any news on if/when this might be implemented.
If it's something that's going to go through, is there any chance it could be implemented via FAQ/blog instead of waiting for the next version of the Guide?
Makes sense. Still makes me sad, though: I built a rogue a few months back, played him twice, then decided he needed tweaking. So I started over with a fresh number, and now that slot is sitting there, with two wasted chronicles, unloved. :(
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I'm in favor.
But maybe allow rebuilding only once, and inbetween scenarios, but before the character's first scenario as a 2nd level character. Thus, the last chance would be after the character's third experience point.
It reminds me of Skyrim's and Oblivion's (and maybe others') mechanic where upon exiting the first dungeon you are met with a dialogue box asking whether or not you wish to continue with your current character or change practically anything.
It might feel weird to some, but especially at conventions it'd be a huge help to say "you may rebuild your character once before it hits 2nd level".
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Campaign wide changes are reserved for the Guide. The FAQ is reserved for when we want to clarify rulings and the like. Allowing this fits into the campaign wide change.Wanted to bump this to see if there's any news on if/when this might be implemented.
If it's something that's going to go through, is there any chance it could be implemented via FAQ/blog instead of waiting for the next version of the Guide?
Please consider a 4.1.1 then instead of waiting until GenCon and 4.2. Adding a few small, short, easy changes like this hopefully would take less than an hour to update.
So with that in mind, since most most posters thinks this is a good idea, let's help Mike out. How do you think this should be worded for the Guide?
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Having just started playing PFS, and wishing (after one adventure) that I'd rolled a Pally instead of a Battle Oracle, I'd love for this to be implemented sooner than later. If it's not, chances are that I'll just roll the Pally anyway, and just be one scenario behind the rest of my party.
It's unfortunate that I'd have to do that, especially with this being considered and seemingly being unanimously loved. But, you know, that's the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.
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I'm completely in favour of this, both for selfish and unselfish reasons. I've seen players who don't know how an ability goes, and I've also seen players who have their first character created by a friend of theirs who obviously had no idea what he was doing (a halfling rogue with 10 con, 14 dexterity, 17 intellect and the childlike feat?!).
The selfish reason is that I have a master summoner who I have played only once and have no desire to ever play again. It would be nice to be able to make something of him rather than just throw out the character sheet and chronicle.
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...and I've also seen players who have their first character created by a friend of theirs who obviously had no idea what he was doing (a halfling rogue with 10 con, 14 dexterity, 17 intellect and the childlike feat?!).
I've seen a 1st level halfling sorcerer, who had Reduce Person and Jump as his first spells.
Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West
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I think this is a great idea. It is quite common for new players, or even experienced players, to make characters that don' t quite work the way they were invisaged when in play. I support this concept...the sooner the better :). Please don't wait til Gencon.
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I'm in favor.
But maybe allow rebuilding only once, and inbetween scenarios, but before the character's first scenario as a 2nd level character. Thus, the last chance would be after the character's third experience point.
Agreed, but if you're playing a sanctioned module and have played one session before that? First session problem doesn't come up, but at the end of session 2 of 9 hours they have four games on paper but actually two in reality.
It should be phrased in such a way that the character will get to make changes before they play a session as a second level character.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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This recently got linked so I saw it for the first time, and decided to necro it a bit.
Voting in favor of level 1 reskins. A lot of my new players just do what their friends tell them to, then around the third game make new characters because they don't like what their friends do. This would make that process less painful for the newbies.
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Having followed this thread the first time around, it seems like one of the most universally-supported ideas I've seen. I'm hoping that means good odds of it getting put into the new Guide when it comes out. :D
Hmm Jiggy, I thought everybody agreeing on an idea meant it would be too much work for the Paizo staff... :Þ
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A downloadable Chronicle sheet that denotes a rebuild HAS occurred, noting major changes such as name, race, class/archetype, and traits would probably be a good way to track it.
A dedicated Chronicle sheet would not work for this. Not by itself, anyway. It'd be as simple as just throwing the sheet away to circumvent its use.
However, there already is a place for this. If I were a wagering person, I'd say for the scenario the new character played. A simple notation of "Rebuild," followed by race and class, written in pen and initialed by the GM. Better yet, the player could be required to keep the old character sheet with a big X through it to make sure she doesn't switch back on a whim if the name and faction don't change.
Coupling these two things, one could easily verify that the player is using the proper character build.
Only one rebuild, or rebuilds between each scenario until the PC hits 3rd level?
I'm torn between one and up to three, actually. If it's one, it should not include a pregen for the first scenario. This would give the player an opportunity to jump in as well as respec after his second OR third scenario.
But I think only until level 2. So either immediately after any of the first three scenarios or any one of the first three.
Also, are we talking about everything but the character number? Are we talking about keeping the name? What about the faction?
Why not everything? Faction goals, history and alignment all play their part in character history and thus roleplaying. And I'd say there's also something to be said about how disconnecting it can be to have the right character with an ill-fitting name. I have a player whose character is named Dr. Vitruvian. If this player had the ability to change classes and wanted to go with something else... such as a Barbarian... I think you see what I mean. Sure, it might make for good roleplay—for some—but who knows whether this player would like that kind of comic relief name.
IMO What you should not be able to change. As this keeps the character the same with just a few changes.
1: Race
2: Class (Allow for retraining of archetypes. And other class features if there are options you pick from. IE: Rogue talents, Oracle Revelations, and Sorcerer Bloodlines.)
3: Faction (The faction missions should not be why you chose a faction. It is more for character back ground than on going story plot. As the faction missions change.)
Why should the character have to remain the same? PFS isn't necessarily a home game where you're sure to see the same player time and time again, and it's definitely not a system that the GM has to remember every player's name after the table ends, let alone her character's race, class or faction. I say let a player of a first-level character try out another class, race or faction without penalty. There's more of a chance they'll find the one they really like.
And after all that: It might become important for GMs and coordinators to make sure players know that they don't have to have only one character, and that they shouldn't respec just to fill the well-balanced party. We should already be telling them the first part. First of all, it's good for them to have a variety of characters to choose from, even if they still have their favorite(s). Second of all... it gives them a reason to want more material, and whether they buy it from Paizo or from their FLGS, players wanting more material is good for Paizo and it goes without saying that that being good for Paizo is good for Pathfinder Society, too.
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This is a fantastic idea!
I Would suggest going a step further and allowing them to switch factions until they hit lvl 2 as well. (keeping any faction points gained with the respective factions). The session or two of different faction missions will help you decide if you really like playing Quadira or Cheliax, etc. It also saves you since some faction missions are especially hard for certain character concepts, but many players don;t know that until they try it a few times.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I Would suggest going a step further and allowing them to switch factions until they hit lvl 2 as well. (keeping any faction points gained with the respective factions).
Agreed.
How many times have you heard this from newer PFS players after handing out faction missions:
"Wait, I have to kill this dude? I thought the Andorens were the good guys!"
I approve wholeheartedly when it comes to Level 1 retraining. I would also say include level 2: 0 XP, since a lot of people go with First Steps as their... first steps into PFS and allowing level 1 retraining when they're going to hit 2 is kinda... Yeah.
Basically, that is part of what Mike and Mark are asking: whether you can do a retrain anytime before playing that first scenario as a 2nd level character. From Mike's original post:
It also allows the player who attends a 3slot/day event to rebuild after the day is done.
So you have your 3 XP, you are looking at your 2nd level options, you realize you do not like what you have done with your character, and you rebuild/retrain. So long as you do not start that 4th scenario, you are good to rebuild.
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I approve wholeheartedly when it comes to Level 1 retraining. I would also say include level 2: 0 XP, since a lot of people go with First Steps as their... first steps into PFS and allowing level 1 retraining when they're going to hit 2 is kinda... Yeah.Basically, that is part of what Mike and Mark are asking: whether you can do a retrain anytime before playing that first scenario as a 2nd level character. From Mike's original post:
It also allows the player who attends a 3slot/day event to rebuild after the day is done.So you have your 3 XP, you are looking at your 2nd level options, you realize you do not like what you have done with your character, and you rebuild/retrain. So long as you do not start that 4th scenario, you are good to rebuild.
Ah, right. I admit I glossed over bits, heh. Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, I agree even MORE wholeheartedly.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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hoping this comes out soon...
This wouldn't be implemented until the new version of the Guide, which if I understand correctly is going to coincide with GenCon, and if memory serves that's in August.
So assuming Mike's still wanting to do this, anticipate timing in that ballpark. :)