Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Furthermore, from the design perspective, we just did not want to play in a world with Magus, from a power perspective, nor gunslingers, from a role-play perspective. (Not sure if Gunslingers are overpowered or not. Wouldn't surprise me, but can't bring myself to read the class.)
I'd think they are. Currently I've got three low-level PFS characters - a Gunslinger, a Trip/Stomp Monk, and a Magus. I see the fact that these can all be pretty overpowering as an opportunity to take one or two levels of a different class to mould the character to fit a concept; even if I give up one or two levels of straight advancement I can still end up with a character that can contribute to an adventuring party.
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I had noticed that the new players felt frustrated with their first character build after playing at a table with a "uber-optimized" PC, often abandoning the character they wanted to play for one that seems "more effective"... in essence, a "uber-powered" character of their own.
This is ALWAYS going to be the case, especially if the GM doesn't help them build a PC. This is the case even when no one is powergaming! It's too bad that someone would want to switch classes, but it happens.
Sometimes it happens because people just don't know what they want from the game initially. People new to roleplaying (or PF), see a new class and want to switch because they like it better.
Sometimes it happens because they want to fill a role in the party. (I have someone wanting to switch from Ranger to Cleric now. It's annoying, especially since I know she doesn't want to play the Cleric.)
And sometimes it happens because every scenario is about combat and DPR and nothing else (except maybe Perception checks). OBVIOUSLY, everyone wants to make a PC good at DPR, if the game is all about combat. What I'm saying is that a lot of the fault lies in the scenario design.
Those players with "20/7" characters take away from the fun of a more balanced character, and, ultimately, make that player fell like they have "failed" at making a character, since yours is always going to seem better... even if it is only in one area (i.e combat, skill checks, etc.)
If you think that having an 18/7 ruins the game, I'm really surprised because they get a small boost for a major weakness. The difference between 18 and 16 is ... +1. It's not game breaking. Perhaps the class/feats are game breaking, but +1 is not.
With few exceptions, I'd say every class has strengths and weaknesses, there's no need for anyone to EVER switch characters. In other words, you don't need 4 DPR classes, you probably need someone with skills, spells, or ranged attacks. Having too much of any one thing usually won't work out all of the time. And if that's not true, it's bad scenario design. End of story.
Fyi, all scenarios I've seen so far in season 3 are doing a fine job of mixing it up, and having something for everyone to do. I guess the problem is that a lot of people are still playing scenarios from seasons 0-2.
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Furthermore, from the design perspective, we just did not want to play in a world with Magus, from a power perspective, nor gunslingers, from a role-play perspective. (Not sure if Gunslingers are overpowered or not. Wouldn't surprise me, but can't bring myself to read the class.)
Bottom line: Couldn't stand to play a game with Power Shot, Magus, Create Pit, etc. Don't like to see PCs ruining combats with them, and don't like to have to use them on PCs as a DM.
Okay, in order: Magus is overpowered, just like Barbarian, Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, etc., in those circumstances that they can nova.
As a PC, if they nova too soon, they are not gonna be the big nasty for the rest of the time. As an NPC, unfortunately, they are going to be going nova, just like any ofg the other classes would, and that may make them seem overpowered. YMMV.
Gunslingers, on being role-play sinks, is purely up to how the player runs them. If they decide to run them as Billy the Kid, no one would find them appealing. If they do some research on the area of the world they are from, and build a personality with that in mind, I wouldn't see any RP issues. Again, YMMV.
What the heck is Power Shot? I am assuming it is supposed to be one of the archery feats, given the name, but I don't recall it, honestly. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Clustered Shots, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, none of them are really game-breaking, and most of them are strongly required to make an archer a feasible option, instead of a waste of time.
Magus? No more so than a Barbarian. Heck, a good Strength Fighter with Sunder/Improved Sunder/Greater Sunder and a +4 Adamantine weapon can "break" an encounter.
And on Create Pit? Really? You find that game-breaking? And not Invisibility, Glitterdust, Grease, Magic Missile, Create Water, Detect Magic, Fly, Inflight Serious Wounds, etc.? By the time it can be nasty from being deep enough to do significant damage, the target is going to have a good enough Reflex save that it probably won't affect them.
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Perhaps your experience differs from mine (you have been playing PFS longer than me), but the closest things I've seen to "broken" characters have been extremely straightforward:
• The 18+ STR Power Attack greatsword guy
• The 18+ INT Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus wizard (or sorcerer of the same sort, but with epic Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate to boot)
• The... wait, actually, those are consistently the most powerful types of characters I see.
The 2hPA types consistently face-plant with big Xs in their eyes due to crappy AC (we both know a certain local player whose barbarian is (in)famous for croaking four times in three levels). INT-maxed GSF wizards have a ball until something grabs them and stuffs them down their gullet; a round of acid and crushing, and they're done.
Yet all anyone remembers is the "power creep", not the extra times they died in which, say, a dwarf axe-n-tower fighter, or high-CON gnome teleportation specialist, would easily survive those respective encounters.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I agree some people can put together killer builds. I remember people talking about this with D&D ed 2. My 2nd game had 2 Barbarians, they were normal barbarians and they kicked butt. I had the pregen Valeros and I sucked in combat. Lots of bad rolls. The Roleplaying was good and we completed our mission.
I am a new PFS player and don't have all of the books. I can really use a Power build character. I will be at level 1. The next Game Con has adventures for level 1-7. I think a strong character would be helpful.
I don't know if this is the proper place but I could use a fighter who uses a longbow and long sword.
Try making a thread in the Advice section. I'm sure you'll get lots of help. :)
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I just went around asking people what they thought were mechanically weak characters lately and have been looking for ways to optimise them.
At the moment im building a Str based Sorc/Dragon Disciple, primarily working on blasting, and maximising his physical stats for combat (he will be using UM/APG/CRB only), my only issue with him is at level 1 he is too strong for me to feel ok playing him in most parties (I do 4d6+4 damage on shocking grasp)
You could always play him with my monk. He would appreciate all the help he can get Michael... You know him well.
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Our perceptions of what constitutes optimized are, IMO, severely distorted to maximum DPR builds of realistically dubious worth.
I.e., the Power Attacking barbarian who can split the moon in half but needs 100pts worth of healing after finishing a three-round combat is considered "over-powered", while the dwarf tank with Combat Expertise who slowly but reliably motors through every combat while taking nary a scratch isn't.
By the numbers, said dwarf is much more "over-powered" versus CR -- but nobody complains because he isn't flashy.
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Hey hey hey, I'm bringing a wizard/cleric going for MT. There will be healing. Halfling healing of awesomeness. Well... Maybe not.
He will however be more than willing to help out.
For broken characters, I say let them play. It's part of organized play, if you want your 20 str, 14 dex, 16 con 7 int/wis/cha melee monster of death, I'm more than happy to bring in my monk that couldn't hit a 5' square or my cleric who is all about the heals.
Having fun is the goal and I find I have more fun playing an interesting concept in PFS that I probably wouldn't have tried in a home game. Which means when someone has a combat ending machine, I get more fun role playing and rolling horribly.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I have never seen a crazy high DPR character get out damage by the enemy. Secondly, if the DPR guy ends it in his first charge, then there will be a lot less damage to heal for the whole party. And high AC is stopped by saves. High damage is stopped by...dying.out damage a character? LOL! all the time. I'm often running the guy having to patch the glass cannon back up (after every fight). or we'd have a deader ever fight.
Locally there's a barbarian (greatsword-wielding, named Durnst) who's infamous for his four deaths (so far!), to whom I believe Mike Schneider was referring.
Also, just yesterday I was in a scenario in which the AC29 HP81 tank kept getting hit with bite/claw/claw/rend/heat (the very creature from which Kyle Baird gets his avatar - that alone scared us). Very nearly died, and that was with a 7th level Kyra pregen on hand. Meanwhile, the enemy had all kinds of DR and resistances and LOTS of HP. Durnst would've died in a few rounds.
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Yeah, my Invulnerable Rager barbarian finally needed Raging Vitality to save his butt yesterday for the first time. He's level 7 in a tier 7-8 adventure, and he dished out plenty of damage, but he took more than 100 points damage in the final fight (despite my DR). In the end, it was the paladin with an insane AC who never got hit who finished the bad guy off, with a little help from the rest of the group, while my barbarian sat on the floor drinking cure potions for 3 rounds in the middle of the fight.
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Yeah, my Invulnerable Rager barbarian finally needed Raging Vitality to save his butt yesterday for the first time. He's level 7 in a tier 7-8 adventure, and he dished out plenty of damage, but he took more than 100 points damage in the final fight (despite my DR). In the end, it was the paladin with an insane AC who never got hit who finished the bad guy off, with a little help from the rest of the group, while my barbarian sat on the floor drinking cure potions for 3 rounds in the middle of the fight.
Just for the record- the Paladin was the target of the big bad on the surprise round and was pummeled for forty something hit points in one round while flat-footed. But true, her AC is very high- especially when smiting.
I switched targets to the Barbarian once it became obvious he is landing much larger hits than the Paladin- making him a much more clear threat to the big bad. Its very rare that he (Barbarian) goes down due to his much higher HP total compared to the rest of the party... but highly buffed monster was dishing it pretty good and had no problem hitting the Barbarian (needed a 2 to hit, I think).